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Gambler’s ruin is Darwin’s ruin

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The same day I first watched “Expelled” in theaters, I also watched the movie “21”. The movie “21” is based on the true story of MIT students who made a fortune in Las Vegas casinos through the use of mathematics.

The real story behind the movie began with an associate of Claude Shannon by the name of Dr. Edward O. Thorp of MIT. In the Early 60’s, Thorp published a landmark mathematical treatise on how to beat casinos. His research was so successful that Las Vegas casinos shut down many of their card tables for an entire year until they could devise counter measures to impede Thorp’s mathematics.

Thorp is arguably the greatest gambler of all time. He extended his gambling science to the stock market and made a fortune. His net worth is in the fractional to low billions. He is credited with some independent discoveries which were the foundation to the Black-Scholes-Merton equation relating heat transfer thermodynamics to stock option pricing. The equation won the Nobel prize and was the subject of the documentary: The Trillion Dollar Bet.

Thorp would probably be even richer today if Rudy Gulliani had not falsely implicated him in the racketeering scandal involving Michael Milken. Thorp, by the way, keeps a dartboard with Gulliani’s picture on it… 🙂

The relevance of Thorp’s math to Darwinism is that Thorp was a pioneer of risk management (which he used to create the world’s first hedge fund). In managing a hedge fund or managing the wagers in casinos, one is confronted with the mathematically defined problem of Gambler’s Ruin. The science of risk management allows a risk manager or a skilled gambler to defend against the perils gamblers ruin. Unfortunately for Darwinism, natural selection has little defense against the perils of gambler’s ruin.

Even if an individual has a statistical advantage over a casino game, it is possible the individual can lose. Let’s say a skilled player has a 1% advantage on average over the casino. He wanders into the casino, looks for a favorable opportunity and wagers $500,000.00.

If he has a 1% statistical advantage, that means he has a 50.5% chance of winning and a 49.5% chance of losing. Even though he has a slight edge, he still has a very substantial chance of losing. It would be unwise to bet $500,000.00 if that is his life savings!

The movie “21” romanticized the advantage skilled players have. The movie “21” portrayed the MIT students as people who could sit at card tables and bilk casinos like ATM machines. That’s not how it works as testified by one of the more noteworthy members of the real MIT team by the name of Andy Bloch. Bloch reported that during his tenure as manager of the MIT team, the team was once in the red for 9 months before recovering. Skilled players lose big bets not quite 50% of the time. It is not unusual, on average, to have a losing streak of 8 hands in a row every 256 rounds. Ben Mezrich reported in his book, Bringing Down the House, an incident where the Big Player of the MIT team lost 3 hands in a row in 45 seconds of play for a sum total of $120,000.00! It happens…

A skilled player with a 1% advantage might expect to play 50,000 hands before his expected value exceeds the effect of one standard deviation of bad luck. That means he might have to play a looooong time before he realizes a profit….

What does this have to do with Darwinism? Darwin argued that

Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps.”

But that is complete nonsense mathematically speaking because of the problem of gambler’s ruin. It is not surprising that Darwin could not see the flaw in his argument because he could not even do high school algebra even after substantial effort. The lack of basic math and logic pervades his flawed theory.

The problem is that a selectively-advantaged traits are still subject to random events. The most basic random event is with whether a parent will even pass down a gene to a child in the first place! Added to that problem is the nature of random events in general. A genetically advantaged individual may die by accident, get consumed by a predator, etc.

And the problem gets worse. Even if selectively advantage traits get spread to a small percentage of the population, it still has a strong chance of being wiped out by the sum total of random events. The mathematics of gambler’s ruin helped clarify the effect of random “selection” on natural selection.

Without going into details, I’ll quote the experts who investigated the issues. Consider the probability a selectively advantaged trait will survive in a population a mere 7 generations after it emerges:

if a mutant gene is selectively neutral the probability is 0.79 that it will be lost from the population
….
if the mutant gene has a selective advantage of 1%, the probability of loss during the fist seven generations is 0.78. As compared with the neutral mutant, this probability of extinction [with natural selection] is less by only .01 [compared to extinction by purely random events].
….

Theoretical Aspects of Population Genetics
Motoo Kimura and Tomoko Ohta

This means is that natural selection is only slightly better than random chance. Darwin was absolutely wrong to suggest that the emergence of a novel trait will be preserved in most cases. It will not! Except for extreme selection pressures (like antibiotic resistance, pesticide resistance, anti-malaria drug resistance), selection fails to make much of an impact.

The contrast between a skilled gambler and natural selection is that a skilled player can wager small fractions of the money he sets aside for his trade. If a skilled gambler has $50,000, he might wager $100 at a time until the law of large numbers causes his statistical advantage to be asserted. He can attempt many many trials until his advantage eventually prevails. In this manner a skilled gambler can protect himself against the mathematics of gamblers ruin.

But natural selection is a blind watchmaker. It does not know how to perform risk management like a skilled player or the great math wizard, Edward Thorp. For natural selection to succeed in the way Thorp succeeded in the great casinos of Nevada and Wall Street, it has to hope the same mutant appears spontaneously many many times in many individuals. But for complex genes, this doesn’t happen. Truly novel and beneficial mutations are rare. They don’t repeat themselves very often, and when they arise, they will likely be wiped out unless there is fairly intense selection pressure (like we see in pesticide resistance or anti-biotic resistance or anti-malaria drug resistance, or malaria resistance associated with sickle cell anemia).

