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Endogenous Retroviruses in the Case for Common Ancestry

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We often hear the argument that evidence for common ancestry can also be interpreted as evidence of common design. Some years ago I made the argument that there was no way to discriminate between the two. The argument was countered (successfully IMO) by endogenous retroviruses (ERVs).

A bit of background about ERVs. Retroviruses replicate themselves by invading a host cell and inserting a package of viral genes into the host DNA along with promoters that cause the cell to express (translate and manufacture into proteins) those genes. The expression of those genes makes new virus particles and can compromise or kill the host cell in the process. The active viral gene package, after insertion, is called a provirus. Proviruses can be deactivated by a number of means becoming inert and leaving just the mostly intact but non-functional genes still in the host cell genome. Occasionally a germ cell can become infected and if it survives to become a new organism the deactivated provirus becomes what’s called an endogenous retrovirus (ERV for short) and gets passed along from parent to offspring down the lineage. Because the ERV serves no function it is not conserved by natural selection and is slowly mutilated by random mutations over millions of years until it is no longer recognizable as the strain of provirus it once was. There may be preferred insertion points in the genome for the RV genes but if there are there are a great many potential insertion points.

The case for common ancestry is made by finding the same strain of ERV inserted at the same place (loci) in the genomes of closely related species such as different primate species. The argument is that the RV infected a germ cell in a common ancestor and the ERV was then inherited by all the descendents. When the species splits or spawns a new species that is reproductively isolated each species has the ERV but, and here’s the key, random mutation changes each ERV differently. By comparing the differences in ERV sequences at the same loci in different species one can establish a rough date for the original infection in a common ancestor given a more or less average background rate of random mutation.

ERVs in various levels of decomposition make up some 8% of the human genome. Occasionally however an ERV is conscripted for some useful purpose and is conserved. It should be noted that human designers use domesticated RVs as delivery vehicles to insert foreign genes into genomes to create so-called GM (genetically modified) organisms like tomatoes with longer shelf lives and whatnot. Theoretically this can be used to distribute vaccines for various diseases. A GM banana for instance could carry genes that cause it to manufacture a vaccine for malaria. Eat a GM banana and you’re immunized against malaria. More significant to the case for intelligent design is that this is a mechanism a designer could use to modify genomes – introduce a virus into the population which inserts genes that cause the spawning of a new species. So if anyone asks about possible mechanisms a hypothetical designer could use to intervene and direct evolution that’s a good answer. Human designers are already doing it so it’s a proven mechanism. Morever a highly infectious retrovirus inserting genes that cause modification and speciation could convert entire populations into a new species in just one or several generations and at the same time cause the original species to become extinct virtually overnight. That fits wonderfully with the indisputable testimony of the fossil record which paints a picture of abrupt speciation, millions of years of little if any change in the new species, followed by an abrupt extinction. A mechanism for causing saltation of new species is thus shown.

Anyhow, back to the case for common ancestry. Recently in a private forum where others are concerned with intelligent design I brought up the case of ERVs as evidence supporting common ancestry vs. common design. If common design instead of common ancestry the designer is evidently using existing species in situ as the template for new species. If that’s the case there’s effectively no difference whatsoever between common design and common ancestry.

An objection was raised about how it was possible for a germ cell to become infected by an RV in the first place and secondly how could it survive the infection and go on to grow into a reproducing adult. As it turns out it probably isn’t very likely at all for sperm cells to be either infected with a provirus or survive the infection. Sperm are created and grow quickly into mature cells with a lifetime measured in days. Once mature they are stored behind a blood barrier which inhibits viral infection. They are also very active cells and even if infected would likely be hobbled enough to not be successful at fertilizing an egg. Egg cells however are a whole different story. In mammals a female is born with a lifetime supply of primary oocytes (immature egg cells) already created. There is also no blood barrier where they are stored in ovarian follicles. They are stored in a state of suspended animation or dormancy. Upon their creation in the developing embryo meiosis is halted in the first of two meiotic divisions at anaphase (IIRC) while still diploid (full compliment of 46 chromosomes). DNA replication and segregation into haploid germ cells is not completed until, beginning with puberty, one or a few resume meiosis and become mature egg cells ready to be fertilized. Thus a primary oocyte can hang around in a dormant state for 50 or more years and ostensibly be infected by an RV at any time. Because they are dormant gene expression is suppressed and even after a provirus is inserted into their DNA it isn’t likely to be expressed. The provirus remains dormant as well in other words. Because meoisis hasn’t progressed very far there is still a lot of DNA replication and shuffling (segregation and crossover) that goes on before the egg is mature. My conjecture is that the provirus is deactivated or very likely to be deactivated during the completion of meiosis (possibly from either segregation or crossover) so it is converted at once from provirus to endogenous retrovirus without ever having an opportunity to be expressed into new virus particles. This would handily explain how so many ERVs have found their way into primate genomes.

