Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

At Big Think: Can we predict evolution?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

We can successfully predict the future arrangements of matter based on knowledge of the laws of physics that govern the interactions between particles. When too many particles exist to make detailed predictions about individual particles, we can use statistical physics to predict generally true and reliable outcomes of the larger system of particles. The 2nd law of thermodynamics provides us with a familiar example of outcomes based on statistical physics. If the future forms of living organisms are predictable, it will likewise be due to the ensemble of their systems of particles obeying fundamental laws of physics. “Evolution” is not a “law of physics” that is independent of or supersedes other known laws of physics.

Organisms respond in similar ways to similar circumstances.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

  • Evolution has long been viewed as a largely unpredictable process, influenced by chaotic factors like environmental disruptions and mutations. 
  • However, researchers have demonstrated cases in some organisms of “replicated radiation,” in which similar sets of traits evolve independently in different regions. Now, researchers report the first evidence for replicated radiation in a plant lineage. 
  • As biology learns more about phenomena like replicated radiation, we might be able to predict the course of evolution.

Evolution has a reputation for being unpredictable, yet orderly. With mutations and the environment playing huge roles, it seems that predicting which species will evolve which traits is much like guessing the roll of a single die with millions of faces. 

However, in some cases, researchers have found that the die rolls the same way again and again. A combination of separate organisms’ natural development and the environmental pressures placed on them can create very similar forms, or ecomorphs. Researchers call this phenomenon replicated radiation. (Sometimes, the term adaptive radiation is used synonymously.)

In a new paper published in the journal Nature Ecology & Evolution, an international group of researchers demonstrated that a plant lineage living in 11 geographically isolated regions independently evolved new species with similar leaf forms. This marks the first example of replicated radiation in plants, and the groundbreaking research gives us more insight into the possible future workings of evolution. 

Note: Reason suggests that the development of “similar leaf forms” stems from the fact that they all started from the same “plant lineage.” Furthermore, reason suggests that the original plant lineage had a built-in genomic variability that allowed the variant leaf forms to dominate when environmental pressures favored that form.

evolution
Credit: Annelisa Leinbach / Big Think

The article continues: Different species of Oreinotinus [Viburnum] have different types of leaves. Simply put, some have a large, hair-covered leaf, and others have a smaller, smooth leaf. Originally, experts postulated that both leaf forms evolved early in the group’s history and then dispersed separately through various mountain ranges, carried perhaps by birds. But the distribution pattern of the species, combined with the striking differences in leaf traits, gave researchers an ideal system to explore the possibility that these leaf forms evolved independently across different regions. In other words, they could explore whether this was a case of replicated radiation.

If replicated radiation is occurring, the researchers would expect two key results. First, species in the same area should be more closely related to each other than to species in different regions. Second, similar leaf traits should be present in most areas, but they should evolve independently of one another.

Turning over the same leaf

As Oreinotinus diversified, four major leaf types evolved independently from an ancestral leaf form. The four forms varied in size, shape, margin — that is, whether the edge of the leaf is smooth or toothed — and the presence of leaf hairs. The study grouped the leaves into four types. The researchers also backed up their assessments with a statistical analysis based on these characteristics. 

Nine of the 11 areas harbor at least two leaf forms; four areas include three forms; and one, Oaxaca, is home to four. Based on simulations and models, the authors rejected the simple evolutionary model in which the leaf forms evolved before the species dispersed. They also found that chance alone does not likely explain why nine areas of endemism host two or more leaf forms. Based on these lines of evidence, the team concluded that leaf forms evolved separately within multiple regions. The leaf morphs did not originate early in Oreinotinus evolution. Rather, as different lineages diversified within different areas, each lineage “traversed the same regions of leaf morpho-space.”

So what is this clade telling us when it evolves different leaf forms? As it turns out, different leaves provide different advantages that suit particular climate niches. For example, the smaller leaves would allow more precise thermoregulation — the leaf won’t get too hot or too cold as the weather changes. On the other hand, large leaves would be better for lower-light, frequently cloudy environments, because they improve light capture and make photosynthesis more efficient. So the different leaf ecomorphs are adapted to specific sets of subtly different but often adjacent environmental niches.

