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Gambler’s ruin is Darwin’s ruin

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The same day I first watched “Expelled” in theaters, I also watched the movie “21”. The movie “21” is based on the true story of MIT students who made a fortune in Las Vegas casinos through the use of mathematics.

The real story behind the movie began with an associate of Claude Shannon by the name of Dr. Edward O. Thorp of MIT. In the Early 60’s, Thorp published a landmark mathematical treatise on how to beat casinos. His research was so successful that Las Vegas casinos shut down many of their card tables for an entire year until they could devise counter measures to impede Thorp’s mathematics.

Thorp is arguably the greatest gambler of all time. He extended his gambling science to the stock market and made a fortune. His net worth is in the fractional to low billions. He is credited with some independent discoveries which were the foundation to the Black-Scholes-Merton equation relating heat transfer thermodynamics to stock option pricing. The equation won the Nobel prize and was the subject of the documentary: The Trillion Dollar Bet.

Thorp would probably be even richer today if Rudy Gulliani had not falsely implicated him in the racketeering scandal involving Michael Milken. Thorp, by the way, keeps a dartboard with Gulliani’s picture on it… 🙂

The relevance of Thorp’s math to Darwinism is that Thorp was a pioneer of risk management (which he used to create the world’s first hedge fund). In managing a hedge fund or managing the wagers in casinos, one is confronted with the mathematically defined problem of Gambler’s Ruin. The science of risk management allows a risk manager or a skilled gambler to defend against the perils gamblers ruin. Unfortunately for Darwinism, natural selection has little defense against the perils of gambler’s ruin.

Even if an individual has a statistical advantage over a casino game, it is possible the individual can lose. Let’s say a skilled player has a 1% advantage on average over the casino. He wanders into the casino, looks for a favorable opportunity and wagers $500,000.00.

If he has a 1% statistical advantage, that means he has a 50.5% chance of winning and a 49.5% chance of losing. Even though he has a slight edge, he still has a very substantial chance of losing. It would be unwise to bet $500,000.00 if that is his life savings!

The movie “21” romanticized the advantage skilled players have. The movie “21” portrayed the MIT students as people who could sit at card tables and bilk casinos like ATM machines. That’s not how it works as testified by one of the more noteworthy members of the real MIT team by the name of Andy Bloch. Bloch reported that during his tenure as manager of the MIT team, the team was once in the red for 9 months before recovering. Skilled players lose big bets not quite 50% of the time. It is not unusual, on average, to have a losing streak of 8 hands in a row every 256 rounds. Ben Mezrich reported in his book, Bringing Down the House, an incident where the Big Player of the MIT team lost 3 hands in a row in 45 seconds of play for a sum total of $120,000.00! It happens…

A skilled player with a 1% advantage might expect to play 50,000 hands before his expected value exceeds the effect of one standard deviation of bad luck. That means he might have to play a looooong time before he realizes a profit….

What does this have to do with Darwinism? Darwin argued that

Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps.”

But that is complete nonsense mathematically speaking because of the problem of gambler’s ruin. It is not surprising that Darwin could not see the flaw in his argument because he could not even do high school algebra even after substantial effort. The lack of basic math and logic pervades his flawed theory.

The problem is that a selectively-advantaged traits are still subject to random events. The most basic random event is with whether a parent will even pass down a gene to a child in the first place! Added to that problem is the nature of random events in general. A genetically advantaged individual may die by accident, get consumed by a predator, etc.

And the problem gets worse. Even if selectively advantage traits get spread to a small percentage of the population, it still has a strong chance of being wiped out by the sum total of random events. The mathematics of gambler’s ruin helped clarify the effect of random “selection” on natural selection.

Without going into details, I’ll quote the experts who investigated the issues. Consider the probability a selectively advantaged trait will survive in a population a mere 7 generations after it emerges:

if a mutant gene is selectively neutral the probability is 0.79 that it will be lost from the population
….
if the mutant gene has a selective advantage of 1%, the probability of loss during the fist seven generations is 0.78. As compared with the neutral mutant, this probability of extinction [with natural selection] is less by only .01 [compared to extinction by purely random events].
….

Theoretical Aspects of Population Genetics
Motoo Kimura and Tomoko Ohta

This means is that natural selection is only slightly better than random chance. Darwin was absolutely wrong to suggest that the emergence of a novel trait will be preserved in most cases. It will not! Except for extreme selection pressures (like antibiotic resistance, pesticide resistance, anti-malaria drug resistance), selection fails to make much of an impact.

