Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The folly of projecting group-stereotype guilt and the present kairos

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The kairos concept is, in a nutshell, that there are seasons in life and in community, so that there are times that are opportune or even simply pivotal and trend-making. At such times, we are forced to decide, for good or ill. And yes, carry on with business as usual . . . especially on a manifest march of folly . . . is a [collective, power-balance driven] decision; ill advised though it may be:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

More formally:

With that in mind, I now draw attention to Chenyuan Snider’s expose of some of the more terrifying Red Guard-like group-guilt, stereotyping and scapegoating tactics of the totalitarian government she grew up under; here, targetting a particularly revered group in historic, Confucius- influenced Chinese culture, teachers. Let me excerpt to highlight the power dynamics at work:

Mrs Chenyuan Snider, Artist and Teacher

When I was a first grader, there was a new political movement initiated by the Communist Party in China – the anti-teacher movement. It was precipitated by a tragic incident in which a student in China’s remote countryside attempted suicide because of mistreatment by her teacher. Overnight, all teachers in China were considered evil by virtue of being teachers. As students, we were ordered by the authorities to write about our teachers’ unscrupulous behavior towards us. It was mandatory. Every student had to write a condemnation about their own teacher on a poster and paste it on the wall. The bigger the poster and the longer the criticism, the holier the student became. In other words, the more a teacher was vilified, the more righteous the student appeared. There was no time for anyone to process and digest the new situation because it came like a huge wave engulfing everyone. During my time growing up in China, there were several movements during which one group was set up against another. These movements had proven to be enormously effective for the communist government to consolidate power. In the process, enemies were eliminated . . . .

Throughout history, wherever there are humans, there is injustice. However, when events are interpreted not as the fault of individuals, but rather, as a fault of a certain group, it creates hostility between large numbers of people. Through propaganda and political correctness one group can claim ascendant status over another. But this does not resolve the issues. In reality, tension from both sides continues to build up and intensify, which in turn produces more injustice and opposition. The justice that is due to the true victim is often buried in the larger struggle between groups. In the end, the victim is used as a prop serving the purpose of fighting the opposition.

This is of course reflective of the common folly of projecting blame or disdain to race, class, age [or want of age], sex, profession, honest occupation or the like. Surely, we can agree with the apostles and prophets that we partake of the common grace of life, sharing a common Imago Dei.

However, as a civilisation, we now face a recrudescence of one of the worst plagues afflicting our civilisation over the past quarter-millennium, [neo-]Marxism. Here, in a plethora of manifestations of so-called Critical Theories, more accurately: cultural form, mutant Marxism.

Let’s excerpt SEP, to see a self-congratulatory, programmatic self-description (on the way to urgently needed critique):

“Critical Theory” in the narrow sense designates several generations of German philosophers and social theorists in the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School. According to these theorists, a “critical” theory may be distinguished from a “traditional” theory according to a specific practical purpose: a theory is critical to the extent that it seeks human “emancipation from slavery”, acts as a “liberating … influence”, and works “to create a world which satisfies the needs and powers” of human beings (Horkheimer 1972, 246). Because such theories aim to explain and transform all the circumstances that enslave human beings, many “critical theories” in the broader sense have been developed. They have emerged in connection with the many social movements that identify varied dimensions of the domination of human beings in modern societies. In both the broad and the narrow senses, however, a critical theory provides the descriptive and normative bases for social inquiry aimed at decreasing domination and increasing freedom in all their forms.

Critical Theory in the narrow sense has had many different aspects and quite distinct historical phases that cross several generations, from the effective start of the Institute for Social Research in the years 1929–1930, which saw the arrival of the Frankfurt School philosophers and an inaugural lecture by Horkheimer, to the present. Its distinctiveness as a philosophical approach that extends to ethics, political philosophy, and the philosophy of history is most apparent when considered in light of the history of the philosophy of the social sciences. Critical Theorists have long sought to distinguish their aims, methods, theories, and forms of explanation from standard understandings in both the natural and the social sciences. Instead, they have claimed that social inquiry ought to combine rather than separate the poles of philosophy and the social sciences: explanation and understanding, structure and agency, regularity and normativity. Such an approach, Critical Theorists argue, permits their enterprise to be practical in a distinctively moral (rather than instrumental) sense. They do not merely seek to provide the means to achieve some independent goal, but rather (as in Horkheimer’s famous definition mentioned above) seek “human emancipation” in circumstances of domination and oppression. This normative task cannot be accomplished apart from the interplay between philosophy and social science through interdisciplinary empirical social research (Horkheimer 1993). While Critical Theory is often thought of narrowly as referring to the Frankfurt School that begins with Horkheimer and Adorno and stretches to Marcuse and Habermas, any philosophical approach with similar practical aims could be called a “critical theory,” including feminism, critical race theory, and some forms of post-colonial criticism . . . .

It follows from Horkheimer’s definition that a critical theory is adequate only if it meets three criteria: it must be explanatory, practical, and normative, all at the same time. That is, it must explain what is wrong with current social reality, identify the actors to change it, and provide both clear norms for criticism and achievable practical goals for social transformation.

That ever so humble but sometimes inadvertently revealing crowd-source, Wikipedia, gives somewhat less subtly shielded details:

Critical theory is the reflective assessment and critique of society and culture to reveal and challenge power structures. It argues that social problems are influenced and created more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors. Critical theory has origins in sociology and also in literary criticism. The sociologist Max Horkheimer described a theory as critical insofar as it seeks “to liberate human beings from the circumstances that enslave them”.[1]

In sociology and political philosophy, the term Critical Theory describes the Western Marxist philosophy of the Frankfurt School, which was developed in Germany in the 1930s. This use of the term requires proper noun capitalization,[citation needed] whereas “a critical theory” or “a critical social theory” may have similar elements of thought, but does not stress the intellectual lineage specific to the Frankfurt School. Frankfurt School critical theorists drew on the critical methods of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud. Critical theory maintains that ideology is the principal obstacle to human liberation.[2] Critical theory was established as a school of thought primarily by the Frankfurt School theoreticians Herbert Marcuse, Theodor Adorno, Max Horkheimer, Walter Benjamin, and Erich Fromm. Modern critical theory has additionally been influenced by György Lukács and Antonio Gramsci, as well as the second generation Frankfurt School scholars, notably Jürgen Habermas. In Habermas’s work, critical theory transcended its theoretical roots in German idealism and progressed closer to American pragmatism. Concern for social “base and superstructure” is one of the remaining Marxist philosophical concepts in much of contemporary critical theory.[3]

Postmodern [–> thus, current] critical theory analyzes the fragmentation of cultural identities in order to challenge modernist era constructs such as metanarratives, rationality and universal truths, while politicizing social problems “by situating them in historical and cultural contexts, to implicate themselves in the process of collecting and analyzing data, and to relativize their findings”.[4]

Ironically, the “metanarrative” of Western, white male domination and the heroic effort to overthrow it is, of course, an obvious self-referentially incoherent element in all this. And, as we saw from Ms Snider, once sociopathic radical ideologues use this metanarrative to target those whom they wish to turn into scapegoats, the door yawns to group guilt on core characteristics that are genetic or so shaped by one’s life story as to be key to one’s identity, leading to terrifying injustice through agit prop, media amplification of street theatre, media lynch mobs, lawfare, show trials and oh so convenient “progressive” solutions.

If such does not ring true, it should.