A further constraint on selective advantage of a given trait is the problem of selection interference and dilution of selective advantage if numerous traits are involved. If one has a population of 1000 individuals and each has a unique, novel, selectively-advantaged trait that emerged via mutation, one can see this leads to an impasse –selection can’t possibly work in such a situation since all the individuals effectively cancel out each other’s selective advantage.

This illustrates that there has to be a limit to the number of innovations appearing in a population simultaneously for selection to work. The emergence of advantageous mutations in a population has the net effect of diluting the selective advantage of all the traits.

If trait A has a large selective advantage in relation to trait B, trait A dilutes the selective advantage of trait B. Thus trait B is exposed more and more to gambler’s ruin because of the existence of trait A. For example an individual with better eyesight (trait A) might prevail over an individual with higher intelligence (trait B). An otherwise good trait (intelligence) is lost because another trait (good eyesight) interferes with the ability of that trait (intelligence) to be maintained…

Thus one can see the problem of many “slight advantageous traits” being necessarily “slight” because of the problem of interference. But “slight” implies they are subject to gambler’s ruin, and thus unlikely to be preserved as Darwin asserted. Thus Darwin was dead wrong….

John Sanford gives a more rigorous treatment in his book Genetic Entropy where he gives more exact numbers on the limits of selective advantage based on problems such as interference. Sanford shows that a 1% selective advantage is fairly generous, and is usually less than 1%. [I emphasize the word “usually”].

Most ironic is that Fisher’s analysis of the effect of gambler’s ruin essentially trashes his own theorem, Fisher’s Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection. Fisher’s Malthusian notions of “fitness” in his fundamental theorem do not account for the effect of random events taking out selectively advantaged traits. The fundamental theorem assumes evolution is noise free with respect to fitness, that advantageous traits always result in more offspring. We know empirically and theoretically this cannot possibly be true even on the approximate model of Mendelian inheritance.

For reasons such as those I laid out, many believe molecular evolution had to be mostly invisible to selection. Attributing even 5% of molecular evolution to Darwinism would be extremely generous. See: Kimura’s Neutral Theory.

Kimura gave an obligatory salute to Darwin by claiming adaptational features (like morphology) are exempt from his math. I’ve seen nothing supporting Kimura’s obligatory salute to Darwin. It seems his neutralist ideas apply quite well to realms beyond the molecular. NAS member Masotoshi Nei has finally been bold enough to assert most everything else about evolution, not just molecular evolution, is under much less selection pressure than previously assumed. I think Nei is right.

Yesterday afternoon I showed Kimura’s books to an ID-friendly senior in biology. His jaw dropped. He had studied molecular genetics, but our conversation yesterday helped him make the connections he had not made before. The math clearly indicates Darwin couldn’t possibly be right, and by way of extension, neither can Richard Dawkins.

These fairly obvious considerations were not lost upon Michael Lynch:

the uncritical acceptance of natural selection as an explanatory force for all aspects of biodiversity (without any direct evidence) is not much different than invoking an intelligent designer

Michael Lynch
The Origins of Genome Architecture, p 368

Notes:

1. I created a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet is provided for illustration of these concepts. I used a random number generator to simulate the progress of 10 equally skilled gamblers in a casino. Press the “F9” to redraw the graph. One can see that even “selectively” advantaged individuals can lose. The important thing to grasp is that “slight selective” advantages do not look very different from random walks except in the long run. The problem for natural selection in the wild is that there usually is no “long run” for a newly emerged trait if it suffers from gamblers ruin. The “long run” exists for skilled and intelligent risk managers like Edward Thorp, it does not exist, statistically speaking, for most selectively advantageous traits.

A copy of my spreadsheet can be accessed here.

Sometimes pressing “F9” will cause most of the gamblers to win, and other time it will cause most of them to lose. This underscores the strong effect of random events even when one possess an inherent statistical advantage such as a gambling skill or a selectively advantaged trait.

2. Here is a nice pic of Bill with a standard casino die.

In the 1970’s, casinos had to redesign their craps tables in order to foil skilled dice throwers who exploited slightly non-random behaviors of dice. Las Vegas laws were passed that prevented skilled players from using there specially designed tosses which would exhibit non-random, statistically advantageous behavior.

Some people still claim to be able to influence dice so as to create non-random outcomes in a legal way. However, even skilled crap shooters need principles of risk management and precautions against gambler’s ruin to succeed.

[UPDATE:

1. 5/5/08 World Renowned Geneticist Joe Felsenstein responds to my essay here: Gambler’s Ruin is Darwin’s Gain.

2. 5/5/08 HT: ICON-RIDS:

Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good.

C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species — Ch#4 Natural Selection

This is an even better quote showing how wrong Darwin was in light of these discussions.

See: this comment

3. Thanks to pantrog of PT for his editorial correction about sickle cell anemia. That was my editorial mistake not seeing it in the first place. My error was pointed out here here.