The contrast between a skilled gambler and natural selection is that a skilled player can wager small fractions of the money he sets aside for his trade. If a skilled gambler has $50,000, he might wager $100 at a time until the law of large numbers causes his statistical advantage to be asserted. He can attempt many many trials until his advantage eventually prevails. In this manner a skilled gambler can protect himself against the mathematics of gamblers ruin.

But natural selection is a blind watchmaker. It does not know how to perform risk management like a skilled player or the great math wizard, Edward Thorp. For natural selection to succeed in the way Thorp succeeded in the great casinos of Nevada and Wall Street, it has to hope the same mutant appears spontaneously many many times in many individuals. But for complex genes, this doesn’t happen. Truly novel and beneficial mutations are rare. They don’t repeat themselves very often, and when they arise, they will likely be wiped out unless there is fairly intense selection pressure (like we see in pesticide resistance or anti-biotic resistance or anti-malaria drug resistance, or malaria resistance associated with sickle cell anemia).

A further constraint on selective advantage of a given trait is the problem of selection interference and dilution of selective advantage if numerous traits are involved. If one has a population of 1000 individuals and each has a unique, novel, selectively-advantaged trait that emerged via mutation, one can see this leads to an impasse –selection can’t possibly work in such a situation since all the individuals effectively cancel out each other’s selective advantage.

This illustrates that there has to be a limit to the number of innovations appearing in a population simultaneously for selection to work. The emergence of advantageous mutations in a population has the net effect of diluting the selective advantage of all the traits.

If trait A has a large selective advantage in relation to trait B, trait A dilutes the selective advantage of trait B. Thus trait B is exposed more and more to gambler’s ruin because of the existence of trait A. For example an individual with better eyesight (trait A) might prevail over an individual with higher intelligence (trait B). An otherwise good trait (intelligence) is lost because another trait (good eyesight) interferes with the ability of that trait (intelligence) to be maintained…

Thus one can see the problem of many “slight advantageous traits” being necessarily “slight” because of the problem of interference. But “slight” implies they are subject to gambler’s ruin, and thus unlikely to be preserved as Darwin asserted. Thus Darwin was dead wrong….

John Sanford gives a more rigorous treatment in his book Genetic Entropy where he gives more exact numbers on the limits of selective advantage based on problems such as interference. Sanford shows that a 1% selective advantage is fairly generous, and is usually less than 1%. [I emphasize the word “usually”].

Most ironic is that Fisher’s analysis of the effect of gambler’s ruin essentially trashes his own theorem, Fisher’s Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection. Fisher’s Malthusian notions of “fitness” in his fundamental theorem do not account for the effect of random events taking out selectively advantaged traits. The fundamental theorem assumes evolution is noise free with respect to fitness, that advantageous traits always result in more offspring. We know empirically and theoretically this cannot possibly be true even on the approximate model of Mendelian inheritance.

For reasons such as those I laid out, many believe molecular evolution had to be mostly invisible to selection. Attributing even 5% of molecular evolution to Darwinism would be extremely generous. See: Kimura’s Neutral Theory.

Kimura gave an obligatory salute to Darwin by claiming adaptational features (like morphology) are exempt from his math. I’ve seen nothing supporting Kimura’s obligatory salute to Darwin. It seems his neutralist ideas apply quite well to realms beyond the molecular. NAS member Masotoshi Nei has finally been bold enough to assert most everything else about evolution, not just molecular evolution, is under much less selection pressure than previously assumed. I think Nei is right.

Yesterday afternoon I showed Kimura’s books to an ID-friendly senior in biology. His jaw dropped. He had studied molecular genetics, but our conversation yesterday helped him make the connections he had not made before. The math clearly indicates Darwin couldn’t possibly be right, and by way of extension, neither can Richard Dawkins.

These fairly obvious considerations were not lost upon Michael Lynch:

the uncritical acceptance of natural selection as an explanatory force for all aspects of biodiversity (without any direct evidence) is not much different than invoking an intelligent designer

Michael Lynch
The Origins of Genome Architecture, p 368

Notes:

1. I created a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet is provided for illustration of these concepts. I used a random number generator to simulate the progress of 10 equally skilled gamblers in a casino. Press the “F9” to redraw the graph. One can see that even “selectively” advantaged individuals can lose. The important thing to grasp is that “slight selective” advantages do not look very different from random walks except in the long run. The problem for natural selection in the wild is that there usually is no “long run” for a newly emerged trait if it suffers from gamblers ruin. The “long run” exists for skilled and intelligent risk managers like Edward Thorp, it does not exist, statistically speaking, for most selectively advantageous traits.