Now, several years ago, here at UD, I put on the table an alternative framework for political spectra, informed by historical trends and linked factors on modern liberty and constitutional, democratic self-government through elected representatives:

U/d b for clarity, nb Nil

It seems to me, that this is a useful framework to speak to some ugly trends of our time that are not without relevance to the marginalising, stereotyping, slandering, expelling and scapegoating of supporters of Intelligent Design. But then, it — more significantly — speaks far more broadly.

The natural state of humanity is tyranny, or at most some degree of lawfulness under a somewhat fair-minded governing elite. The antithesis to that is the raw, untamed wilderness, the “dark and bloody ground” of the so-called state of nature. That description, is how Kentucky (then a mutually agreed hunting grounds of the tribes) was described to one Daniel Boone, by Amerindians. Such a state is so abhorrent, so prone to naked theft, murder and rapine, that it is a repeller-pole that drives communities towards the vortex of tyranny. From which, historically, as a rule one only escapes by rivers of blood and tears.

In my considered opinion, it was only as the rise of moveable-type print coupled to a religious ferment emphasising freedom of conscience and individual accountability before God, that the unstable but sustainable middle ground emerged. Between 1450 and 1650, the groundwork for democratising reforms with due buttressing from key community institutions enabled the rise of modern, elected representative, parliamentary democracy constrained not only by a tradition-bound corpus of law, but by explicit Constitutions pivoting crucially on Bills of Rights articulated on built-in, conscience attested principles of natural law. I should add, interestingly, all of these happened in lands that acceded to Christian Civilisation and which had a significantly Germanic cultural base with its emphasis on freedom, thus consent to legitimate rule.

Where, let us recall, some core theses:

Thus, as we see in Augustine’s and Aquinas’ reflections:

Where, we may see Aquinas’ theme of a naturally evident, intelligible (so, sound conscience attested), creation-order based framework for civil law and for reformation:

We still hear an echo of this in the concept of crimes that shock the conscience. Such crimes can be done by some brigand hiding in a cave, but they can also be done by those in positions of lawful power or even some who pose as liberators. Crimes can even be done under false colours of law or rights and even that of processes of justice, through lawfare.

In my considered view, the ongoing abortion holocaust of our living posterity in the womb . . . 800+ millions in 40+ years and mounting up by another better part of a million per week [statistics suggests 1.4 billion] . . . is a capital, utterly civilisation corrupting example.

Litmus Test: if one cannot pass the test of standing up for the unborn, further claims to be a champion of liberation of the oppressed can be disregarded.

However, in our day, the toxic brew we face is compounded by a widespread rejection of the natural law vision with its pivot on sound conscience sensitive to truth, duty, justice. I here point to legal positivism and the nihilism that crouches at the door.

Again, SEP is subtly veiled, but enough sticks out that we can pick up hints as to the lurking reefs of a graveyard of ships of state:

Legal positivism is the thesis that the existence and content of law depends on social facts and not on its merits. The English jurist John Austin (1790–1859) formulated it thus:

>>The existence of law is one thing; its merit and demerit another. Whether it be or be not is one enquiry; whether it be or be not conformable to an assumed standard, is a different enquiry. (1832 [1995: 157]) >>

The positivist thesis does not say that law’s merits are unintelligible, unimportant, or peripheral to the philosophy of law. It says that they do not determine whether laws or legal systems exist. Whether a society has a legal system depends on the presence of certain structures of governance, not on the extent to which it satisfies ideals of justice, democracy, or the rule of law. What laws are in force in that system depends on what social standards its officials recognize as authoritative; for example, legislative enactments, judicial decisions, or social customs. The fact that a policy would be just, wise, efficient, or prudent is never sufficient reason for thinking that it is actually the law, and the fact that it is unjust, unwise, inefficient or imprudent is never sufficient reason for doubting it. According to positivism, law is a matter of what has been posited (ordered, decided, practiced, tolerated, etc.). Austin thought the thesis “simple and glaring”. While it is probably the dominant view among analytically inclined philosophers of law, it is also the subject of competing interpretations together with persistent criticisms and misunderstandings.

Wikipedia is again inadvertently more frank and tellingly revealing:

Legal positivism is a school of thought of analytical jurisprudence developed largely by legal philosophers during the 18th and 19th centuries, such as Jeremy Bentham and John Austin. While Bentham and Austin developed legal positivist theory, empiricism provided the theoretical basis for such developments to occur. The most prominent legal positivist writer in English has been H. L. A. Hart, who, in 1958, found common usages of “positivism” as applied to law to include the contentions that:

— laws are commands of human beings;

— there is not any necessary relation between law and morality, that is, between law as it is and as it ought to be;

— analysis (or study of the meaning) of legal concepts is worthwhile and is to be distinguished from history or sociology of law, as well as from criticism or appraisal of law, for example with regard to its moral value or to its social aims or functions;

— a legal system is a closed, logical system in which correct decisions can be deduced from predetermined legal rules without reference to social considerations;

— moral judgments, unlike statements of fact, cannot be established or defended by rational argument, evidence, or proof (“noncognitivism” in ethics).[1]

Historically, legal positivism is in opposition to natural law’s theories of jurisprudence, with particular disagreement surrounding the natural lawyer’s claim that there is a necessary connection between law and morality.

Got that? As in, “moral judgments, unlike statements of fact, cannot be established or defended by rational argument, evidence, or proof.”

Thus, then, “legal positivism is in opposition to natural law’s theories of jurisprudence, with particular disagreement surrounding the natural lawyer’s claim that there is a necessary connection between law and morality.”

Morality and justice, having been banished to the realms of irrationality, law is severed from the premise of morality, thus, justice. Nihilism — raw, untrammelled will to power (tempered only by cunning calculation as to what one can get away with, or cannot YET get away with) crouches at the door.

Enter, stage left, the sociopath with power or hoping to gain power; even under the guise of righting grave wrongs and liberating the oppressed. (And we need not detain ourselves on cheap agit prop stunts of turnabout projection as to who is oppressor. All polities are prone to injustices, the issue is to keep open a path to sound reformation.)

Destination, tyranny and the ruinous march of angry fools following a demonically anointed false political messiah:

Reformation is indicated, in defence of our civilisation.

As a start-point, we must recognise certain inescapable first principles and duties of reason that not only pervade but actually govern all of our rationality. Pace the legal positivists, morality is central to rationality and is itself rational, pivoting on self-evident first principles.

How can we — in an age blighted by selective hyperskepticism sitting in the seat of proper prudence — have confidence in such?

Simple, the very one who objects to such principles, inevitably, inescapably, implicitly, ALWAYS appeals to our intuitive adherence to such first duties of reason. So, we may freely hold that what is inescapably bound up in our rational life is just as inescapably, manifestly, necessarily, self-evidently true.

Where, of course, I here speak of our inescapable first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice, etc.

Epictetus gives us a classic demonstration in a nutshell:

DISCOURSES
CHAPTER XXV

How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Cf J. C. Wright]

Let the legal positivist or critical theorist object rationally and responsibly without implicitly relying on such, if he can: _______ . We confidently, freely hold that he cannot do so.

On this, we may go down the line of asking what sort of reality root must obtain, in a world of such rationally, morally governed creatures. There is no serious answer to that, but that that root is the inherently good, utterly wise source of worlds. A familiar figure, but we need not explore that side, other than to note that the rise of both so called legal positivism and cultural marxism trace to the rise of atheism as a mass movement. First, among intellectual classes then more widely as ideologies dressed up in lab coats took root and seized cultural high ground.