4. 5/8/08 One could easily modify the spreadsheet to stop progress when zero is hit, except if I did this, one would not easily see all the lines since most of them abort early thus giving a misleading impression of large scale progress. See this comment:
Comment about Spreadsheet

5. I wrote: If he has a 1% statistical advantage, that means he has a 50.5% chance of winning and a 49.5% chance of losing. To clarify, the outcomes are complicated by double-downs, splits, and blackjacks, etc. so the notion of “win” in this thread is effective average win over time per round….I didn’t want to get into these deep specifics earlier as it was peripheral to the thread…

6. 5/31/08 In response to various comments by those at UD and PandasThumb, I created another spreadsheet with some improvements. See the improvements at: ruin_olegt_mod1.xls. The princple changes were in response to suggestions by a very fine physicist by the name of Olegt who sometimes posts at TelicThoughts and PT. The new simulation has more rounds and actually prevents a player from playing once he is ruined.

]

Comments
Jerry wrote: If natural selection or some other naturalistic process is not working then where did all the variety of species in the world come from and why do they seem to fit their ecology just fine. Don’t tell me each was created separately to fit their environment. No one will take you seriously including nearly all the top ID writers.
Front Loaded Evolution (Mike Gene and others) or Prescribed Evolution Hypothesis (PEH) by Davison. Spetner argues for NREH (non-Random Evolutionary Hypothesis). The human immune system is an illustration of designed mutations. Not even creationists believe in the fixity of species and God creating every species for every adaptation. That was the strawman version of creationist theory which Darwin promoted. The idea of evolution shaping species was pioneered by creationists like E. Blyth. See: Was Blyth the true scientist and Darwin merely a plagiarist and charlatan?. Darwin said:
I never happened to come across a single [naturalist] who seemed to doubt about the permanence of species ...
Which is an outright falsehood since Darwin knew the creationist Blyth and Blyth argued for the "indefinite radiation" of species from ancestral forms. The current creationist-frontloading synethsis is expressed by biologist Chris Ashraft Evolution: God's Greatest Creation.scordova
May 5, 2008
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Salvador, If natural selection or some other naturalistic process is not working then where did all the variety of species in the world come from and why do they seem to fit their ecology just fine. Don't tell me each was created separately to fit their environment. No one will take you seriously including nearly all the top ID writers. And just for those of you who read this and react reflexively, I strongly accept ID.jerry
May 5, 2008
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groovamos wrote: Thermodynamics and heat flow are two different areas of physics and mechanical engineering, with separately derived sets of equations for problem solution. Heat flow problems were classically defined for solids early on, but are also defined for other states of matter. The Black-Scholes-Merton equation is derived from the laws of heat flow. Thermodynamics is concerned with change of state, kinetic energy, potential energy, and energy conversion.
That is a nit-pick that is also an erroneous nit-pick. See the discussion of Black-Scholes from the perspective of Brownian motion and Statistical Mechanics Here. That discussion includes thermodynamics and heat flow.
Equation 10 is the famous Black-Scholes equation. Its solutions are widely adopted for financial analysis by traders, fund managers, economists, and so on. The Equation can be further transformed into standard form of the heat diffusion equation from Physics (Thermodynamics)
scordova
May 5, 2008
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It will be the third time I have posted the following - a point I made (really just a query) about a contention from your own article which no one else has commented on.
It appears that my example of 1000 individuals confused the issue for you. I provided a simpler example with:
the easy way to conceptualize this is consider 10 individuals, each with 4,000,000,000 nucleotides in their genome. Each was gets 1 good mutation and 20,000 bad to neutral mutations in their germline. 5 successfully pass on their good genes, the other 5 are unsuccesful. It is clear which ever 5 you pick, that we’ll be killing half of what little good mutations occurred and ensuring lots and lots of what is bad are infused the population. The trend is clear for an increasing proportion of what is bad. We call this Genetic Entropy.
So if this example is a clearer conception of Random Selection, Selection Interference, and Genetic Entropy, take that. Take that as my response to your question. You may argue I confused the issue with my example of 1000 individuals. Fine. I provided something a little simpler and hopefully clearer. Darwinism fails on mathematical grounds alone. I hope that is clear. Genetic Entropy is a more accurate description of evolution, not Darwinism.scordova
May 5, 2008
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sal: It will be the third time I have posted the following - a point I made (really just a query) about a contention from your own article which no one else has commented on. Since I'm not an expert I wouldn't rule out the possibility of error in the following. Mind pointing out what it is. "Also, as long as I have your attention, how would you respond to the following from my original post: (Not sure if I’m thinking clearly on this, just wondered what the response was.) (sal:)A further constraint on selective advantage of a given trait is the problem of selection interference and dilution of selective advantage if numerous traits are involved. If one has a population of 1000 individuals and each has a unique, novel, selectively-advantaged trait that emerged via mutation, one can see this leads to an impasse -selection can’t possibly work in such a situation since all the individuals effectively cancel out each other’s selective advantage. (JT:)So would this mean that if in a population of 1000 individuals each had a harmful dibilitating selectively-disadvantaged mutation, the disdavantages would be cancelled out and these mutations would be rendered neutral. If so, these traits would maintain the same ratio in relation to each other in the population, but the species would dwindle to extinction. As far as beneficial mutations rendered “neutral”, if the entire population experiences a sharp peak, (IOW all traits are resulting in an increase in reproduction) then there are more chances for even “neutral” mutations to be preserved (right?)”JunkyardTornado
May 5, 2008
