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Dawkins on free will

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The first paragraph of the following quote appeared in a comment to Gil Dodgen’s post on the Quinn v. Dawkins debate on Irish radio. The succeeding paragraph is quite illuminating and included here. Question: What evidence (since Dawkins is so big on evidence) would help us to decide whether attributing responsibility to others for their actions is simply an adaptive device fobbed off on us by evolution or a reflection of an underlying moral structure to the universe (sometimes called “natural law” or “higher law”)?

But doesn’t a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused’s physiology, heredity and environment. Don’t judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?

Why is it that we humans find it almost impossible to accept such conclusions? Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing? Presumably because mental constructs like blame and responsibility, indeed evil and good, are built into our brains by millennia of Darwinian evolution. Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car. But I fear it is unlikely that I shall ever reach that level of enlightenment.

Source: http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html#dawkins

Comments
frisbee : You just don't give up huh? Still trying to objectively prove there are no objective values by assuming them yourself. Sheesh. You have already been shown to be out to lunch on the issue many times over - not my fault if you refuse or fail to see how obvious this is. "I have asserted that what you call objective morality is in fact fluid over time, or differs wildly between sects and among religions, and I substantiated that with examples." So very wrong it is shameful! Your examples are all faulty as stated and your statement is clearly a perfect example of "wrong" as I demonstrated. Either you know nothing of history, historical religions and society or you are terribly blind to the most obvious thing in this world. "There are extremely few culture & time invariant moral prohibitions: incest, and in-group murder, rape, and deceit are about the only ones that make the list." Way out in the boonies again! Ever heard of justice, goodness, mercy, truth, faithfulness, loyalty, kindness, patience, love, humility, candor, honesty, fair play, benevolence.......???? Apparently these words mean nothing to you - and logically so in your weird scheme of things. Find a religion that doesn't include *all* of these in it's creeds! You cannot and I dare to to try. You will fail as have all the others who tried. "No, I don’t." Well, yes you do. " Every religion has its own “objective” morality, and they are, to significant extents, mutually exclusive. " And no, their moral values are nothing like significantly different. Rather significantly similar!! A child can see this. Wake up and taste the wasps in your mouth! "Nothing is the product of random selection, because there is no such thing." Do you actually read what's there before responding? Apparently not. You're a very sloppy and negligent thinker - like the guy in the OP title. "By simply defining it out of existence, while ignoring the contained tautology." Nothing is easier than defining this *dilemma* out of existence. There is no dilemma in the 1st place! The pretended dilemma argues what it does not understand and founds it's argument on a falsity. In one phrase it may be undone - "God is the Law and the Law is God." God is the inspirited, incarnate, Living Law - they are one. Not independant entities. What is said of God is exactly what may be said of the Moral Law "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature" And of course, this is the view of the bible and Christianity. "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because *God is love*." Love is good willing. It is benevolence. It is seeking the highest good. "Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" The Law is One. An indivisible unit all summed up in one word "love" - agape - disinterested, unselfish good willing. "Do as you would be done by" is the worlds oldest, most universal command. It describes love which describes the Moral Law which describes who God is and what he is like. As fo tautologies and contradictions, the are the very well documented territory of Darwinism and atheism as you would know if you'd really done any proper homework. You've have swallowed many wasps while straining out the fleas of insignificant details. And you still show up here trying to prove there is no objective Moral Law by assuming one of your own feeble imagination. I suggest you change your approach and re-think your life. You are accountable to the absolute Moral Law whether you like it or not. Sorry, you lost a few posts ago. Seeing as I waste my time with you, this is my last entry on this thread. I suggest you go pawn off your cheap, broken-down philo on some dupe with no brains if you can - you should many on the 1000's of atheist "let's pretend there is no god" sites.Borne
October 28, 2006
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Borne: I can be demonstrably correct. I have asserted that what you call objective morality is in fact fluid over time, or differs wildly between sects and among religions, and I substantiated that with examples. This is not the same as relativism, at least in the sense you are talking about it. There are extremely few culture & time invariant moral prohibitions: incest, and in-group murder, rape, and deceit are about the only ones that make the list. Bad logic again. You assume every specific religions deity is fundamentally different and opposite to every other. Another falsehood. No, I don't. Every religion has its own "objective" morality, and they are, to significant extents, mutually exclusive. The reason Mark and I continually bring this up is because it is the fundamental problem you simply ignore. It is beyond human ken to objectively know whether the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Q'uran (to name a few) is the true depiction of God, his intent, and his direction. A plethora of objective moralities is simply a contradiction in terms. As I noted above, and I trust you agree, humans are social animals, unless you are a closet Communist, for whom human nature is purely a social construct, then you must agree that requires our behavior reflects that inescapable fact. “Like it or not, consensus response ...” Wrong again. If you cannot even see reality outside your own little atheist world of nothingness, how are you to judge? Simply saying "wrong again" falls somewhat short of persuasive. Outside that short list I provided above, perhaps you could give me even one example? And why are you here? Do you think you’re doing some objective “good” in the universe? Of course you don’t. You cannot in your own view! So your very presence is indication enough that you do indeed perceive a real objective absolute “truth” to exist. Well, that is certainly a good point, but not in the way you think it is. There is undoubtedly some set of objectively true statements about existence, and that set of statements might contain and equally true subset of invariant moral statements. One of which might be, BTW, the statement that moral codes are largely situationally dependent. The problem is, no one knows. Competing, irreconcilable, revealed texts are absolutely no help. Wrong again! Once again, Reason is what brings the moral considerations, not human response to material consequences. Human response is a combination of emotion and analysis, in varying proportions. And when you say I'm wrong again, perhaps you could give me an example of a moral prohibition that both imposes negative material consequences and lasts. Now this, is clearly a contradiction of Darwinian thought. We are the results of billions of unlikey concurrent accidents - random mutations and selection - yet we are not empty nor random you say?! No. It. Isn't. Nothing is the product of random selection, because there is no such thing. So the conclusion that naturalistic evolution would, by definition leave us without an inherent, and conflicted, nature is thoroughly wrong. What's more, it puts God in a box of your making. Who are you to say that God could not have chosen a non-random recursive system to produce a being capable of admiring His Creation? Those so-called answers to the Euthyphro dilemma boil down to this: Could God simply decree that torturing babies was moral? "No," the Christian answers, "God would never do that." It's not a matter of command. It's a matter of character. So the Christian answer avoids the dilemma entirely. By simply defining it out of existence, while ignoring the contained tautology.frisbee