That is significant, as it implies that needed reform has to challenge such intellectual roots and correct such ideologies. Which brings us to the general relevance of a useful but sometimes controversial mapping exercise:

You tell me that this model — originally tracing to the circle, Bill Bright, Loren Cunningham and Francis Schaeffer 40+ years past — does not capture a good slice of the issue. I think, we can freely use it as a map . . . which is not the territory but if well made, a helpful guide to it. (I suggest, using it in two modes: one, as a map of high ground dominating community life with seven metaphorical hills to match the famous seven hills of Rome; two, as a temple with seven columns that support and are in turn protected by a common roof.)

So, we can clearly see elements of the witches’ brew and storm that has begun to break across our civilisation in this, The Year of Our Lord, 2020, MMXX.

We have to challenge worldviews and cultural agendas, exposing Overton Window power games:

(Who would have thought that significant voices in a leading power in our day, would irresponsibly call for “defunding the police” in the context of a case where one officer . . . on evidence, likely for good reason . . . faces Murder 1 charges and three juniors face only slightly lesser charges? That, shocks both mind and conscience. Yes, reform the police is always a legitimate issue, defunding them would only trigger snap-back to the vortex of tyranny. If you needed evidence of a fourth generation, agit prop, media manipulation and lawfare driven, so far low kinetic civil war in that power, there it is. A voyage of folly is ruinous as the ghosts of Socrates, Plato and even Alcibiades would jointly warn.)

However, the issue is far wider and deeper than current political and police follies. Reformation is what is needed, and that has to engage worldviews roots. Such as, turtles all the way down being impossible:

“Turtles, all the way down . . . ” vs a root cause

Let us consider how we get to worldview root level, first plausible framework faith points:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

In this context, rebalancing how we consume mass and nowadays social media will be necessary also — as one of our very first steps:

Similarly, it is clear that cultural marxism and legal positivism cannot make the grade. So, it is time for serious re-thinking towards sound reformation. Otherwise, shipwreck. END

PS: Notice how street protesters in DC added to the BLM street slogan put up by the Mayor:

In broad daylight:

WASHINGTON, DC – JUNE 08: People walk down 16th street after ‚ÄúDefund The Police‚Äù was painted on the street near the White House on June 08, 2020 in Washington, DC. After days of protests in DC over the death of George Floyd, DC Mayor Muriel Bowser has renamed that section of 16th street “Black Lives Matter Plaza”. (Photo by Tasos Katopodis/Getty Images)

The platform:

PPS: Warlordism and “protection” demands emerge in Seattle WA, USA — anarchy is a repeller pole that tends to push communities to the vortex of tyranny:

PPPS: The monument to fallen police officers that was recently vandalised:

And, after repeated vandalisation this is the statue of the man who warned against appeasing Herr Schicklegruber and Co. then led Britain’s lonely stand with backs to the wall in 1940. Yes, Sir Winston Spencer Churchill, in London:

