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Are Darwinian claims for evolution consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

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A friend wrote to ask because he came across a 2001 paper, Entropy and Self-Organization in Multi-Agent Systems by H. Van Dyke Parunak and Sven Brueckner Proceedings of the International Conference on Autonomous Agents (Agents 2001), 124-130:

Emergent self-organization in multi-agent systems appears to contradict the second law of thermodynamics. This paradox has been explained in terms of a coupling between the macro level that hosts self-organization (and an apparent reduction in entropy), and the micro level (where random processes greatly increase entropy). Metaphorically, the micro level serves as an entropy “sink,” permitting overall system entropy to increase while sequestering this increase from the interactions where selforganization is desired. We make this metaphor precise by constructing a simple example of pheromone-based coordination, defining a way to measure the Shannon entropy at the macro (agent) and micro (pheromone) levels, and exhibiting an entropybased view of the coordination.

The thought seems to be that entropy decreases here but somehow increases somewhere where we can’t see it.

I’ve (O’Leary for News) always thought that a fishy explanation, especially because I soon discovered that even raising the question is considered presumptive evidence of unsound loyalties. The sort I am long accustomed to hearing from authoritarians covering up a scandal.

So not only do I not believe it, but after that sort of experience I get the sense I shouldn’t believe it. Depending on where I am working, I might need to parrot it to keep my job, of course, but it would be best not to actually believe it.

Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Rob Sheldon told us both,

What you read is the “standard” physics response. It is misleading on many levels.

a) Physicists really, really can’t explain what goes on in biology. Neither their definition of entropy, nor their definition of information (Shannon, etc) work. Rather than admit that they don’t know what is going on, they simply extrapolate what they do know (ideal gasses) to biology and make pronouncements.

b) While it is true that “open” systems may allow energy and matter to flow through them, which would change the information in the system, this does not nor cannot explain biology. The best treatment of this is Granville Sewell’s articles on different types of entropy. Truly excellent. It explains why sunlight does not carry enough information to create life out of precursor molecules. And people who claim this are either: (i) deluded that physics entropy = biology entropy, or (ii) equivocating on the use of the word “entropy”, or (iii) unable to handle basic math, or most likely, (iv) all the above.

c) This paper suggests that the cell has machinery for converting sunlight to information–e.g. photosynthesis. While true, this machine must be even more complicated than the carbohydrates it produces. Ditto for self-replicating machinery, etc. So if we permit some high level of information to enter the system, then low-level information can be created from energy sources. This argument really is indistinguishable from ID, though they may not realize it.

In conclusion, the violation of the 2nd Law remains true for biology, and there still is no good physics explanation for it.

It’s a good thing they didn’t realize it. They won’t have to issue some embarrassing repudiation of their work.

And I don’t have to believe something for which we have no evidence just to protect the tenurebots’ theory.

