At Evolution News: Behe Debates the Limits of Darwinian Evolution

_{Eric Hedin

August 31, 2022

Evolution, Intelligent Design}

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Connecting with an earlier post at UD, Michael Behe speaks to the limits of naturalism and when a “designing intelligence” is needed.

A new ID the Future episode wraps up a debate over evolution and intelligent design between Lehigh University biologist Michael Behe and Benedictine College theologian Michael Ramage. Both Behe and Ramage are Catholic, and they carry on their conversation in the context of Catholic thinking about nature and creation, in particular the work of Thomas Aquinas and contemporary Thomist philosophers. Ramage seeks to integrate his Thomistic/personalist framework with modern evolutionary theory’s commitment to macroevolution and common descent. Behe doesn’t discount the possibility of common descent but he lays out a case that any evolution beyond the level of genus — for instance, the separate families containing cats and dogs — cannot be achieved through mindless Darwinian mechanisms and, instead, would require the contributions of a designing intelligence. Behe summarizes both the negative evidence against the Darwinian mechanism of change and the positive evidence in nature for intelligent design. This debate was hosted by Pat Flynn on his Philosophy for the People podcast. Download the episode or listen to it here.
Evolution News

Comments

For those who want to learn about ID whether for or against, here is one of the masters explaining it. It's not reading but listening which can be done in the car or while walking. https://chroniclesofstrength.substack.com/p/the-michael-behe-collection-conversationsjerry_{September 16, 2022
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interbreed, not inner breed
Thank you. For those who question Evolution or support it, I suggest they all read/listen to Darwin Devolves by Michael Behe. Actually, one can start with chapter 6-9 where he gets into a lot of details of what has happened with birds and fish and bacteria. The book’s title is not deceiving but it is also not inviting. I actually am finding the data very interesting but was not persuaded to buy it till recently because I thought it would be a dull read. I skipped the early part of the book and plan to read it later. Might be a mistake but am enjoying the data. Behe claims that variation and natural selection while definitely operating are big yawns and are self limiting. Reading why now.jerry_{September 6, 2022
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:lol: A Darwinist sell a turtle on ebay: This is the photo of the my turtle , but the price is 1 mil $ because even if looks and move like a normal turtle if given enough time that turtle can reach the speed of light.Lieutenant Commander Data_{September 6, 2022
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@ JVL... Every organism has distinctions... just like wolves and dogs, but is that a deletion or corruption of information or addition of information... can you name any examples where there was indisputed data that information and complexity was added to a genome via natural selection and random genetic mutations?zweston_{September 6, 2022
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Just FYI: interbreed, not inner breed.Viola Lee_{September 6, 2022
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From what the Grants said all can inner breed. They won’t do it naturally because of environment factors but there is no physical/biological obstacle. The Grants claimed it would take over 30 million years before inner breeding could not occur.jerry_{September 6, 2022
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Zweston: butting in to the last comment… for the non-interbreeding finches… couldn’t it be said that they had deteriorated in ability to reproduce with a broader population instead of developed a distinct group by addition of material? It's a distinct group either way wouldn't you say? Isn’t everything we observe just genetically breaking down? (contrary to what darwinists say of the past). I think you'll find that it's accepted that sometimes 'change' means loss of some trait or function.JVL_{September 6, 2022
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JVL... butting in to the last comment... for the non-interbreeding finches... couldn't it be said that they had deteriorated in ability to reproduce with a broader population instead of developed a distinct group by addition of material? Isn't everything we observe just genetically breaking down? (contrary to what darwinists say of the past).zweston_{September 6, 2022
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Jerry: If they all can inner breed, what do these classifications really mean? I tried to check on that . . . there is clear evidence that some of the 'species' can and are interbreeding but I'm not sure about ALL of the 'Galapagos finches'. I guess they're not really finches by modern taxonomic categories. I would think it would require that the concept of a species be examined closely. People should be using the same definition. For example, does anyone really think Darwin was thinking of different variants of his famous finches when he used the term species in his even more famous book? Species is a human created designation and nature is notoriously bad at abiding by human labels. If it could be shown that at least some of the 'Galapagos finches' could no longer interbreed would that change your view that they are still essential the same as when they first migrated to the islands?JVL_{September 6, 2022
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don’t think we would see that level of discourse at UD these days
Agree. Today it is more technical but vague by the ID adherents(interesting combination that produces shallowness). It drifts to whatever comes up. Mostly religion. Of course getting to the point produces less comments. Aside: one of the best most insightful commenters here was Timaeus. If not the best. He was a professor of philosophy at some university and hid his identity to protect his academic good standing. They were canceling over 10-15 years ago as Caspian well knows. Hope this isn’t an incentive to go off on useless repetive mini rants by some to comment. Maybe we can get back to what Behe is saying in response to Ramage and Flynn.jerry_{September 6, 2022
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That was a good article, and discussion. I don't think we would see that level of discourse at UD these days.Viola Lee_{September 6, 2022
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For those interested, a thorough but not very long discussion of theistic evolution took place 12 years ago on UD. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/olive-branch-from-karl-giberson/ I’m surprised it was so short. Today there would be several hundred comments all over the lot.jerry_{September 6, 2022