October 27, 2006
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"You are the one who misses the point." Sorry but by the very fact that you persist in attempting to demonstrate that there are no objective moral values (material consequence based values are not objective and are often useless), you only dig in further to proving there are. Obviously you believe you are objectively "right". But then you cannot be "right" or "wrong" about anything if what you state is true! Relativism cuts its own throat and you know it. "Where it is similar to every other morality in history, then any particular notion of God is beside the point..." Very bad logic. Your conclusion does follow at all. You completely ignore the universality of morals and the universality of belief in a higher authority throughout all ages and in all peoples tribes and nations. "And where it differs, all claims to objective morality vanish, because the claims are dependent upon a subjective opinion as to which deity is correct." Bad logic again. You assume every specific religions deity is fundamentally different and opposite to every other. Another falsehood. Here you are brining in deity again. As I keep saying you and Mark are the only ones bringing this up all the time - yet no one has even gotten that far yet. Get over it. Moral values - their very existence - can easily lead us to conclude there must of necessity be some overgoverning power to moral law. But that is not and has not been to point. "Like it or not, consensus response to material consequences is the way societies decide right from wrong." Wrong again. If you cannot even see reality outside your own little atheist world of nothingness, how are you to judge? And why are you here? Do you think you're doing some objective "good" in the universe? Of course you don't. You cannot in your own view! So what's the point? It's all useless in the end, in your view, and will persih in short time. So your very presence is indication enough that you do indeed perceive a real objective absolute "truth" to exist. Otherwise you would know you are wasting your time trying to objectively prove there is none. Time which you could use to go out making whatever personal pleasures for yourself. And worse is that, like I said before, you keep focusing on external details - usually minor; polygamy, and etc. - in the actual outworkings of law, to find your arguments against objectivity. But even in this you must assume an underlying rule over-riding all. Your persistence of focusing on outward details is clearly a wrong approach. Why don't you focus on child rape? Find me a religion that has approved of this besides satanism or its cousins! There is none and never has been - except of course certain atheistic sex cults who believe there aer no objective morals and so they need not answer to anyone - like the afore mentioned NAMBLA member. You again miss the assumed underlying values you yourself are using to argue against objective values! "It is the human response to results that is the basis of what we consider “right” and “wrong.” Wrong again! Once again, Reason is what brings the moral considerations, not human response to material consequences. Is this the way you live every day? I don't think so, nor could you - you'd end up in the cell block of the asylum. "But human nature is neither empty, nor random" Now this, is clearly a contradiction of Darwinian thought. We are the results of billions of unlikey concurrent accidents - random mutations and selection - yet we are not empty nor random you say?! We are, in the materialist view, without soul, spirit, heart. Without free will. Without anything but bio-chem processes in our brains and nervous systems that dictate what we are and even what we believe, as per the OP - yet here you are stating the contrary -- when it serves your own purpose of course. "All such claims are comprehensively dismantled by studying the basis for any specific set of claims, the irreconcilable contradictions between competing claims, and the fluidity of claims over time." So, your proofs here, of being objectively right, are thus dismantled by the same rule of logic! It's rather surprising you can't see how obvious this is. I suggest you go back to post 62 and read the short quotes sections. This, and a hundred others, easily disproves your whole "contradictory claims" argument. It simply isn't true that there are so many contradictions in the base principles of morality. There is always and universally an underlying belief in justice, goodness and evil and wrong. No expetions outside of satanism and it's relatives. And even the "values" of satanism prove you wrong! "Do you agree with this, or not?" ref - deut. Actually - in context - I would agree with this. And if you fully understood what was at stake, in the global context of scripture, you too would agree. Supposing that one who leads others astray into lies is actually, within context again, leading them to "hell", what reaction would be the equivalent justice to the value of the precept in your view? Surely one who is clearly leading others, not to death, but to eternal death, ought to be considered worthy of death themselves. Of course, in your world, there are no such things so you couldn't agree. But suppose there really is a hell? Hmmm - would this crime not be worse than actual murder? Indeed. And that's a mere grain of reasonable analysis! But again, you pick up an outward working of the Hebrew civil law under the Mosaic agreement - once again assuming there to be something objectively wrong with such a command, and once again again missing the underlying eternal purpose! You have no foundations. Quite the contradiction - like all atheist thought. As for your persistence n referring to the old "Euthyphro dilemma" I suggest you read this: http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5236 and this: http://www.charlesgfinney.com/1840skeletons/sk_lecture23.htm No being can make law. But no law can exist without sanctions. And no sanctions can exist without a Ruling, conscious Magistrate to adiminster them...reason it farther if you can - the ultimate conclusions are obvious enough. After this you ought to re-think your life. I'm not going to answer your so-called dilemma here. It's already been done. It's a bit like answering the "can god make a rock so big he can't lift it?" nonsense. And again, I believe, your persistence in attempting to prove yourself objectively right here is already ample proof that you are objectively and sadly very wrong. Perhaps : "Oh God, if there is a God, save my soul, if I have a soul." would be an adequate prayer for you. You don't have a soul, you ARE a soul, you have a body. I've already taken too much space and time here and won't make a novel of it - So nuff said.Borne
October 27, 2006