A copy of my spreadsheet can be accessed here.

Sometimes pressing “F9” will cause most of the gamblers to win, and other time it will cause most of them to lose. This underscores the strong effect of random events even when one possess an inherent statistical advantage such as a gambling skill or a selectively advantaged trait.

2. Here is a nice pic of Bill with a standard casino die.

In the 1970’s, casinos had to redesign their craps tables in order to foil skilled dice throwers who exploited slightly non-random behaviors of dice. Las Vegas laws were passed that prevented skilled players from using there specially designed tosses which would exhibit non-random, statistically advantageous behavior.

Some people still claim to be able to influence dice so as to create non-random outcomes in a legal way. However, even skilled crap shooters need principles of risk management and precautions against gambler’s ruin to succeed.

[UPDATE:

1. 5/5/08 World Renowned Geneticist Joe Felsenstein responds to my essay here: Gambler’s Ruin is Darwin’s Gain.

2. 5/5/08 HT: ICON-RIDS:

Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good.

C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species — Ch#4 Natural Selection

This is an even better quote showing how wrong Darwin was in light of these discussions.

See: this comment

3. Thanks to pantrog of PT for his editorial correction about sickle cell anemia. That was my editorial mistake not seeing it in the first place. My error was pointed out here here.

4. 5/8/08 One could easily modify the spreadsheet to stop progress when zero is hit, except if I did this, one would not easily see all the lines since most of them abort early thus giving a misleading impression of large scale progress. See this comment:
Comment about Spreadsheet

5. I wrote: If he has a 1% statistical advantage, that means he has a 50.5% chance of winning and a 49.5% chance of losing. To clarify, the outcomes are complicated by double-downs, splits, and blackjacks, etc. so the notion of “win” in this thread is effective average win over time per round….I didn’t want to get into these deep specifics earlier as it was peripheral to the thread…

6. 5/31/08 In response to various comments by those at UD and PandasThumb, I created another spreadsheet with some improvements. See the improvements at: ruin_olegt_mod1.xls. The princple changes were in response to suggestions by a very fine physicist by the name of Olegt who sometimes posts at TelicThoughts and PT. The new simulation has more rounds and actually prevents a player from playing once he is ruined.

]

