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Doug Axe now replies to James Shapiro: Can we let the science decide?

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Readers will recall James Shapiro, author of Evolution: A View from the 21st Century. Bill Dembski asked him, based on his observations, Why aren’t you a design theorist?

Which, in the context, is somewhat like asking, “Well, if you agree with me about how badly things are run down at City Hall, will you join Citizens for Municipal Reform?”

Well, Shapiro replied, giving his objections, and now Biologic Institute’s Doug Axe has replied to Shapiro here:

I think we all agree that science should be the arbiter here. Naturalism and ID both make testable claims about how things happen in the real world, so it ought to be possible to evaluate these positions by evaluating their respective claims.

If crutches are devices for propping up lame positions, then I completely agree that they should go, but let’s be careful to call a crutch a crutch. As an ID proponent, I’ve put forward the scientific case for thinking that the thousands of distinct structures that enable protein molecules to perform their specific tasks inside cells cannot have arisen in a Darwinian way. Moreover, the facts of this problem seem to preclude any naturalistic solution, Darwinian or not.

Shapiro is looking for a no-Darwin but no-intelligence  solution. Does it exist?

Also, Axe’s senior scientist Ann Gauger offer some thoughts on Dembski’s questions here.

0 to 60 quick, on Shapiro:

Antibiotic resistance: The non-Darwin truth

“Four kinds of rapid, multi-character evolutionary changes Darwin could not have imagined”

“Key non-Darwinian Evolutionary Scientists in the 20th Century”