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The problem posed with Gambler's Ruin and "Random Selection" is severe for natural selection on the side of what is bad. Contrast this with Darwin's misunderstanding of basic population genetics:
"[The]preservation of favourable individual differences and variations, and the destruction of those which are injurious, I have called Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest." -- "Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good". -- C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species -- Ch#4 Natural Selection C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species -Ch#4 Natural Selection
NO! NO! NO! I have shown why the slightest good has little chance of surviving. Furthermore, if "Random Selection" overpowers Darwin's natural selection the ratio of bad to good mutations is fairly high, then the infusion into the population of what is bad will be substantially higher than what is good. I pointed out the problem of weeding out the bad in Nachman's U-Paradox. However, as I said, the easy way to conceptualize this is consider 10 individuals, each with 4,000,000,000 nucleotides in their genome. Each was gets 1 good mutation and 20,000 bad to neutral mutations in their germline. 5 successfully pass on their good genes, the other 5 are unsuccesful. It is clear which ever 5 you pick, that we'll be killing half of what little good mutations occurred and ensuring lots and lots of what is bad are infused the population. The trend is clear for an increasing proportion of what is bad. We call this Genetic Entropy. It is clear from this example, Darwin could not possibly be right. Darwin couldn't do high school algebra even after much effort and a tutor to spoon feed it to him. He doesn't deserve to be in the "genius corner" of Westminster Abby. Perhaps we ought to transplant his coffin to the dunce corner. HT: ICON-RIDS weblog for the Darwin quotes.scordova
May 5, 2008
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Once its numbers are large enough, the Law of Large Numbers comes into play, and the dynamics are essentially deterministic (or at least independent of demographic stochasticity).
There is a nuance to this observation and is worth investigating. One way to look at it is the probability of extinction in an infinitely large population. If the initial infusion of mutants was not one mutant but say thousands of identical mutants, then the law of large numbers is very helpful to prevent extinction and then non-linear considerations apply. We don't worry about overtake of the population as much as exitinction from the population. I seem to recall Michael Lynch's book discussed the issue. If however the intial infusion is only one mutant, then one must look at the probablity of extinction, which is extremely high. But since novel mutations involving more than a few nucleotides rarely come in more than one individual at a time, then the risk of ruin is high. Unless... we are dealing with something like malaria and chloroquine resistance. We could of course factor in the multiple appearances of the same mutant over time. It appears chloroquine anti-malarial resistance had a few multiple appearances at different times and geographical locations, thus "ruin" of chloroquine resistance was prevented by multiple entry (the mutation was relatively trivial and thus appeared abundantly in numerous places...not to mention, if I recall correctly, we're dealing with haploids not diploids, making the odds even more favorable).... But Behe's point in Edge of Evolution was that HIV and malaria were still slow considering the very large trials involved, and the mutations involved were relatively trivial...the Edge of Evolution showed that natural selection had little foresight for irreducible complexity, that Dawkins' hope for natural selection overcoming combinatorial barriers was deeply suspect.scordova
May 5, 2008
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Interesting . . . Just for fun, I wish to toss in a further ingredient, courtesy Loennig, circa 2004:
. . . examples like the horseshoe crab [morphological stasis over an estimated 250 mn yrs] are by no means rare exceptions from the rule of gradually evolving life forms . . . In fact, we are literally surrounded by 'living fossils' in the present world of organisms when applying the term more inclusively as "an existing species whose similarity to ancient ancestral species indicates that very few morphological changes have occurred over a long period of geological time" [85] . . . . Now, since all these "old features", morphologically as well as molecularly, are still with us, the basic genetical questions should be addressed in the face of all the dynamic features of ever reshuffling and rearranging, shifting genomes, (a) why are these characters stable at all and (b) how is it possible to derive stable features from any given plant or animal species by mutations in their genomes? . . . . A first hint for answering the questions . . . is perhaps also provided by Charles Darwin himself when he suggested the following sufficiency test for his theory [16]: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly [Selective hyperskepticism alert . . .] have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." . . . Biochemist Michael J. Behe [5] has refined Darwin's statement by introducing and defining his concept of "irreducibly complex systems", specifying: "By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning" . . . [for example] (1) the cilium, (2) the bacterial flagellum with filament, hook and motor embedded in the membranes and cell wall and (3) the biochemistry of blood clotting in humans . . . . One point is clear: granted that there are indeed many systems and/or correlated subsystems in biology, which have to be classified as irreducibly complex and that such systems are essentially involved in the formation of morphological characters of organisms, this would explain both, the regular abrupt appearance of new forms in the fossil record as well as their constancy over enormous periods of time. For, if "several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function" are necessary for biochemical and/or anatomical systems to exist as functioning systems at all (because "the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning") such systems have to (1) originate in a non-gradual manner and (2) must remain constant as long as they are reproduced and exist. And this could mean no less than the enormous time periods mentioned for all the living fossils hinted at above. Moreover, an additional phenomenon would also be explained: (3) the equally abrupt disappearance of so many life forms in earth history . . . The reason why irreducibly complex systems would also behave in accord with point (3) is also nearly self-evident: if environmental conditions deteriorate so much for certain life forms (defined and specified by systems and/or subsystems of irreducible complexity), so that their very existence be in question, they could only adapt by integrating further correspondingly specified and useful parts into their overall organization, which prima facie could be an improbable process -- or perish . . . . According to Behe and several other authors [5-7, 21-23, 53-60, 68, 86] the only adequate hypothesis so far known for the origin of irreducibly complex systems is intelligent design (ID) . . . in connection with Dembski's criterion of specified complexity . . . . "For something to exhibit specified complexity therefore means that it matches a conditionally independent pattern (i.e., specification) of low specificational complexity, but where the event corresponding to that pattern has a probability less than the universal probability bound and therefore high probabilistic complexity" [23]. For instance, regarding the origin of the bacterial flagellum, Dembski calculated a probability of 10^-234[22].