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Borne: As I said, you do not understand the quoted texts nor their context, nor the christian view of this. Yes, you did say that. But you failed to provide "context," or the Christian view. And even if you had, you would still be faced with the task of how the addition of context, or a sectarian point of view would not hole the concept of Objective Morality below the waterline. As for understanding, the words are perfectly clear. If understanding requires abandoning vocabulary and syntax, then claims to objective morality aren't worth the page they are written on. You miss the point again. Why does Islam have morality in the 1st place? And why is it’s general morality similar to every other morality in history? I beg to differ. You are the one who misses the point. Where it is similar to every other morality in history, then any particular notion of God is beside the point (as the Euthyphro dilemma points out). And where it differs, all claims to objective morality vanish, because the claims are dependent upon a subjective opinion as to which deity is correct. Appealing to divine authority to decide whether beating disobedient women is moral, as just one glaring for instance, is an exercise that contradicts itself before it so much as gets out the door. Belief in justice, right, wrong, etc proves nothing. What does prove something is that the details behind each of those concepts varies so wildly between divine diktats, and even within a set of divine diktats over time. You do assume there is an external, true, objective Moral Law running behind everything. It is a comforting notion, but it simply doesn't stand up to inspection. Merely asserting the existence of something does not make it so. Of course in your strange and illogical view, only material results are the objective rule, so being wrong on this should not bother you since there is no material result! Please do me a favor. Review the history of usury in Christianity. Then demonstrate how that history supports your contention that material results do not have any effect on divine diktat. Like it or not, consensus response to material consequences is the way societies decide right from wrong. I trust you agree with the assertion that polyandry is wrong, even to the point of being sinful. Even if that rule didn't exist, give human nature and material consequences, we would have arrived there in any event. There is an up until recently isolated tribe in the New Guinea highlands where women mate with many men. In that tribe, such conduct is "right." At least until recently, they had no idea that paternity is particular; they believe(d) that it is shared. Given the high male mortality, the belief in shared paternity, and the resulting polyandry, increases the likelihood there will be some "fathers" around to care for "their" children. Is polyandry right, or wrong? Mormonism claims a divine diktat for polygamy. Religious freedom in the US goes a long way, but it doesn't go that far (isolated areas of the four-corners area notwithstanding). It is easy to make a material consequences argument against polygamy. It is, however, impossible to argue divine will as a tie breaker with a Mormon polygamist. That impossibility is enough to torpedo objective morality (although I'm happy to entertain a reasoned argument why not.) In case that isn't reason enough, consider this entirely plausible thought experiment: A plague sweeps across the US, killing 75% of the male population, but leaving the female population untouched. How long do you think polygamy is going to remain "wrong?" Of course results can never occupy such a role since they are themselves amoral. Yes, results are amoral. But human nature is neither empty, nor random. It is the human response to results that is the basis of what we consider "right" and "wrong." Again your hatred of christianity and indeed of Christ is showing. You have a serious problem. That conclusion is fallacious. If you can demonstrate that the tenets Communism doesn't accord better with Christ's teachings than market capitalism, then I shall apologize for being wrong on the facts. Rather, it is an analytical argument that claims of possessing objective morality are simply wrong. All such claims are comprehensively dismantled by studying the basis for any specific set of claims, the irreconcilable contradictions between competing claims, and the fluidity of claims over time. My argument stands, or falls, on its internal coherence and its proper use of evidence. Nothing I have written here can by any stroke of the imagination be taken as a hatred for Christ or Christianity. Where I have made evidentiary mistakes, then please point them out with justification -- simply citing the all purpose "context" is insufficient. However, unless you can point out something I have written as hateful, or even derogatory, than I suggest your conclusion here is not well supported.frisbee
October 26, 2006
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Frisbee: "The Divine diktat directs Jews to kill evangelizing apostates, does it not? ...Do you agree with this, or not? If you do not, then you are a claimant of another era contradicting the clear divine diktat of another era." As I said, you do not understand the quoted texts nor their context, nor the christian view of this. Like I said before, you assume too much - in your despite against truth which is quite obvious here. "Islam does not, in many respects, constitute a totally opposite morality?" You miss the point again. Why does Islam have morality in the 1st place? And why is it's general morality similar to every other morality in history? Do they believe in justice, righ, wrong, mercy, truth, goodness, etc.? If so then that alone proves my point and proves you wrong. There is the assumption of an external, true, objective Moral Law running behind everything said in this forum and behind every religion and every concept of justice. Denying it will change nothing. And every attempt you make to prove this truly "wrong" it only proves it more. Of course in your strange and illogical view, only material results are the objective rule, so being wrong on this should not bother you since there is no material result! ;-) You specialize in focusing on irrelevant details. You sift out a flea and swallow a wasp. "Results. Liberal democracy, ... produce vastly superior material results — the only objective rule that matters — in comparison to all other organizing principles." Another sifting of fleas to swallow wasps. Why do results import if there are no objective values on real right and real wrong? What underlying rule makes material results the rule of right and wrong? You have assumed such a rule in your very statement. Persistent self-contradiction and denial of reality is all atheism ever does. You have merely assigned your own deemed "superior" material results the role of "higher authority" - the rule by which you judge. All while remaining blind to the underlying assumption that something makes results a rule of action! Of course results can never occupy such a role since they are themselves amoral. I noticed you simply ignored the rest of my arguments. "The attendant morality is thereby deemed “good,” regardless of how many ways it, in contrast to Communism, contradicts Christ’s teachings. " Again your hatred of christianity and indeed of Christ is showing. You have a serious problem. You would no doubt have been one of the heralds of "Crucify him!" back in the day since he would have turned your whole philosophy on it's dirty little butt with one or two sentences. You keep bringing in Christ, the bible and christians and seek to dismantle them with ill fashioned reasonings. I could refer to some good psy's if you like?Borne
October 26, 2006
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Jaredl: On such a view, God’s commands may be objectively good, yet our reasoning would be unable to access the necessity or goodness as such of those commands. There are several problems here. First, you have no means of determining how your conception is more objectively true than a competing conception. But even more importantly, your conception removes from humanity any possibility of comprehending what that morality might be, which would seem to reduce its effectiveness a bit, don't you think?frisbee
October 25, 2006
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JehU That is false. There is such a thing as objective morality, as right and wrong, good and evil. The fact that you have talked yourself out of acknowledging such things is irrelevant. Okay, prove it. Provide to me the objective morality, and demonstrate how to assert its truth value in comparision to competing objective moralities.frisbee
October 25, 2006
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What if we posited an eternal, uncreated reality in which God exists, and it is with respect to that reality that God commands what he does in this world? On such a view, God's commands may be objectively good, yet our reasoning would be unable to access the necessity or goodness as such of those commands.jaredl
October 25, 2006
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frisbee,
I never said there was. My clear point is there is no such thing as objective morality, and claiming that the invocation of divine diktat provides it is simply illusory.