Comments
JAD, You are one of the more level-headed people here, IMHO. Have you considered putting up some OPs of your own?daveS
June 19, 2020
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KF, Why are you associating me with RP? I have not been engaging him. I have no interest in engaging him. I only engage people who are able to use logic and reason to make logically valid arguments. What he said @ 315 is not an argument, it’s a contemptuous cheap shot. If this was my blog it would have been deleted. There should be no place for disdainful and disruptive behavior. I have said this before: please stop enabling bad behavior. It’s unfair to people who are here in good faith.john_a_designer
June 19, 2020
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RP & JaD, I believe we are now in the presence of inescapable, thus self evident truth regarding duty. That is, accurate description of moral reality, moral truth. Not, insipid platitudes but pivotal governing principles that, more than one, have transformed the path of civilisation for the good. Where, we neglect such at peril. I therefore invite us to take some time to discuss what actually transcends "the basic obligations for the functioning of society," as they are in material part constitutive of a society of responsibly, rationally, significantly free creatures. Where too, without such freedom, we are not even free enough to be logical, as a computational substrate is governed by GIGO, driven by dynamic-stochastic processes and the organisation of its components, not by understanding ground and consequent or inductive cogency, thus drawing responsible conclusions. Freedom is governed by ought freely chosen (or rejected) not by the force of a dynamic-stochastic is. Where, thirdly, as Math is the study of the logic of structure and quantity, without the seven listed first duties, we cannot do math either. So, it behooves us to study them and to assess their import for the nature of reality including ourselves and our cosmic context. KFkairosfocus
June 19, 2020
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RP & JaD: the issue of inescapable first duties of reason, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, to fairness and justice etc is decisive. Even the objector must implicitly recognise them in trying to object if his arguments are to have persuasive traction. From this all else flows. Let us see how. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2020
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LoL! @ RP- So because JAD speaks the truth about ID "critics", RP has a meltdown. Priceless...ET
June 17, 2020
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J a D i bet you have opinions about those damn kids on your lawn too.Retired Physicist
June 17, 2020
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The P.C. garbage, which is presently being crammed down EVERYONES throat, comes from SJW secular progressives not from Christians. The problem is that modern secular progressivism, which is the source of this garbage, has emerged out of a culture infested with moral relativism, subjectivism and nihilism. Those kind of beliefs provide absolutely no basis for any kind of viable interpersonal morality, human rights or the kind of cultural consensus which is absolutely essential to have any kind of functioning democratic society. Many of our regular interlocutors self-identify as moral subjectivists, which means they believe there is no such thing as moral truth. However, they never explain how you can resolve a moral or ethical debate if everyone is a moral subjectivist with his or her personal agenda. They also claim, very disingenuously in my opinion, that they are prodemocracy. They also sometimes talk about trying to reach some kind of consensus. But again, how can we reach any kind of consensus if everyone is a moral subjectivist with his or her personal agenda. This is another example of sawing off the limb one is sitting on. And, to add to the absurdity they are sawing it off on the trunk side. One of the basic obligations for the functioning of society is the obligation to be truthful and honest. Frankly I don’t think most our regular interlocutors are being truthful and honest. How can they be when they believe there is no moral or ethical obligation to be truthful and honest? Obligations must be based on moral standards that are true whether not everyone agrees that they are true. If there are no such standards there are no real moral obligations. In other words, so-called moral subjectivists have basis for morality because they have no moral obligations of any kind. Frankly then, they are not moral people. Their arguments are nothing more than rhetorically empty pretense and posturing. One has to ask why they bother to persist? I have no idea. Maybe one of them will tell us. But that would require them to be open, honest and transparent, something for which they have absolutely no basis. Humans, on the other hand, have something known as a moral conscience. However, a moral conscience is of no value unless there are objective moral values (moral truth.) Again how can we have a meaningful discussion or debate about morality unless both sides in the discussion can trust each other to be honest and truthful?john_a_designer
June 17, 2020
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Sev, Newton in his General Scholium to Principia:
. . . This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator , or Universal Ruler; for God is a relative word, and has a respect to servants; and Deity is the dominion of God not over his own body, as those imagine who fancy God to be the soul of the world, but over servants. The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect; but a being, however perfect, without dominion, cannot be said to be Lord God; for we say, my God, your God, the God of Israel, the God of Gods, and Lord of Lords; but we do not say, my Eternal, your Eternal, the Eternal of Israel, the Eternal of Gods; we do not say, my Infinite, or my Perfect: these are titles which have no respect to servants. The word God usually signifies Lord; but every lord is not a God. It is the dominion of a spiritual being which constitutes a God: a true, supreme, or imaginary dominion makes a true, supreme, or imaginary God. And from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present; and by existing always and every where, he constitutes duration and space. Since every particle of space is always, and every indivisible moment of duration is every where, certainly the Maker and Lord of all things cannot be never and no where. Every soul that has perception is, though in different times and in different organs of sense and motion, still the same indivisible person. There are given successive parts in duration, co-existent puts in space, but neither the one nor the other in the person of a man, or his thinking principle; and much less can they be found in the thinking substance of God. Every man, so far as he is a thing that has perception, is one and the same man during his whole life, in all and each of his organs of sense. God is the same God, always and every where. He is omnipresent not virtually only, but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved [i.e. cites Ac 17, where Paul evidently cites Cleanthes]; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [i.e accepts the cosmological argument to God.] Whence also he is all similar, all eye, all ear, all brain, all arm, all power to perceive, to understand, and to act; but in a manner not at all human, in a manner not at all corporeal, in a manner utterly unknown to us. As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things. He is utterly void of all body and bodily figure, and can therefore neither be seen, nor heard, or touched; nor ought he to be worshipped under the representation of any corporeal thing. [Cites Exod 20.] We have ideas of his attributes, but what the real substance of any thing is we know not. In bodies, we see only their figures and colours, we hear only the sounds, we touch only their outward surfaces, we smell only the smells, and taste the savours; but their inward substances are not to be known either by our senses, or by any reflex act of our minds: much less, then, have we any idea of the substance of God. We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [i.e from his designs]: we admire him for his perfections; but we reverence and adore him on account of his dominion: for we adore him as his servants; and a god without dominion, providence, and final causes, is nothing else but Fate and Nature. Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [That is, implicitly rejects chance, Plato's third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.] But, by way of allegory, God is said to see, to speak, to laugh, to love, to hate, to desire, to give, to receive, to rejoice, to be angry, to fight, to frame, to work, to build; for all our notions of God are taken from. the ways of mankind by a certain similitude, which, though not perfect, has some likeness, however. And thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearances of things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy. [General Scholium to Principia, paragraphs added.]
KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2020
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PPS: The latest absurdity is the demanded removal of police protective details at schools in Los Angeles, police who are there in part because of serious disciplinary issues and the known problem of mass murder targetting schools as target-rich inadequately protected zones. Clip:
A protest in downtown Los Angeles on Tuesday demanded that the Los Angeles School Police Department, which protects public schools from gang violence and mass shootings, be abolished. Last week, the United Teachers Los Angeles, the union representing teachers in the Los Angeles Unified School District, joined a Black Lives Matter demonstration to demand that the school police, a unionized workforce of fewer than 500 officers, be disbanded. That demonstration was followed Tuesday by a march to a school board meeting where the school police had not actually been on the agenda, as the Los Angeles Times reported: Hundreds of students, parents and community members gathered in front of a downtown L.A. high school Tuesday, calling for the elimination of the Los Angeles School Police Department, a force of about 470 officers and civilians. The rally and march began at Miguel Contreras Learning Complex, just west of downtown, and ended at the nearby school district headquarters during an L.A. Board of Education meeting. The future of school policing,however, was not on the posted agenda of the closed-door session. … Student speakers at the rally expressed pain and fear they experience from the school police presence and their frustration over the lack of much needed services. They also called for greater diversity among teachers. Thandiwe Abdullah, 16, a recent graduate of the Los Angeles Center for Enriched Studies, said “I hated my school,” and criticized the administration for assigning a white instructor to teach ethnic studies, for placing her in classes with only two Black teachers from middle school through high school, and for involving school police officers who made her feel criminalized, rather than a psychiatric social worker, when she needed support. The Times reported in February 2018 — before the infamous Parkland high school shooting later that month — that the Los Angeles School Police Department was an important part of preventing school shootings, and that schools were often safer than the neighborhoods around them as a result of the police force’s presence. Separately on Tuesday, members of the Los Angeles City Council introduced a motion to replace ordinary police with an unarmed crisis response team for “non-violent calls for service,” according to local Fox affiliate KTTV 11.