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Comments
Box: You claim that the second law should be confined to “heat”. Not at all. In classical terms, entropy is a measure of the unavailable energy per unit temperature in a system. In statistical terms, entropy is the number of possible microscopic states of a system in equilibrium. However, it is important to note that these measures are equivalent. Box: forum member CS3 shows you dead wrong by offering citations from several general university physics textbooks and several prominent physicists, which all indicate that Sewell’s alleged “conflation” is indeed universally recognized. No. The examples just highlight how Sewell has conflated the analogy with the thing being described. While statistical thermodynamics is based on probability, not all probability is statistical thermodynamics. To take one of the examples provided, while a deck of cards that is shuffled will almost certainly not return to its sorted state by continued shuffling, the deck of cards has virtually* the same thermodynamic entropy whether shuffled or sorted. (*Shuffling may cause some of the bonds in the paper to break.) Sewell needs to abandon his use of the term 2nd law of thermodynamics with regards to his probability argument. He doesn't presumably because he wants to obliquely garner the imprimatur of "law" to his claim. In any case, the manufacture and use of computers does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Do you disagree?Zachriel
March 6, 2015
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box
Here, in 2013, forum member CS3 shows you dead wrong by offering citations from several general university physics textbooks and several prominent physicists, which all indicate that Sewell’s alleged “conflation” is indeed universally recognized.
If that is the case what are the formula and units used to calculate the 'entropy' of these other applications?franklin
March 6, 2015
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Zachriel #83, You claim that the second law should be confined to "heat".
Zachriel: How is Sewell’s conflation “universally recognized”? What “other applications”?
Here, in 2013, forum member CS3 shows you dead wrong by offering citations from several general university physics textbooks and several prominent physicists, which all indicate that Sewell's alleged "conflation" is indeed universally recognized.Box
March 6, 2015
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Box: Are you, in effect, arguing that, just as ice crystals are what the actions of the four fundamental forces predict will form from a drop of water when entering the lower entropy state, maybe computers are what the four fundamental forces predict will form from a pile of rubble when entering a lower entropy state? Our claim, which is obvious, is that the manufacturing and use of computers does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 6, 2015
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Zachriel: Halloschlaf’s statement seemed to imply that order is not expected to occur because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, when we can easily point to many natural, ordered phenomena, none of which violate the 2nd law.
Are you, in effect, arguing that, just as ice crystals are what the actions of the four fundamental forces predict will form from a drop of water when entering the lower entropy state, maybe computers are what the four fundamental forces predict will form from a scrap yard when entering a lower entropy state? Are you saying that human brains, space ships, and encyclopedias are what the four unintelligent fundamental forces predict will form from a barren planet when sunlight enters it?Box
March 6, 2015
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kairosfocus: order is not functionally specific, typically aperiodic interactive, configuration and coupling sensitive organisation No, but that has nothing to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the topic of the thread. Which has more entropy (thermodynamic 'disorder'), a human brain or a like mass of diamonds?Zachriel
March 6, 2015
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Z, order is not functionally specific, typically aperiodic interactive, configuration and coupling sensitive organisation -- a distinction drawn by Orgel and Wicken in the 1970's. The issue is not that the existence of FSCO/I violates 2LOT, but that per the underlying phase or configs space view and relative statistical weights of clusters of microstates, FSCO/I is maximally implausible to emerge by spontaneous action of blind chance and mechanical necessity. The only empirically warranted source of the constructive work to create such is intelligently directed configuration, not the sort of forces responsible for phenomena like diffusion . . . a concept central to all of the discussions above. Again, I point you to 72 above. By responding to it, you will allow us to see the real issues at stake. KFkairosfocus
March 6, 2015
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kairosfocus: if you don’t understand how say ice crystallises by having ordering forces traceable to its polar molecules being in a context of the random thermal agitation that lies behind temperature or how metals crystallise due to packing factors etc, We do understand how crystals form. So you agree that order is not unexpected to occur because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, as we can easily point to many natural, ordered phenomena, none of which violate the 2nd law?Zachriel
March 6, 2015
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CHartsil:
Complexity alone is not a metric of design and never has been.
This is true:
Functional complexity already has come about mindlessly on earth.
Evidence please.Joe
March 6, 2015
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Z, if you don't understand how say ice crystallises by having ordering forces traceable to its polar molecules being in a context of the random thermal agitation that lies behind temperature or how metals crystallise due to packing factors etc, then I suggest a reading of TMLO, esp. ch 7. KF PS: My discussion here on in my always linked may help too. The box of idealised, classical marbles thought exercise will help develop an intuitive feel for wider implications of thermodynamic reasoning. It's not just about "heat." PPS: Your interlocutor comes across as knowing relevant statistical thermodynamics but is evidently not a native English speaker.kairosfocus
