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How we know evolution is true?

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BBC writer undermines own argument here:

First, when talking about evolution, author Chris Baraniuk chooses to defend precisely the theory of evolution that is most under fire just now, in serious intellectual terms: Darwinism

Darwin’s theory of evolution says that each new organism is subtly different from its parents, and these differences can sometimes help the offspring or impede it. As organisms compete for food and mates, those with the advantageous traits produce more offspring, while those with unhelpful traits may not produce any. So within a given population, advantageous traits become common and unhelpful ones disappear.

The problem is, in a constantly changing environment, “helpful” and “unhelpful” might not mean anything for long. So the theory amounts to “the survivors survive.”

That is a self-evident statement, not a mechanism.

Given enough time, these changes mount up and lead to the appearance of new species and new types of organism, one small change at a time. Step by step, worms became fish, fish came onto land and developed four legs, those four-legged animals grew hair and – eventually – some of them started walking around on two legs, called themselves “humans” and discovered evolution.

This can be hard to believe

It sure can. The rest of the article is about comparatively trivial changes that we are asked to believe demonstrate big changes (although human breeding can certainly make some dogs look weird. If nature teaches anything, it is that such oddities would not last long in the wilderness).

That has always been the problem with Darwinism. Darwinism seems like a fraudulent attempt to leave out the importance of the massive information inputs required for big changes. See Being as Communion.

By the way, why do Brits pay taxes for the BBC? Do they still need such government behemoths for anything, in the age of the Internet?

If Brits have money to burn, why aren’t they paying taxes for the support of cavalry horses as well?

Note: We face the same problem with the government broadcaster, the CBC, in Canada. There are signs around my own neighbourhood urging everyone to “support” the CBC, in this election year.

In the days when media behemoths were often useful, nobody put up a sign saying, “Support the weather forecast!” The Save the CBC campaign itself shows how much has changed.

Unnecessary institutions are often homes for out-of-date, never challenged, politically correct ideas that any mediocrity can make money off. They tend to retard, rather than advance, discussion by fronting out-of-date “truths” to the public.

I am sure glad evolution isn’t key current news. Some issues are, and are probably treated the same way.

Look, I (O’Leary for News) am not disputing evolution happens. Dam, I owe one of my editors another column on the subject. It’ll be on horizontal gene transfer, which is, I am glad to say, demonstrable.