Comments
great_ape, thank you for youe clarifications, as usual very precise and useful. I am very interested to this subject, and I will try to improve my knowledge about it as soon as possible. I am extremely interested in everything about non-coding DNA, including retrotransposons, SINEs, pseudogenes, introns and so on. I am sure there are still many things to understand about that. For the moment, I am grateful of your input. I really can agree that much of the evidence you refer to is a very good indicator of common descent. I maintain, anyway, my opinion that the current criteria for function in non coding DNA are not appropriate, because I am convinced, although I cannot substantiate it at present, that the regulatory role of non coding DNA will be understood only in the light of completely new aproaches.gpuccio
May 12, 2007
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Great Ape, DaveScot -- good interchange. Great Ape, I totally agree with you that the evidence for ERVs provides a strong logical support for a common ancestry model. An inability to recognize that demonstrates an inability to understand the basics of logic. However, DaveScot presents every bit as valid of a point. Science's determination to blindly reject the possibility that it can detect intelligent causation, and science's determination to blindly declare, "we cannot detect intelligent causation without knowing the causal agent, therefore intelligent causation didn't happen" is every bit as illogical as the issue you present. Let science rule out intelligent causation, and until science has ruled it out, let science openly acknowledge intelligent causation as a valid explanation. The best explanation we have for the big bang, by far, is intelligent causation. The best explanation we have for OOL, by far, is intelligent causation. There are numerous other evidenciary challenges that are most easily explained by intelligent causation -- Haldane's dilemma comes to mind. Great Ape, please use as high of standard when judging your own illogic that you use when judging others.bFast
May 12, 2007
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great_ape, All the data serves to support common descent. With my consideraly more limited knowlede, I agree. However, none of it supports any mechanism for speciation. Would that be a proper non inference? Hence Jaki's comment that Darwin's ideas unify biology but there is zero empirical evidence for speciation by gradualism and in science normally zero empirical evidence is usually a killer.jerry
May 12, 2007
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scordova
I think the arguments against it are equally formidable. I see something of a stalemate.
And what may those arguments be? If you're busy links are fine.Patrick
May 12, 2007
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great_ape It serves as my litmus test for who can and can not understand scientific evidence in this debate and/or can not evaluate it objectively. Outright denial of common descent once shown these data is tantamount to thumbing one’s nose to science as an approach to understanding nature. Good test. I have a litmus test to determine scientific objectivity as well. The test is whether one first acknowledges that intelligent agency capable of manipulating genomic content for an express purpose is extant in the universe and second whether the Copernican Principle is applied to such intelligent agency to presume that such agency is not unique. Acknowledging the former but not the latter speaks to an unscientific agenda that is more religious in nature than scientific. The Copernican Principle is the central dogma behind The Enlightenment. Denying it in the case of intelligent agency but not elsewhere is ideological bias and one can't reason with ideological bias. If these two items are acknowledged then at least the evidence can be objectively examined and reasonable inferences drawn from it. I consider myself a hardcore materialist. The only difference between me and design deniers is that I consider intelligent agency to be material in origin and thus something that must be considered as a possible explanation of phenomena in the material world.DaveScot
May 12, 2007
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Micheals7 Unrecognizability occurs gradually. Like randomly replacing letters in a paragraph. You can still recognize it as the same paragraph by a statistically unlikely set of matching letters. Eventually it becomes statistically unrecognizable. The degradation process takes place over millions of years such that you won't find this except between species that have a common ancestor in the more recent past. It doesn't provide any evidence of common ancestry between birds and mammals as that (supposed) split from a common reptilian ancestor was too long ago, but it should up between disparate species of birds and between disparate species of mammals. The more recent the reproductive split the better the match between the provirus remnants. Many other genetic elements follow this same course of increasing mismatches over time as do whole genomes but those don't tend to rule out common design as their basis. ERVs do because they are external in origin - unique new genes that show up whole, functional, commonly, frequently, and without predecessors.DaveScot
May 12, 2007
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Michaels7:
Here is the conundrum mentioned earlier. If the provirus is “no longer recognizble” then how can they find the “same strain” across millions of years? This is conflicting observations of data.