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Oh, also: so you would disagree with the modern taxonomic classifications of the Galapagos finches which includes different species and genus’s?
If they all can inner breed, what do these classifications really mean? I would think it would require that the concept of a species be examined closely. People should be using the same definition. For example, does anyone really think Darwin was thinking of different variants of his famous finches when he used the term species in his even more famous book?jerry_{September 5, 2022
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LtComData: What’s your point? I'm just wondering . . .if there was an observer around at the time would they have seen all the known animal and plant species, now around and the extinct ones, just appear out of thin air or would they have come out of some spaceship or lab or . . . I mean we're talking about a lot of creatures and plants all appearing at about the same time. And each species would have to have enough members to form a viable population. That's millions if not billions of individual plants or animals. And bacteria I suppose . . . Sounds like a ginormous lab! And I'm guessing you wouldn't want to release the lions really close to the cows. Not sure about the trilobites . . . or those really big dinosaurs!!JVL_{September 5, 2022
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Well, according to your view, if you had been around at the time when all the species were created what would you have seen happening?
:lol: What's your point? If I don't know how an advanced technology works that means that technology emerged by chance ? That's why you don't want to admit that life is directed by real code , real functional information?Lieutenant Commander Data_{September 5, 2022
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Jerry: essentially leaving the same species today that migrated to the islands 2 1/2 million years ago. Oh, also: so you would disagree with the modern taxonomic classifications of the Galapagos finches which includes different species and genus's? Have no idea. About the tortoises, okay.JVL_{September 5, 2022
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Same with the tortoises
Have no idea.jerry_{September 5, 2022
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Jerry: The changes in the Galapagos finches beak sizes over time were due to epigenetic changes caused by environmental pressures and happened rapidly. There were no significant changes to the genome and no permanent evolution as the beak sizes would change back. All would fluctuate back and forth for millions of years essentially leaving the same species today that migrated to the islands 2 1/2 million years ago. Same with the tortoises?JVL_{September 5, 2022
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The changes in the Galapagos finches beak sizes over time were due to epigenetic changes caused by environmental pressures and happened rapidly. There were no significant changes to the genome and no permanent evolution as the beak sizes would change back. All would fluctuate back and forth for millions of years essentially leaving the same species today that migrated to the islands 2 1/2 million years ago. Source: The Grants and Michael Behe.jerry_{September 5, 2022
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Relatd: Why bother? Unless you’re here to not saying anything of substance. Well, I asked you a question, which you answered. Then you made a statement which I thought I'd respond to just to offer my view but I had no intention of getting into an argument about it. You don't have to be so confrontational; at least not all the time. Can't we just have a conversation?JVL_{September 5, 2022
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JVL at 114, Why bother? Unless you're here to not saying anything of substance.relatd_{September 5, 2022
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Relatd: I just unguide my way to a new food source. Not credible. I didn't expect you to agree, I was just mentioning it.JVL_{September 5, 2022
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JVL at 111, I just unguide my way to a new food source. Not credible.relatd_{September 5, 2022
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LtComData: “Just appeared” (under the rock, from a pond,etc) happens in darwinism in reality is “just engineered” you know with body plans, functions, functional information, codes,etc… Well, according to your view, if you had been around at the time when all the species were created what would you have seen happening?JVL_{September 5, 2022
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Relatd: Really? How do you know this? I'm just saying that is the unguided evolution interpretation.JVL_{September 5, 2022
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But if you were there at the time they would have just appeared?
"Just appeared" (under the rock, from a pond,etc) happens in darwinism in reality is "just engineered" you know with body plans, functions, functional information, codes,etc...Lieutenant Commander Data_{September 5, 2022
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JVL at 108, Really? How do you know this? They both had infused knowledge. They did not go to bird school to learn how to use their beaks. Or to learn the difference between a tree branch containing grubs that could not be seen and a flower with nectar.relatd_{September 5, 2022
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Relatd: Atheist evolution would have you believe that these beaks developed in small steps over time. They would have starved to death if that was true. So atheist evolution is right out. They would have slowly changed their diet along with their beaks. But I'm glad to hear your perspective.JVL_{September 5, 2022
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I am not interested in Dawkins at all, nor am I interested in “atheist evolution”. But the quote in 56 is a theological statement. Theology is “the study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions”. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.) And you clearly state that the quote “provides an accurate and true description of how God works in the development of life on earth.” Good. What I am saying is that the Catholic position states well what “theistic evolutionists” that I know believe. The quote is a good description of a TE perspective. You have said that you think TE is flawed, but the things you have said don’t accurately describe TE. Perhaps you would like to reply to my post 89?Viola Lee_{September 5, 2022
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LtComData: Same time. Except life was engineered not “popped” from under a rock. But if you were there at the time they would have just appeared?JVL_{September 5, 2022
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