Have fun! I'll be watching this thread GEM of TKI PS: Very good job, Sal!kairosfocus
May 5, 2008
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untgss @ 26 (and relevant to your post 32) -
Seems like something of a catch 22. To get the mutations you have to have a large population, but having a large population prevents the new mutation from setting, and ultimately wipes it out unless there’s a substantial selection advantage.
For neutral mutations, the rate of accumulation of mutations is independent of the population size, because of this. The effect of population size on fixation of an advantageous mutant is non-linear. At small population sizes, drift dominates through the whole process, so a smaller population leads to a greater chance of fixation. In large populations, fixation is independent of population size, because extinction is only likely when the number of copies of the mutant is small. Once its numbers are large enough, the Law of Large Numbers comes into play, and the dynamics are essentially deterministic (or at least independent of demographic stochasticity). PaV @ 37 -
Bob, I can only get the abstract of the article you cite. But looking at a similar article from a year earlier, it appears that it works only with computer simulations.
No, they review real data. At some point I might get onto Sal's actual post - I want to dig through some books first (rather than try to derive the proofs I need myself).Bob O'H
May 4, 2008
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slightly off topic: Noted historian Victor Davis Hanson, on his website yesterday, posted a reprint of a review of Behe's Edge of Evolution by Terry Scambray. The review originally appeared in the Fall 2007 Faith and Reason. In discussing the term "irreducible compleity," Scambray gives one of the most succinct descriptions of the culture war in which we are engaged that I've ever read (emphasis added).
...The 18th-century naturalist theologian William Paley argued that the existence of something complicated like a watch means that there must be a Watchmaker who purposely designed such a complicated artifact. However, generations of students have been told that David Hume, who lived before Paley, had delivered a lethal blow to such an argument. First, argued Hume, given enough time, nature could self assemble anything. Secondly, human artifacts have wheels, cogs and gears; nature was categorically different than a watch with its discrete parts. Nature apparently was a swirl of things that somehow functioned. Hume’s first rationale against design was undercut by the Big Bang and the findings of modern paleontology, both of which severely restrict the amount of time available for natural forces to get working. And then professor Behe came along and showed in his first book, Darwin’s Black Box, that a naturally occurring object like the bacterial flagellum with its propeller, shaft, o-rings and dozens, even hundreds of other precisely tailored parts, all of which function harmoniously, are not merely comparable to, but exactly like a humanly designed engine. Behe introduced the phrase “irreducible complexity” to describe such unimaginably sublime complexity, symmetry and harmony. Since then, “irreducible complexity” has gained wide usage in the way that the word “existential” became a staple among the cognoscenti since the end of WWII. But a profound difference separates the two expressions, a difference which illustrates the major divide in modernity. For “irreducible complexity” suggests a world of ordered complexity which can only be the product of a purposeful mind — or Mind; whereas “existential” suggests a contingent world, where meaning is an afterthought, congealed accidentally from colliding atoms. The contrast between these words reveals the basis for much of the contentiousness and conflict in the 20th century...
Actually, the scientifically-based counterattack against last century's materialism has only just begun.jstanley01
May 4, 2008
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Interesting post and connection Sal. I'm glad I could help inspire it in some small way.Atom
May 4, 2008
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There are so many mathematical problems with neo-Darwinian theory that they would be impossible to enumerate. The bottom line is that the "theory" suggests that entropic processes can produce negentropic results. It's the biggest get-something-for-nothing (or even worse, get-something-for-less-than-nothing) scam in the history of science, and it's not that hard to figure out.GilDodgen
May 4, 2008
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OK please print the following; Each new mutation is a new hand. Some of those mutations (hands) have a built in advantage of 1% or higher. All of these mutations are different and only similar in that they confer some sort of advantage. After thousands of rounds - who will be the winner and have all the resources - the one playing the hands with at least a slight advantage. Certainly individual hands with a slight advantage will lose repeatedly. BUT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE LONG RUN?????? FOR CRYING OUT LOUD I'M NOT THE ONE IN ERROR HERE. Please get a clue. Getting hostile, are we? Please understand that ID proponents do not hold Darwinian processes to be completely toothless. They do have an effect. The key point is that the effect is so limited. -- UD Admin Sincerest and Kindest regards- JunkJunkyardTornado
May 4, 2008
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Jerry: If this is true, then these deleterious mutations should show up in the genomes of various related species. For example, there are speculations that there are as many as 300,000 species of beetles. All these deleterious mutations should be in evidence in their genomes.