It is my understanding that it takes about 100 million years for unimplemented DNA to become total mush. As the common ancestor between the chimp and human is presumed to be about 3-4 million years ago, an ERV marker that existed at the time of the split would be reasonably and detectably preserved over that period of time. BTW, we can ignore degradation in the marker prior to the split.bFast
May 12, 2007
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"I haven’t been able to find much on SINE’s but maybe someone else here may have some insight to the importance of these DNA sequences and whether they are functional or not." --Jerry The verdict is still out on SINE function, IMO, even for the hard-core evolutionist. I sit the fence on this one and await further evidence. Others lean more one way or the other. It is clear that SINEs have, on occassion, been adopted for organismal functions. That is, particular SINE *instances* have been adopted for organismal function. That does not necessarily imply function to them in general, as a group. David Haussler's group has perhaps shown this sort of instance exaptation most dramaticaly with the Coelacanth SINEs and their human remnants. However, it is just as clear to me that not *all* SINE insertions have a function. New insertions are happening all the time (1 in 50-100 human births) and the vast majority of these are lost by drift and never reach fixation. We know this. Many of the copies that are fixed have severely and systematically atrophied thru mutation, some almost beyond recognition. This strongly indicates a lack of organismal function for these many many SINE instances. The same applies to ERV instances, pseudogene instances, etc. The beauty of using ERVs, SINEs, pseudogenes, etc, as beautiful and effectively irrefutable evidence of common descent, however, is that as long as the insertion process is effectively random--and this can be empirically evaluated for the SINE in question--the logic of demonstrating common ancestry is virtually undeniable. It serves as my litmus test for who can and can not understand scientific evidence in this debate and/or can not evaluate it objectively. Outright denial of common descent once shown these data is tantamount to thumbing one's nose to science as an approach to understanding nature. But in that case how can we explain the fixation of a single insertion, so much so as to be transmitted from the common ancestor to the descendants? --gpuccio gpuccio, the statistics roughly state that 1/2N such insertions (even if they are neutral), where N is the population size, will fix by chance alone. If a certain locus happens to receive an insertion, it has this small probability of fixation. With enough insertional hits, some insertions are bound to fix. Thus if species A is an ancestor to species B, B will share that same insertion at this locus. You raise a good question as to how a non-random insertion process might undermine the logic used above. It depends on in what respect it is non-random. There are many levels of this. Some retrotransposons, such as R2, home in on very specific sites in the genome that are limited in number. Thus they are very unreliable for phylogenetic purposes. Other ERVS/SINES/,etc, are nonrandom only in the sense that they prefer gene-rich regions or AT-rich regions, etc. In fact, the vast majority appear to be of this variety. This sort of non-randomness is very benign for the purpose of inferring common descent. So one must understand the properties of the SINE/ERV, etc, being used. Once done, however, I think that you will find that the reservations you have about using ERVs,etc as evidence for common ancestry hold no weight.great_ape
May 12, 2007
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Dave, Thanks for simplification. I have questions if anyone wants to chime in. "Because the ERV serves no function it is not conserved by natural selection and is slowly mutilated by random mutations over millions of years until it is no longer recognizable as the strain of provirus it once was." Is this not a conundrum later if "no longer recognizable." "There may be preferred insertion points in the genome for the RV genes but if there are there are a great many potential insertion points." This might be a passive defense? "The case for common ancestry is made by finding the same strain of ERV inserted at the same place (loci) in the genomes of closely related species such as different primate species." Here is the conundrum mentioned earlier. If the provirus is "no longer recognizble" then how can they find the "same strain" across millions of years? This is conflicting observations of data. "The argument is that the RV infected a germ cell in a common ancestor and the ERV was then inherited by all the descendents. When the species splits or spawns a new species that is reproductively isolated each species has the ERV but, and here’s the key, random mutation changes each ERV differently. By comparing the differences in ERV sequences at the same loci in different species one can establish a rough date for the original infection in a common ancestor given a more or less average background rate of random mutation." Again, how can they compare something that is supposed to be beyond recognition? I'm left thinking there are some broad assumptions being made again by the well utilized "time" component of Darwin.Michaels7
May 12, 2007
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If RV loci are "not random" could this be the result of passive defense mechanisms related to spatial sequencing of so-called "junkdna"? Decoy DNA?Michaels7