The future of evolution

Researchers can now add Oreinotinus to an exclusive list of other groups of organisms known to have undergone replicated radiation, such as Anolis lizards in the Caribbean, cichlid fishes in African rift lakes, and spiders in Hawaii.

With a plant on the list, evolutionary biologists know this is not a trend exclusive to animals isolated on islands, where most of the other examples come from. Like island archipelagos, the cloud forest environments of Oreinotinus are separate from one another. A plant example will help evolutionary biologists pinpoint the broad circumstances under which we can make solid predictions about evolution.

Whether it’s Darwin’s finches, Oreinotinus, or a group of sugar-hungry E. coli, we are all subject to the mysterious workings of evolution. But perhaps, as a diverse set of research groups work to tackle the problem, the mystery will fade. As Michael Donoghue, a co-corresponding author of the Oreinotinus  study, said in a statement, “Maybe evolutionary biology can become much more of a predictive science than we ever imagined in the past.”

Full article at Big Think.

Predictive success alone does not guarantee the success of a theory of how nature works. Additional consequences of a theory must also make sense and not contradict established laws of nature. Naturalistic evolution still contradicts the principle that natural causes will on average degrade the information content (loss of functional complexity) of a system over time.

Comments
Alan Fox @220,
25 million year old DNA always looked dubious. Nobody in mainstream science sustains that claim.
Oh, really? Always looked dubious? If so, they were published anyway. Have you seen any retractions, revisions, or updates? I haven't. Here are some studies published relatively recently (i.e. not from the 1990s): The complete genome sequence of a Neandertal from the Altai Mountains (2013) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4031459/ Researchers Sequenced 430,000-Year-Old DNA From Neanderthal (2015) https://www.iflscience.com/researchers-sequenced-430000-year-old-dna-neanderthal-relative-30662 Tiny segments of DNA do not make the grade of "DNA sequencing." LOL So what's the experimentally measured half life of DNA extracted from animals in caves or other even more ideal environments such as permafrost? With a constant humidity and temperature, the effects of background radiation gain importance. -QQuerius
September 13, 2022
September
09
Sep
13
13
2022
09:08 PM
9
09
08
PM
PDT
25 million year old DNA always looked dubious. Nobody in mainstream science sustains that claim. Evidence that fragments remain, particularly in teeth, for hundreds of thousands of years is more convincing. What puzzles me is what is so shocking to Querius about early PCR-based searches for ancient DNA turned out to be compromised by contamination. So what is your challenge?Alan Fox
September 13, 2022
September
09
Sep
13
13
2022
04:33 PM
4
04
33
PM
PDT
The half-life of DNA has been scientifically determined to be 521 years (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11555). Thus, after only seven half lives or about 3,600 years, less than 1% of DNA would survive under ideal conditions (-5 C).
The authors, foresaw the problem and hypothesized that somehow, miraculously, magically, "short" segments of DNA MUSTA been able to survive.
It’s predicted that EVERY BOND in DNA would be destroyed in 6.8 million years. Nevertheless, Darwinists still claim that DNA sequences from insects in amber are 25-30 million years old (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1411508/) and that Neanderthal DNA has been sequenced as far back as 430,000 years (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1411508/).
So, the experimentally measured 521-year half-life of DNA has not been EXPERIMENTALLY falsified. Yet, claims of 25 million year old DNA has been announced and claims that the Neanderthal DNA has been SEQUENCED--all well beyond what experimental research can explain. And you don't see any problem with this? That's because you have faith in science fantasy while ignoring experimental evidence. How sweet. -QQuerius
September 13, 2022
September
09
Sep
13
13
2022
01:15 PM
1
01
15
PM
PDT
Querius:
I’ve presented a challenge that you’ve not answered, merely deflected to Wikipedia and pointless quibbles.