That is false. There is such a thing as objective morality, as right and wrong, good and evil. The fact that you have talked yourself out of acknowledging such things is irrelevant.Jehu
October 25, 2006
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JasonTheGreek: Sure there is. You look at each revealed religion. Does the Holy book stand up to the various tests? It is historically true? Is it true in what it says of other things? The Bible fares no less well in this respect than the Q'uran. You cannot use the Bible to dissuade a devout Muslim about Allah's intent for the ummah. You can't even use the Bible to adjudicate competing claims within the Bible. Is it moral to follow God's direction and murder apostates evangelizing Jews? If not, why not? As for the so-called “Euthyphro Dilemma”- this has been answered, and I think successfully by many. Here are just 1 example: I have never seen it answered (and, unfortunately, your link didn't work). Either we have an inborn moral compass, in which case God is not required for morality, or God is required, and our notions of right and wrong are wholly subject to God's whim. Meaning it is moral to beat disobedient women, or murder evangelizing apostates, simply because God says so. The alternative to acknowledging an inborn moral compass is perilously close to asserting The Good German defense. And sure there’s a way to decide which knowledge of God is the proper knowledge. Clearly LDS doesn’t stand the test, as the empirical claims made by the founders were wrong. No, there isn't. Sorry, I'm wrong. There is: material consequences. The material consequences of Ferdinand and Isabella expelling the Jews proved their particular knowledge of God, no matter upon which part of the Bible it was based, was "wrong" because it didn't work. Fundamentalist Islam, although it closely hews to the Q'uran, is "wrong" because it doesn't work. Similarly with respect to the Bible. Our contemporary moral code would scarcely be recognizable to those who lived by the Bible five hundred years ago, and would, in many respects, be repellant to Jesus himself. Unfortunately, if we were to all live by Jesus' teachings, we would quickly propel our society straight back to the stone age. Claims to use any instance of a god to substantiate a particular moral conclusion are doomed to failure wherever they contradict another such claim. Absent the evidence of material consequences, you have plumbed the depths of moral relativism, because you have absolutely no leverage over the other equally committed believer. The fact is- we’re still left with this…if man is mere chemicals, chemicals know not right nor wrong. That statement is devoid of meaning. Chemicals can neither know, experience, nor remember anything. Yet somehow we have knowledge, experiences and memories. So to somehow conclude that a whole clearly greater than the sum of its parts is incapable of having inborn mental constructs that lead to the ability to ascertain "right" from "wrong" requires completely ignoring all the other components of humanity (and life in general). We’re still back to the claim that what is good is “what works” or what the majority agrees is right. It seems to me that the majority of people in the United States have no problem with sex before marriage, but I think it’s wrong, because the Word says it’s wrong. Reason tells me that this is good practice…if everyone followed this moral dictate- there’d be no AIDS. The one way to wipe out AIDS? You have completely contradicted yourself in the space of one sentence. Even if the Word had never been uttered, you would still conclude pre-marital sex is wrong, because it doesn't work, and if the Word subsequently came out telling you pre-marital sex was OK, would you then suddenly change your mind? Further, this substantiates what I have said above. Our societal attitude towards pre-marital sex is different than it was fifty years ago, because it "works" in ways that were impossible before reliable birth control. Now you, or I, may dislike that change, or find it completely immoral, but that doesn't alter my point in the least. Pre-marital sex is tolerated now because, for most people, it works better than the absence of pre-marital sex. There’s also still NO objectivity to your “morality” explained above. Agreeing that something is right doesn’t make it objective. Objective is empirical- it leaves out all emotion. I never said there was. My clear point is there is no such thing as objective morality, and claiming that the invocation of divine diktat provides it is simply illusory. And your last sentence seems like it could have benefitted from some reflection. Until we enlist Mr. Spock to make our moral judgments, or until we all become Spock, divorcing emotion from moral judgments makes no more sense than separating fish from water. What compels us to do right or wrong? Laws? Punishment by the police? Why not gather together to form a society with no laws, no police, no punishment. Every man for himself. Why care if your ulitmate destiny is wormfood in a mere 30, 40, 50 yrs? Humans are social animals. How would a society based wholly on self-centered hedonism fare against a more prudent society? More fundamentally, you are posing a self-defeating situation: humans that are irrevocably social will somehow suddenly decide to act in such a way as to completely forfeit all the benefits of society?frisbee
October 25, 2006
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"Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?” Either God's will is conditioned by his nature (contradicting classical theology), or God's will is arbitrary - child murder could conceivably be right (commanded by God) in some possible world. The Bible would even lend support to the second view, if I were a classical theist.jaredl
October 25, 2006
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Greg Koukl does a good job of answering the Euthyphro Dilemma in the "Stand to Reason" article. However, I actually disagree with his statement about "God is good" being a useless tautology. I personally find it to be a very useful tautology. It could be reduced to simply "God is" or "Good is". (Zipporah: "Well, honey, how was the shepherding today? Learn anything new?" Moses [somewhat dazed]: "God is") God and Good are inextricable, infinite and eternal.Jack Golightly
October 25, 2006
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JTG - What I am saying in my final paragraph is that systems which contain an obvious contradiction on logical grounds need not be examined further. Such a system is classical theology (God as the ground of all being, creation ex nihilo coupled with the problem of evil, the contradiction between free will and omniscience) and all its religious offshoots, which are creedal Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. As far as Smith's prediction of the advent of Christ - "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the acoming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter. I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." This text is found in Doctrine and Covenants, section 130, available on the LDS website.jaredl
October 25, 2006
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The formatting (in my browser at least) made some odd symbols in your last comment jared, so part of what you were saying was lost on me, so I didn't cover it...if I did, then I'm not 100% sure what it was you were saying. Good news tho- my comments looks normal to me.JasonTheGreek