May 12, 2007
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Here is the comment I made last week about the possibilities of the origins of common descent. From the evidence I have seen it is fairly well established but we can disagree. I know of at least four categories of mechanisms for the cause of common descent and others may have additional thoughts. 1. front loaded evolutionary information put into one or more genomes at some deep distant time and over the course of time the information in these genomes were triggered and produced the various species. I am certainly not very knowledgeable on this so others may have better insight. 2. sudden large changes in the genome cause by natural means. In the last year there have been discussion about various authors who have pronounced neo-Darwinism dead and that changes happened this way. Some specific mechanisms for these sudden and rather large changes to the genome are proposed but essentially they are only hypothesized to exist. Others may have better insight on this. 3. gradual changes over time which is the standard fare taught in all the textbooks and universities as neo-Darwinism. However, there is almost no evidence at all for this position. Darwin proposed it and nearly everybody has followed his lead and accepted it but with little proof and lots of contradictory information. It is an amazing intellectual position for so many to defend without any backup. By the way I just read Stanley Jaki's pamphlet on Intelligent Design and Darwin and he makes the point of the lack of empirical evidence backing Darwin's ideas and that exactly "zero" species have been documented to occur by the Darwin's gradualistic approach. Jaki is very critical of ID but equally disparaging of Darwin. Though he says that Darwin's ideas unified Biology and explains everything except for the problem of no empirical data which is crucial for science. 4. agency interfered at various times to change the genome. This is again only inference from available information and the small probabilities of the changes that occurred could happen by natural means. The last is the ID position that this mechanism happened at least once in the past and probably more. This is anathema to science since it looks like the fairy god mother appearing every now and then to cause changes. Under each, common descent would be a reality but each provides very different implications and none has any empirical support. As I said there is no empirical evidence for any of them but in some instances, #4 looks very persuasive to myself. Just what these instances are, is open to debate but I will go with OOL as one definite one. But to biologists Darwin's ideas are equally persuasive because they unify everything. In other areas some naturalistic mechanism looks persuasive such as what best explains the geo disparity of life. These are just my observations on this topic and also sometimes I think we operate with less than a half deck of cards when discussing these things. There seems to be a lot of relevant information out there that we are unaware of.jerry
May 12, 2007
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You very correctly point to ERV as the best evidence for common descent. You misunderstood what I wrote. ERVs were just the final straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. What the Darwinian explanation can't accomodate is saltation beginning with the mysterious and sudden appearance of the first replicating cells very early in the earth's history and continuing all through the fossil record. It's simply inconceivable that any chance & necessity mechanism can bridge the stark discontinuities. The dogged refusal of the fossil record to show a continuum of small changes leading to novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans falsifies the chance & necessity hypothesis. Moreover the central dogma has completely crumbled at the microorganism level through the discovery of horizontal gene transfer, mobile elements, and epigenetics. All these mechanisms are now suspected of playing a role in the evolution of multicellular life as well. Some explanation other than chance & necessity is called for. C&N might account for more trivial adaptations that don't involve novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans. Either intelligent design (front loaded at the beginning or injected at intervals over the course of time) is one of those explanations and it appears to fit all the evidence very well. Process structuralism is another mechanism but it is lacking in support as it supposes that there are hidden laws of nature. Intelligent design doesn't presuppose anything that doesn't already exist - intelligent agency that can modify organisms at the genetic level is already proven to exist in the universe in one instance. That agency is us of course. To suppose there's just one of anything is in opposition to the Copernican Principle so in following that principle I must presuppose there are other intelligent agencies in the universe with the same or greater capabilities than our own. Nothing supernatural is required to explain a design scenario. No laws of physics need to be circumscribed or unknown laws postulated. Another intelligence with biochemistry expertise predating humanity in the sphere of the causally connected universe is all that's required. Of course it could be much more than that - the matter and energy we know about in the universe and can describe with our current understanding of physics appears to comprise only about 5% of what's actually there. 95% of the stuff that makes up the universe, known only by its gravitational interaction with normal matter, remains uncharacterized. Who knows what lurks there.DaveScot