March 5, 2015
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kairosfocus: we both know that circumstances on which crystals form have to do with the ordering mechanical forces overcoming sufficiently low disorder linked to especially thermal agitation. Have no idea what you are trying to say. Halloschlaf's statement seemed to imply that order is not expected to occur because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, when we can easily point to many natural, ordered phenomena, none of which violate the 2nd law.Zachriel
March 5, 2015
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halloschlaf:
I’m sorry, but in my opinion you haven’t understood Sewell either. There’s no discussion about the probability of the formation of an hydrogen molecule under the dominion of the 2nd Law.
Agreed, there isn't. That was my jumping-off point to talk about entropy as it applies to biological systems, which is the continual passage to lower-energy molecular states due largely to following gradients provided by fields of charge and filling orbitals. That is the principal barrier a living system must overcome - not the generation of an 'improbable' complex state out of nothing, but the coupling of rechargable electron donors to replication (I know many here will see that as the same thing!).
The real problem is the emergence of highly improbable macrostates like kybernetic systems out of random microstates under the reign of the second law.
I don't think we can really know if the macrostates at the OoL were improbable or not. The configuration that works may be impossible or likely. Obviously, we haven't found it yet and maybe never will. But again, I see a confusion between the statistical-mechanical treatment of entropy and the concept of chemical free energy. What we look for at the OoL is essentially a replicator, potentially a single molecule. Appearing fully-formed, we see it as improbable (and may be right) but there is no rigorous way to test this.
The second law is correctly extended by Sewell and others to the whole microworld, because it’s a statistical law.
Well ... it can be treated as a statistical law. But actually, chemical free energy at the molecular level is much less 'statistical'. Get molecules close enough and they will react with significant inevitability. One of the distinctive characteristics of Life is the 'surgical' manner in which energy is applied. Things are not bathed in low-grade energy; 'energetic' molecules convey energy to specific locations (into which they fall by following thermodynamic gradients). Now, I wouldn't trivialise the problem of getting these molecules charged in the first place, and turning them into a minimally replicating system, but as soon as replication is ignited with an exponent > 1, the system has developed a unique buffer against 'informational' decay. Rather than having all one's eggs in a single molecular basket, multiple copies are made, some of which will degrade, but not all. I think this is vital.
Thermic energy which may transgress the border will be of no use in these scenarios[...]
Thermic energy plays little part in biology, and the same, I think, goes for the OoL. Indeed, I would relegate photons to a secondary role too. It's all about the chemical energy, and (I think) early life was entirely chemically sustained, with no input from the sun.
The same is true with random impulses which may transgress the border. Because random impulses lead exactly to the statistical consequences of the second law that means higher entropy
Agreed, but I don't appeal to those either. I can only speculate, but I think a potential first step may be the self-selection of short complementary nucleic acid strands. They bind preferentially (by following thermodynamic gradients, exactly the way PCR primers find their targets today). This allows greater persistence over free single strands in solution (by increasing thermodynamic robustness). Thermodynamics can certainly not be ignored in OoL considerations. Tapping into thermodynamic gradients is one of the defining characteristics of Life - not random impulses, but a continuous supply. That which degrades also sustains.Hangonasec
March 5, 2015
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Z, pardon me but we both know that circumstances on which crystals form have to do with the ordering mechanical forces overcoming sufficiently low disorder linked to especially thermal agitation. To melt a crystalline solid, we HEAT it, as a rule. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2015
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Z, again, kindly look at the statistical foundations of the 2LOT. As I pointed out in 72 above (per fair comment, now conspicuously tip-toed around again and again . . . ), injection of raw uncoupled energy is utterly unlikely to perform constructive work at nano or macro scales, particularly work . . . forced, ordered motion per dW = F*dx . . . that produces FSCO/I rich entities; e.g. by step by step co-ordinated assembly processes. And that is at the heart of the OOL issue. Open systems dismissive arguments miss the pivotal point. KFkairosfocus
March 5, 2015
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halloschlaf: The microstates of small particles which are governed by the second law will definitely show a trend towards higher entropy which means, that „the stuff will mix up“. Crystals are highly improbable arrangements of molecules, definitely not "mixed up". So you're saying crystals can't form naturally.Zachriel
March 5, 2015
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harry: Thanks for your able comments at 91. I was relying too much on memory for what Sewell said. I might add that some of the best comments on Sewell's argument that I have seen were posted on this site by "cs3", on this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/where-is-the-difference-here/ Sewell like the comments of cs3 and said they were clearer than his own original article. I would agree with that.Timaeus
March 5, 2015