See also: Evolution: The fossils speak, but hardly with one voice

and Evolution appears to converge on goals—but in Darwinian terms, is that possible?
Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
bornagain77: you are insane if you think the fossil record supports evolution. The vast majority of experts in the field think fossils support evolution. bornagain77: Your imaginary fossil sequence of ear evolution was not a ‘lucky guess’. Of course not. The prediction and the fossils are much too specific to be a mere guess. Not only do the fossils show the intermediate structure, but they are in the expected strata. bornagain77: Moreover, completely contrary to Darwinian thinking, it is found that antibiotic resistance is ancient, not recent as Darwinists had held That's just silly. Bacterial penicillinase was discovered shortly after penicillin was first isolated, and before the widespread use of penicillin in medicine. See Abraham & Chain, An enzyme from bacteria able to destroy penicillin, Reviews of infectious diseases 1940.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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Thank Goodness the NCSE Is Wrong: Fitness Costs Are Important to Evolutionary Microbiology Excerpt: it (an antibiotic resistant bacterium) reproduces slower than it did before it was changed. This effect is widely recognized, and is called the fitness cost of antibiotic resistance. It is the existence of these costs and other examples of the limits of evolution that call into question the neo-Darwinian story of macroevolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/thank_goodness_the_ncse_is_wro.html
For a broad outline of the 'Fitness test' required to be passed to show a gain of functional complexity/information over and above what is already present in life, please see the following video and articles:
Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaU4moNEBU Helping an Internet Debater Defend Intelligent Design - Casey Luskin - May 3, 2014 Excerpt: antibiotic resistance entails very small-scale degrees of biological change.,,, antibiotic resistant bacteria tend to "revert" to their prior forms after the antibacterial drug is removed. This is due to a "fitness cost," which suggests that mutations that allow antibiotic resistance are breaking down the normal, efficient operations of a bacterial cell, and are less "advantageous. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/helping_an_inte085171.html
This following study demonstrated that bacteria which had gained antibiotic resistance, which were purported to be solid evidence for Darwinism, are actually less fit than wild type bacteria when they were tested for robustness:
Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 Excerpt: Therefore, in order to simulate competition in the wild, bacteria must be grown on minimal media. Minimal media mimics better what bacteria experience in a natural environment over a period of time. This is the place where fitness can be accurately assessed. Given a rich media, they grow about the same. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore
Also of note; there appears to be a in-built (designed) mechanism, which kicks in during starvation, which allows wild type bacteria to more robustly resist antibiotics than 'well fed' bacteria;
Starving bacteria fight antibiotics harder? - November 2011 https://uncommondescent.com/news/starving-bacteria-fight-antibiotics-harder/
Moreover, completely contrary to Darwinian thinking, it is found that antibiotic resistance is ancient, not recent as Darwinists had held:
(Ancient) Cave bacteria resistant to antibiotics - April 2012 Excerpt: Antibiotic-resistant bacteria cut off from the outside world for more than four million years have been found in a deep cave. The discovery is surprising because drug resistance is widely believed to be the result of too much treatment.,,, “Our study shows that antibiotic resistance is hard-wired into bacteria. It could be billions of years old, but we have only been trying to understand it for the last 70 years,” said Dr Gerry Wright, from McMaster University in Canada, who has analysed the microbes. http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/cave-bacteria-resistant-to-antibiotics-1-2229183#
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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Lenski's E. coli evolving into E. coli does not support evolutionism's claims. How was it determined that gene duplication is a genetic accident. error or mistake?Virgil Cain
August 8, 2015
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Zach, you are insane if you think the fossil record supports evolution. Your imaginary fossil sequence of ear evolution was not a 'lucky guess'. It is yet another example of Darwinists trying to force the evidence into their preconceived conclusions! As DrJDD mentioned, this is not science! Moreover, what about the other more robust predictions of Darwinism, via Dr. Hunter, that have now been falsified? Do only imaginary predictions count and the other robust predictions that are now falsified not count in your rose colored Darwinian view of science?
Darwin's (failed) Predictions - Cornelius G. Hunter - 2015 https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/home
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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Again, the way to determine the overall pattern is to look at the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context for understanding the mechanisms of change.
Fish->tetrapods->fishapods. Not what was predicted by universal common descent yet what we see in the fossil record.Virgil Cain