Comments
So, Sal, are you then saying that the incidence of mutations on a population is non-random, but shows some bias in favor of beneficial mutations which furthers the (intelligently designed) development of the species? And that also the survival of individuals with beneficial mutations is also not due to natural selection , or random selection, but that it shows a bias in favor of those individuals which further the intelligent design of the species?DavidS
May 5, 2008
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ungtss: "Sexual reproduction increases recombination, but substantially decreases the odds that mutations will be passed on …" I agree with you. Sexual reproduction, and the shuffling of alleles in it, are usually overemphasized as a means of new information generation. As far as we know, the shuffling of existing alleles only allows a single species to express various polymorphisms which already are in the genetic pool of the species itself, and is the basis for the expression of variety among individuals and, probably, of the minimal systematic variation between races in a single species. We really don't know how the different polymorphisms arise, for instance what is the origin of the different blood groups, or HLA groups, or colours of the eyes and of the hair. That could be a product of random variation (not necessarily of selection), but I don't think we really know. But there is no evidence that allele shuffling through sexual reproduction and chromosome crossig over may be in any way an explanation for the appearance of really new functions, least of all for speciation, at any level (fron phylum to simple species). Each new species, or more dramatically family, class or phylum, is really a new project, which requires new information, a lot of it, new genes, new coordination of genes, new functions, new meta-functions, and so on. In a sense, the general barrier to procreation between different species (even with its exceptions) could be considered a natural prevention of the dangerous shuffling of genes between different projects, and a way to preserve more easily the identity and stability of each design. The "explanations" of the official theory are completely flawed. Natural selection is a ghost, derived from a few extreme examples of selection of "lucky and probable errors" under heavy and unnatural pressure (like in antibiotic therapy). Those few and non typical examples have been abnormally extended to generate a theory without evidence, a dogma without reason. It is rather obvious that most mutations or variations are negative or neutral. Probably almost all of them. That's why intelligent systems of defense against variation have been incorporated in the design of living beings. I don't know how much neutral mutations can be fixed by genetic drift, and I don't care. Anyway, genetic drift is another kind of random variable, and cannot add anything to the scenario. I have never understood the enthousiasm of some darwinists for that concept, as though it could be an answer to anything. Probably, the only natural role of natural selection is to eliminate the most extreme negative mutations. Even in that sense, it is not a very efficient principle, otherwise we would not have so many genetic diseases in our populations, most of which are certainly not "selected" for any subsidiary advantage (S hemoglobin being the exception, rather than the rule). In that sense, NS is really a tautology: those organisms which are too genetically damaged to survive, do not survive. It's as simple as that. To assume that such a mechanism is the real "author" of biological information is pure folly. At the cell level, the problem is solved with even more elegance: the cell whose genome has been damaged is "quarantined", and repair is attempted, while reproduction is suspended. If repair does not succeed, the cell spontaneously enters a very complex pathway which leads to a series of coordinated events leading to a controlled death (apoptosis), in such a way that the death of the damaged cell be not a danger for the other cells in the organism. Does that sound like design?gpuccio
May 5, 2008
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Joe Felsenstein writes: This would be a shocking disproof of decades of work in population genetics—if it accurately reflected the ultimate fate of those mutants. Fortunately, we can turn to an equation seven pages later in Kimura and Ohta’s book, equation (10), which is Kimura’s famous 1962 formula for fixation probabilities.
I happen to have Kimura's book in hand. Let us see what Kimura and Ohta have to say after they state equation 10,11,12:
Formula (12) shows that for slightly advantageous new mutants only a tiny minority are lucky to spread into the entire species, while the remaining majority are lost by chance even if they have a definite selective advantage...for every mutant gene having selective advantage of 0.5% that becomes fixed in the population, 99 equally advantageous mutants have been lost, without ever being used in evolution
This flies in the face of Darwin's claim:
Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good. C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species — Ch#4 Natural Selection
Darwin uses the word "all" not "some". The reality is that it is not even "most", much less "all". I have refuted Darwin's claim, as stated in Origin's, decisively. Kimura and Ohta point out:
The fact that the majority of mutations, including those having a slight advantage, are lost by chance is important in considering the problems of evolution by mutation, since the overwhelming majority of advantageous mutations are likely to have only a slightly advantageous effect. Note that a majority of mutations with large effect are likely to be deleterious. Fisher (1930b) emphasized that the larger the effect of the mutant, the less it its chance of being beneficial. In our opinion, this fact has not fully been acknowledged in many discussion of evolution. It is often tacitly assumed that every advantageous mutation that appears in the population is inevitably incorporated. page 11
Darwin was responsible in large part for the false assumption that "every advantageous mutation that appears in the population is inevitably incorporated". But Kimura and Ohta demonstrate this claim is false by several orders.scordova
May 5, 2008