May 12, 2007
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pk4_paul If this were the case one would not expect to see insertion points at identical locci if this were truly a random process. But I am aware that there is excellent evidence for preferential insertion points. The significance of this lies in the use of ERVs by Darwinists to argue for common descent. If insertion points occur at preferred locations and a retroviral outbreak occurs, one would expect to see the evidence for this not only in the same genomic locations within a species, but also perhaps for different species, as would be the case for primates who have very similar genomes. Identical preferred insertion points would explain the presence of ERVs at the same locations in two species having very similar genomes. This still would not explain why genomic junk would be preserved over geologic time periods and indicates a natural selection anomaly. Good points. RVs don't often cross the species barrier for both biological (incompatibility) and proximal (little direct contact to spread the infection) reasons. Not airtight of course but enough to cast doubt on same virus inserting at same preferred point in two different species. Granted the same insertion point in individuals of the same species should be unlikely (preferred insertion points aside) but I think that might be made up for by a great many individuals being infected. Also a new species that splits off is ostensisbly going to subtend from a small number of reproductively isolated individuals in the parent population. This is fascinating to contemplate. However retroviruses leave a genomic signature behind by which they are identifed. In addition for an ERV to become a functional part of a eukaryotic genome we would expect to find promotor regions, an initiation site and required transcription factors enabling gene expression. Of course. Proviruses do include promotor and initiation sites. They couldn't get the cell to express their genes otherwise. I’m not a believer in accidental causality and before one invokes selection to explain how an accident becomes deterministic I’d like a clearer indication that selection is not an ad hoc concept, that can explain both the retention of junk over geologic time, as well as slightly beneficial theoretical changes. Keep in mind this is just one bit of corroborating evidence. I mostly base a belief in common ancestry on a common genetic code, the law of biogenesis, and nested hierarchy. Another explanation for all these things is of course possible but anything I've seen appears contrived in order to accomodate young earth creation. A related interesting question lies in accounting for the origin of viruses themselves. From a Darwinian perspective they are problematic being host dependent. They seems to be a deep mechanistic relation between retroviruses and retrotransposons. The only thing substantially different is the former exits the cell to insert itself into other cells where the latter confines itself to a single cell.DaveScot
May 12, 2007
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Darrel Falk has a lengthy chapter in his book that discusses the evidence for common descent. Besides retro viruses, he discusses what are called pseudogenes and gives examples of deletion pseudogenes that are identical from species to species such as goats and cows and another deletion that exists in great apes but not in monkeys. Deletions are rare and a powerful evidence of common descent since identical deletions across species would indeed be a low probability event. Falk mentions what is called SINE's or simple interspersed nucleotide elements that are common between various animals and one links whales with the hippopotamus. Just google "sine evolution" and there is a long article about the evolution of whales based on this concept. I haven't been able to find much on SINE's but maybe someone else here may have some insight to the importance of these DNA sequences and whether they are functional or not. Falk seemed to think they are not functional and thus just mistakes passed along because they are stuck in the middle of introns.jerry
May 12, 2007
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Mung: "It implies no such thing. Why accept without criticism the premiss that the differences are to be found within DNA?" I can well agree with you that the differences are not necessarily only in the DNA. I am personally convinced that the most important differences are probably elsewhere, although at present it would be very difficult to concieve what this "elsewhere" may be. But stil, some differences are certainly in the DNA. And, of those differences, most are certainly in the non coding DNA. The importance of non coding DNA in the regulation of life processes cannot be overemphasized. Not only it is supported by a lot of evidence, at many levels, but it is really almost a logical necessity. How can anybody with a minimum os sense believe that human DNA is formed for only 1,5% by information bearing code, and for 98,5% by junk? Such an idea is simply ridiculous.gpuccio
May 12, 2007