August 8, 2015
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The fossil record supports branching descent.
That is your opinion.
The hypothesis, originally based on studies of embryonic development, predicted fossil evidence found only generations later.
None of that supports the claim that the mammalian middle ear evolved.Virgil Cain
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: The fossil record is a record of sudden appearance and stasis. The fossil record supports branching descent. bornagain77: Moreover, your ‘canonical example’ is as full of holes as the rest of your just so stories The hypothesis, originally based on studies of embryonic development, predicted fossil evidence found only generations later. Lucky guess?Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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as to:
the way to determine the overall pattern is to look at the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context for understanding the mechanisms of change. A canonical example is the evolution of mammalian auditory ossicles, complex and irreducible.
The fossil record is a record of sudden appearance and stasis. Moreover, your 'canonical example' is as full of holes as the rest of your just so stories are (think shotgun vs. a milk jug! :) )
Eardrum evolved independently in mammals, reptiles and birds - 04/22/2015 Excerpt: Researchers,, have determined that the eardrum evolved independently in mammals and diapsids—the taxonomic group that includes reptiles and birds.,, the work shows that the mammalian eardrum depends on lower jaw formation, while that of diapsids develops from the upper jaw. Significantly, the researchers used techniques borrowed from developmental biology to answer a question that has intrigued paleontologists for years.,, They noted that in mammals, the eardrum attaches to the tympanic ring—a bone derived from the lower jaw, but that in diapsids it attaches to the quadrate—an upper jawbone.,, While scientists still do not know how or why the primary jaw junction shifted upwards in mammals, the study shows that the middle ear developed after this shift and must therefore have occurred independently after mammal and diapsid lineages diverged from their common ancestor. (Of note: Diapsids ("two arches") are a group of amniote tetrapods) http://www.sciguru.org/newsitem/18946/eardrum-evolved-independently-mammals-reptiles-and-birds
Of related note:
"The earliest events leading from the first division of the egg cell to the blastula stage in amphibians, reptiles and mammals are illustrated in figure 5.4. Even to the untrained zoologist it is obvious that neither the blastula itself, nor the sequence of events that lead to its formation, is identical in any of the vertebrate classes shown. The differences become even more striking in the next major phase of in embryo formation - gastrulation. This involves a complex sequence of cell movements whereby the cells of the blastula rearrange themselves, eventually resulting in the transformation of the blastula into the intricate folded form of the early embryo, or gastrula, which consists of three basic germ cell layers: the ectoderm, which gives rise to the skin and the nervous system; the mesoderm, which gives rise to muscle and skeletal tissues; and the endoderm, which gives rise to the lining of the alimentary tract as well as to the liver and pancreas.,,, In some ways the egg cell, blastula, and gastrula stages in the different vertebrate classes are so dissimilar that, where it not for the close resemblance in the basic body plan of all adult vertebrates, it seems unlikely that they would have been classed as belonging to the same phylum. There is no question that, because of the great dissimilarity of the early stages of embryogenesis in the different vertebrate classes, organs and structures considered homologous in adult vertebrates cannot be traced back to homologous cells or regions in the earliest stages of embryogenesis. In other words, homologous structures are arrived at by different routes." Michael Denton - Evolution: A Theory in Crisis - pg 145-146
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: Stabilizing selection Positive selection. http://book.bionumbers.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/530-f2-LenskiMutationsAccumulation-1.pngZachriel
August 8, 2015
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zach:
Stabilizing selection, LOL Sometimes selection wants to stabilize. Sometimes it wants to be directional. Sometimes it wants to be disruptive. Stuff happens. It’s all about fitness. Fitness measurements, LOL “After 35 years and 600 generations, accelerated by artificial selection: We conclude that, at least for life history characters such as development time, unconditionally advantageous alleles rarely arise, are associated with small net fitness gains or cannot fix because selection coefficients change over time.” Burke, Dunham et al, “Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila,” Nature 467, 587–590 (30 September 2010); doi:10.1038/nature09352. Selection coefficients change over time? No problem – we’ll just assume that fitness criteria remains constant and when an organism reaches a ‘local optimum’ then stabilizing selection kicks in. The organism needs to develop legs, wings, eyes, digestive and reproductive systems first in order to reach ‘local optimum’, of course, but once it got there, all it needs is “stabilizing”. Need to develop some echo-location functions? Moving into the water and need fins, a change of diet and a blow-hole? Disruptive selection is what you’re looking for — and it will be there, as long as you’re not in a local optimum. In that case, you’re out of luck. SA UD blogger https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-makes-no-sense-on-this-molecular-clock-problem/#comment-569031