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The problem becomes even more severe in smaller populations. He assumes a population of 1M. What of smaller populations? And what of the problem of sexual reproduction? In sexual reproduction, only 1/2 of the parental genetic variation is passed on to each offspring. That's a 50% loss in the case of an only child. The problem is mitigated with more children, but not solved. Sexual reproduction increases recombination, but substantially decreases the odds that mutations will be passed on ...ungtss
May 5, 2008
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Oh my goodness. Apparently I caused a major stink. One of the world’s most renowned Geneticists took time to offer his critique: His critique is nonsense. He compares the 2% chance of fixation of an s=.01 trait to the .00005% chance for a neutral trait, and screams "See! Natural selection works! It's much higher than the neutral trait!" But the elephant in the room is that there's only a 2% chance of fixation, and a 98% chance of elimination. Genetic drift is in fact the enemy of new mutations, even if advantageous, and it kills them off 98% of the time. And we're supposed to be impressed by the "power of natural selection."ungtss
May 5, 2008
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Oh my goodness. Apparently I caused a major stink. One of the world's most renowned Geneticists took time to offer his critique: Joe Felsenstein at PT.scordova
May 5, 2008
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That was certainly true of Jablonka and Lamb who must mention it 500 times in their book and they are some who are pushing for a new synthesis.
I appreciate your mention of Jablonka and Lamb as they are correct the gene-centric view of evolution is slowly declinging.... But let us suppose they are right, that evolution must take care of information outside of genes, but epigenetic, plus two more dimensions. Let us even suppose that in addition to evolution of genetic regions we have evolution of regulatory regions, that most "junk DNA" is functional. We must also consider the evolution of proteomes, not just genomes. This means that my illustration of 4,000,000,000 nucleotides might understate the staggaring amount of information which natural selection must actually manage. This makes problem of "Random Selection" far worse than we might have supposed... If I had to pick a "naturalistic theory" that really captures the imagination, it would have to be Koonin's Many World's. It solves the problems of OOL and the modern synthesis in one felt swoop....scordova
May 5, 2008
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Salvador, "I believe the Altenberg 16 are meeting this summer because modern synthesis needs to be trashed." I believe if you scratch each one of the attendees at Altenberg, you will find underneath someone who believes in selection. That was certainly true of Jablonka and Lamb who must mention it 500 times in their book and they are some who are pushing for a new synthesis. I sincerely doubt that any revision of the synthesis will trash selection. It is only looking at other naturalistic ways by which changes occur to a population over time that supplement and explain selection. Jablonka and Lamb's book covers a lot of them and none are a threat to ID. If someone completely rejects selection, then they better have something unusual up their sleeve because there is nothing out there at the moment that makes sense especially self organization. Do you really believe that self organization has anything to do with species origin? Remember the modern synthesis is not interested in OOL.jerry
May 5, 2008
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A perfectly accepted theory is available to explain how nearly all these species came about and it is called the modern evolutionary synthesis.
I beleive Kimura's math shatters modern synthesis. Kimura's PhD advisor was Sewell Wright, one of the architects of Neo-Darwinism. For that matter, Haldane and Fisher, also architects of Neo-Darwinsm provided the math to shatter modern synthesis. How can they be excused for putting forward a theory which their own math cast doubt on? I speculate that the principle reason are: 1. They did not understand the mechanisms of heredity in detail. Their principle work was developed even before the genetic code was elucidated. Watson-Crick's discoveries happened around the time of the origination of the Modern Synthesis, and it was years before molecular evolution would become a serious area of research. Ernts Mayr lamented the advance of the molecular evolutionist versus the organismal evolutionists.... 2. They did not appreciate the complexity of biology that we see today. 3. They did not fully appreciate the contradictions at the time. Mutation in the absence of selection seems to be a far more accurate model than modern synthesis. And as Dawkins observed, mutation was not part of Darwin's original theory. Mutationism was actually seen as a competitor to Darwinism... Neo-Darwinism tries to recruit mutation as a source of variation for natural selection. Let us grant mutations happen, but I still don't think selection can play a majority role. I have highlighted the work of Fisher (a neo-Darwinist) which strongly casts doubt on the role of selection on organisms. I don't think modern synethesis can possibly be correct on the grounds of population genetics alone. I believe the Altenberg 16 are meeting this summer because modern synthesis needs to be trashed. There will be advocates of self-organization at that meeting. I predict that might be the "new" modern synthesis.scordova
May 5, 2008
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Jerry, I borrowed the phrase Random Selection from Sal's comment #25 above:
What Kimura and others demonstrated is that even granting that natural selection works on occasion, the problem of “random selection” is quantifiably large enough to render “natural selection” almost irrelevant. Darwin said the majority mechanism is natural selection, but Darwin was wrong. Natural selection is not even the majority mechanism, it is not even 5%, it may not even be 1%. “Random selection” overpowers “natural selection”.
