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Darwin’s valiant defenders contradicting themselves

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I’ve reported on this blog Coyne’s NewRepublic review of Coulter (go here) and Hotz’s LATimes review of Quammen, Brockman, an Shermer (go here). There’s an interesting contradiction between the two reviews. See if you can catch it.

Compare Jerry Coyne’s insistence that 

The real reason Coulter goes after evolution is not because it’s wrong, but because she doesn’t like it–it doesn’t accord with how she thinks the world should be. That’s because she feels, along with many Americans, that “Darwin’s theory overturned every aspect of Biblical morality.” What’s so sad–not so much for Coulter as for Americans as a whole–is that this idea is simply wrong. Darwinism, after all, is just a body of thought about the origin and change of biological diversity, not a handbook of ethics. (I just consulted my copy of The Origin of Species, and I swear that there’s nothing in there about abortion or eugenics, much less about shtupping one’s secretary.) 

with Quammen’s assessment of Darwin as endorsed by Hotz:

As Quammen so ably documents, Darwin clearly understood the challenge that natural selection posed to the conventional Victorian Christian faith that sustained his friends and family. No one was more reluctant to espouse it publicly or more distressed by its implications. Indeed, it steadily undermined his own belief in God, drove a wedge in his marriage and nearly broke his health. He brooded privately over his findings for 21 years before making them public.

 

Yet he finally embraced his brainchild, impelled by an unflinching intellectual honesty, the weight of the evidence and the imperative of an undeniable idea. “There seems to be no more design in the variability of organic beings and in the action of natural selection,” Darwin wrote, “than in the course which the wind blows.” 

 

As one of my colleagues asks, “Does anybody detect a problem here?  Coyne treats as perfectly obvious something that is the complete opposite of what Hotz regards as perfectly obvious.  And Hotz would be regarded as being on the same side as Coyne.  How long can the Darwinists get away with this?”

 

 