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DaveScot: I have said many times that I have no problem with common descent, but still I keep an open mind about it, and I would like to really understand how much evidence really supports it. You very correctly point to ERV as the best evidence for common descent. I agree with you. But still, I would like to sum up some of the big problems which seem to arise when we consider ERVs as evidence of common descent. They have already been clearly elucidated in the previous posts of this thread, so I am only trying to gather them, and I would really be interested to know your opinion: 1) How can we explain the fixation of a specific RV insertion in the genome? Atom has very well raised this problem. You answered that RVs, differently from genes, can invade genomes horizontally. That's true, but others, like pk4_paul and idnet.com.au, have observed that, in that case, we would not observe the same insertions. It seems to me that any argument in favour of fixation is at the same time an argument against the value of RVs as evidence of common descent. In other words, we have one of two scenarios: a) RV insertions are truly random: then, if the RVs expand horizontally, they should be found at different loci in the same species, and obviously also in different species. But in that case how can we explain the fixation of a single insertion, so much so as to be transmitted from the common ancestor to the descendants? b) RV insertions are not random, and they happen at specific loci. So, the expansion in a species is horizontal, but it happens in the same locus. But in that case, the occurrence of the RV in different species at the same locus is no more valid evidence of common descent, because it could be explained, similarly, as an effect of non random insertion. So, I see a true difficulty here. 2) By the way, it seems that there are many evidences in the literature that RV insertions are not random. Is not this fact detrimental to considering them as evidence of common descent? 3) Moreover, if we admit that RVs, and also retrotransposons, could not be random parasytes, but rather instruments of DNA plasticity (there is some evidence of that too, in the literature), more or less utilized by intelligent information and/or intelligent designer(s), wouldn't that be another strong argument against their mechanical interpretation as passive "markers" of a random process of information alteration? That said, I am really interested in this discussion. I don't think that religious convictions should have any influence on our appraisal of the evidence. But we must never accept "easy" interpretations of the existing evidence, without considering the problems which may arise from them.gpuccio
May 12, 2007
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This implies that the difference between placentals and marsupials is in the junk, and that it is therefore not likely that junk really is junk.
It implies no such thing. Why accept without criticism the premiss that the differences are to be found within DNA?Mung
May 12, 2007
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Atom, [An unnamed individual] presented as a response to [an unidentified criticism] of a prior scenario, which I shall term scenario A, a new scenario, which I shall term scenario B. When presented with an objection to scenario B, [unnamed individual] presented as a counter-argument scenario A. Am I the only one who noticed?Mung
May 12, 2007
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Did Dave Scot propose that a population gets infected by a retrovirus all at a similar time and thus the benefit endowed by the virus spreads widely. If this is tha case, then we should see many different insertion points in members of the same species, and this would negate RVs present at the same locus being evidence of common descent. I personally favor common descent, but I wonder if RVs are really viruses that have infected organisms or whether they are mostly signal sequences. The non protein coding DNA of marsupials shows a 20% difference when compared to placentals (cf 1% for protein coding sequences). This implies that the difference between placentals and marsupials is in the junk, and that it is therefore not likely that junk really is junk.idnet.com.au
May 12, 2007
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bfast, Animals do not have morals, they have instincts.Jehu
May 11, 2007
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Jehu, I wholely agree with you and the majority of the scientific community that cosmology is a big bang event. Life seems to clearly be a big bang event. OOL is currently a very strong supporter of ID whether the OOL scientists acknowledge it or not. One can surely argue that multi-cellular life was a big bang event. However, I think that anthropocentrism is the cause of the belief that psychology and morality are big bang events. Animals unquestionably have psychology -- ask any dog trainer. Fish have much less of a psychology, but they still have a psychology -- ask any fly fisherman. Morality is a bit harder to discern, it is even harder to define, yet I bet I could make a good case that animals have a moral sense and moral code. The morality of animals is certainly limited compared to our own, yet it is exactly the fact that theirs is lesser that proves that morality is likely not a big bang event.bFast
May 11, 2007
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In contrast, this is not the case, for example, with OOL where the balance is pretty lopsided in favor of ID. There is no formidable argument for mindless OOL.