Some examples would be the effects of predatory behaviors, disease, or other environmental factors such as extreme weather conditions. Any individual manifesting a minor selective advantage would be subject to natural forces of greater effect, such as being eaten by a predator. Random Selection helps to make achieving fixity of a minor selective advantage very difficult, as I'm understanding the argument. Both RS and NS can only reduce diversity, but they each have different modus operandi. Where NS would tend to reduce a diverse population to one much more limited -- such as in the case of antibiotic resistance, RS would tend to stamp out novel emergences indiscriminately, except in more extreme environmental conditions. The resistant novelties in a population of bacteria for instance, would only manifest significantly in the presence of a specific antibiotic. They otherwise are invisible to NS and more subject to the same random factors as their coevals. Neither RS nor NS can be credited with creating diversity, only reducing it. Natural Selection can, however, quite probably be credited as the reason we see concentrations of reduced diversity in certain geographical locations, for instance. The net effect is still reduction. The variation mechanism needs to come from somewhere else, or perhaps the genetic information for the expression of extreme diversities was already present in the genome.Apollos
May 5, 2008
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Jerry: "A perfectly accepted theory is available to explain how nearly all these species came about and it is called the modern evolutionary synthesis" Well, I understand you just have faith in the commonly accepted theory, but only partially. Just wanted to understand.gpuccio
May 5, 2008
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Pardon for my potential ignorance, but for JT's question / argument to have any traction, in order for natural mutations to be analogous to the MIT gambling, wouldn't the beneficial mutation have to continually recure? That is, the gamblers can continually make the same bet over and over again til they succeed. In nature, this would be analogous to the same beneficial mutation occurring again and again and again until it finally succeeds. But of course this doesn't happen (except for trivial cases like malaria and quinine)--mutations are rare, beneficial mutations are rarer, and repeated identical beneficial mutations are extremely rare. Second, nature never produces gross beneficial traits such as "walrus moves better on land", especially in more complex animals. Most mutations have an effect that is very small (unless it is lethal), and also because an effect like increased land based mobility requires a number of coordinated beneficial mutations (especially in more complex animals). If I get this correctly (I would like to explain this to someone), one of the points of Scordova et al. is that mutation generation and selection is NOT like repeated card playing, and that even with repeated card playing the slight favourable probability only occurs because of (1) playing games with conditional probility (which natural mutation generation and selection is not), and (2) risk management in doling out one's mutations (controlling the starting fund and the subsequent money bet on each card play, and controlling when big bets are made) -- which is also unlike nature in which each mutation is all or nothing and it is unlikely that the same mutation will be repeated frequently enough to make any difference in the outcome. signed, I hope I got this rightjct
May 5, 2008
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gpuccio, A perfectly accepted theory is available to explain how nearly all these species came about and it is called the modern evolutionary synthesis. Because it fails on many examples, does not mean it fails on all. As a theory it can explain most of the species but like Newton's theory fails to explain all.jerry
May 5, 2008
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the last line got cut in a place It is supposed to read "You see I believe in a really intelligent designer that does not has to constantly re-do the basic plan."jerry
May 5, 2008
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Jerry: "The designer I believe in is very intelligent and probably could have produce all the biological wonderment in this world by creating much less than this number and then provided a mechanism that would lead to the rest." That's just a philosophical and religious statement, not even an argument. I was wondering if you had any scientific argument at all.gpuccio
May 5, 2008
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Salvador, "I think however the ancestral forms were created, but that answer appears to be unacceptable to you." I have never said any such thing, so why attribute this to me. gpuccio, 0.5% of 10,000,000 is ? It is 50,000. The designer I believe in is very intelligent and probably could have produce all the biological wonderment in this world by creating much less than this number and then provided a mechanism that would lead to the rest. You see I believe in a really intelligent re-do the basic plan.jerry
May 5, 2008
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As a bit of an aside, let us recall the exchange I had with Dave Thomas at PandasThumb last year: Dave Thomas says Cordova's Algorithm is Remarkable. Well, I thouroughly agree with Dave Thomas that my algorithm was remarkable! :-) But why did it work? Was it because of Natural Selection? If by "natural selection" one means the sort of selection intelligently designed to preclude random selection, then a qualified, "yes". But to call it "natural selection" is double-speak, it is not natural in the sense of what we see in biology based on the considerations I laid out in this thread..... The algorithm succeeded because gambler's ruin, genetic entropy, and the real behavior of mutations were not allowed into the algorithm. Thus the typical genetic algorithm is not an appropriate model of real evolution in biological reality.... To uphold such examples as evidence in favor of Darwinism is very disingenuous...scordova
May 5, 2008