Comments
Tina said "Secondly, ethics are obviously possible without one holding to the idea that we are designed/created. Otherwise, atheists would all be noticeably immoral and without a principle upon which to draw. This is clearly NOT the case. So, why does the idea of purposelessness in the development of life matter so much?" to me problem with atheism or materialism isn't that the people who hold such views could( or should) be immoral.. its the systems that such people create which are largely immoral.. when it comes to a individual, he is guided by his innate spiritualilty which overrides most times his/hers worldview.. but when it comes to groupthink, its the worldview which dominates... there will then be numerous valid justifications( as per the atheistic worldview) trotted out that will easily justify Nazi like crimes... left to atheists alone, they sure are gonna devise a system that saves the earth from its problems by ensuring only the worthy 10% survive( as has been espoused by darwinists)...SatyaMevaJayate
August 1, 2006
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Scott: "Again, the issue is not how people choose to conduct themselves. I don’t take issue with what you say about how most people choose to behave. The issue is that they in principle, have no reason to behave a certain way. It is all meaningless if we are the result of purposeless mechanisms." We all have consciences. We don't need religion in order to set up a moral code that prevents us from killing each other. Example: the complicated social structures of animals. (I'm assuming that animals don't have a religion.) Yet, they don't kill each other randomly. Many higher animals exhibit types of mourning behaviour even. In principle they have no reason to behave this way, as they have no religion or moral codes. Yet, they do. And I think that how people behave is more important than the reasons they behave that way. I'd rather have someone randomly and purposelessly donate to the poor than someone righteously kill an "infidel." Scott: "And I don’t think there are too many historians who would agree that Hitler was a friend to Christianity. He paid lip-service to it in order to achieve his political and ideological goals." Hitler was also no friend of science. He paid lip-service to it in order to achieve his political and ideological goals. I'm not arguing that religion should be blamed for the holocaust. But in the same vein, I'm arguing that evolution is not to blame either. Tina, I agree with your post 100%. But, I do not see the importance of a belief "that our existence has a transcendent meaning which goes beyond the limits of matter and the limits of a short life on earth." I understand that many people do find it important. And I have no problem with that and I do not wish to undermine it. I just don't like it when I'm told that I should find it important, too.Strangelove
August 1, 2006
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Actually a great any athists ARE immoral. They are known as liberals. I am sure Ann Coulter would agree. Isn't she a national treasure and beautiful besides? How do you liberal Darwinian mystics like them apples? "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
August 1, 2006
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Tina I could not agree with you enough.jmcd
August 1, 2006
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Strangelove, “All of the atheist/agnostic people I know treat their lives and the lives of everyone on the planet with great respect.” I’m inclined to agree with this, as it is often--though not always--my observation as well. The question that intrigues me is not whether they treat people with respect, but whether such actions are consistent with their presuppositions. We’re told over and over again that life in the Darwinian model is unplanned and non-teleological. Millions of random events were pieced together by natural selection to create the dazzling array of life forms that we see today. And throughout uncounted millennia down to the present day, life continues in its undirected course as it always has, with we people as one of the millions of arbitrary results. Nothing special about us. No Intent. No Planning. And by all means, no Design. And yet, the individual naturalist stands on the pinnacle of this immense accidental iceberg and almost inevitably says something to the effect of “My life is meaningful,” or “I treat people with respect” (implying that their lives are meaningful), like you have. It’s not that they don’t do this, it’s that they don’t have a _basis_ to do it, because it fundamentally contradicts their stated world view. And I think this is inconsistent and, yes, even a leap of faith. I'm wondering how you reconcile this. -sbSteveB
August 1, 2006
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Strangelove, JasonTheGreek and Scott hit the nail on the head. Atheists and agnostics live in an inconsistent way (Thank God!). The issue here is the logical conclusions of your belief system. The logical conclusion of atheism (or any metaphysical materialism) is moral nihilism, the belief that morals are non-existent and that man is nothing more than a carbon-based "thing", no better than the dirt we walk on.Ryan
August 1, 2006
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it seems pointless to me to make a big deal out of the ethics which supposedly develop from a Darwinian perspective for two reasons: one, it is easily demonstrable, from a cursory glance at history, that the extremes of religious belief are also perfectly capable of serving as the basis for evil behaviors. trying to put the numbers killed by this and the numbers killed by that on a scale and saying "see, that one is worse!" doesn't make a good case for the superiority of non-materialist morality. Secondly, ethics are obviously possible without one holding to the idea that we are designed/created. Otherwise, atheists would all be noticeably immoral and without a principle upon which to draw. This is clearly NOT the case. So, why does the idea of purposelessness in the development of life matter so much? I think it lies in the realm of the ultimate meaning in life: ethics work just fine for this life, making things go along smoothly to a greater or lesser extent. But what they cannot do is inform the deepest human urge to believe that our existence has a transcendent meaning which goes beyond the limits of matter and the limits of a short life on earth.tinabrewer
August 1, 2006
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strangelove: see my post (#16). Again, the issue is not how people choose to conduct themselves. I don't take issue with what you say about how most people choose to behave. The issue is that they in principle, have no reason to behave a certain way. It is all meaningless if we are the result of purposeless mechanisms. And I don't think there are too many historians who would agree that Hitler was a friend to Christianity. He paid lip-service to it in order to achieve his political and ideological goals. I thought everyone was aware of this.Scott
August 1, 2006