Nope. You've linked to a paper that gives a half-life for DNA in moa (an extinct flightless bird) bones found in soil deposits estimated to have a mean temperature of 13°C as 521 years. But, quoting the paper: It is tempting to suggest that we can now predict thetemporal limits of DNA survival, and finally refute theclaims of authentic DNA from Cretaceous and Miocenespecimens. This is, however, not straightforward. One needs information on the number of template molecules in living tissues, and estimates of post-mortem DNA decay rates for each tissue type. However, the half-life predictions (table 1) display the extreme improbability that an authentic 174 bp long mtDNA fragment of an80–85 Myr old bone could have been amplified [1]. Our results indicate that short fragments of DNA could be present for a very long time; at –58C, the model predicts a half-life of 158 000 years for a 30 bp mtDNA fragment in bone (table 1). Even rough estimates such as this imply that sequenceable bone DNA fragments may still be pre-sent more than 1 Myr after deposition in deep frozen environments. It therefore seems reasonable to suggest that future research may identify authentic DNA that is significantly older than the current record of approximately450–800 kyr from Greenlandic ice cores [47] So what is Querius challenging?Alan Fox
September 13, 2022
September
09
Sep
13
13
2022
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PDT
@ Querius The "fled" remark was in response to your 213 "pathetic trolls". It was humour, there was a ;) . Sorry for dropping to your level. Anyway as I already posted elsewhere, I'm on the move for a few days so you'll have to wait until I have time.Alan Fox
September 4, 2022
September
09
Sep
4
04
2022
11:33 PM
11
11
33
PM
PDT
No, I haven't fled, and I've presented a challenge that you've not answered, merely deflected to Wikipedia and pointless quibbles. So, what's the half-life of DNA under ideal conditions according to published experimental results? -QQuerius
September 4, 2022
September
09
Sep
4
04
2022
01:35 PM
1
01
35
PM
PDT
Querius has not responded. It's over half an hour! He's fled, the coward. ;)Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
September
09
Sep
3
03
2022
11:17 PM
11
11
17
PM
PDT
Having glanced through the paper (Allentoft et al, 2012), I note: Our results indicate that short fragments of DNA could be present for a very long time; at –5°C, the model predicts a half-life of 158 000 years for a 30 bp mtDNA fragment in bone (table 1). Even rough estimates such as this imply that sequenceable bone DNA fragments may still be present more than 1 Myr after deposition in deep frozen environments. It therefore seems reasonable to suggest that future research may identify authentic DNA that is significantly older than the current record of approximately 450–800 kyr from Greenlandic ice cores [47]. Half-life and sequenceable DNA fragments are different things.Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
September
09
Sep
3
03
2022
10:46 PM
10
10
46
PM
PDT
I'm still waiting for a response to my challenge regarding DNA half life. In working with chemistry simulation software, I've seen what's known to happen to complex molecules when the temperature of a solution increases and the molecular bonds begin to break. This phenomenon is not theoretical. It doesn't stop just because the molecule happens to be DNA. It's a probabilistic physical process that can be verified in any lab. The same is true for background radiation. Over time background ration also breaks bonds. It doesn't stop just because the molecule happens to be DNA. It's also a probabilistic physical process that can be verified in any lab. Additional environmental factors such as humidity, pH, chemical reactions, and location (such as being buried in a natural uranium deposit) will only hasten the breakup of DNA. There have been no direct experimental results that falsify the currently accepted value of 521 years as the MAXIMUM half-life of DNA. As usual, fundamentalist Darwinists have fled the conversation, being unable to produce ANY contrary experimental evidence, once again demonstrating their disingenuousness, evasion, and ideological poisoning in the face of scientific evidence. Pathetic trolls. -QQuerius
September 3, 2022
September
09
Sep
3
03
2022
06:43 PM
6
06
43
PM
PDT
Oh, and here's a paper from four years ago that disputes claimed long-age DNA sequencing: https://elifesciences.org/articles/46205 The authors accept the 2012/13 findings. -QQuerius
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
04:39 PM
4
04
39
PM
PDT
JVL @210, Ok, good. Then you must have located direct experimental evidence for a different half-life for DNA, right? I'm not talking about DNA that "musta" survived a presumed 30 million years, but the observed and measured decay of DNA through primarily heat and background radiation (there are several other factors). To argue that DNA half-life changed over thousands of years needs to demonstrate a cause for that rate change. This subject was introduced here last year: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/does-dna-really-have-a-half-life-physicist-rob-sheldon-is-skeptical/ And here's a link to the original publication in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B (Biological Sciences). I've not found any published study that falsifies these findings. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2012.1745 -QQuerius