The chaotic irresponsibility is manifest.kairosfocus
June 17, 2020
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Folks, It is fairly obvious that there is a deep rooted gap between is and ought, and part of this is something persistently ignored by our circle of objectors: how do they expect us to be persuaded by arguments? (This is the key clue . . . and yes, the Japanese fisherman fiasco above is a case in point. [Do I need to point to the real case, the rape of Nanking? If what Japanese fishermen do defines what's right for them, then what Japanese or German etc soldiers did creates the same result.]) That is, why do these objectors hope or expect us to yield or at least be discredited in the eyes of onlookers? Apart from, we really do have certain duties which can be failed but still stand as oughts, as duties? Where, is it not the case that by definition the ought is what should be but may not become the actual is of what we do instead? Is not such a sign that moral government i/l/o duty is a reflection of genuine freedom of rational, responsible beings? But first, on the way to that, it is obvious that were reality nothing more than blind chance and mechanical necessity acting on a purely material substrate across time, there would be no basis for rationality and responsibility. Don't take my say-so for it, here is Dawkins on the point, having just appealed to the Malthusian fallacy of inevitable immiseration:
In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” [River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, p. 8 IIRC]
Given that rational argument inevitably appeals to first duties of reason (as will be drawn out a bit more below), this is already absurdly self-referentially incoherent and self-defeating. Indeed, there is no basis for even accounting for the functionally specific complex organisation and/or information beyond 500 - 1,000 bits in a computational substrate. Which, includes that there is no basis for accounting for the D/RNA and its functionality as alphanumeric, algorithmic code -- language -- in protein synthesis, thus the heart of cell based life. Evolutionary materialistic scientism with its a priori impositions on science and origins is a non-starter on accounting for life much less mind and even worse, moral government of rational, responsible creatures. Which is a premise for science. Now, to try to persuade us and onlookers, we can readily see that objectors invariably appeal to our known first duties of reason, which are inescapable. If you object to this claim, try to state an objection that does not implicitly pivot on known duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, to fairness and justice etc: ______ We can freely conclude that those blanks are not going to be filled. (So, the Wilsonian fallacy advocated in that textbook of manipulation, The Arte of Rhetorique, i.e. that fallacy of adroitly side-stepping the inconvenient will be predictably resorted to. That evasiveness is itself a strong sign of actual balance on the merits, here and in many other threads at UD as well as in the ongoing war against civilisation. Folly, thou art afoot and on the march.) This leads to the issue, what is a right, in the core sense. The answer comes back, a reasonable expectation and demand that others have certain duties of respect, first for life then for conscience, freedom, innocent reputation, legitimately acquired property etc, etc. All, duly informed by the implicit premise of the quasi-infinite worth and dignity of the individual human being. Thus, the civil peace of justice becomes the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities in community. An ought, not an is. An ideal, not a perfect attainment. (Which then exposes the fallacy of demanded perfection of a given community order, on pain of demanding to burn it down and impose a year zero reset, with predictable consequences of falling into a vortex of tyranny, as the OP brings up. Notice, again, evasiveness of objectors on this. As for those currently rioting, looting, burning and demanding abolition of lawful policing, the absurdity of their agenda is obvious.) All of this instantly raises the issue, whence that IS-OUGHT Gap, whence duty, whence moral government. We already know that evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers are non starters. Further to such, radical relativism and/or subjectivism are equally dead ends. For example, let me clip:
Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts. Some think that tolerance is entailed by cultural relativism. But there is no necessary connection between tolerance and the doctrine. Indeed, the cultural relativist cannot consistently advocate tolerance while maintaining his relativist standpoint. To advocate tolerance is to advocate an objective moral value. But if tolerance is an objective moral value, then cultural relativism must be false, because it says that there are no objective moral values. Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, that social reformers can never be morally right, that moral disagreements between individuals in the same culture amount to arguments over whether they disagree with their culture, that other cultures cannot be legitimately criticized, and that moral progress is impossible. Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude. It seems that any nonmoral facts will do, as long as they affect attitudes. Perhaps the most far-reaching implication of emotivism is that nothing is actually good or bad. There simply are no properties of goodness and badness. There is only the expression of favorable or unfavorable emotions or attitudes toward something.
Many popular views on morality instantly collapse, both at street level and in the academy. Unfortunately, such intellectual bankruptcy does not prevent them from leading our civilisation into ruin through media, court room, board room, cabinet room or parliament. So, can we discern actual universally valid rights, instead turns on, is there a built-in moral government pivoting on intelligible premises and principles? For, my right is a demand and expectation that you will carry out your duty. Rights and duties are duals, with freedoms as corollaries, leading to the understanding that justice duly balances the three. Where of course, in a conscience benumbed, sensualism-besotted age of ever-ratcheting addictions to more and more absurd evil, such will be at a steep discount. That's why the apostle is so cutting when he calls for a counter-culture response:
Eph 4: 17 So this I say, and solemnly affirm together with the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the [unbelieving] Gentiles live, in the futility of their minds [and in the foolishness and emptiness of their souls], 18 for their [moral] understanding is darkened and their reasoning is clouded; [they are] alienated and self-banished from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the [willful] ignorance and spiritual blindness that is [deep-seated] within them, because of the hardness and insensitivity of their heart. 19 And they, [the ungodly in their spiritual apathy], having become callous and unfeeling, have given themselves over [as prey] to unbridled sensuality, eagerly craving the practice of every kind of impurity [that their desires may demand]. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way! 21 If in fact you have [really] heard Him and have been taught by Him, just as truth is in Jesus [revealed in His life and personified in Him], 22 that, regarding your previous way of life, you put off your old self [completely discard your former nature], which is being corrupted through deceitful desires, 23 and be continually renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh, untarnished mental and spiritual attitude], 24 and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth [living in a way that expresses to God your gratitude for your salvation]. 25 Therefore, rejecting all falsehood [whether lying, defrauding, telling half-truths, spreading rumors, any such as these], speak truth each one with his neighbor . . . [AMP]
After nearly 2,000 years, that indictment stings as it bites home. KF PS: Those who are ever so quick to deride and dismiss the Christian gospel may find it useful to start here.kairosfocus
June 17, 2020
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Here’s a case of freedom of speech for me but not for thee.
Until recently, Tim [Gordon] was a theology teacher at a Catholic high school… His daughter, who had been suffering from relentless bouts of seizures, recently underwent a hemispherectomy, a rare form of neurosurgery in which a large portion of one of the brain’s hemispheres is removed. It is an expensive procedure, and Tim was fortunate to have insurance from the Catholic high school that employed him to defray some of those expenses… But after Tim said something unfashionable about Black Lives Matter in public, his employment at the school was swiftly terminated. No longer covered by the school’s insurance, his daughter’s expensive recovery would have to be financed out-of-pocket.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-firing-of-tim-gordon/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first Tim’s thought crime? Saying in a podcast that BLM was a terrorist organization… In other words, BLM has the right to accuse anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree with their agenda (especially if they're white) of being racist but no one has the right to criticize them? Coercion is a form of terrorism. Tim got that right.john_a_designer
June 16, 2020
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If you say, ‘according to my philosophical position, Japanese people can’t fish’, and someone shows you evidence of Japanese people fishing, and you say, ‘well yes, they may act like they’re fishing, but it’s not properly grounded fishing’, it’s not the Japanese people who are doing it wrong, it’s you.
So if someone says murdering is wrong and someone shows you someone else murdering and having a good time, and I say "well yeah, they may act like it's good, but it definitely isn't properly grounded good", are the murderers right and I'm wrong?ET
June 14, 2020
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and once more here is the refutation to Seversky's long winded, but empty, rebuttal:
Here is a short defense of all 16 predictions: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/i-finally-figured-out-tszs-motto/#comment-564709
Moreover, directly contrary to Seversky's assertion that science is a naturalistic/materialistic endeavor, the fact of the matter is that all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism. From the essential Christian presuppositions that undergird the founding of modern science itself, (namely that the universe is rational and that the minds of men, being made in the ‘image of God’, can dare understand that rationality), to the intelligent design of the scientific instruments and experiments themselves, to the logical and mathematical analysis of experimental results themselves, from top to bottom, science itself is certainly not to be considered a ‘natural’ endeavor of man. Not one scientific instrument would ever exist if men did not first intelligently design that scientific instrument. Not one test tube, microscope, telescope, spectroscope, or etc.. etc.., was ever found just laying around on a beach somewhere which was ‘naturally’ constructed by nature. Not one experimental result would ever be rationally analyzed since there would be no immaterial minds to rationally analyze the immaterial logic and immaterial mathematics that lay behind the intelligently designed experiments in the first place. Again, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism.bornagain77