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Of course there's a contradiction. Coyne is clearly saying that NDE doesn't conflict with the morality, the second author says that it clearly does. Tho, Darwin didn't lose his Christianity due to his theory. He lost his faith long before his voyage ever took place, and it was due to an argument from outrage that some of his family members who weren't Christian would end in damnation. The "Gott mit uns” beltbuckles were, of course, a use of propaganda. Nazi Germany was never any part Christian. They used the Vatican in the same way- you can't come out and let everyone know you're a madman, else no sane person would be fooled into following you. Hitler wanted to use Christians, claim he was on their side, and get them to support him. It worked. He was sly- that's why he got as far as he did. As for atheists- they clearly live a contradiction. Most atheists, at least. I'd guess that most claim meaning in their lives and that they aren't just purposeless accidental meat puppets, when deep down they know that their atheism leads to that very idea of life.JasonTheGreek
August 1, 2006
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Ryan: "If life arose out of a random, purposeless process, then it is only natural for people to believe that their lives are random and purposeless." It sure seems like it would be this way. But it just isn't. All of the atheist/agnostic people I know treat their lives and the lives of everyone on the planet with great respect. Sartre and Nietzche are responsible for their own words. They do not speak for everyone. Every person that ties Hitler with evolution always neglects to mention the famous "Gott mit uns" beltbuckles. Does that mean christianity leads to genocide? Genocides are as old as mankind. It was the infrastucture and technology of 20th century that allowed them to become so brutal. Attempting to blame it on the Theory of Evolution belies your bias.Strangelove
August 1, 2006
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Ryan beat me to the punch. And he is spot on. If we are merely molecules in motion then there is no absolute standard with which to juxtapose morality or the lack of it. We can do whatever feels good and not be concerned with accountability. It may be so that most atheists choose to adhere to moral standards, but in principle there is no reason they should. The issue here is not what people actually do, but rather it is with the "oughtness" in principle. If we are without purpose then there is nothing we "ought" to do with regard to morality.Scott
August 1, 2006
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Strangelove said, "Sorry for being dense, but what are those implications?" If life arose out of a random, purposeless process, then it is only natural for people to believe that their lives are random and purposeless. This was realized by Sartre (when he called all life "nausea"). Darwinian evolution has also been used by Nietzche to apply the survival of the fittest to everything. Hitler used Nietzche's ideas of the "Superman", a people who had evolved to be superior to other humans, and transformed that idea into the "Master Race" belief. Hitler made Nietzche required reading in Germany. The connection between Marx's love for Darwin's work is also worth noting.Ryan
August 1, 2006
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The argument about Hitler, Stalin and Mao being the worst ever is a little tired. The unprecedented population of the 20th century coupled with technology's unprecedented potential for slaughter helped make it the bloodiest century. There have been plenty of rulers of nearly every faith that had equally callous regard for human life. You can blame the ideology if you want but you also have to implicate nearly every religion on the planet if you wish to do so. There is also the point that the vast majority of evolutionists are not blood thirsty, Nihlistic tyrants bent on human destruction. Maybe all those people are simply intellectually lazy people who will fail to follow their worldview to its inevitable end and never realize their full atheistic mass murdering potential, but somehow I doubt that.jmcd
August 1, 2006
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Scott: "Coyne needs to realize that Darwinism most certainly has moral and ethical implications. Change over time does not. But the NeoDarwinian dogma which asserts that we are the product of random natural processes which did not have us in mind, certainly does. And history has demonstrated this to be the case." Sorry for being dense, but what are those implications?Strangelove
August 1, 2006
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The contradiction involves the fact that Coyne apparently doesn’t understand the implications either of Xianity or his own world view, while Quammen apparently does. Namely, the naturalism on which Darwinism is built says that "anything considered supernatural is either nonexistent, unknowable, or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses" (wikipedia). For Coyne to suggest that Xian morality has any meaning at all when the God upon whom all of it is based is nonexistent, betrays a level of ignorance that is surprising even for him.SteveB
August 1, 2006
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Larry Fafarman said: "BTW, the insistence that Darwinism is compatible with religion constitutes a failure to recognize that a literal interpretation of the Bible (or some other religious source) is actually part of the religious beliefs of some people." You are not quite precise with your statement. You emphasized/bolded "literal" in your statement. You should also bold "some people". (sorry, I don't know how to change the font from regular to bold)ofro
August 1, 2006
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The contradiction is obvious and not so subtle: either the puposeless processes which bring about life threaten the idea that we are intentionally created, or they do not. I find that Christians who claim to accept the random and purposeless aspects of Darwinism, do so only with the caveat "they are not really random and purposeless", which in effect makes them IDers with a little i's and little d's. THis in-between position may be fine and may turn out to be true (in other words, it may turn out that we can not actually reliably detect design) However, what this in-between position definitely is not is standard neo-Darwinism. This should be clear. I go around and around on this one. I wish someone out there who is an "in-betweeny" could clearly articulate for me, in their own terms, how they can simultaneously believe in purpose and purposelessness with regard to the same object at the same time. If they cannot, then they do not genuinely accept the modern version of Darwinian evolution.tinabrewer
August 1, 2006
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I think it's interesting that Quammen used the term "Victorian" to modify Christianity. Darwin came to the conclusion that evolution had to be true because the world around him did not match the idealistic beliefs *specific* to the Victorian Anglicanism of his day.Ryan
August 1, 2006
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Coyne needs to realize that Darwinism most certainly has moral and ethical implications. Change over time does not. But the NeoDarwinian dogma which asserts that we are the product of random natural processes which did not have us in mind, certainly does. And history has demonstrated this to be the case.Scott
August 1, 2006