OOL is only one of the "four big bangs". 1’) the Cosmological (the universe “just popped” into existence out of nothingness). 2’) the Biological (life “just popped” into existence out of a dead thing). 3’) the Psychological (mind “just popped” into existence out of a brain). 4’) and the Moral (morality “just popped” into existence out of amorality). Each of these "big bangs" tells us there is a God. And so the proverbial divine foot is in the door. Once the divine door is open all the implications of divinty are on the table and theological considerations become rational. Considerations about the meaning of life and why we are here are just as important, if not more so, than speculations abourt ERV's.Jehu
May 11, 2007
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Mike 1962: Just curious, but why do you reject common ancestry if the arguments for it are formidable?
I think the arguments against it are equally formidable. I see something of a stalemate. In contrast, this is not the case, for example, with OOL where the balance is pretty lopsided in favor of ID. There is no formidable argument for mindless OOL. The ID/OOL debate is lopsided, but the common design vs. common descent is not lopsided. I think creationist Todd Wood gave the most balanced viewpoint. Furthermore, it would be appropriate for me to confess something of a personal religious bias. Over the years, as skeptical as I've been of a literal interpretation of the Genesis account, I'm thinking it has a better and better chance of being correct each day. Plus, I think in time we may have emprical data which will help us decide one way or another. Solexa technolgy may hold the key. I will keep hoping the facts will fall in favor of special creation. I am willing to change my mind, but I certainly have my personal hopes and biases.... Unlike some of my brethren, I would prefer to resolve the issue of common ancestry theoretically and empricially rather than theologically. So even if I have my religious beliefs today, one will hopefully never see me suggests my personal beliefs are equal to scientific arguments. As of today, I agree with creationist Todd Wood, in that from a scientic standpoint, the creationists certainly don't have a slam dunk case over their front-loaded-common-descent counterparts in ID's big tent. And personally, I'm at this time content to let us all be one big happy family under the big tent. Salvadorscordova
May 11, 2007
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I guess I should be more specific: Dave’s virus-hits-every-member-of-population scenario indeed removes the burden of a single new gene in one organism having to takeover the population by reproduction and selection (thus bypassing Haldane-ReMine limits and random effects)…
Thanks Atom. I guess I should be more specific too. DS bagan by talking apples. RV insertion in the oocyte:
An objection was raised about how it was possible for a germ cell to become infected by an RV in the first place and secondly how could it survive the infection and go on to grow into a reproducing adult. ... Egg cells however are a whole different story. In mammals a female is born with a lifetime supply of primary oocytes (immature egg cells) already created.
Then when you raiseed your objection, which is still vaild, the switch to talking about oranges took place:
... virus-hits-every-member-of-population scenario...