Correct. I have stated that Solexa technology could in principle give us the accuracy to actually see this in real time. If you're question then is "why don't we see it now", you presume biotic reality had existed for the last several hundreds of millions of years. Sanford is boldly predicting his Genetic Entropy thesis will be at variance with this view. In any case, it will be a testable hypothesis with the advent of Solexa technology. Perhaps it is premuture to debate this in detail until the data is in hand....scordova
May 4, 2008
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JT: Just like a gambler with a 51% advantage and enough time will eventually have everything
NO! NO! NO! You seem to be the only one here who fails to see that Natural Selection does not behave like a skilled gambler who applies risk management strategies. Most newly emerged selectively advantaged traits will not live to see the long run because "random selection" destroys most of their advantage early on.scordova
May 4, 2008
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JT: Just like a gambler with a 51% advantage and enough time will eventually have everything That's the key mistake. A gambler with 51% advantage and enough time will not necessarily win everything -- because he could (and likely will) have lengthy losing streaks along the way -- and if one of his losing streaks is so bad that he runs out of money entirely, he's out of the game.ungtss
May 4, 2008
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"In natural selection would it not be the case that in the long run, mutations that confer any sort of advantage at all will predominate over mutations that confer no advantage" (Sal:) No. Kimura’s math showed most mutations that reach fixation are at best neutral. I actually did know about neutral mutations and understand that was I was saying was contradicting it. But I'm trying to figure out how the house edge concept would apply. Mutations do occur. Even those confering a 1% advantage will of course be repeatedly wiped out (just like someone beating the house over the long run will still lose repeatedly). However, in the long run in nature as well, those mutations that are left would have to be the ones that had at least conferred some marginal advantage. (Just like a gambler with a 51% advantage and enough time will eventually have everything.) I don't know what sort of victory this would be for Darwinists, just applying the principle you describe to Natural Selection. If you said something to disprove this I missed it. Also, as long as I have your attention, how would you respond to the following from my original post: (Not sure if I'm thinking clearly on this, just wondered what the response was.) (sal:)"A further constraint on selective advantage of a given trait is the problem of selection interference and dilution of selective advantage if numerous traits are involved. If one has a population of 1000 individuals and each has a unique, novel, selectively-advantaged trait that emerged via mutation, one can see this leads to an impasse –selection can’t possibly work in such a situation since all the individuals effectively cancel out each other’s selective advantage." (JT:)So would this mean that if in a population of 1000 individuals each had a harmful dibilitating selectively-disadvantaged mutation, the disdavantages would be cancelled out and these mutations would be rendered neutral. If so, these traits would maintain the same ratio in relation to each other in the population, but the species would dwindle to extinction. As far as beneficial mutations rendered “neutral”, if the entire population experiences a sharp peak, (IOW all traits are resulting in an increase in reproduction) then there are more chances for even “neutral” mutations to be preserved (right?)"JunkyardTornado
May 4, 2008
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In natural selection would it not be the case that in the long run, mutations that confer any sort of advantage at all will predominate over mutations that confer no advantage
No. Kimura's math showed most mutations that reach fixation are at best neutral. The way to visualize this is consider a population of 10 individuals. Each individual has 4,000,000,000 nucleotides. Let's say 5 of the 10 individuals pass on their genes. You've guaranteed lots of novel good mutations (if they even emerged in the first place) have gotten wiped out and lots of bad fixed. That's the problem of selection interference. In fact, if the ratio of bad-to-neutral mutations is substantially larger than beneficial mutations (say a ratio of 10,000 to 1), then the majority of what gets fixed is bad- to-neutral, not beneficial.scordova
May 4, 2008
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Bob O'H: (quoting Sal)
Is there any research you could point me to to show the statistics of a mutation being beneficial?
Yes - there was a review last year. It’s of the order of 1% or so, but the estimates vary, and it’s difficult to get really good estimates, because mutations are rare in themselves.
Bob, I can only get the abstract of the article you cite. But looking at a similar article from a year earlier, it appears that it works only with computer simulations. And, of course, that means inputting values for variables that may or may not be realistic (i.e., there's some guessing involved), and mathematical formulism that has, of yet, been subjected to a rigourous comparison to genomic data for populations. So I think any conclusions they come up with should be taken with a grain of salt, given these limitations. (There are other limitations which are cited in the earlier paper)PaV
May 4, 2008
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DLH wrote: a designed system would be expected to exhibit some degree of optimization. (Apparent lack of full optimization would likely be caused by failure to recognize the full design and optimization involved.) Consequently, variations (mutations) away from that design would result in poorer function than the design. Consequently nearby mutations would be harmful or have a negative fitness relative to the designed system. Similarly in neo-Darwinian evolution, biotic systems that are “more fit” locally, would show a reduced fitness for immediate variations away from that configuration. In both cases, the local “fitness” has a local “hill” or upwardly convex surface. Deviations from the local configuration have a lower or negative fitness, resulting in a locally negative slope away from the design or evolved configuration. ... Applying this to the model design hypothesis, local variation from a designed system will experience a negative slope and local reduction in function. Similarly with the “fitness” of an “evolved” structure. The challenge for evolution is how to “jump” from one configurational mountain to the next configurational mountain - when then the variation required to move away from the local mountain results in substantial variational regional of negative slope in function or a reduced fitness. So, the premise of everything you wrote, if I understand correctly, is