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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Dr JDD: It’s the turning that as an example to sat novel genes, proteins, pathways, organisms, must be able to arise like that because microevolution is true. Evolution is posited to occur largely through small changes on the generation scale. Dr JDD: It’s like taking the middle linear portion of a dose response curve and drawing a line out 100,000 units further claiming because it is linear in that small region the same is true throughout the whole response (when in fact it is sigmoidal and plateaus not long after the linear portion). Again, the way to determine the overall pattern is to look at the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context for understanding the mechanisms of change. A canonical example is the evolution of mammalian auditory ossicles, complex and irreducible.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: But what about the minor fact that you supposedly need environmental fluctuations for selection to occur? The initial fluctuation was introduction into the in vitro environment. Lenski's E coli continued to evolve higher fitness in an otherwise stable environment, albeit at a slower rate over time. http://book.bionumbers.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/530-f2-LenskiMutationsAccumulation-1.pngZachriel
August 8, 2015
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BA77 - of course it will be stated that observable evolution where a cost to fitness is observed is expected - because Darwinists cannot deny observed changes but they can deny anything that cannot be tested. So what should be the downfall becomes something they claim is exactly as expected. Remember Dawkins over a decade ago stating 99% junk is exactly what would be expected of evolution ? And then a few years later when function is found in what was once considered junk Dawkins again claims that's exactly what you would expect from evolution! My my, evolution expects every scenario! It is a many world's theory in itself! Zachriel - again with the ccr5 example: you seem to be unable to grasp that small changes that confer advantage in a given environmental and selective pressures are accepted as real by almost all posters here. People don't deny that. It's the turning that as an example to sat novel genes, proteins, pathways, organisms, must be able to arise like that because microevolution is true. Your examples do not address the question at hand and you don't see. To be able to grasp this. It's like taking the middle linear portion of a dose response curve and drawing a line out 100,000 units further claiming because it is linear in that small region the same is true throughout the whole response (when in fact it is sigmoidal and plateaus not long after the linear portion). It's unscientific.Dr JDD
August 8, 2015
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Zach, so loosing robustness to environmental fluctuation, in a 'cuddled' laboratory environment, is all you need to believe that all life on earth, in all its unfathomed complexity, is the result of unguided material processes? Okie dokie, I would call that being extremely gullible, but anyways, so long as the environment never fluctuates then your OK with that, right? But what about the minor fact that you supposedly need environmental fluctuations for selection to occur? Better go back to the drawing board and make up another just so story that is a little more robust than Lenski's 'cuddled' e-coli appear to be. :)bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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bornagain: Mutants of E. coli obtained after 20,000 generations at 37°C were less “fit” than the wild-type strain when cultivated at either 20°C or 42°C. But more fit when cultivated at 37°C.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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as to:
bornagain77: so are you now going to claim that Lenski’s e-coli are a different species of bacteria? Zach: Species are not well-defined across bacteria. Nonetheless, the strain has a feature considered distinguishing between E coli and other strains.
How convenient and foggy for you
bornagain77: Mutants of E. coli obtained after 20,000 generations at 37°C were less “fit” than the wild-type strain when cultivated at either 20°C or 42°C. Zach: Of course. That sort of specialization is exactly what is expected of an evolutionary process.
MMM, well, actually no. The fact that supposedly beneficial adaptations consistently come at a cost of preexisting functional information/complexity, is actually unexpected on Darwinian presuppositions and is a powerful scientific argument against Darwinism being true:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Biological Information - Loss-of-Function Mutations by Paul Giem 2015 - video (Behe - Loss of function mutations are far more likely to fix in a population than gain of function mutations) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzD3hhvepK8&index=20&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ Michael Behe - Observed (1 in 10^20) Limits of Evolution - video - Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote - "This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvA
bornagain77
August 8, 2015
