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Dawkins on free will

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The first paragraph of the following quote appeared in a comment to Gil Dodgen’s post on the Quinn v. Dawkins debate on Irish radio. The succeeding paragraph is quite illuminating and included here. Question: What evidence (since Dawkins is so big on evidence) would help us to decide whether attributing responsibility to others for their actions is simply an adaptive device fobbed off on us by evolution or a reflection of an underlying moral structure to the universe (sometimes called “natural law” or “higher law”)?

But doesn’t a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused’s physiology, heredity and environment. Don’t judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?

Why is it that we humans find it almost impossible to accept such conclusions? Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing? Presumably because mental constructs like blame and responsibility, indeed evil and good, are built into our brains by millennia of Darwinian evolution. Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car. But I fear it is unlikely that I shall ever reach that level of enlightenment.

Source: http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html#dawkins

Comments
Mark: "A truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system does NOT make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility." Show how this is so if you can! "Assigning blame and responsibility is NOT a useful fiction (but nor does it require an appeal to some higher authority). " False. The rule by which ones measures the moral correctness between two actions must exist or no measure is possible. Self-evident. There must necessarily be an external Law to which all are subject otherwise all rule of law becomes merely subjective and arbitrary. The standard atheist doctrine is that there are no objective moral values. But upon what objective basis is this claim made?! None whatsoever! And to try to prove the contrary is to prove that you yourself believe you have some higher authority to use to do so! As CS Lewis wrote: "If nothing is self-evident, nothing can be proved. Similarly if nothing is obligatory for its own sake, nothing is obligatory at all." --The Abolition of Man "The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of planting a new sun in the sky or a new primary colour in the spectrum..." - Christian Reflections "The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike..." Morality is a question of conduct in accordance with some rule of conduct -- by free choice. No free choice = no possibility of morality. Rocks don't have morality. If there is no such thing as an absolute moral law by which all motives, and consequently actions, are weighed, then there is no such thing as morality itself. If there is no higher authority then all becomes my idea versus yours - everthing turns to chaos - "every man did that which was right in his own eyes" - but there it is again - every man has a concept of right and wrong - the moral conscience - "the law written in the heart". The source of morality cannot be either an individual perception nor a cultural collective agreement - for upon what do we base and measure the rightness of our agreement? a simple ex: 2 people argue over something - one says, "that's not fair, you have no right to do that!" the other responds, "You're wrong, not me, I have every right!" They are not merely saying - your behavior doesn't please me, they are both appealing to some standard outside of themselves that they believe the other ought to obey. That thing by which we measure each others morals cannot itself be one of things measured. If moral law were merely an individual choice you would still have to find out why their is a choice to be made in the 1st place! This moral Law, is like the law of mathmatics - real and absolute. One cannot make 2+2 = 5 no matter what. And no one can ever find a rightness in say, child rape and murder, no matter what some culture may say! We could not, without this higher authority, say that the morals of Abraham Lincoln were "better" than the morals of the Nazis. So the rule by which we may judge between Nazi morals and Christs' morals is that higher authority you deny! Can you see how obvious this is? You yourself are appealing to it in your own arguments against it! There must of necessity be an ultimate rule against which all moral conduct is evaluated. For upon what real objective value system would you base your evaluation? So Mark, your position is clearly erroneous.Borne
October 21, 2006
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RE: 26 - Lurker, I have neither the patience nor time to unpack your misreading for you. The argument is straightforward. RE: 23 - GilDogen How is it known that time, space, and matter had a beginning?jaredl
October 21, 2006
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great_ape: "How can we trust, for instance, the very faculties of mind through which we have come to these conclusions about the good nature of the deity and the absurdity of questioning it?" Indeed. It would seem that humans have to begin with the assumption that our reasoning faculties really are capable of insight into these matters. If we don't, then we may as we put this nonsense to bed, pop open a beer, and watch some TV, or whatever else suites our fancies. Otherwise, if we assume we have insight, and our reason is not an illusion, then by god, something other than random chance is responsible for this insight. The old philosophers called it "the law of nature", ie, the law of human nature. If we assume our reason is valid (and we all tacitly do anyway, otherwise all is folly) it is a default proof that there is a "deity" that endowed us with such. It is at that point when we can really get down to business about all the rest of the important questions.mike1962
October 21, 2006
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russ: "God is not in the same category as humans. We consider a king’s edict arbitrary, because he is also a man like us." we agree, in essence, on the theological point. One could play devil's advocate and press the issue further from a sort of Cartesian doubt perspective. How can we trust, for instance, the very faculties of mind through which we have come to these conclusions about the good nature of the deity and the absurdity of questioning it?great_ape
October 21, 2006