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Comments
True, but materialistic naturalism (and Darwinism as an epitome of it) willfully ignores certain obvious information and control related things. This has been repeated so many times... If Darwinist explanations were adequate 150 years ago in the absence of knowledge in some specific areas of the theory of information and biochemistry, now it is no longer enough. Before Darwin, scientists were quite happy with something that 'appealed to the supernatural'. If we ask ourselves what did Darwin actially, did he show something rigorously? The answer is, no. He hypothesised and philosophised. While some may be happy with what he wrote, others are free to question it. It does not stand scrutiny. Trouble is it is not accepted by a majority today. Well, as we know from the history of science, things do change. People are always angree at something which questions their position. At one point, Georg Ohm's colleagues ridiculed his work on electricity calling him all sorts of names. Where are they now?Eugene S
January 19, 2012
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Petrushka, What you don't get about the proponents of ID is those of them who are scientists are very, very smart. Michael Behe, Jonathan Wells, Stephen Meyer, William Dembski, and particularly Douglas Axe would never be so stupid or careless as to make rookie mistakes in the application of probability theory or statistics in a published paper. Not gonna happen.Bruce David
January 18, 2012
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Which came first, the chicken or the egg?Petrushka
January 18, 2012
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Upright, While Mr. Griffin ponders your question, perhaps you could answer the question Nick Matzke posed to you three days ago, which you have been avoiding ever since:
if a gene is duplicated, and one copy get modified such that it has a different specificity or function, has the amount of information in the genome increased?
champignon
January 18, 2012
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Mr Griffin, You seem to be someone who has more answers than questions, so I thought you might shed some light on some observable (and very interesting) physical dynamics. If it's not too much of an imposition, would you mind being interuped just for a moment in order to address such an issue, in earnest of course? All life on this planet stems from a formal system where two material objects have a purely relational coordination to one another, yet they do not interact, and both must be in place for the system to function. Can you shed some light on the (apparently) obvious origin of such a system?Upright BiPed
January 18, 2012
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It's not the calculations; it's the narrowness of the sampled population.Petrushka
January 18, 2012
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Yes, and Axe has answered them. He's way too smart to make a mistake in his probability calculations in a paper prepared for publication.Bruce David
January 18, 2012
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I'm not claiming anything other than that Axe's scientific research has demonstrated that Darwinism in particular and a naturalistic explanation of life in general is untenable. You're drawing the conclusions. I think that if you conclude that this implies that life has a supernatural cause, you should have the courage of your convictions and abandon your commitment to a materialistic philosophy.Bruce David
January 18, 2012
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I use the standard and accepted definitions of both science and theory.
Which are…?
Buy a dictionary or a vowel- what is wrong with you people?Joe
January 18, 2012
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I have it and it says it: Shubin said- SHUBIN SAID- he was looking where he did because he had data that put the transition from fish to tetrapods between 385- 365 million years ago.: Chapter 1 of "Your Inner Fish" tells us why:
Let's return to our problem of how to find relatives of the first fish to walk on land. In our grouping scheme, these creatures are somewhere between the "Everythungs" and the "Everythings with limbs". Map this to what we know of the rocks, and there is strong geological evidence that the period from 380 million to 365 million years ago is the critical time. The younger rocks in that range, those about 360 million years old, include diverse kinds of fossilized animals that we would recognize as amphibians or reptiles. My colleague Jenny Clark at Cambridge University and others have uncovered amphibians from rocks in Greenland that are about 365 million years old. With their necks, their ears, and their four legs, they do not look like fish. But in rocks that are about 385 million years old, we find whole fish that look like, well, fish. They have fins. conical heads, and scales; and they have no necks. Given this, it is probably no great surprise that we should focus on rocks about 375 million years old to find evidence of the transition between fish and land-living animals.- Neil Subin pages 9-10
However new data has tetrapods appearing over 390 million years ago, meaning his data was out-dated and is wrong.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Axe has shown using results that he reached experimentally in his field (cell biochemistry) that a Darwinian or other naturalistic explanation for the biochemical mechanisms in the cell is so improbable as to be virtually impossible. This is a scientific result.
Depends what you mean by "a scientific result". There have been plenty of criticisms of his probability calculations.Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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Bruce, If the facts preclude a naturalistic explanation, as Axe believes, then what is left? A non-naturalistic (aka supernatural) explanation. Or are you claiming that there is such a thing as a non-naturalistic, non-supernatural explanation?champignon
January 18, 2012
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According to Shubin he wouldn’t have been looking there had he known about the data that came after his discovery. ya see he said he was looking where he did because he thought tetrapods didn’t exist yet- however they did. He was looking in the worng strata for the transition he said he was looking for. Read “Your Inner Fish” chapter 1.
I've read it. It doesn't say that. You are making the "why are there still monkeys?" mistake.Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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I use the standard and accepted definitions of both science and theory.
Which are...?Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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Elizabeth, I use the standard and accepted definitions of both science and theory.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Peter:
So, how come Shubin knew exactly where to dig to find Tiktaalik?
According to Shubin he wouldn't have been looking there had he known about the data that came after his discovery. ya see he said he was looking where he did because he thought tetrapods didn't exist yet- however they did. He was looking in the worng strata for the transition he said he was looking for. Read "Your Inner Fish" chapter 1.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Peter:
So what is the most parsimonious explanation then?
One design.
Given that you already said you actually believe the designer is in fact an alien race that colonized earth and that we in fact are those aliens I have to wonder if the tent can survive getting any bigger?
Actually I said I am OK with the notion that we are decendents from an other-world civilization.
So, Joe, if the designer is aliens where did they come from?
can't say until we can study them, duh.Joe
January 18, 2012
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'Can we let the science decide?' The perfect rejoinder, Mr Dembski. It is regrettable that elementary didacticism should occasionally be necessary, but Mother Nature, alas, is a sham and it is important to insist on it.Axel