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@hangonasec I hope you can understand my English, because English is not my mother tongue. I'm sorry, but in my opinion you haven't understood Sewell either. There's no discussion about the probability of the formation of an hydrogen molecule under the dominion of the 2nd Law. The real problem is the emergence of highly improbable macrostates like kybernetic systems out of random microstates under the reign of the second law. The second law is correctly extended by Sewell and others to the whole microworld, because it's a statistical law. This extension seems totally plausible and is of course testable. The microstates of small particles which are governed by the second law will definitely show a trend towards higher entropy which means, that „the stuff will mix up“. That is absolutely analog to the thermodynamic effects, which can be observed in classical thermodynamic experiments. Only and only if a capable force or a capable principle transgress the border of the open system that can operate with the microparticles in a distinctive way so that improbable macrostates will be formed, improblable macrostates will occur. Thermic energy which may transgress the border will be of no use in these scenarios, because it provides no directed stimulus which is needed to form a kybernetic system as an example of an highly improblable macrostatus. The same is true with random impulses which may transgress the border. Because random impulses lead exactly to the statistical consequences of the second law that means higher entropy..halloschlaf
March 5, 2015
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Box @87,
“Apparent ordering” … sure. - On the free energy from the sun …
I don't think you grasped my point, and seem to have completely skipped over the part about chemotrophy. The sun has certainly had a part to play, but I invited readers to consider the bare bones of an 'apparent ordering' system, where 2 atoms become 'ordered' molecular hydrogen because they can shed energy by doing so. There is no 'local decrease' in entropy; the system simply spreads out by movement of energy from a local to a dissipated state. It's electrons that really drive this, for present purposes. The same applies to protein folding, and nucleic acid complementary binding for example. The 'ordering' process is adoption of a lower free energy state. It is ALWAYS coupled to a net dissipation of energy - ie, the 2nd Law is not violated. This 'ordered' molecular state is not locally improbable, but almost inevitable. Of course, higher-order states - computers and suchlike - are individually less probable, but their existence depends nevertheless upon the energy flux through those lower ordered states. Of course, what Life does - and it is pretty nifty - is 'recharge' by various means so that permanent equilibrium is not achieved. But there is no sudden improbable, against-entropy step in this cycle. It needs fuel, in the form of electronegative molecules, or photons. Photosynthesis is a substantial source of energy flux for sure. But more fundamental is the chemical tendency of electrons to follow gradients (and shed energy as they do so). It's really that which photosynthesis exploits as well. It elevates the energy of electrons to permit the molecule in which they sit to function as an electron donor. Electron donation is key. Chemical entropy has next to nothing to do with probability, or statistical mechanics. Chemistry is pretty deterministic, as it goes, and I am no fan of the 'entropy = disorder' pedagological approach. The quote from Sewell, meanwhile ... well, how can one have a discussion with a quote? There is no 'compensation'. One is not 'borrowing probability', like a quantum-tunnelling electron or a 'local improbability drive'. Computers are made by people, some time after a decent (and not free) lunch. They may have been a priori improbable on a bare earth, but they violate no physical laws.Hangonasec
March 5, 2015
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CHartsil @98
Complexity alone is not a metric of design and never has been.
So what? Intricacy and complexity are common. Functional complexity is another matter.
Functional complexity already has come about mindlessly on earth.
Yes. The nanotechnology of life and functionally complex technology created by humanity are present on Earth. Life, like our own technology, is the result of intelligent agency. What is your example of mindlessly arrived at significant functional complexity (that isn't life itself)?harry
March 5, 2015
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"The point is that there is nothing about energy flow into an open system that makes the emergence of functional complexity significantly less unlikely. It may make it more ordered if there is a mechanism to constructively harness the energy, but significant functional complexity doesn’t seem to ever come about mindlessly." Complexity alone is not a metric of design and never has been. Functional complexity already has come about mindlessly on earth.CHartsil
March 5, 2015
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harry: The point is that there is nothing about energy flow into an open system that makes the emergence of functional complexity less unlikely. There's nothing in the 2nd law of thermodynamics that precludes it either.Zachriel
March 5, 2015
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CHartsil @93 Let me put it the way McIntosh cited by Sewell put it, cited above:
However, all these authors are making the same assumption — viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving.
The point is that there is nothing about energy flow into an open system that makes the emergence of functional complexity significantly less unlikely. It may make it more ordered if there is a mechanism to constructively harness the energy, but significant functional complexity doesn't seem to ever come about mindlessly.harry
March 5, 2015
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Harry, You must forgive Zachriel who holds on to a very narrow and outdated understanding of the second law. Experience informs us that it's no use trying to change his mind.Box
March 5, 2015
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harry: The emergence of gemstones does not in any way establish that sunshine made the mindless, accidental emergence of life on Earth any less unlikely. However, the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn't preclude it. harry: if such an entropy decreasing mechanism is present, all it does is just that: creates a more ordered system. Order in itself does not force the emergence of functional complexity. However, the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn't preclude it.Zachriel
March 5, 2015
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Zachriel @92