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bornagain77: so are you now going to claim that Lenski’s e-coli are a different species of bacteria? Species are not well-defined across bacteria. Nonetheless, the strain has a feature considered distinguishing between E coli and other strains. bornagain77: Mutants of E. coli obtained after 20,000 generations at 37°C were less “fit” than the wild-type strain when cultivated at either 20°C or 42°C. Of course. That sort of specialization is exactly what is expected of an evolutionary process. Mung: How utterly teleological of them. It's not teleological. Bacteria largely compete on rapidity of replication. Box: Unless of course when they do not. Which is a case where rapidity of replication is not as important as fidelity in replication. Dr JDD: E coli being able to utilise citrate in oxic and anoxic conditions requires putting an existing single gene under a different promoter. It also takes potentiating mutations. Dr JDD: Additionally, E coli can survive already in both environments. Only if there is another food source. Dr JDD: Humans however could not take any existing single proteins, change promoter or even alter them in any way to be able to breathe under water. That doesn't make them opposites, as you claimed. Rather, they are analogous, but not identical. In humans, mutations in CCR5 receptors provide resistance to various plagues. This seemingly minor change can mean the difference between life and death, not just for you, but for your children, and for their descendants. Indeed, a small change in the shape of your nose or perhaps whether you have a stutter or not may mean the difference between getting the girl of your dreams (with those healthy childbearing hips), or not.Zachriel
August 8, 2015
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How are they opposites?
E coli being able to utilise citrate in oxic and anoxic conditions requires putting an existing single gene under a different promoter. Additionally, E coli can survive already in both environments. Humans however could not take any existing single proteins, change promoter or even alter them in any way to be able to breathe under water. Their lungs fir a start would inhibit this. Additionally humans cannot already live in both environments. So as is clear, these are polar opposites and a completely inappropriate equivocation. You are clever enough to realise this distinction. However as the other Darwinist who made this comparison, you are so lost in the religion of Darwinism that you cannot see the wood for the trees. Either that or you are purposely deceptive. And this was my original complaint about the BBC article which Seversky and now you have demonstrated you see nothing wrong with such deceptive reporting or claims.Dr JDD
August 8, 2015
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Zachriel: Bacteria evolved to have compact genomes.
Unless of course when they do not. Deinococcus Radiodurans — The World’s Toughest Bacterium
The microbe carries between four and ten copies of its genome, rather than the usual single copy, and the copies appear to be stacked on top of each other.
Box
August 7, 2015
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Zachriel: Bacteria evolved to have compact genomes. How utterly teleological of them.Mung
August 7, 2015
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Zachriel, so are you now going to claim that Lenski's e-coli are a different species of bacteria?
Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli - Michael Behe Excerpt: As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.),,, If Lenski’s results are about the best we've seen evolution do, then there's no reason to believe evolution could produce many of the complex biological features we see in the cell. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2008/06/multiple-mutations-needed-for-e-coli/
Goodness grief, if twiddling a few DNA sequences around is all it takes for you to declare a new species has been created then I guess I am a different species from my mom and dad:
Duality in the human genome - Nov. 28, 2014 Excerpt: The results show that most genes can occur in many different forms within a population: On average, about 250 different forms of each gene exist. The researchers found around four million different gene forms just in the 400 or so genomes they analysed. This figure is certain to increase as more human genomes are examined. More than 85 percent of all genes have no predominant form which occurs in more than half of all individuals. This enormous diversity means that over half of all genes in an individual, around 9,000 of 17,500, occur uniquely in that one person - and are therefore individual in the truest sense of the word. The gene, as we imagined it, exists only in exceptional cases. "We need to fundamentally rethink the view of genes that every schoolchild has learned since Gregor Mendel's time.,,, According to the researchers, mutations of genes are not randomly distributed between the parental chromosomes. They found that 60 percent of mutations affect the same chromosome set and 40 percent both sets. Scientists refer to these as cis and trans mutations, respectively. Evidently, an organism must have more cis mutations, where the second gene form remains intact. "It's amazing how precisely the 60:40 ratio is maintained. It occurs in the genome of every individual – almost like a magic formula," says Hoehe. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-11-duality-human-genome.html
Of related note: Lenski's e-coli, since all the mutations have been detrimental in the overall sense, would not last a day in the wild outside of their 'cuddled' lab environment:
Lenski's e-coli - Analysis of Genetic Entropy Excerpt: Mutants of E. coli obtained after 20,000 generations at 37°C were less “fit” than the wild-type strain when cultivated at either 20°C or 42°C. Other E. coli mutants obtained after 20,000 generations in medium where glucose was their sole catabolite tended to lose the ability to catabolize other carbohydrates. Such a reduction can be beneficially selected only as long as the organism remains in that constant environment. Ultimately, the genetic effect of these mutations is a loss of a function useful for one type of environment as a trade-off for adaptation to a different environment. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria
bornagain77
August 7, 2015
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Mung: Yes, the most primitive organisms are the most highly evolved. All organisms are 'highly evolved'. Bacteria evolved to have compact genomes. Mung: If only there was such a thing as HGT. Analysis of the evolution of Cit+ showed that gene transfer was not the origin. Mung: If only bacteria reproduced more quickly there would be even more variation. Optimization for rapid replication in bacteria tends to produce compact genomes; for instance, gene duplications tend to be lost unless they are under positive selection.Zachriel
August 7, 2015
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Dr JDD: The two are polar opposite. How are they opposites? bornagain77: But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another Actually, the inability to digest citrate in aerobic conditions is considered a distinguishing characteristic of E coli.Zachriel
August 7, 2015
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Zachriel: Actually, bacteria have a highly optimized genome, so there is much less available variation to play with than in eukaryotes. Yes, the most primitive organisms are the most highly evolved. If only there was such a thing as HGT. If only bacteria reproduced more quickly there would be even more variation.Mung
August 7, 2015
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As well Zach, perhaps you should run your 'just so stories' for why we should not expect to see Darwinian evolution in bacteria, but should expect it in multi-cellular organisms scaled over millions of years of equivalent 'evolution', by Alan H. Linton emeritus professor of bacteriology at University of Bristol. It seems that he holds the opposite view that you do:
Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282
bornagain77
August 7, 2015
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Zachriel as to: "We already addressed that question." Let me translate that for you Zach "I (the singular person of Zach) have found no real time empirical evidence for Darwinian evolution building up functional complexity no matter where I have looked" There Zach, all better! :)
Richard Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiments with E. coli and the Origin of New Biological Information – September 2011 Excerpt: The results of future work aside, so far, during the course of the longest, most open-ended, and most extensive laboratory investigation of bacterial evolution, a number of adaptive mutations have been identified that endow the bacterial strain with greater fitness compared to that of the ancestral strain in the particular growth medium. The goal of Lenski’s research was not to analyze adaptive mutations in terms of gain or loss of function, as is the focus here, but rather to address other longstanding evolutionary questions. Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT. (Michael J. Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’,” Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 85(4) (December, 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/richard_lenskis_long_term_evol051051.html Lenski's Long-Term Evolution Experiment: 25 Years and Counting - Michael Behe - November 21, 2013 Excerpt: Twenty-five years later the culture -- a cumulative total of trillions of cells -- has been going for an astounding 58,000 generations and counting. As the article points out, that's equivalent to a million years in the lineage of a large animal such as humans. Combined with an ability to track down the exact identities of bacterial mutations at the DNA level, that makes Lenski's project the best, most detailed source of information on evolutionary processes available anywhere,,, ,,,for proponents of intelligent design the bottom line is that the great majority of even beneficial mutations have turned out to be due to the breaking, degrading, or minor tweaking of pre-existing genes or regulatory regions (Behe 2010). There have been no mutations or series of mutations identified that appear to be on their way to constructing elegant new molecular machinery of the kind that fills every cell. For example, the genes making the bacterial flagellum are consistently turned off by a beneficial mutation (apparently it saves cells energy used in constructing flagella). The suite of genes used to make the sugar ribose is the uniform target of a destructive mutation, which somehow helps the bacterium grow more quickly in the laboratory. Degrading a host of other genes leads to beneficial effects, too.,,, - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/11/richard_lenskis079401.html “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have “invented” little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution "The immediate, most important implication is that complexes with more than two different binding sites-ones that require three or more proteins-are beyond the edge of evolution, past what is biologically reasonable to expect Darwinian evolution to have accomplished in all