January 18, 2012
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champignon:
Another case of an ID proponent appealing to the supernatural. I show that Dembski does the same thing here and here. Could we drop the “ID isn’t religious” pretense?
Axe has shown using results that he reached experimentally in his field (cell biochemistry) that a Darwinian or other naturalistic explanation for the biochemical mechanisms in the cell is so improbable as to be virtually impossible. This is a scientific result. It is you that draws the conclusion that he is appealing to the supernatural. He has not done that. He has merely demonstrated the inadequacy of the existing scientific theory. If you believe that the only possible explanation for what Axe has shown to be true using the scientific method is that there is a supernatural cause for the existence of living things, then I suggest you re-evaluate your materialism.Bruce David
January 18, 2012
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Darwinism is a scientific hypothesis formulated in the ignorance of the mid-19th century. It's since been falsified by nearly every single branch of biology. Unfortunately, somewhere in between the time it arrived on the scene and the present day, it evolved into less of a scientific hypothesis and more of an atheistic religion. It purported to explain the huge design of life, absent an actual designer?exactly what atheists needed for "intellectual fulfillment." This is the real reason why the various forms of "blind watchmaker" evolution are so ardently defended. Not to protect science, but to protect that illusion of "intellectual fulfillment." It's no coincidence that a high percentage of Darwinism's most notable defenders are atheist: Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, Eugenics Scott, P.Z. Myers... The list could go on for ages. Sure, there are some confused theists who support Darwinism for various reasons (they've been taught it as fact for so long, they give in to peer-pressure, they have financial commitments, etc.), but the percentage of atheists amongst Darwin defenders cannot be ignored, nor can it be written off as coincidence. So, yes, Darwinism is clearly a religion, and yes, every single overzealous defender of Darwinism should be labeled a religious fanatic. As someone who doesn't subscribe to any religion, I can say with nary an ounce of doubt that the average Darwinist is far more fanatical than the average Christian.Jammer
January 18, 2012
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“I reject I.D. because I absolutely hate the implications of life being designed!”
What exactly are those implications then? If we are designed by a material intelligent much like us then what comfort does that give the theists exactly? It's not a very good designer. Almost autistic I'd say. Sure, the fine detail work is great, but putting the food down the same pipe as the air? Please! And looking downstairs, a similar basic error was made!
the distinction here isn’t between natural and supernatural, but natural (created by nature) and artificial (created by intelligence).
So the implication is that we were designed by aliens who may or may not be (crop circles?) still around. How do you feel about that, exactly? Does it worry you? Does it make you anxious?Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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jammer,
the distinction here isn’t between natural and supernatural, but natural (created by nature) and artificial (created by intelligence)
So, jammer, you would presumably then agree that the distinct structures that enable protein molecules to perform their specific tasks inside cells were created by aliens who visited the earth a very long time ago? After all, if they are natural and created by intelligent action the only option you have is that it was done by aliens. Very long lived aliens who act in ways that exactly mimic what we would call evolution. And who never, ever, pass innovations over clades.
The brilliant Doug Axe recognizes that the origin of life, and, subsequently, the entire domain of biology, falls under the latter: artificiality.
Do you think the aliens still come to visit? That perhaps they visited recently in human history? That some of the stories about the golden city are really true? If it's not space aliens then what is it? It can't be a supernatural deity, that option is not even on the table if natural (created by nature) and artificial (created by intelligence) is all there is. Do you and Joe believe in the same aliens, out of interest? Or are there sub-groupings there also? Where did the aliens come from by the way? Did they evolve originally?Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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What is/are your definition(s) of science and of theory?Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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By "naturalistic solution," Axe is clearly referring to the (supposedly) intelligence-free forces of nature, in and of themselves. The origin of Stonehenge is also said to preclude any naturalistic solution. Does that mean Stonehenge is the product of the supernatural? Of course not. As kairosfocus has repeatedly pointed out, the distinction here isn't between natural and supernatural, but natural (created by nature) and artificial (created by intelligence). The brilliant Doug Axe recognizes that the origin of life, and, subsequently, the entire domain of biology, falls under the latter: artificiality. You three, Liz, Nick, etc., refuse to recognize it, not because of an absence of evidence or convincing arguments, but because you have a dogmatic, religious-like commitment to a design-free worldview. Your entire purpose here is to concoct as many excuses as possible to justify this rejection, without admitting your true motivations: It dumps all over your preferred worldview. What you want us to believe: "I reject I.D. because it's not scientific! There's no evidence for it! It's unfalsifiable!" What we actually know: "I reject I.D. because I absolutely hate the implications of life being designed!" I assure you, no one's being fooled.Jammer
January 18, 2012
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Joe, So what is the most parsimonious explanation then? Given that you already said you actually believe the designer is in fact an alien race that colonized earth and that we in fact are those aliens I have to wonder if the tent can survive getting any bigger? In fact, I think I see it blowing away! So, Joe, if the designer is aliens where did they come from? They evolved did they? Or what? ROFL.Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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Really? So, how come Shubin knew exactly where to dig to find Tiktaalik? Just a guess was it? I'd suspect the probably of that being a guess would be over the UPB and therefore it must be design! I've got no way of substantiating that, it's just a "feeling". Nonetheless it's true! I just know it.Peter Griffin
January 18, 2012
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champignon- ARTIFICIAL not supernatural-> natural is being contrasted with artificial.Joe
January 18, 2012
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Darwinism isn't a scientific theory based on any definition of science nor theory that I know of.Joe
January 18, 2012
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"Darwinism" isn't a religion, on any definition of religion that I know of. It's a scientific theory.Elizabeth Liddle
January 18, 2012
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Supernatural does not necessarily = religious. A religious interpretation is one of many possible interpretations of an assumed supernatural event. As in the religious interpretations of t=0. Arguing that a specific creator triggered the big bang is religious. However, recognizing t=0 as outside the laws of nature, i.e. supernatural by definition, is within the scientific framework.junkdnaforlife
January 18, 2012
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