that species tend to be highly optimized for a specific niche, so any varation away from that will be detrimental in the short run, so how would this obstacle be surmounted. But it seems there are multitudinous examples of species that are highly optimized in certain ways and yet regularly make forays into other environments where they are comically ill-equipped to do so. In such areas there could be change without at all effecting the areas where they were optimized already. With marine mammals and birds this is very much in evidence. A walrus is highly optimized and graceful in the sea, but lumbers around like a big slug on the land where it spends most of its time. Would not marginal increase in land motility give male walrus's competing with others males for breeding purposes a big advantage, without effecting at all their means for making a living in the sea. Same example with birds that dive beneath the surface of the water for fish. (not increase in land motility but possibility something that increases capability in the sea.) Then you have polar bears, with webbing between toes and other adaptions for swimming and yet capable of interbreeding with grizzlies. Also, occasionally you can see a roach fly, but they're not all that good at it. The more I think about your idea the less sense it makes. Would an increase in lung capacity decrease the level of optimality of a dolphin? Apologies if I've missed your point.JunkyardTornado
May 4, 2008
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I believe Bill Gates wrote that in 1995, yet all comprehensive studies conducted by ENCODE have back his claim up immensly. As well; There are about.... Three-billion letters of code on that six feet of DNA. The DNA contains the “complete parts list” of the trillions upon trillions of proteins that are in your body, plus, it contains the blueprint of how all these countless trillions of proteins go together, plus it contains the self-assembly instructions that somehow tells all these countless proteins how to put themselves together in the proper way.If you were to read the code aloud, at a rate of three letters per second for twenty-four hours per day (about one-hundred-million letters a year), it would take you over thirty years to read it. The capacity of a DNA molecule to store information is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand-millionths of a gram. The information needed to specify the design of all species of organisms that have ever existed (a number estimated to be one billion) could easily fit into a teaspoon with plenty of room left over for every book ever written on the face of earth. For comparison sake, if mere man were to write out the proper locations of all those proteins in just one human body, in the limited mathematical language he now uses, it would take a bundle of CD-ROM disks greater than the size of the moon, or a billion-trillion computer hard drives, and that’s just the proper locations for the protein molecules in one human body, that billion-trillion computer hard-drives would not contain a single word of instruction telling those protein molecules how to self assemble themselves. The coding system used for living beings is optimal from an engineering standpoint. Of all possible mathematical combinations, the ideal number for storage and transcription has been calculated to be four letters. This is exactly what has been found in the DNA of every living thing on earth—a four-letter digital code. As Werner Gitt states: “The coding system used for living beings is optimal from an engineering standpoint." The atoms in a human being are the equivalent to the information mass of about a thousand billion billion billion bits. Even with today's top technology, this means it would take about 30 billion years to transfer this mass of data from one point to another. That's twice the age of the universe. There are about..... One-hundred trillion cells in the average person.Every human spent about half an hour as a single cell Each cell has over a million unique structures and processes (a complexity comparable to a large city ). Each cell consists of artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction and a capacity not equalled in any of our most advanced machines, for one of our most advanced machines would have to be capable of self-replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. Every one of those trillions of cells (except for the brain cells) is regenerated and replaced on average of every seven years! Each cell has about ten-thousand times as many molecules as our Milky Way galaxy has stars. When considering this absolutely staggering level of complexity it is apparent that life "accidentally" evolving is absolutely impossible by unintelligent means. Darwinian Evolution is sheer fantasy of the highest magnitude as far as hard science and evidence is concerned.bornagain77
May 4, 2008
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Here's the source: The understanding of life is a great subject. Biological information is the most important information we can discover, because over the next several decades it will revolutionize medicine. Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced then any software ever created. The Road Ahead; Bill Gates pg. 188bornagain77
May 4, 2008
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bornagain77: In your last post, you stated: "The human genome, according to Bill Gates the founder of Microsoft, far, far surpasses in complexity any computer program ever written by man." I've seen this statement before in the literature. Do you, or does anyone else, know the source? I'm just curious.vjtorley
May 4, 2008
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Scordova: Exactly!!!! Spetner was keen to realize this. His book highlights the catch-22. I was just thinking, and there's a counterpoint to this catch 22 -- the larger the population, the less intense the pressure from genetic drift. That might permit new mutations to survive long enough to get picked up by natural selection. Did Spetner address this in his book to your knowledge?ungtss
May 4, 2008
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Scordova: Exactly!!!! Spetner was keen to realize this. His book highlights the catch-22. Fun! I'll have to read the book.ungtss
May 4, 2008
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True. On the other hand, the smaller the population, the less individuals are available to “host” the new mutation. That is to say, if you’ve got a population of 10,000,000, you’ve got a much better chance of getting some lucky mutations than if you’ve got a population of 10. Seems like something of a catch 22.
Exactly!!!! Spetner was keen to realize this. His book highlights the catch-22.scordova
May 4, 2008