October 25, 2006
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I chose LDS off the top off my head. Smith made empirical claims of the return of Christ before his death. He's been dead a long time now, and I see no Christ on earth. That's an empirical claim we can debunk given the evidence. Thus- we shouldn't put much credence into their particular moral system, as it was forumlated by the same persons who were wrong with their clear empirical claims. If their moral claims closely match my own, so what? If someone says 2+2=5, that is, indeed, somewhat similar to 2+2-4. The latter is correct, the former incorrect. Should 4 be judged by those who claim 5? LDS, continuing with the example, have taken Christianity and added their own stuff to it. Smith was clearly wrong in what he claimed, his prophecies were bogus, thus we can conclude it's a false system of beliefs. The parts they borrowed from the Bible need not be voided because of their incorrect statements. It seems you're saying we should ignore all theology a priori? As, it's clear (to you, it seems) that it's all bogus? Scholars throughout the ages have dealt with the issue of evil and free will. Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying in that regard tho. Either way- we can easily look to any revealed religion to see if the claims made within in hold up to scrutiny. If they totally fail, we mark that religion off the list. If the religion passes the test, we look further and investigate. If it holds up across the board, we can safely say the moral code within it holds up as well. Non-revelead religions don't help you out much, as they basically claim 'all of this seems like it was brought about by God, I feel it in my gut...thus it's so.' There's really no evidence to back up such a claim outside of gut instinct, which is fairly worthless when deciding empirical matters.JasonTheGreek
October 25, 2006
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Frisbee - Within the human realm — which has only revelatory texts to go on — there is no which divinity is the correct divinity, hence the correct claim. What I am saying that there is no way to decide which knowledge of God is the correct knowledge. If it is your position that God's will is ONLY known by revelatory texts, then yes, your position is effectively agnostic - that God cannot be known. But it appears your assumption - that there is no way to know which divinity is the correct divinity - is without foundation. The most you can say is you don't know which divinity is the correct divinity, if any. If you can extend that conclusion to anybody else upon theoretical grounds, I would like to see that argument. JasonTheGreek: And sure there’s a way to decide which knowledge of God is the proper knowledge. Clearly LDS doesn’t stand the test, as the empirical claims made by the founders were wrong. Thus, if they have a particular moral code to go along with their incorrect basis, you can ignore the moral code. I am curious - why have you chosen the Church of Jesus Christ to illustrate your point? And, since we're on the topic, which of their empirical claims are incorrect? Moreover, at which point is their moral code dissimilar to your own? If theirs is so similar to yours, why shouldn't we likewise dismiss yours? A theology that is logically inconsistent, as is any variant of classical theology - creedal Christianity, Judaism, or Islam - can be safely ignored as the source of a valid divine command, wouldn't you agree? Such a system, given the ground rules of logic, is false. I don't see a need to evaluate a system which begins with "1 == -1", for such a system can prove anything; that, analogously, is why none need examine the classical religions (re: the problem of evil given creation ex nihilo, the problem of free will vs omniscience, and so forth).jaredl
October 25, 2006
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Frisbee - I just followed and read your link to the Euthyphro Dilemma. The author has absolutely got it. I only wish I could write as well as does. I am bowing out of this and referring others to that thread.Mark Frank
October 25, 2006
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Well that didn't work for some reason. The quote should have been "That is an incorrect summary of my position. More correctly, I assert that there is no way, within the human realm, to adjudicate competing claims based upon divine diktat." with my comments starting with: "Sure there is. You look at each revealed religion."JasonTheGreek
October 24, 2006
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That is an incorrect summary of my position. More correctly, I assert that there Sure there is. You look at each revealed religion. Does the Holy book stand up to the various tests? It is historically true? Is it true in what it says of other things? When speaking of the Bible, for example, you can look to the prophetic claims and the claims of a resurrected man. If you research these and conclude they are all true, then you can easily conclude that the particular moral code in the book as true as well. As for the so-called "Euthyphro Dilemma"- this has been answered, and I think successfully by many. Here are just 1 example: STAND TO REASON Just because someone claims a dilemma doesn't necessarily means a dilemma exists. And sure there's a way to decide which knowledge of God is the proper knowledge. Clearly LDS doesn't stand the test, as the empirical claims made by the founders were wrong. Thus, if they have a particular moral code to go along with their incorrect basis, you can ignore the moral code. The fact is- we're still left with this...if man is mere chemicals, chemicals know not right nor wrong. We're still back to the claim that what is good is "what works" or what the majority agrees is right. It seems to me that the majority of people in the United States have no problem with sex before marriage, but I think it's wrong, because the Word says it's wrong. Reason tells me that this is good practice...if everyone followed this moral dictate- there'd be no AIDS. The one way to wipe out AIDS? To wait until marriage before you have sex and stay with that partner for life. Hard for many to accomplish this goal? Sure...but it would work. It "works" in one sense- so it must be "right" then, no? Thus, if you've had premarital sex, you're in the wrong. Getting rid of AIDS is surely an idea that "works" in the sense that it's a benefit to mankind. So- by the definitions of what morality is above- premarital sex is evil. I doubt you guys who have said what is right is "what works" believe as much! There's also still NO objectivity to your "morality" explained above. Agreeing that something is right doesn't make it objective. Objective is empirical- it leaves out all emotion. If it's based on emotions, it's subjective, because not all of us have the same emotions on the subjects at hand. So- we evolved a sense of morality...that sense is merely "what works" and what most humans agree is "right" and what is "wrong." As I said- this isn't objective at all. It's 100% relative. But even worse- how do chemicals in the brain even get to the point of creating a mind that sets boundaries of "what works" (aka right and wrong)? Chemicals simply do not care. Chemicals created humans...in turn created society, in turn created societal norms and customs- which somehow equal