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
04:21 PM
4
04
21
PM
PDT
Querius: You haven't admitted that your reference to 'Darwinists still' referred to papers that were published 20 years before the paper you referenced that should have changed responses. I assume that next time you try to make the point you will change your claim or your references.JVL
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
09:28 AM
9
09
28
AM
PDT
@ Querius True I haven't read the 1992 paper you linked to. A lot has happened since. You should always, as I do, check the references that Wikipedia provides. The simple point is that how long ancient DNA retains enough structure to be meaningful is affected hugely by the circumstances, some of which I mentioned: temperature, pH, presence of aggressive chemicals. I see the temperature of the buried moa bones that were studied are given as 13.1 °C.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
08:47 AM
8
08
47
AM
PDT
I see that Alan Fox has done his extensive research from that bastion of scientific knowledge, Wikipedia. LOL You've not been able to show any evidence that the half-life experiments done with the extinct moa were flawed, namely that the half-life of DNA was 521 year MAXIMUM at -5C and much less otherwise. Instead, you use Wikipedia's unsupported assertions that the half-life of DNA "musta" been longer under some (miraculous) conditions devoid of experimental science in order to conform with the current narrative. That's not science. That's baloney! Your responses are all mouth without ANY experimental evidence that science demands. Instead, you continue to parrot science fantasy. The good news is that you've exposed your ascientific ideological commitment. Bye. -QQuerius
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT
AF at 206, Time to disengage. Bye.relatd
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
07:58 AM
7
07
58
AM
PDT
JVL
And that paper you refer to indicating that ‘Darwinists still claim . . . ‘ is 20 years older than the first paper! Hardly evidence that ‘Darwinists still claim’ is it?
Indeed. For shame, Querius.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
02:46 AM
2
02
46
AM
PDT
Looks like Alan Fox is way too busy trolling other posts and won’t be debunking DNA half life after all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA covers the ground quite well. Certainly better than Querius' simplistic assertion. How long DNA survives depends on the conditions of preservation. Temperature, pH, corrosive contaminants all affect the chance of survival. Some of the oldest DNA has been recovered from frozen mammoths which makes a lot of sense. From the Wikipedia article
Researchers in 2016 measured chloroplast DNA in marine sediment cores, and found diatom DNA dating back to 1.4 million years. This DNA had a half-life significantly longer than previous research, of up to 15,000 years.
There's a link to Kirkpatrick's paper for those interested. ETA no claim of older examples of DNA have survived scrutiny and I'm not aware of anyone in the scientific mainstream continuing to justify them.Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
02:35 AM
2
02
35
AM
PDT
F/N: Kindly see the corrective OP here, particularly the clip from Lehninger. AF is grossly wrong.kairosfocus
September 2, 2022
September
09
Sep
2
02
2022
12:00 AM
12
12
00
AM
PDT
Querius: Apparently you missed my previous comment about this so I shall respond again: The half-life of DNA has been scientifically determined to be 521 years Seems like a reasonable result. As always, things are subject to replication and review. Nevertheless, Darwinists still claim that DNA sequences from insects in amber are 25-30 million years old And that paper you refer to indicating that 'Darwinists still claim . . . ' is 20 years older than the first paper! Hardly evidence that 'Darwinists still claim' is it? Perhaps you'd like to either change your claim or update your references. I expect to see one of those changes before I see this statement a third time.JVL
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
10:58 PM
10
10
58
PM
PDT
I'll see your 200 and raise you 1. (smile) -QQuerius
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
10:13 PM
10
10
13
PM
PDT
Looks like Alan Fox is way too busy trolling other posts and won't be debunking DNA half life after all. LOL -QQuerius
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
10:11 PM
10
10
11
PM
PDT