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Is there really a contradiction? Coyne refers to Coulter’s assertion that “Darwin’s theory overturned every aspect of Biblical morality”, and states that “Darwinism, after all, is just a body of thought about the origin and change of biological diversity, not a handbook of ethics.” He is not referring to Darwin’s conflict with the biblical creation account. As to Hotz/Qammen’s assessment, it deals with Darwin’s struggle with the creation story; I don't see any ethical or moral implication in the description of Darwin's thought process.ofro
August 1, 2006
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I fail to see any contradiction. To see a contradiction you would need to see "Darwinism, after all, is ... not a handbook of ethics" as being inconsistent with "Darwin clearly understood the challenge that natural selection posed to the conventional Victorian Christian faith that sustained his friends and family." One would have to create a chain of reasoning that says that evolution disproves God's revelation to us which in turn disproves all of God's moral teachings to us. Challenging the conventional Victorian Christian faith is not exactly the same as challenging God's revelation in general let alone the actual existence of God. It could if one had completely static views of the divine I suppose, but it does not necessarily present such challenges. Like many Americans I found a Christian worldview to be compatible with evolution. I see science as our quest to understand how nature works. I also believe that God created the universe with intent and purpose. The fact that I cannot discern evolution's path or purpose does not make me believe that there is no larger purpose or intent in the process. It just means that I have come to the conclusion that there is no reason that I would believe myself to be capable of comprehending a power as great as God's. Hence the methods of creation may always be beyond our understanding. There is therefore no great dichotomy to overcome. We can understand nature to a certain extent, but to use that paltry understanding to make judgements about the divine seems foolish. I also believe that the origin of morality, whether mortal or divine, is quite irrelevant to morality's obvious utility in human society. Human society cannot exist without it. Human civilization is unimaginable without it. The more of us you pack into a space the more important, and complicated it becomes. Every religion incorporates it and every state codifies a limited version of it. Even if evolution disproved God's revelation, and I obviously do not feel that it does, it would not affect the apparent utility of morality. If I am honest with myself I realize that most of the time I treat people well because I generally like people, want people to like me, and want to make others feel good. I am not trying to be a better Christian or get closer to God, even though I should be. That would not go away even if all my faith disappeared.jmcd
August 1, 2006
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William Dembski said -- --- As one of my colleagues asks, "Does anybody detect a problem here? Coyne treats as perfectly obvious something that is the complete opposite of what Hotz regards as perfectly obvious. And Hotz would be regarded as being on the same side as Coyne. How long can the Darwinists get away with this?" --- I don't agree that Coyne and Hotz appear to be in disagreement here -- Coyne asserts that Coulter is wrong for rejecting evolution because of a conflict with religion and Hotz asserts that Darwin was wrong for initially rejecting evolution for the same reason. Also, Coyne spoke about Darwin's theory overturning "every aspect of Biblical morality" whereas Hotz spoke about Darwin's theory undermining "belief in God." Also, I think that it is unreasonable to expect that either Darwinists or anti-Darwinists always be consistent with each other in their views. BTW, the insistence that Darwinism is compatible with religion constitutes a failure to recognize that a literal interpretation of the Bible (or some other religious source) is actually part of the religious beliefs of some people.Larry Fafarman
August 1, 2006
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Ah, and here I agree with you for what may be the only time. Darwin most certainly was very concerned about the effect his ideas would have on the faith of his wife and others like her, whose lives were predicated upon the bible being the revealed word of god. What the reviewer of Coulter's book says is still true, however. Darwin doesn't discuss ethics or anything of the sort, as it pertains to his theory of the biological nature of the change in species over time. He simply does what a good scientist does and lays out his thesis and then the very substantial body of facts and explanation behind it. But hold a moment: Both reviews are correct. Darwin doesn't posit any sort of moral or ethical dimension to the way the natural world works. He simply describes it. At the same time, he well understood that his description of it, if correct -- and he certainly felt he was correct -- contradicted the strongly held views of many people he loved well concerning how the world they shared actually worked. And, far from the demon he is so commonly portrayed as in certain circles, Darwin the man was a sweet, loving husband and father, who troubled himself greatly at the possibiliy that his life's work would upset his friends and family. He troubled himself but chose the course of truth, making him not only an outlandishly insightful man of his time, but also a great model for times to come.mevolution
August 1, 2006
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I must admit, I am horribly confused. I thought Intelligent Design was a new, bold scientific theory. Does pointing out that two book reviewers might disagree on a non scientific matter count as scientific research these days?Donalbain
August 1, 2006
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Good question about the contrast between the two articles. Even within just the second review there's an ironic inconsistency: Darwin's "unflinching intellectual honesty" is portrayed as highly virtuous. Maybe it wasn't entirely clear yet to him how what he was publishing would contribute to eroding the footing on which ethics stand. It's more clear now (and Coyne is just plain wrong about this). So Darwin's "virtue" was his courage in contributing to making virtue meaningless.TomG
August 1, 2006
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I read the excerpts three times and still don't see a contradiction. I'm guessing that the perceived contradiction is between these two statements: "Darwinism, after all, is just a body of thought about the origin and change of biological diversity, not a handbook of ethics." "As Quammen so ably documents, Darwin clearly understood the challenge that natural selection posed to the conventional Victorian Christian faith that sustained his friends and family." The challenge that Darwinism presents to Victorian Christianity is empirical, not moral. Rejecting the Victorian creation story does not require one to jettison Christian morality, any more than rejecting Bacchus requires one to be a teetotaler. Darwinism was indeed a challenge to Victorian Christianity, but it does not prescribe a system of ethics.zapatero
August 1, 2006
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