right and wrong? We're still left with massive gaping holes into how unthinking uncaring chemicals could ever do this, let alone the fact that chemicals, even if they could to this, could never dictate right or wrong...thus making right and wrong not only arbitrary but totally meaningless in the end. Worst of all- if man and mind are mere chemicals, we're all destined for an eternity of nothingness. So- even if we could say right and wrong evolved chemically and they equal "what works"- why should any man care to do right or wrong? What compels us to do right or wrong? Laws? Punishment by the police? Why not gather together to form a society with no laws, no police, no punishment. Every man for himself. Why care if your ulitmate destiny is wormfood in a mere 30, 40, 50 yrs? None of it should matter outside of enjoying your VERY limited time here, but we have ingrained in us a sense that ultimate wormfood is nonsense and that there's something more...something higher to reach. To attain something beyond mere "what works." Did mindless chemicals also somehow program this fairy tale into us as well? What for? What NDE selective advantage does it have? Do selfish genes somehow thrive when people fight religious wars, die, and aren't able to have children? This worldview will never reach objective moral status. Objective moral status must come from OUTSIDE. If humans construct morals, then they cannot possibly be anything but subjective, as we are creatures with emotions, biases, worldviews, etc. from the time we're born and grow into adulthood.
JasonTheGreek
October 24, 2006
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I’m not Catholic, so the Pope isn’t relevant to me.. You probably didn't mean it that way, but your comment comes across as an ad hominem. Pope Benedict's argument stands or falls on its merits, not whether you are Catholic, or even if you are antagonistic towards Catholicism. For the record, I am not a Catholic. Why do you assert there is no way, within the human realm, to adjudicate competing claims based upon divine command? Because any attempt to do so constitutes nothing more than a tautology. Since the basis for all competing claims is the underlying divine command, using divine command to adjudicate is a perfect example of circular logic. Within the human realm -- which has only revelatory texts to go on -- there is no which divinity is the correct divinity, hence the correct claim. What I am saying that there is no way to decide which knowledge of God is the correct knowledge. If you don't believe me, try debating Allah's intent for the ummah with a devout Muslim.frisbee
October 24, 2006
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I'm not Catholic, so the Pope isn't relevant to me.. And I would say, in theory, supposing there exists an accessible God, there is a way to contradict, compellingly so, opposing systems. Why do you assert there is no way, within the human realm, to adjudicate competing claims based upon divine command? I must repeat, it sounds a lot like you are saying that even if there is a God, he cannot be known. If he could be known, then there would be a way to adjudicate the competing claims by simply gaining this knowledge from God. Also, reason is only as good as the axioms you carry into it. Those axioms, you see, are precisely the points under dispute.jaredl
October 24, 2006
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jaredl: Who says that the authority of any systems reliant upon Divine Command is unassailable? That's true by definition, isn't it? The 10 Commandments are true because God says they are, and all arguments to the contrary are a priori wrong. Islam will rule Earth, because Allah says so, and all arguments to the contrary are a priori wrong. My position, and yours, regarding the objective reality of either Allah or God is completely irrelevant. To those for whom either the Bible or the Quran are revealed truth, all contrary arguments are simply non-starters. You presume, it appears, though you haven’t explicitly stated it outright, that there is no God, or if there is, God cannot be known. That is an incorrect summary of my position. More correctly, I assert that there is no way, within the human realm, to adjudicate competing claims based upon divine diktat. The only alternative is through reason, based on the material consequences of each claim. That means we must have within us (through whatever cause) a shared, inborn, moral compass. (c.f. Eurythphros dilemma) But don't take my word for it. Pope Benedict XVI had something to say on this subject recently.frisbee
October 24, 2006
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Frisbee, Here's the rub: How do you go about adjudicating between two completely opposed statements based upon unassailable authority? Who says that the authority of any systems reliant upon Divine Command is unassailable? Or is it your position that both positions are appeals to an imaginary authority? A Faith based argument is powerless to contradict a competing Faith based argument. You presume, it appears, though you haven't explicitly stated it outright, that there is no God, or if there is, God cannot be known. You also implicitly seem to be defining faith as "belief without evidence." From these presumptions, your position seems to follow (roughly). Am I accurately summarizing your position?jaredl
October 24, 2006
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Borne: Wrong. First, you quite clearly do not understand either mentioned book, if indeed you’ve ever done anything more than a superficial reading. Deu 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. The Divine diktat directs Jews to kill evangelizing apostates, does it not? Presumably you are an adherent of Judeo - Christian morality. Do you agree with this, or not? If you do not, then you are a claimant of another era contradicting the clear divine diktat of another era. You will not find anything so great as a totally opposite morality. Islam does not, in many respects, constitute a totally opposite morality? Finally, it is worth mentioning that all particularly revealed religions establish exclusionary moral communities: behavior considered immoral when directed at a member of the community is sanctioned when directed at someone outside the community. First, upon what assumed rule does one consider a consequence “superior”? Results. Liberal democracy, market economics, and protected private property rights produce vastly superior material results -- the only objective rule that matters -- in comparison to all other organizing principles. The attendant morality is thereby deemed "good," regardless of how many ways it, in contrast to Communism, contradicts Christ's teachings.frisbee
October 24, 2006
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frisbee: Because competing claims, such as the example above, are both based on “on account of God said so.” How do you go about adjudicating between two completely opposed statements based upon unassailable authority? There are two options, really: brute force or sophistry. Seriously, though, just because you can not resolve opposing claims between rival authoritative codes doesn't mean you can't not ajudicate *within*those systems internally based on their respective codes, assuming they are more or less coherrent. You can not discount some system or tradition simply on the basis that another exists with conflicting moral positions. It may well be the case that one of the two systems is superior in the sense that problems within the other system will ultimately bring about its downfall.great_ape