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Jerry: "You see I claim that 99.5% of the species come from naturalistic means. If you do not agree then where did they come from and how?" Just for curiosity: I understand your claim, you have made it repeatedly, and now you are even pretty quantitative about it. No problem, everyone is entitled to have his own ideas. But why are you so sure that species did not come by design, as all the other levels of biological information that you apparently believe have been designed? Have you any real argument for that strange conviction? Is perhaps the huge number of the final species which scaries you? Do you think the designer would get tired in designing them? Or have you some other type of argument? For instance, we could just analyze what is known of two very similar (morphologically almost indistinguishable) species of worms, among the simplest in the world: c. elegans and c. briggsae. Their genomes have been completely sequenced. C. elegans is, indeed, probably the best studied multicellular organism in the world: we know individually each cell, each neuron, each neuronal connection. C. briggsae is being studied very extensively too, and numerous studies of comparative genomics are available for the two species. Have you, or anyone else, with all that abundance of knowledge, a clear theory of how that speciation took place, by RV + NS? And if you cannot say how it happened for that very simple instance, how can you be so sure that RV + NS did the trick for all the incredibly numerous (as you correctly affirm) species os higher animals, almost all of them much more complex and different one from the other?gpuccio
May 5, 2008
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You see I claim that 99.5% of the species come from naturalistic means.
Natural selection (as Darwin defined it) isn't naturalistic, it's not even a tautology, it's an inchoherent ideology. If you don't like my answer of front loaded special creation, fine. But I surely don't think natural selection (in the Darwinian sense) is the answer and it is double speak to call it "natural selection" because the Darwinian conception is anything but what we actually see in nature. The phrase "Natural Selection" is like saying someone who is homeosexual dying miserably from AIDS is "gay". That person in anything but "gay" in the traditional sense. Darwin was a rhetorician skilled in double speak. So in answer to your question, "so where did the 99% come from", since you phrased the question to exclude any possibility of front-loaded creation, the best I can say apart from those possibilities is, "I don't know." I do know however, Darwinism is not the answer, and it doesn't not even qualify as a naturalistic possibility because it is logically and empirically refuted through purely naturalistic assumptions as I have laid out in this thread. Mutation and random drift combined with geographical isolation seems to be good "naturalistic" answers for origin of species from the ancestral forms. I think however the ancestral forms were created, but that answer appears to be unacceptable to you. Fine. Perhaps, "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer to you. And as far as the ancestral form being created, Darwin suggested that the progenitor of all species was created Origin of Species Chapter 14:
the first creature, the progenitor of innumerable extinct and living descendants, was created. Charles Darwin
Since you asked me a question, to which I responded, "I don't know", I'll ask you. Do you think Darwin was right that the first life "was created".scordova
May 5, 2008
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Apollos, I agree with much of what you are saying. But what is random selection? What actually causes the different varieties? And what determines if the variety persists in the ecology it finds itself in?jerry
May 5, 2008
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Bob O'H: "It doesn’t matter than Darwin mis-understood something" The eliticists of the day didn't care much about the niceties either...they just wanted to push the theory because it served their evil purposes and sort of gave them a scientific justification for subjugating the weak and/or those of a lower natural order, you know, the whole ‘survival of the fittest' and ‘struggle for existence’ mantra. It is no coincidence that Darwin the English scientist gave great impetus to Rothschild the English banker... (poor Abe Lincoln…if only he had obliged and not printed that fiat paper money to finance the civil war) ...and it continues to this day even though "we have gone beyond Darwin’s understanding". Yeah, “fundies say the darndest things.”JPCollado
May 5, 2008
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From what I'm gathering, NS can't actually create any diversity, it can only eliminate it. So while one can possibly point to NS as the reason we see a predominance of a certain species in specific geographical locations, it does nothing whatsoever to account for the origin of biodiversity. NS is a destructive force that reduces variety in populations. The mechanism for the diversity is found elsewhere (Front Loading, RV, ?) Here's an image from the Natural Selection article on Wikipedia:
Schematic representation of how antibiotic resistance is enhanced by natural selection. The top section represents a population of bacteria before exposure to an antibiotic. The middle section shows the population directly after exposure, the phase in which selection took place. The last section shows the distribution of resistance in a new generation of bacteria. The legend indicates the resistance levels of individuals. Natural Selection
In the above, Natural Selection is a description of the final effect, where the surviving population resulted from a mutation that conferred antibiotic resistance. The net genetic diversity of the population is reduced. I think some would agree that NS isn't itself a force, but our description of the result of environmental and other natural factors effects on preexisting biodiversity. What I'm gathering from this Gambler's Ruin post is that excepting more extreme environmental factors, we will generally observe very little Natural Selection in action. Varieties conferring only slight survival advantage will be treated by natural factors, very much the same as the rest of the population. Random Selection is quite possibly a much more significant effect. RS+NV anyone? I'd appreciate correction if I've missed the point.Apollos
May 5, 2008
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Salvador, So where does the 99% of the tens of millions of species come from if not natural selection? Any estimate by percentages. Please don't cite theories you do not believe in. Where did all the beetle species come from? cichlids? birds? other fish? other insects? You see I claim that 99.5% of the species come from naturalistic means. If you do not agree then where did they come from and how?jerry