June 14, 2020
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seversky:
Some Christian scholars have estimated the Universe to be just a few thousand years old based on passages from the Bible.
The earth, not the universe. And the Bible predicted the universe would have a beginning.
Consciousness is not observed to exist apart from a physical substrate.
You mean you won't accept the evidence that shows otherwise. Got it.
Both Newtonian mechanics and relativity are nat/mat theories.
Liar. Newton definitely states otherwise.
Nat/mat estimates concerning the prevalence of life in the universe vary considerably.
More lies. Nat. mat can't even account for the existence of any life. seversky is just another liar for materialism.ET
June 14, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
“Universal human rights” and “objective morality” are two cases in point. Even though all human experience and evidence points away from these, the truly faithful will twist logic until it fits their agenda.
Ed thinks cuz he can say it, it must be so. All human experience and evidence points towards an evolution of those rights and morality, from the universal and objective, to what we see today. Just because you are too dim to be able to assess the evidence doesn't mean anything.ET
June 14, 2020
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Bornagain77 @ 303
Contrary to your false and empty claim, I can actually produce “mountains of contradictory evidence” that your materialistic Darwinian worldview is false and that Theism is true.
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends..."
1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted time-space energy-matter always existed. Theism predicted time-space energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago.
If something< exists then, since you cannot get something from nothing, something must always have existed. The current age of the universe is estimated to be around 13.8 bn years. The Big Bang theory is the most widely-accepted theory of the origins of our Universe although there appears to be data which are calling it into question. Neither theism nor deism alone predict only the Christian creator God. There are many theistic and deistic faiths that incorporate creation/origins stories. Some Christian scholars have estimated the Universe to be just a few thousand years old based on passages from the Bible. That differs hugely from the current scientific estimate.
2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence.
Theism covers a number of faiths and denominations. Not all of them hold that God is sustaining the entire universe from second-to-second. Non-locality in quantum mechanics (a nat/mat theory) does not necessarily imply that the universe is dependent on something outside itself for continued existence. It is one possible interpretation but it may also be that they are evidence of an additional dimension to physical reality, something we do not observe in our everyday experience but still part of the natural order. It also implies that our everyday perceptions are but a partial representation of what is actually out there.
3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is an ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality.
Consciousness is not observed to exist apart from a physical substrate. A living brain exhibits consciousness, a dead brain does not. The signs of consciousness that were once exhibited by a dead brain have so far proven to be unrecoverable in all cases. Researchers are still arguing over how to understand the “observer effect” in quantum physics. It certainly doesn’t support the simplistic notion that consciousness is what holds reality together. It doesn't answer the obvious question which is that, if nothing exists until it is being observed, what is being observed in the first place? It also doesn't answer the next question which is why we all apparently observe the same thing when we look. If there are an infinite number of possible observations then when one person sees a red car why doesn't another person see a brown cow?
4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9)
Both Newtonian mechanics and relativity are nat/mat theories. None of the theistic faiths that I’m aware of make specific predictions about the rate at which time passes. Psalm 90:4 – “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.” refers to God’s perception of time. 2 Timothy 1:9 – “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” concerns salvation not time. And neither make any prediction concerning the speed of light.
5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of physics and chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for life like human life (R. Collins, M. Denton).
Observations and calculations have shown that, if certain fundamental physical (nat/mat) constants varied from their observed values by even a small amount, the universe in which we live could not exist. We live in a thin film of atmosphere on the surface of a planet that is partially shielded against threats from outside. Even within that shielding there are many things that are dangerous or lethal for human life. Outside the vast majority of this universe is unremittingly hostile to organic life such as ourselves. It is a huge and unwarranted leap of faith from those observations to the absurd conclusion that this entire universe was created just for us.
6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (Gonzalez).
Nat/mat estimates concerning the prevalence of life in the universe vary considerably. Our planet could be unique, not just “extremely unique” (is that like being ‘a bit pregnant’) in the sense that there is no other exactly like it that we know of. On the other hand, astronomers are finding plentiful evidence of planets around nearby stars so it’s certainly possible that there are other planets similar to Earth which bear life. Any theistic prediction that the Earth is unique as a home for life is in serious danger of being proved wrong.
7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geochemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photosynthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth.
Nat/mat observations find evidence of life stretching far into deep time, tailing off billions of years ago and completely at odds with a special creation event 6000 years back. One creation story - that of Christianity - refers to life appearing after water. Unfortunately, it also refers to day and night existing before light was created - just one of a number of inconsistencies in the faith.
8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD)
The simplest life found on earth so far is not necessarily the earliest life ever to appear on Earth. Its relative complexity does not contradict the hypothesis that much simpler forms existed earlier or support a claim that they were necessarily created by a god.
9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas.
The nat/mat theory of evolution predicted that the “unfolding” of life would proceed in small, incremental steps but allowed that the rate at which it could happen could vary considerably. The 20-25 mn year Cambrian Explosion was a period when it happened a lot more rapidly but there is evidence of life preceding it. It was not the original creation event described in Genesis.
10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. […]
Nat/mat theory holds that fossilization is a very rare event but even so transitional fossils have already been found. Theism makes no predictions whatsoever about the existence let alone the frequency of fossils, transitional or otherwise, in the geological record.
11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)–
It is estimated that new species are being discovered by science at the rate of 15000 – 20000 per year. The rate of speciation can vary hugely, new species of large animals taking hundreds of thousands of years to appear while new bacteria or viruses can emerge in just a few years. One study cataloged some 1400 human pathogens of which 87 were characterized as “novel” (now including COVID-19). If evolution occurs, there is no reason to think it has stopped now.
12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the separation of human intelligence from animal intelligence ‘is one of degree and not of kind’(C. Darwin). Theism predicted that we are made in the ‘image of God’- Despite an ‘explosion of research’ in this area over the last four decades, human beings alone are found to ‘mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities.’ (Tattersall; Schwartz). Moreover, both biological life and the universe itself are found to be ‘information theoretic’ in their foundational basis.
Imago dei is a Christian not just a theistic concept and its meaning is poorly-defined. Does it mean that God is a bipedal humanoid with a head, two arms, two legs, genitals, etc? Does it mean we resemble Him psychologically so He is also capable of rage, jealousy, vindictiveness? That, at least, would be consistent with some of His behavior as described in the Bible. "Information" appears to have become the modern-day equivalent of the "luminiferous aether". Treating it as some fundamental 'stuff' of which everything else is made is a misconception which commits the fallacy of reification or misplaced concreteness.
13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”.
Nat/mat still predicts that much of our DNA is ‘junk’. The ENCODE researchers were heavily criticized for overstating their case and using a far too elastic understanding of "function". Theism said nothing at all about the existence of DNA, let alone how much of it night be ‘junk’
14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford)
Nat/mat theory always held that more mutations were detrimental than beneficial if for no other reason than that there are many more ways for something to go wrong than to go right. With the advent of neutral theory, the majority of mutations are held to be neutral or nearly so, a much smaller number are detrimental and a much smaller number still are positively beneficial, all of that being dependent on circumstances. Detrimental mutations tend to be filtered out by evolution leaving the beneficial ones to proliferate. As noted before, theism made no predictions whatsoever concerning the existence of DNA, let alone the relative frequencies of neutral, detrimental or beneficial mutations.
15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe.
Nat/mat argues that there is no way to get from 'is' to 'ought', no way to derive moral prescriptions from our observations of material reality. So they can only be subjective, even if they come from a deity. . Theistic faiths simply argue that the morality dispensed by their chosen deity overrides all others. That doesn’t make it objective, just the subjective views of their chosen deity. The claim that morality is somehow embedded in our genes or in the fabric of the universe is an entirely unsubstantiated claim.
16. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule).
As noted above, quantum theory is a nat/mat theory. It just deals with nat/mat reality on the very smallest scales. It lends no support to the concept of a transcendent soul which at best is poorly-defined and at worst is incoherent. Furthermore, in his The Life of Samuel Johnson James Boswell recounts the following episode:
After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."