October 24, 2006
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Peter: First off, "Baroque" and "Monarchic", like "Spartan" and "Meritocratic" are not generalizations. They are reasonably well defined terms allowing the categorization of various belief systems and, thereby, allow grouping those systems by their characteristics, rather than their details. Those categories are either accurate and defendable, or not, but they are neither horrible nor tired. Second, and I probably should have been more expansive, what I wrote was complimentary towards Christianity. Where I would have once discounted the possibility, on further inspection, Christianity appears to be sui generis in that it manages to be simultaneously both Spartan and Meritocratic. Given the parameters of Spartan / Baroque and Monarchic / Meritocratic, there are four possible combinations. Of those, Spartan - Monarchic and Baroque - Meritocratic belief systems are always unstable over time, becoming either Baroque - Monarchic, Spartan - Meritocratic, or extinct. Well, almost always. While I think Chesterton's conclusion is faulty, and his writing seriously depletes the world's supply of words, his argument does point to why Christianity, as a belief system, is so unique. Consequently, I have come to conclude that whatever the merits of its objective basis, subjectively Christianity has a great deal going for it that other religions, Islam in particular, do not. JasonTheGreek: So, what if murdering millions of people “works” for most humans 10 yrs from now? That would be, in your mind, good, because it “works.” Nonsense.,/i> Has murdering millions of people ever worked in the past? Under what set of conditions could it possibly work in the future? When Francis Fukuyama became notorious, his thesis was that there is no conceivable alternative to a Liberal society based upon limited government and market economics. But let's take your point as given. For the survivors, murdering millions would be good, because it worked. In fact, that is precisely what Islam hopes to achieve, in precisely the way Allah directs. God, in the guise of Allah, says to kill millions is good. Does that make it good in your mind? If not, why not? And if it came to pass, does it not seem likely the survivors will have viewed all the murder as good? There simply is no such thing as religiously derived objective morality. Instead, we are left with consensus judgments based upon exigent circumstances. That doesn't make morality arbitrary, because clearly some decisions produce better results within a set of circumstances than others. Regardless of your religious foundation, if you want to become rich, don't get divorced. but a thousand years from now murdering innocents could be considered “good” by most people. Does that make it ultimately good? Well, several hundred years ago, murdering innocents was considered good by most people, as established by religious authorities. (If you don't believe me, read The Witches Hammer) Did that make it ultimately good? What if, related to the circumstances of the Germans at the time, it WAS best to round the Jews off? Is that somehow good because of it? Do not pose a "what if" when the results are already known. Attempting to eliminate the Jews was a positive harm to the Nazis as it caused some of Germany's best minds to join its enemies, and diverted substantial resources. As well, Ferdinand & Isabellas bout of Semitic cleansing, religiously justified, caused positive harm to Spain. I submit that things we view as "wrong" invariably produce materially bad outcomes, hence posing such thing as somehow succeeding is to ignore history. On that subject- being born with right and wrong…what mutation could possibly choose right and wrong? How does a mutation know the difference? Humans are invariably social animals; the idea of a lone human has no more meaning than that of a lone ant. Unless you are a Communist, and I know you are not, then humans are not born tabula rosa -- our existence as social animals absolutely requires certain patterns of conduct (for instance, one thing you certainly don't have to teach a two year old is the notion of reciprocity).frisbee
October 24, 2006
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Jaredl: I’m confused - what is the shaky ground you refer to? A Faith based argument is powerless to contradict a competing Faith based argument. The only means of doing so, as Pope Benedict did recently, which is to rely on Reason. Which material outcome do you prefer, a society that sanctions beating wives, or one that doesn't? Indeed, why is there no possibility of discerning the truth of competing moral claims, within the constraints of the divine command theory? Because competing claims, such as the example above, are both based on "on account of God said so." How do you go about adjudicating between two completely opposed statements based upon unassailable authority?frisbee
October 24, 2006
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frisbee: "Many moral claims of one era are completely contradicted in another by claimants of the same divine diktat." "...the demands of Deuteronomy and Leviticus" Wrong. First, you quite clearly do not understand either mentioned book, if indeed you've ever done anything more than a superficial reading. But once again, why are the bible and the divine being introduced here? You assume too much. Next, you ought to look up the similarities between vastly differing religion's claims of what is morally right and wrong - you'll see just how intensely alike they are across geo-cultural boundaries and across millenia. You will not find anything so great as a totally opposite morality. You will only find differences in things that are cultural beliefs or issues on how some rule is to be delimited - nothing like a major denial that any moral values exist or any total contradiction. And if you do find blatant contradictions on fundamental rules, you will also find that such denials are universally made by groups that had subjected themselves to things like satanism, demon worship, postmodern idiocy and the likes and yet who still had their own set of values they considered objective! a few short quotes : "I have not slain men" - ancient egyptian - confession of a righteous soul - book of the dead "in Nastrond I saw murderers" - Old Norse - Volospa 38,39 (nastrond=hell) "do no murder" - hebrew -exodus 20 "Slander not" - ancient babylonian - Hymn to Samas "do not bring a false witness against your neighbour" - hebrew exodus 20 "utter not a word by which anyone could be wounded" - hindu "never do to others what you would not like them to do to you" - ancient chinese - analects of confucius "speak kindness...show good will" - Hymn to Samas "men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do one another good" - roman cicero De Off. "man is mans delight" - Old Norse Havamal 47 "what good man regards any misfortune as no concern of his?" - roman Juvenal15, 140 "love your wife studiously. gladden her heart all your life" - ancient egyptian - ere "has he appraoched his neighbour's wife?" - babylonian - List of Sins "you shall not commit adultery" - hebrew "In Nastrond I saw beguilers of others' wives" - Old Norse Volospa "take no vengeance though they do you wrong" - Old Norse Sigdrifumal, 