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DLH, Regarding the question of gambler's ruin as it relates to casino games and biology... Let's say you spent 2 years training to join the MIT 21 team. You have the skill to watch a stream of cards come out a deck. You know that if certain cards are dealt, that gives you information about what cards remain in the deck. You fine tune your skill such that you know when to lay down a bet at the casino when you have an advantage of 1% over the casino ("the house")..... But lets say you wish to set a record by turning $100 into $1,000,000 You attempt to do this by putting $100 in your wallet and wandering over to a nice casino. You lay down a $100 bet and decide you just keep laying down $100 bets until you either go broke or have $1,000,000 The ordinary intuition is that your first bet has a 50.5% of success, thus, if you win that first bet you should be good to go....your chance of success would seem on the order of 50.5% or something in the ballpark. The hard reality is your chance of success is less than 1.7% (or some number close to it) So even though you had a slight advantage, it will not prevail. A similar situation occurs when an individual with advantageous trait is introduced into a population of 1,000,000 other individuals. That individual is unlikely to overtake the population and spread its trait to the entire population. Darwinists point to pesticide and anti-biotic resistance to show cases where this happens, where a single individual overtakes a population. But this is the logical fallacy of a hasty generalization since selection rarely operates with such strength in the wild. Also, when seleciton of this sort happens, lots of other "beneficial mutations" are lost. Such examples actually destroy Darwin's theory if one is willing to look at the problem of "interference selection" which anti-biotic and pesticide resistance create. Who knows how many "slightly advantageous" traits were lost in the powerfully selective sweeps that happen in anti-biotic and pesticide resistance....scordova
May 4, 2008
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Regarding the frequently asked question of how Sanford's genetic entropy concept may be compatible with the actual survival of biological beings, we could perhaps consider that intelligently designed mechanisms to preserve DNA information are universally active in the biological world. Those mechanisms are a fundamental part of the real scenario, because the real scenario is one of constant interaction (and fight) between design and purpose on one side, and chance and entropy and meaninglessness on the other.gpuccio
May 4, 2008
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Scordova: Thank you for the very interesting article, which adds more fuel to the arguments against darwinian evolution, and clarifies many important aspects. I would try to make a brief summary of some important points, as we often discuss them separately, and can't see them in their logical relations: 1) Random variation (RV) is the only available engine of variation in theories which exclude design. All the recognized causal mechanisms of variation (sinlge point mutations, deletions, inversions, duplications, genetic drift, and so on) are in essence random. 2) The power of RV to create new useful complex information (CSI) is strictly dependent on the ratio of functional results to the whole serach space. The transition from a preexisistng condition to a new condition which exhibits new CSI (and which, therefore, could be in theory selected) is, as far as we can judge, a completely negligible possibility, due to the huge search space of even the simplest proteins. The probabilities become even more prohibitive for any multiple level of information, involving for instance multiple proteins in specific relation. 3) If the new level of functionality is irreducibly complex (IC), then it cannot be deconstructed in simpler functional units (with the same function), and should be achieved in its entirety before being selected. The alternative of "cooption" poses even more formidable improbabilities, having to realize a critical concurrence of independent functions in the huge space of all the possibilities. 4) Anyway, most mutaions seem to be neutral, and therefore cannot be selected. Neutral mutations can be "fixed" only by genetic drift, which, being a totally random process, adds nothing to the considerations of point 1 and 2. 5) Even if, overcoming the impossibilities of the first 4 points, some beneficial muation can emerge in an individual, its probabilities of being selected are extremely small, as well shown in the above article. It could be useful to remember that, when we speak of a beneficial mutation giving a 1% advantage of reproduction, we are assuming a lot. Most single mutations, even if potentially beneficial, would not be able to generate really a 1% reproductive advantage. A reproductive advantage, even small, is really a big thing, and usually would require a lot of new, coordinated CSI. The only exception (and, indeed, the only examples really known of natural selection) are scenarios of extreme selective pressure (like antibiotics) combined with the possibility that simple, essentially destructive mutations can protect from the pressure. In that case, and only in that case, many of the difficulties described in the above points do not apply. 6) All those mechanisms however, even if improbable or quite impossible, require anyway lots of reproducing beings and short inter-reproductive time. To try to apply them to complex, and rare, and slow animals, like mammals, is not only a fairy tale, but a really bad one.gpuccio
May 4, 2008
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Unless the relative fitness is large, this is the wrong way round. A new mutation is always going to suffer from drift, regardless of the population size. In a small population, however, it does not have to drift as far to get to fixation. So, the probability of fixing a new mutant increases as population size decreases. The smaller the population size, the larger the effect of drift, so the higher the probability that a new mutant becomes fixed. True. On the other hand, the smaller the population, the less individuals are available to "host" the new mutation. That is to say, if you've got a population of 10,000,000, you've got a much better chance of getting some lucky mutations than if you've got a population of 10. Seems like something of a catch 22. To get the mutations you have to have a large population, but having a large population prevents the new mutation from setting, and ultimately wipes it out unless there's a substantial selection advantage. The diluvial model, of course, accounts rather admirably for the population bottleneck necessary to set characteristics in isolated population. If 7 pairs of primal "cats" of substantial heterozygosity stepped off the boat, genetic drift would "set" them into a numnber of distinct species within a matter of a few generations.ungtss
May 4, 2008
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