of life in all of the billion-year history of the world. The reasoning is straightforward. The odds of getting two independent things right are the multiple of the odds of getting each right by itself. So, other things being equal, the likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability for getting one: a double CCC, 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the world in the last 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." - Michael Behe - The Edge of Evolution - page 146 Don't Mess With ID by Paul Giem (Durrett and Schmidt paper)- video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JeYJ29-I7o Kenneth Miller Steps on Darwin's Achilles Heel - Michael Behe - January 17, 2015 Excerpt: Enter Achilles and his heel. It turns out that the odds are much better for atovaquone resistance because only one particular malaria mutation is required for resistance. The odds are astronomical for chloroquine because a minimum of two particular malaria mutations are required for resistance. Just one mutation won't do it. For Darwinism, that is the troublesome significance of Summers et al.: "The findings presented here reveal that the minimum requirement for (low) CQ transport activity ... is two mutations." Darwinism is hounded relentlessly by an unshakeable limitation: if it has to skip even a single tiny step -- that is, if an evolutionary pathway includes a deleterious or even neutral mutation -- then the probability of finding the pathway by random mutation decreases exponentially. If even a few more unselected mutations are needed, the likelihood rapidly fades away.,,, So what should we conclude from all this? Miller grants for purposes of discussion that the likelihood of developing a new protein binding site is 1 in 10^20. Now, suppose that, in order to acquire some new, useful property, not just one but two new protein-binding sites had to develop. In that case the odds would be the multiple of the two separate events -- about 1 in 10^40, which is somewhat more than the number of cells that have existed on earth in the history of life. That seems like a reasonable place to set the likely limit to Darwinism, to draw the edge of evolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/kenneth_miller_1092771.html “Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell–both ones we’ve discovered so far and ones we haven’t–at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It’s critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing–neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered–was of much use.” Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Michael Behe - Observed (1 in 10^20) Limits of Evolution - video - Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote - "This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvA
relevant Feynman quote:
The Scientific Method – Richard Feynman – video Quote: ‘If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwY
bornagain77
August 7, 2015
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Who is we? You and the host of demons? Eukaryotes have considerably much less available change to tolerate. Previously one commentator stated that saying that this is not something new because bacteria can already metabolise citrate is like saying if a human could breathe under water it isn't a novel function because they can already breathe in air. How short sighted can you be? What a ridiculous statement! The two are polar opposite. But I know any rational discussion with you will not be possible. I was making a point which stands: the BBC article presented a false view. It even states that bacteria cannot metabolise citrate. That is categorically false. And to prove my point further Seversky came along to demonstrate what I mean - this deception is passed on to the religious Darwinist zealouts and even they are deceived without questioning it because it was quite obviously not clearly explained correctly. So my point remains - once again we see Darwinist tripe dressed up as "science".Dr JDD
August 7, 2015
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Dr JDD: How do you know what has happened in 1m years to humans? We have fossils, and phylogenetic data. Dr JDD: Got some dna sequence to show that no new proteins evolved in that time frame? There's been substantial genetic evolution over the period. Dr JDD: If so, we should have at least seen 1-2 novel proteins arise in these experiments. We already addressed that question. 1. Bacteria have a highly optimized genome, so there is much less available variation to play with than in eukaryotes. 2. They started with clones. 3. The environment was highly restricted.Zachriel
August 7, 2015
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In fact, the research showed that it required potentiating mutations before the duplication event, then was followed by further, optimizing mutations.
Right, nothing new, just an existing gene put under the control of a different promoter.Virgil Cain
August 7, 2015
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If you want to unravel changes that have occurred over geological timescales, then start with the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context.
The evidence for common descent as in humans giving rise to humans, chimps giving rise to chimps, ie descendents looking very similar to their parents. That evidence? And given the proficiency of error correction, anyone who thinks that genetic errors can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to novel molecular machinery and body plans, is ignorant, insane or wicked.Virgil Cain
August 7, 2015
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