The reality is that, if you kick a stone hard now, it will hurt your foot just as much as it did in Johnson's day. Quantum theory has not changed that one jot. What has changed profoundly is our understanding of the nature of matter right down to the quantum scale. And quantum theory and the phenomena it describes do not appear in any theology. It is entirely a product of naturalistic science. If we had relied on religion to guide us in these matters we would still be entirely ignorant about the quantum domain.Seversky
June 14, 2020
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Again, my argument is simply that human rights and objective moral values do not follow necessarily from atheistic naturalism/materialism. However, this neither proves or disproves that they exist. Indeed, there many naturalists who agree with me that their world view provides no basis for objective moral values – E.O. Wilson, William Provine, Richard Dawkins, Joel Marks, Alex Rosenberg, Michael Ruse, J. L. Mackie… to name a few. Here are some quotes from an online article by the unapologetic Darwinian apologist, Michael Ruse:
Morality is just a matter of emotions, like liking ice cream and sex and hating toothache and marking student papers. But it is, and has to be, a funny kind of emotion. It has to pretend that it is not that at all! If we thought that morality was no more than liking or not liking spinach, then pretty quickly it would break down. Before long, we would find ourselves saying something like: "Well, morality is a jolly good thing from a personal point of view. When I am hungry or sick, I can rely on my fellow humans to help me. But really it is all bullshit, so when they need help I can and should avoid putting myself out. There is nothing there for me." The trouble is that everyone would start saying this, and so very quickly there would be no morality and society would collapse and each and every one of us would suffer. So morality has to come across as something that is more than emotion. It has to appear to be objective, even though really it is subjective… [M]orality is an illusion put in place by your genes to make you a social cooperator, what's to stop you behaving like an ancient Roman? Well, nothing in an objective sense. But you are still a human with your gene-based psychology working flat out to make you think you should be moral.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/mar/15/morality-evolution-philosophy Of course, why should “your genes,” which according to Darwinian thinking is just the accidental by product of a long mindless natural process, care anything about morality? However, if morality is just an illusion, and I believed this (hypothetically speaking) as Ruse does, then I wouldn’t have any real moral obligation towards my fellow man nor should I expect that anyone is obligated to treat me “morally” in return. Morality in such a society would soon become superfluous if not totally meaningless. The surest way to cause the collapse of civilization is to convince a majority or even a large minority of people that Ruse is right-- “morality is an illusion.”john_a_designer
June 14, 2020
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Ed George falsely claims that,
"If you firmly believe that there is a God and that Jesus was the physical embodiment of that God, then you are going to filter your observations through that lens, in spite of mountains of contradictory evidence."
Exactly where are your "mountains of contradictory evidence"? You have none! Contrary to your false and empty claim, I can actually produce "mountains of contradictory evidence" that your materialistic Darwinian worldview is false and that Theism is true.
1. Naturalism/Materialism predicted space-time energy-matter always existed. Theism predicted space-time energy-matter were created. Big Bang cosmology now strongly indicates that time-space energy-matter had a sudden creation event approximately 14 billion years ago. 2. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the universe is a self sustaining system that is not dependent on anything else for its continued existence. Theism predicted that God upholds this universe in its continued existence. Breakthroughs in quantum mechanics reveal that this universe is dependent on a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause for its continued existence. 3. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that consciousness is an ‘emergent property’ of material reality and thus should have no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicts consciousness precedes material reality and therefore, on that presupposition, consciousness should have a ‘special’ position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 4. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe. Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time. – Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 – 2 Timothy 1:9) - 5. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and that life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind. Scientists find the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. Moreover it is found, when scrutinizing the details of physics and chemistry, that not only is the universe fine-tuned for carbon based life, but is specifically fine-tuned for life like human life (R. Collins, M. Denton).- 6. Naturalism/Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe. Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex organic life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe (G. Gonzalez; Hugh Ross). - 7. Naturalism/Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11). Geochemical evidence from the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth indicates that complex photosynthetic life has existed on earth as long as water has been on the face of earth. - 8. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the first life to be relatively simple. Theism predicted that God is the source for all life on earth. The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 9. Naturalism/Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse animal life to appear abruptly in the seas in God’s fifth day of creation. The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short “geologic resolution time” in the Cambrian seas. - 10. Naturalism/Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record. Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 11. Naturalism/Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man (our genus ‘modern homo’ as distinct from the highly controversial ‘early homo’) is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. (Tattersall; Luskin)– 12. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that the separation of human intelligence from animal intelligence ‘is one of degree and not of kind’ (C. Darwin). Theism predicted that we are made in the ‘image of God’- Despite an ‘explosion of research’ in this area over the last four decades, human beings alone are found to ‘mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities.’ (Tattersall; Schwartz). Moreover, both biological life and the universe itself are found to be ‘information theoretic’ in their foundational basis. 13. Naturalism/Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made – ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a “biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.”. - 14. Naturalism/Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth – The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 15. Naturalism/Materialism predicted morality is subjective and illusory. Theism predicted morality is objective and real. Morality is found to be deeply embedded in the genetic responses of humans. As well, morality is found to be deeply embedded in the structure of the universe. Embedded to the point of eliciting physiological responses in humans before humans become aware of the morally troubling situation and even prior to the event even happening. 16. Naturalism/Materialism predicted that we are merely our material bodies with no transcendent component to our being, and that we die when our material bodies die. Theism predicted that we have minds/souls that are transcendent of our bodies that live past the death of our material bodies. Transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule). Theism compared to Naturalism - Major predictions of each Philosophy - with references https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vHkCYvFiWiZfMlXHKJwwMJ7SJ0tlqWfH83dJ2OgfP78/edit
In fact modern science is even very good at pointing us to Christianity as the solution to the much sought after 'theory of everything' Specifically, allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, as the Christian founders of modern science originally envisioned,,,, (Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and Max Planck, to name a few of the Christian founders),,, and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands (with the closing of the free will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead provides an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between quantum mechanics and general relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”. Here are a few posts where I lay out and defend some of the evidence for that claim:
January 2020 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/welcome-to-the-brave-new-world-of-science/#comment-690569
To give us a small glimpse of the power that was involved in Christ's resurrection from the dead, the following recent article found that, ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion (Trillion) Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.”
Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016 Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”. ‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”. Comment The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology. http://westvirginianews.blogspot.com/2011/12/new-study-claims-shroud-of-turin-is.html
Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
June 14, 2020
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RP@301, I can definitely see your point. It all has to do with the honest biases imparted by belief systems. If you firmly believe that there is a God and that Jesus was the physical embodiment of that God, then you are going to filter your observations through that lens, in spite of mountains of contradictory evidence. “Universal human rights” and “objective morality” are two cases in point. Even though all human experience and evidence points away from these, the truly faithful will twist logic until it fits their agenda.Ed George
June 14, 2020
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If you say, ‘according to my philosophical position, Japanese people can’t fish’, and someone shows you evidence of Japanese people fishing, and you say, ‘well yes, they may act like they’re fishing, but it’s not properly grounded fishing’, it’s not the Japanese people who are doing it wrong, it’s you.Retired Physicist
June 14, 2020
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Acartia Edie:
Given the evidence of variation in accepted human rights we see today, and we have seen throughout history, I find it difficult to accept that there exists some intelligently designed, unchangeable “universal human rights”.
Logic and reason would say that said variation would have started from something. And that something are those "universal human rights". How many times does this have to be explained to you? o you think that your continued willful ignorance is an argument? Really? How many times have we observed humans changing things to suit their wants and needs? Just about every day, throughout history. But for some reason Acartia Eddie thinks that if there are universal human rights that humans can't just do as we please, regardless. Ed's inability to think, while entertaining, is getting obnoxious.ET
June 14, 2020
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JaD