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Jaredl: 4. If God has always believed a certain thing, then it is not in anyone’s power to do anything which entails that God has not always believed that thing (Assumption: Fixed Past). This is where the wheels come off your proof. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that knowledge of a future event causes the event to a happen. Also, when is the past anything other than fixed? It's always fixed. Explain the causal relationship between knowledge of a future activity and said activity.Lurker
October 21, 2006
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Great_ape: "For a king to declare that the essence of justice is precisely that which I, the king, say is “just” also goes against the common concept of justice. It is somehow, in our minds, not arbitrary. " God is not in the same category as humans. We consider a king's edict arbitrary, because he is also a man like us. The gods of the Greeks and Romans were much more like humans than the biblical God. That God stands above human judgements about good and evil, since his very character defines good, and evil is simply a corruption of his goodness. The idea of "judging" the biblical God is presposterous since he supplies the faculties to make such moral judgements.russ
October 21, 2006
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russ, An eternal God does not necessarily solve solve the problem of infinite regress. The problem has been around at least since Plato: basically, Socrates argues against the notion of "what is good consists of what is the will of the gods." Substitute here the deity(s) of your choice. He argues there there must be some standard against which we can judge god/God's will as good. Otherwise what the deity dictates can not be properly said to be good in the sense that we commonly understand "good." The same would apply to "justice." For a king to declare that the essence of justice is precisely that which I, the king, say is "just" also goes against the common concept of justice. It is somehow, in our minds, not arbitrary. I think theologically, you get around this by sticking to your guns and maintaining that the ultimate Good is, in fact, the will of an omniscient and eternal being. The will of such a being is beyond arbitrary choice. And if that concept of "good" as God's will is in discord with everyday usage of "good," then so much the worse for everyday usage. Everyday usage, in this view, is merely a distorted reflection of the true meaning of the good.great_ape
October 21, 2006
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We know that matter is not eternal because the universe (matter, energy, space and time) had a beginning. The infinite regress problem does not exist because time does not extend infinitely into the past. It had a point of origin. Actually, the word eternal is not really the right term to use in this discussion, because "eternal" implies an infinite amount of time. Whatever caused the universe existed before time began (although I shouldn't use the phrase "before time began" because "before" implies a relationship within the time domain, but you get the point). As a result of all of this, the question of who designed the designer is meaningless. The regress stops at the origin of time itself. C.S. Lewis talks eloquently about the universality of a sense of transcendent moral law. Dawkins bemoans the universality of belief in God. Could it be that these things did not evolve in us through natural selection? Could it be that we were programmed that way?GilDodgen
October 21, 2006
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Mark Frank: What if an eternal God, created the universe? Doesn't this solve the problem of infinite regress? After all, atheists must assume that matter is eternal. Why does "matter is eternal" make more sense than "God is eternal"?russ
October 21, 2006
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I should say, rather, that he is not asking if this picture of reality is correct but instead appears to be asserting it is. He asserts it, as you well know, based on commonly held materialistic understanding of the universe. The state of the art in modern understanding, if you will. If he were a reasonable person, he would be posing this for the sake of argument and admit that our current understanding of reality is far too inadequate to assert any such thing unequivocably. Given other positions he has staked out, I'm not so certain he is that reasonable.great_ape
October 21, 2006
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I'm no Dawkins fan, but most of you are failing to distinguish the question of whether what he thinks about free will is true or not from question of practical policy. From my reading, he's putting aside the practical question for a moment and simply addressing the rationality, the logic, of assigning blame in the manner that we do. If we believe in a "clockwork" materialistic universe--or even a pseudo-clockwork universe including quantum randomness--then the way we dole out blame based on personal responsibility, as if people had a real choice, is irrational. Many of you expressed doubt that Dawkins himself lives by this philosophy, but he tells you right out that he does not--and fears he never will. Of course such a worldview is unworkable in practice for human society--no argument there from me--but that's not what he's speaking to here. He's simply asking if that view is correct. This leaves us with the question of whether someone or some society could be "enlightened" by possessing a dysfunctional, yet accurate, portrait of the world.great_ape
October 21, 2006
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Mark Frank: The addition of some higher authority does not help for well known reasons of infinite regress. (How do we recognise the higher authority’s laws are moral?) "Well known reasons of infinite regress"? Please explain what this means. I bet there's lots of people--including me--that probably don't subscribe to this assertion. As to the parenthetical statement you make, why that's the easiest answer in the world: when God made us, he made us with the ability to recognize moral law. What's so hard about that?PaV
October 21, 2006
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mentok:
It is a logical endgame for the intellectual materialist who sees logic as superior to emotion and empathy. Like a vulcan from Star Trek he believes that our lives are best experienced in an emotionless android like eating machine state.