22 "do not avenge yourselves" - christian Paul "I have not stolen" - egyptian - confessions... ibid. "do not steal" - hebrew "to wrong, to rob, to cause to be robbed" - babylonian List of Sins ---------------- "More properly, moral relativism claims that moral judgments are contingent upon exigent circumstances, which is not the same as anything goes." "Once upon a not at all distant past in the US, girls could be married as young as 13. Not any more. What was once moral no longer is — the moral judgment is based upon circumstances. Of course circumstances must be taken into account on most moral judgments. And even there you have missed the fact of the underlying global rule upon which any judgment ought to be made at all. Your conclusion is wrong. Your conclusion leads to situation ethics. You also fail to mention the fact that things like child rape have nothing to do with circumstances - it is an absolute evil - that's it. Many other crimes fit the bill as well. No circumstances will allow it in any age or culture, so you can't get away with your avoiding the obviously objective by citing the obviously circumstantial or cultural. Your example of age of marriage is based on what? Sexual maturity rate factors in human growth at different times in a given social order. But the underlying judgment is based on a global and objective rule of decency and honesty. So your argument fails again. "... means there simply is no such thing as Objective Morality" Indeed, and upon what rule, authority or foundation do you base this judgment? Is it your own subjective opinion? A collective subjective agreement? How can this be proven? Obviously if your statement is true then it cannot be proven - making it false. Quite a dilema there. It will always turn out to "anything goes" when taken to it's logical conclusions, which you have missed. You then say, "What does not follow, however, is that the consequences are just as arbitrary. Some moral judgments have superior material consequences to others" So now we are judging the consequences of actions and making that our "higher authority". Again, why should the consequences be considered? First, upon what assumed rule does one consider a consequence "superior"? Do you mean simply a quantitative, numerical rule here? If so, why should we care about that? Upon what objective rule does quantitative consequence need consideration? So what if some actions have "superior material consequences"? Back to square one, what is the objective rule for deciding that material consequences have objective value? Value that your very statement assumes in it's form! Sorry, but you can't win this argument on that basis - in attempting to prove yourself objectively right you will always have intrinsically proven yourself wrong. I strongly suggest people here read Lewis' Abolition of Man - viewable here: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm#1Borne
October 24, 2006
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Mark: "There is also a large amount of agreement about which judgements are correct ...That is the basis of objectivity in morals..." Here, you've merely displaced your "higher authority" - avoiding to call it such - to general human agreement. Why should humans have some supposed "value" to attach to actions and motives in the 1st place? According to what rule of moral judgment can humans collectively decide whether a thing is wrong or not? See, you've gotten no further towards answering this. You merely avoid it. What you say is simply - majority rules. And so what the majority says is and must be really "right". Whatever the majority says is right today, tomorrow's majority may say the complete opposite and it is still right!? Makes no sense. And then, you claim that that is sufficient for an objective moral foundation. Of course such is merely a subjective, collective agreement again. You take a multitude of subjective ideas, instead of just one, mix them up, and then call the parts that fit objective? "Does a scientist need to appeal to a higher authority to provide a justification for his observations? ..." If you're talking about mere observations then it is irrelevant to the subject at hand. We're not discussing what one may observe or not - we're addressing the evaluations, conclusions one makes after the observation. We're not merely discussing whether humans have moral values but what those values mean, if anything. Observed human reactions do not constitute a rule of right and wrong. IOW, *your* authority is general human consensus. But as others pointed out - what gives general human consensus any authority? You say, "We appeal to our emotions; in the reasonable belief ..." Change the emotions, as the other guy said, and everything else changes - you've gotten nowhere at all in that case. But here you're mistaken - we do not make judgments based on emotions but on reason. If judgments were to made on emotions there would be total chaos in the courts and society in general including your own life. Why do you think there exists such a global consensus on basic morals in the 1st place? Why do morals exist at all? These are the questions naturalism cannot answer with any sufficient logic. You get to general consensus as your higher authority and stop there without asking the above. Morality is not a physical attribute of genes. It's very existence is evidence of a metaphysical mind. It deals ultimately, with intention which implies volition and free will. But where does the very idea of "values" come from? You say, "Evil people are still responsible for their crimes.... This position is logical, consistent and ..." No it is not logical - taking a materialist view, you are trying to squeeze a metaphysical construct out of sugars and enzymes and say that morality is really no more than that. And you did not answer my question post 30: "Show how this is so if you can!" "Furthermore, adding some other element, such as God’s word, does not make moral judgements any more objective." You are the only one here mentioning God's word! I've not mentioned God or his word even once.Borne
October 24, 2006
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You appeal to the reactions of others and most of them agree with your own conclusion of what is right and what is wrong…the fact that most of them agree with your view makes it objective. That is, in essence, a popularity contest in my book.
Jason - there are subtle but important distinctions here. Let me try to explain with an a closely related example. Consider "good" in the non-ethical sense of a good e.g. a good tool such as a drill. What makes a drill a good drill? It clearly isn't just the most popular drill. An aggressive marketing campaign can make a very poor drill popular. However, it is also clearly related to what people like about drills. If you describe a drill as being "good" - then you may base that description on its power, weight, ease of handling whatever. But underlying that is an assumption that other people will find those features attractive. It is this that makes your statement "this is a good drill" reasonably objective. If there was no conensus about what was appealing about drills then your statement "this is a good drill" would become equivalent to "I like this drill" - the fact that there is a consensus about drills gives the statement much more status and objectivity.Mark Frank
October 24, 2006
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