IOW, he just relied on the same scenario, used it to answer an objection to his "RV in the EGG," scnario, that his "RV in the EGG" scenario was supposed to resolve! Don't let him get away with it. You were on the right track.Mung
May 11, 2007
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bFast, "2b - God specially created humans to appear as if we have a common ancestor. Ie: he’s just foolin’ — lying." 2c: After the fall of man, God allowed Satan to mess with the creation and put all kinds of deceiving evidence in there. This idea is quite compatible with Christian theology. The New Testament speaks of "lying wonders" and a "great delusion" God allows Satan to pull off prior to the Second Advent, etc.mike1962
May 11, 2007
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bornagain77, Not sure what my question to Salvador has to do with your post to me. Common ancestry has no necessarily logical connection with random mutation providing new information. One can accept common ancestry and reject RM+NS as the engine of that ancestry.mike1962
May 11, 2007
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geoffrobinson #23, you provide an interesting post. This data would, in fact, support DaveScot's assertion that a designer may use ERVs as vehicles to inject functional DNA into organisms. (Believe me, just because I buy into common ancestry, that doesn't mean I reject agency.) However, as was pointed out, this is an example of a similar ERV in two separate lines, but at very different locations in the genome -- hardly a viable argument against the proof of common ancestry sited. (according to common ancestry theory, they do have a common ancestor, by the way, just not in the last 20m years when the ERV apparently was injected.)bFast
May 11, 2007
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[quote]Your scenario indeed removes the burden of a single new gene having to spread throughout the population…[/quote] An unnecessary concession. DS stated talking apples and oranges. Go back and examine the originally porposed scenario, and the problem persists.
I guess I should be more specific: Dave's virus-hits-every-member-of-population scenario indeed removes the burden of a single new gene in one organism having to takeover the population by reproduction and selection (thus bypassing Haldane-ReMine limits and random effects)... Atom PS Mung, BBCode doesn't work on these boards. Use <blockquote></blockquote> tags instead to offset quotes. ex <blockquote>Text to offset goes in here</blockquote>Atom
May 11, 2007
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Hey geoffrobinson, how's it going? So here's the thing with ERV's and how they are seen as evidence for common descent. They actually have to meet two criteria to be seen as evidence for common descent. 1. same location on DNA 2. sequence patterns have to be consistent. This is practically the same methods they use to determine paternity tests on humans. The study you linked to above was not discussing ERV's in this manner. For one, they weren't found in the same DNA locations between humans and mice and they didn't have the same sequence. They were only similar in function. I hope this helps. later man, and have a good weekend.Fross
May 11, 2007
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bFast: This is a nice hypothetical solution. It would seem to hold merit if there were some cause why the ERV was inserted at that particular location, and would hold merit if there were very few such events. However, not only do ERVs show this phenomenon, but as discussed on Brainstorms recently, there are also around a hundred defined disease producing point mutations that are common between the human and the chimp. The nice hypothetical solution has solid empirical support and there are also biochemically based explanations, related to mutations, that explain probability based on the nature of certain mutagens and how DNA repair mechanisms function. It is helpful to review the history of this issue because it illustrates which side is seeking the "nice solutions." When common descent arguments were advanced based on genomic evidence of viral insertions Darwinists made the unwarrented assumption that such insertions were random. The advantages to such a claim were obvious. They also bear a suspicious witness to an ideological bent. But what happens when subsequent studies reveal that insertion points are not random. In most scientific fields the reversal of a claim would cast suspicion on the theory it was used to support. But what do we have here. Is the notion of common descent compromised? By no means. An adjustment is made and it is now claimed that common descent accounts for the genomic features that determine preferred insertion points. Heads I win. Tails I win too. The evidence suggests that humans and chimps have a common ancestor. The best reason I can find to conclude that that is not so is a religious conviction. I, for one, do not want science bridled by religious conviction whether that be the conviction that some text is divine, or the conviction that there is no divine. Let the evidence speak for itself. I have a different perspective on this. It seems to me that science is better served when layers of causality are minimized. The relevant data explaining why a retrovirus would be inserted at such and such a location are connected to biochemical causes. When we find out the details we are able to explain problems. Common descent is not a helpful concept in solving these kinds of problems. This is a case study as to why this is so. Common ancestry is layered on to actual explanations and if there are two alternatives, x and y, both can be incorporated into a common ancestry paradigm by making the necessary adjustments. Common ancestry is never threatened. It is an endlessly flexible doctrine. Ironically those with religious views are frequently accused of blind adherence to dogma by those hostile to religion. Yet can any theory linked to science be any more dogmatic than common descent? Believe that which you will. If common descent explains everything then its real utility is virtually nil.pk4_paul
May 11, 2007
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