Maybe the simpler (and more probable) explanation is that Dawkin's materialism deadens the voice of his conscience. I don't think Dawkin's lives an "emotionless android" life for a second. It's just his way of justifying whatever he (and, per his reasoning, everyone else) wants to do.PaV
October 21, 2006
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Mark Frank It seems to me evolution explains both moral and immoral behavior as needed. Isn't that convenient? How do you propose we confirm or falsify either of these evolutionary hypotheses so we know it's evolution and not something else? If there's no such thing as free will, how does evolution have anything to do with the choices we make? Or for that matter, what does our own illusory decisions have to do with anything? If there's no such thing as free will you might as well just do whatever feels good and don't worry about morals because you're going to do it anyway. You have no choices. Choice is an illusion just like design is an illusion. Dawkins sure has a lot of illusions. DaveScot
October 21, 2006
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Wow. I knew Dawkins was not the most intellectually gifted person in the world but that was really astonishing. People get upset for various reasons which have nothing to do with genetics. While different philosophies give different accounts on the cause of human emotion, one that would seem to be externally true is that people feel empathy. We know what what pain and loss feels like and therefore when we become aware of other peoples pain and loss it is common to relate to them through a shared experience. If we care about others and we don't have a philosophy which sees a cosmic justice playing out all the time, then we will react to the cause of that suffering, whether that pain is to ourselves, or to others we empathize with, in an emotional fashion. If you cause me enough pain I will cry out. If I don't believe that I deserve that pain then depending on the amount of pain I experience I will react emotionally accordingly. It is the nature of an intellectual being that emotions are part of the intellect. We will react emotionally to the degree we have learned to react. If you harm a child before it has reached a stage of development where it comprehends sufficiently, then it will not emotionally react to pain beyond it's limited intellectual capacity to understand the cause and effect of the pain. Empathy and emotion are learned, they are the product of a sufficiently advanced intellect. Dawkins thinks that what materialism teaches him is that nothing matters because we are here for a fleeting moment, that we exist for only an extremely short sojourn through eternity. Therefore we don't matter. Nihlism is what Dawkins has come to. It is a logical endgame for the intellectual materialist who sees logic as superior to emotion and empathy. Like a vulcan from Star Trek he believes that our lives are best experienced in an emotionless android like eating machine state. Our emotions should use our knowledge of materialism and nilhism to conquer petty feelings which don't matter in the grand scheme of an eternal nothingness. Dawkins clearly sees himself in that vain. He is the great prophet of materialism bringing his gift of nihlism to the dumb masses whose lives are governed by delusions and who care about that which is not worthy of our concern because we will all be gone forever in a blink of an eye. He brings despair and darkness as his great gift, he is the prophet of damnation who wants extinguish the light of eternal life in us all. He seeks nothing less then to send people to hell on earth. People who believe in god and the eternal gift of life are the people he seeks to stab though the heart and send them tumbling into the abyss of eternal darkness. He should be ashamed, and so should the rest of the evolutionist evangelicals who really seek no less.mentok
October 21, 2006
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the smiley above should be an 8 )jaredl
October 21, 2006
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Dawkins is not the only person who runs afoul of free will on theoretical grounds. 1. It has always been true that I will sin tomorrow. (Assumption: Omnitemporality of Truth). 2. It is impossible that God should hold a false belief or fail to know any truth (Assumption: Infallible Foreknowledge). 3. God has always believed that I will sin tomorrow (from 1 and 2). 4. If God has always believed a certain thing, then it is not in anyone's power to do anything which entails that God has not always believed that thing (Assumption: Fixed Past). 5. It is not in my power to do anything that entails that God has not always believed that I will sin tomorrow (from 3 and 4). 6. That I refrain from sinning tomorrow entails that God has not always believed that I will sin tomorrow (necessary truth and from 2; Principle of Transfer of Powerlessness). 7. Therefore, it is not in my power to refrain from sinning tomorrow (from 5 and 6). 8. If I act freely when I sin tomorrow, then I also have it within my power to refrain from sinning (assumption libertarian free will). 9. Therefore, I do not act freely when I sin tomorrow (from 7 and 8).jaredl
October 21, 2006
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I do not think that the exsistance of a God is such a ridiculous possibility that it should be excluded from thought. I do not understand why God seems so anathema to Dawkins. "Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car." - RD I believe if we do have an example of species that cannot comprehend the concept of blame and responsibility. I believe that such a species species can be found in the zoo. Perhaps if we do grow out of such concept we might belong there as well.WinglesS
October 21, 2006
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A final thought-Dawkins new book is called the 'God Delusion'. How can anything be deluded if there is no agency?Understanding something requires agency -in order to be deluded we must think,thinking is an act of intent not determinism.WormHerder
October 21, 2006