LoL! No, “universal” does not mean “understood and accepted by everyone… Indeed that’s the problem it’s not “understood and accepted by everyone.” Rather a right is something that ought to be respected by everyone.
So, if I am understanding you correctly, and I apologize in advance if I don’t, a universal right is something that is derived and exists outside of human “invention”. Something that is imparted by the “designer”. But human individuals, being flawed, do not always accurately understand or accept these rights. Have I captured the gist of this? If so, for these these “Universal rights” to be effective, they must be accurately perceived by enough people (or by enough people with power) that they can be imposed on those that don’t perceive them, by force if necessary. The alternate is that humans, based on logic and reasoning (or mutual self interest), come to agreement on what they believe all humans should be entitled to. If a large enough majority of people (or enough people with power) agree with these “rights” they can impose them on those who don’t, by force if necessary. Given the evidence of variation in accepted human rights we see today, and we have seen throughout history, I find it difficult to accept that there exists some intelligently designed, unchangeable “universal human rights”.Ed George
June 14, 2020
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Et to EG @ 295-296, LoL! No, “universal” does not mean “understood and accepted by everyone… Indeed that’s the problem it’s not “understood and accepted by everyone.” Rather a right is something that ought to be respected by everyone. For example, according to the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.” See my further comments @ 225: https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/the-folly-of-projecting-group-stereotype-guilt-and-the-present-kairos/#comment-704175 Notice, the U.N. Declaration is not legally binding. There are many oppressive regimes that thumb their noses at it. It’s morally binding… But how can anyone’s subjective opinion or belief be morally binding on anyone else?john_a_designer
June 14, 2020
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Seversky @ 294, I have a moral obligation to respect the civil rights of atheists? Says who?john_a_designer
June 14, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
If by “universal” you mean understood and accepted by everyone, and unchanged over time and culture, then I would agree with this statement.
LoL! No, "universal" does not mean "understood and accepted by everyone, and unchanged over time and culture".
But since we don’t have this I guess we will have to continue to rely on cooperation, shared self-interest, explanatory power and, where necessary, economic pressures, to develop a set of human rights that the majority can live with.
Yet we don't have that.ET
June 13, 2020
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JaD
Am I right that atheistic naturalism/materialism provides no logical or metaphysical basis for human rights?
I think that is fair to say.
Only if an eternally existing transcendent moral standard exists is there any basis for universal human rights.
If by “universal” you mean understood and accepted by everyone, and unchanged over time and culture, then I would agree with this statement. But since we don’t have this I guess we will have to continue to rely on cooperation, shared self-interest, explanatory power and, where necessary, economic pressures, to develop a set of human rights that the majority can live with.Ed George
June 13, 2020
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John_a_designer @ 292
The secular-progressive left is basically atheistic. They are the ones who have illegitimately coopted the idea of human rights and are using it to pass legislation to persecute not only Christians but anyone desiring to live their lives according to traditional moral values.
It is only in recent years that it has become relatively safe to admit to being atheist and, even now, that is not without repercussions in terms of social standing, employability and electability. How many members of Congress openly declare themselves atheist? The furthest a few are prepared to go is to register themselves as unaffiliated. So it rings hollow when Christians attempt to play the victim card and complain about persecution when what is really happening is that a little of the unwarranted privilege they have enjoyed for centuries is being eroded. As for human rights, who else should decide what rights human beings should enjoy other than the human beings who will benefit from them? There is no reason to believe in some "eternally existing transcendent moral standard" nor is it obvious that there is any need for one. As for the basis for universal human rights that is to be found in the common interests of all human beings and not in the tenets of any particular faith.Seversky
June 13, 2020
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Seversky, instead of trying to convince me that you are not just a neuronal illusion that does not really exist as a real person, perhaps you should try to convince Jerry Coyne, and some of the other leading limelights of evolutionary thinking, that you are not a neuronal illusion and that you really exist as a real person? After all, they are suppose to be experts in Darwinism aren't they? It kind of looks really bad for you when they themselves disagree with you.
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne – Ross Douthat – January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession (by Coyne) that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. https://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?mcubz=3 “You are robots made out of meat. Which is what I am going to try to convince you of today” Jerry Coyne – No, You’re Not a Robot Made Out of Meat (Science Uprising 02) – video https://youtu.be/rQo6SWjwQIk?list=PLR8eQzfCOiS1OmYcqv_yQSpje4p7rAE7-&t=20 “(Daniel) Dennett concludes, ‘nobody is conscious … we are all zombies’.” J.W. SCHOOLER & C.A. SCHREIBER – Experience, Meta-consciousness, and the Paradox of Introspection – 2004 The Brain: The Mystery of Consciousness - STEVEN PINKER - Monday, Jan. 29, 2007 Part II THE ILLUSION OF CONTROL Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. http://www.academia.edu/2794859/The_Brain_The_Mystery_of_Consciousness The Consciousness Deniers – Galen Strawson – March 13, 2018 Excerpt: What is the silliest claim ever made? The competition is fierce, but I think the answer is easy. Some people have denied the existence of consciousness: conscious experience, the subjective character of experience, the “what-it-is-like” of experience.,,, Who are the Deniers?,,, Few have been fully explicit in their denial, but among those who have been, we find Brian Farrell, Paul Feyerabend, Richard Rorty, and the generally admirable Daniel Dennett.,,, http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories. As Barr points out, this implies not only that God does not exist — because God is not material — but that you do not exist. For you are not a material constituent postulated by any of our most fundamental physical theories; at best, you are an aggregate of those constituents, arranged in a particular way. Not just you, but tables, chairs, countries, countrymen, symphonies, jokes, legal contracts, moral judgments, and acts of courage or cowardice — all of these must be fully explicable in terms of those more fundamental, material constituents. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html “that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick – “The Astonishing Hypothesis” 1994 At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video 37:51 minute mark Quote: “It turns out that if every part of you, down to sub-atomic parts, are still what they were when they weren’t in you, in other words every ion,,, every single atom that was in the universe, that has now become part of your living body, is still what is was originally. It hasn’t undergone what metaphysicians call a ‘substantial change’. So you aren’t Richard Dawkins. You are just carbon and neon and sulfur and oxygen and all these individual atoms still. You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren’t any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That’s why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, “You know, I’m not really here”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s “There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.” – Alex Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10
The claim that our sense of self, that is to say, our conscious experience, is just a neuronal illusion is simply insane. As David Bentley Hart states in the following article, “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.”
The Illusionist – Daniel Dennett’s latest book marks five decades of majestic failure to explain consciousness. – 2017 Excerpt: “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.” – David Bentley Hart https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-illusionist
bornagain77
June 13, 2020
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A couple of years ago I had this exchange with one of our interlocutors who has since moved on: Me: “Armand Jacks questioned whether ‘someone else’s opinions’ could be evil. They could be if you try to force your opinions on somebody else.” AJ replied: “I agree. But when atheists are creating or influencing laws that impact you negatively, as Christians have done for centuries, let me know.” The secular-progressive left is basically atheistic. They are the ones who have illegitimately coopted the idea of human rights and are using it to pass legislation to persecute not only Christians but anyone desiring to live their lives according to traditional moral values. If you don’t know that you have not been paying attention to the news-- not only in the U.S. and Canada but internationally. Am I right that atheistic naturalism/materialism provides no logical or metaphysical basis for human rights? If I am not then one of our atheist interlocutors needs to present a counter argument, refuting the following premise: Only if an eternally existing transcendent moral standard exists is there any basis for universal human rights. Here is the full argument which I discuss in more detail above @ #159.
Only if an eternally existing transcendent moral standard exists is there any basis for universal human rights. Metaphysically atheistic naturalism/ materialism does not accept the existence of an eternally existing transcendent moral standard. Therefore, atheistic naturalism/ materialism does not have a basis for universal human rights.
https://uncommondescent.com/ethics/the-folly-of-projecting-group-stereotype-guilt-and-the-present-kairos/#comment-704043john_a_designer
June 13, 2020
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DS, yes, that hinterland-urban/coastal difference reflects how much further the urban areas are down the line of pull from the generations-long push I pointed out. The issue, further is that in 2016 things were far more polarised than hitherto, a message further underscored by the poll results on the demanded police abolition, with a reported strong majority of one party . . . within only days of this being pushed . . . in favour, and a much stronger majority of the country as a whole rejecting the notion. That is a signature of one side having become extremely radicalised in favour of their party's views [especially given the patent folly of the demand]. Unless something miraculous happens really fast, this does not look like ending well, as you know I have said over the past few days. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2020
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