Actually, increases in entropic order (i.e. local decreases in entropy) are very common in nature, e.g. the formation of gemstones.
And as I said:
if such an entropy decreasing mechanism is present, all it does is just that: creates a more ordered system. Order in itself does not force the emergence of functional complexity.
The emergence of gemstones is an example of increasing order, but not functional complexity. Yes, that commonly happens.harry
March 5, 2015
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"The entrance of energy makes a decrease in entropy possible, provided there is a mechanism to constructively harness it, but it in no way makes that decrease probable. And if such an entropy decreasing mechanism is present, all it does is just that: creates a more ordered system." You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of entropy. Entropy in physics is just a measure of energy in a system unable to do physical work. If you think the sun adding energy to the earth doesn't help, try living on PlutoCHartsil
March 5, 2015
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harry: The entrance of energy makes a decrease in entropy possible, provided there is a mechanism to constructively harness it, but it in no way makes that decrease probable. Actually, increases in entropic order (i.e. local decreases in entropy) are very common in nature, e.g. the formation of gemstones.Zachriel
March 5, 2015
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Timaeus @65:
The way he wrote it up, he ended up having to defend two very large theses: (1) that the second law is actually merely an instance of a more general law; (2) that this more general law forbids evolution. It's always better if you can restrict yourself to one thesis per article; it's not only easier for the reader to tell what you are talking about -- it's easier to defend one radical thesis than two.
I don't think Sewell had to establish "that the second law is actually merely an instance of a more general law." It is widely regarded as just that. For example, some thoughts of Stephen Hawking on the 2LT:
It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics. This says that the total amount of disorder, or entropy, in the universe, always increases with time. However, the Law refers only to the total amount of disorder. The order in one body can increase, provided that the amount of disorder in its surroundings increases by a greater amount. -- http://www.hawking.org.uk/life-in-the-universe.html
Or as Sewell himself points out:
Consider, for example, three common statements of the second law from the textbook Classical and Modern Physics [2: p. 618]: 1. In an isolated system, thermal entropy cannot decrease. 2. In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from order to disorder. 3. In an isolated system, the direction of spontaneous change is from an arrangement of lesser probability to an arrangement of greater probability. -- Sewell G (2013) Entropy and evolution. BIO-Complexity 2013 (2): 1-5.
Yet it is true that when it is pointed out that the "more general law" presents a problem for the theory of mindless, accidental evolution, that is typically countered with arguments relying on the narrow definition of the 2LT. Sewell later points this out:
But not everyone finds this line of argument convincing. Andy McIntosh offers this critique of the Styer [5] and Bunn [6] papers in a recent article [8]:
Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to 'achieve' life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption -- viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question of how a local system can possibly reduce the entropy without existing machinery to do this.
Indeed, the compensation argument is predicated on the idea that there is no content to the second law apart from a prohibition of net entropy decreases in isolated systems, and moreover that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.
Indeed, "not everyone finds this line of reasoning convincing." It seems obvious that energy entering an open system is going to do nothing but increase entropy in that system unless it is constructively harnessed by some mechanism. The entrance of energy makes a decrease in entropy possible, provided there is a mechanism to constructively harness it, but it in no way makes that decrease probable. And if such an entropy decreasing mechanism is present, all it does is just that: creates a more ordered system. Order in itself does not force the emergence of functional complexity. Functional complexity -- technology -- only comes about through the activity of an intelligent agent. Technology is commonly understood to be the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes. The digital-information-based nanotechnology of life is as obviously that as it is that our own technology is that. Most of us, most of the time, find it easy to immediately distinguish between technology and natural phenomena that were accidentally brought about by the mindless forces of nature. One of the reasons we can easily make that distinction, whether we are conscious of it or not, is that we have a sense of what is inevitable and what isn't. Phenomena like television sets and electric can-openers are not inevitable; one wouldn't say that the laws of physics applied to a given material environment will inevitably produce a television set. One might say that about a phenomenon like a star or a planet, but not about a laptop PC. Technology is not inevitable because it is unlikely. The nanotechnology of life is far, far more unlikely to come about mindlessly and accidentally than is a laptop PC. It is a tribute to the power of indoctrination that so many would scoff at the notion that a laptop PC might come about accidentally, but insist that the nanotechnology of life, the functional complexity of which is light years beyond our own technology, came about mindlessly and accidentally.harry
March 5, 2015
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Box: It’s perfectly fine for you to discuss heat distribution. We're discussing the topic of the original post. Spaceships do not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 5, 2015
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Zachriel, It's perfectly fine for you to discuss heat distribution. However I'm not interested, so don't direct your posts to me.Box
March 5, 2015
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