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You can't have any sense of goal directedness if everything is just a machine. My experience of machines is that they are wholly determined. I have always thought that if a worldview cannot be lived out consistantly then it is wrong completly. Dennet describes the need to adopt an 'intentional stance' which is inconsistant with the naturalistic creed -it means treating people as if they were goal directed for convienances sake,because it allows acurrate predictions ofbehaviour etc, even though, according to naturalism, intentional stance is yet another illusion like the illusion of design.WormHerder
October 21, 2006
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In a sense, Dawkins is a culture warrior. There are some strengths to his point of view and some weaknesses. The free will isssue is one of the difficulties. He has made deterministic statements in the past. In the present, it seems that he is backing away from these statements or trying to divert the issue when it comes up. Why? I think he knows it's not a winner, and like all folks whose worldviews are held with passionate certainty, he wants to win.bj
October 21, 2006
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Thanks Krauze. I didn't check the original source. I don't see how anyone could live according to the views Dawkins espouses, and I doubt dawkins himself does. Irrespective of our philosophical views about the source and true nature of free will and choice, from a practical point of view it is certain that human beings have a sense of choosing, and some control over what we choose to do. I can't imagine how someone like Dawkins could actually live his life according to his own precepts, and there is no way that society could function if we adopted his views.Jack Krebs
October 21, 2006
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"Presumably because mental constructs like blame and responsibility, indeed evil and good, are built into our brains by millennia of Darwinian evolution...My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car. " Are there any examples in history of people who have "grown out of" this delusion of good and evil? Just because Dawkins hasn't achieved this enlightened state, doesn't mean others have not done so through discipline and determination, or as one might say "a triumph of the will".russ
October 21, 2006
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Hi Jack, "Who is the person talking in the quoted paragraphs?" Check out the link provided. It's quite clear that Dawkins is the author of both paragraphs. BTW, "Dawkins' deterministic idea" has also been discussed here.Krauze
October 21, 2006
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It is false dichotomy. Our moral behaviour can be explained causally by looking at us as evolved animals and also in terms of responsibility, praise and blame. The two are compatible and so the issue of evidence for choosing between them does not arise. The addition of some higher authority does not help for well known reasons of infinite regress. (How do we recognise the higher authority's laws are moral?) A truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system does NOT make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility. Assigning blame and responsibility is NOT a useful fiction (but nor does it require an appeal to some higher authority).Mark Frank
October 21, 2006
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He asks : "Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing?" He needs to ask the parents of murdered children and the victims of crime. If this man and those like him could experience crime victimization themselves then we would witness whether this spurious and pernicious doctrine is practiced in their lives as they pretend it should be. As foolish as it is, this whole discourse completely desolves any kind of responsibility and, in fact, good and evil themselves! Again, the postmodern man's unfathomable dilema. Moral suicide. Now in this light what does that make of Dawkins' infamous "...or wicked..." comment? The usual self-contradiction of the atheist mind. Under this inane scheme of things crime no longer exists - nor does any merit or worth. Law is purely arbitrary and punishment is neither wicked nor just. So why even the comment about "visceral hatred"? More self contradiction. Thankfully "thinkers", if one may call them such, like this do not and cannot live according to their pretended beliefs. They would be taken away by the "nice young men in the pretty white coats" to the "funny farm" if ever they attempted to live as though no one, including themselves, bore any real responsibility for their actions. Again, intellectualized and legitimized insanity insues. "But I fear it is unlikely that I shall ever reach that level of enlightenment." And I fear he will never attain to any level of enlightement whatsoever. Indeed, in his own doctrine, enlightenment does not exist - just pulsing neurons within a condemned to vanity and death piece of organized flesh.Borne
October 20, 2006
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"we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing" There you go, the psychology profession knows just how hard "fixing" is. Seems that anyone who isn't "working" should therefore be "disposed of." If we "dispose of" all the people who don't fit our grid, whether they be physically, mentally or morally inadequate, then surely the great god of natural selection will smile on us and make us into a superior race. See how sensible this evolution thing is?bFast
October 20, 2006
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Argghh. Lousy typing and worse proofreading - obviously I meant paragraph, and I didn't mean to end the last sentence with both a period and a question mark. Sorry.Jack Krebs
October 20, 2006
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A clarification question: Who is the person talking in the quoted paragraphs? Are both paragraphs by Dawkins, or is the second paragrpah a response to the first paragpraph, which was asked by someone else.? ThanksJack Krebs
October 20, 2006
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Dawkins' dangerous idea has been tried many times, and I assure you, it is quite literally dangerous.Jaz
October 20, 2006
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