May 5, 2008
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Bob OH, Thank you by the way for the paper you referenced about the selective advantage being about 1%. Noremacam, Thank you for advertising this discussion. Salscordova
May 5, 2008
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So these are the mechanism for all the tens of millions of various species in all the ecological nooks and crannies all over the world. Is this what you subscribe to? No place for natural selection in all this variety.
At least statistically speaking 5% could be attributed to natural selection. That would be extremely generous in my humble opinion. 1% would still be too generous. So NS has a place, not much of one. Dawkins pointed out that Mutationism, not Darwinism was the competing view. The kind of mutationsm that may have been front-loaded does not appear to be in large measure today. We see some hints of Adaptive Mutation. I keep hearing of mutations being "random with respect to fitness". But how is fitness defined? Malthusian, Dhobzhanzy-Wright? Or how about the problems of defining fitness as pointed out by Lewontin? If we use the Malthusian notion, it is clear that considerations from Gambler's Ruin effectively trash the Malthusian definition of fitness as being viable (except in computer programs that don't model reality). A fruitful research program was indirectly suggested by Behe for trying to find the remenants of front-loaded evolution in the existing genome, and trying to replay the evolution of various life forms from a synthetic ancestral form. A crude approach would be to hybridize a creature from what we believe are ancestrally related species and see if they naturally unwind into the forms we see today. A Zorse or Hebra is an example of the idea... For example, hard as it is, could we (through breeding and engineering) create a synthetic ancestor that would de-repress into wolves, coyotees, foxes, dogs, jackals, etc... The grand prize would probably be synthezing the ancestor(s) involved in Marsupials and Placentals: a case of front-loaded, pre-programmed, designed evolution.scordova
May 5, 2008
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Contrast this with Darwin’s misunderstanding of basic population genetics:
Sal, are you aware that we have gone beyond Darwin's understanding? It doesn't matter than Darwin mis-understood something: he wasn't omniscient, and we have built on his ideas since then. Your point that most mutations go extinct is correct, and well known. You stopped at the point when you should start: showing that the rate at which beneficial mutations become fixed is too slow for evolution to have occurred.Bob O'H
May 5, 2008
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Salvador, By the way Mike Gene was on ASA arguing for what seemed to be the Darwinian view of evolution.jerry
May 5, 2008
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About this time last May -- May 2007 -- Robert Marks contacted me and offered me the opportunity for tuition and salary to work at his newly formed Evolution Informatics Lab at Baylor. The value to me was betwee $30,000 - $40,000... I got the offer because of a very strong referral from Bill.... The offer was for a Master of Science in Electrical and Computer Engineering. The issues of Darwinian evolution should in the modern day be scrutinized from the fields of math and engineering and population genetics.... One of the things that would have been a worthy research project is comparing the fidelity of Evolutionary Algorithms like Genetic Algorithms to Darwinian Evolution and Real Evolution. It appears to me that Genetic Algorithms succeed because they do not have to be confronted with the intense effects of "random selection" that we see in nature. I would argue that the elimination of realistic "random selection" from genetic algorithms invalidates them as a model of real biolgoical evolution. Thus genetic algorithms like Avida, to the extent they do not model biological reality, ensure the appearance of a "free lunch". And we know, there is No Free Lunch (NFL). The issues raised in this thread would have been valuable issues to investigate had Baylor not shut down the lab. I'm confident however, Baylor probably helped ensure the interest in these esoteric but important topics will only grow. The Martyrdom of the Evolution Informatics Lab will not be forgotten and others will rise to carry on!scordova
May 5, 2008
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Salvador "Front Loaded Evolution (Mike Gene and others) or Prescribed Evolution Hypothesis (PEH) by Davison. Spetner argues for NREH (non-Random Evolutionary Hypothesis)." So these are the mechanism for all the tens of millions of various species in all the ecological nooks and crannies all over the world. Is this what you subscribe to? No place for natural selection in all this variety.jerry
May 5, 2008
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the easy way to conceptualize this is consider 10 individuals, each with 4,000,000,000 nucleotides in their genome. Each was gets 1 good mutation and 20,000 bad to neutral mutations in their germline. 5 successfully pass on their good genes, the other 5 are unsuccesful. It is clear which ever 5 you pick, that we’ll be killing half of what little good mutations occurred and ensuring lots and lots of what is bad are infused the population. The trend is clear for an increasing proportion of what is bad. We call this Genetic Entropy. If once a beneficial mutation appears there are still all sorts of random hurdles it has to clear that have nothing to do with its fitness, then you might as well say it hasn't even occured until it clears all those hurdles. Just say its a nonentity, it never happened at all, until it reaches a point where its benefit can be manifested. (Sort of a general response to the article.) Of those 20000 "bad to neutral" mutations that accompany it (1 bad 19999 neutral?) it doesn't seem like they're all that bad if they can be passed around, propogated and multiplied for any length of time. Just some informal remarks. You don't have to respond to this.JunkyardTornado
May 5, 2008
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