Look at that I’m the 200 hundredth post Carry on everyoneAaronS1978
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
09:54 PM
9
09
54
PM
PDT
And not to mention that it's long been known that . . . * The half-life of DNA has been scientifically determined to be 521 years (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11555). Thus, after only seven half lives or about 3,600 years, less than 1% of DNA would survive under ideal conditions (-5 C). It’s predicted that EVERY BOND in DNA would be destroyed in 6.8 million years. Nevertheless, Darwinists still claim that DNA sequences from insects in amber are 25-30 million years old (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1411508/) and that Neanderthal DNA has been sequenced as far back as 430,000 years (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1411508/). The scientific evidence to the contrary keeps piling up while Darwinists cling to their 19th century racist and colonialist theory that doesn't even work. I liked where the article pointed out that Darwinism simply cannot explain the origin of novel features outside of unbelievable amounts of luck. -QQuerius
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
04:00 PM
4
04
00
PM
PDT
Martin_r @72,
Have you ever heard of Senegal bichir ?
No, I hadn't! Sorry I missed your post. The information was fascinating! I also appreciated the link to the excellent article explaining why even mainstream scientists are now unhappy with the current theory of evolution as crude and misleading. -QQuerius
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
I am simply acknowledging what you cannot it seems, that there is a generally settled conclusion that for cause has won several Nobel Prizes that there is a genetic code involved in protein synthesis.
I'm perfectly content to refer to the triple codon system that is almost universal among living organisms as the genetic code. The name is not the issue. The way it leads you into misleading analogies is the problem.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
Martin_r: My question is, how did blind unguided process figured out, how to “correctly” process millions of different colors based on these “signals”, unless there is a color chart hardcoded in our brain. E.g. this signal(s) stands for this color, that signal(s) for another color and so on … Hang on, do you think there was a colour chart before humans came about? That the colours we recognise as blue or green or chartreuse were things before humans defined them? Let's just add to that: tell me what is blue? What is your definition of blue?JVL
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
AndyClue alright ... i am confused and you are not. Let's get back to my question about brain's color chart. from a mainstream article:
The brain uses light signals detected by the retina's cone photoreceptors as the building blocks for color perception. Three types of cone photoreceptors detect light over a range of wavelengths. The brain mixes and categorizes these signals to perceive color in a process that is not well understood.
My question is, how did blind unguided process figured out, how to "correctly" process millions of different colors based on these "signals", unless there is a color chart hardcoded in our brain. E.g. this signal(s) stands for this color, that signal(s) for another color and so on ...martin_r
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
11:56 AM
11
11
56
AM
PDT
AF, I never claimed independence of thought in biochem, I am simply acknowledging what you cannot it seems, that there is a generally settled conclusion that for cause has won several Nobel Prizes that there is a genetic code involved in protein synthesis. Do you deny what is in 188 above, on what grounds and what would the leading figures have to say to that. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
06:25 AM
6
06
25
AM
PDT
So no background in biochemistry then, KF. I thought not.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
06:19 AM
6
06
19
AM
PDT
AF, already answered above, on biochem we are not dealing with subtle esoterica but matters of the central dogma, taught in school from primary years up these days. On t/comms, digital electronics etc I am an applied physicist. And while these things are less taught they too are core basics. What do you think it means for me to report my students' reactions to the ladder vs rope comparison for analogue vs digital? or why, time after time 60-state digital systems were the good for a chuckle case? BTW, I always thought duodecimal sounds like a digestive disorder. Back to the merits. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2022
September
09
Sep
1
01
2022
06:11 AM
6
06
11
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 9

Leave a Reply