Evolution extinction News

Hypothetical mammal study suggests mammals slept through dinosaurs’ end, 67 mya?

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(One rather hopes so. 😉 )

Anyway, LiveScience reports:

A shrewlike creature in Madagascar that can hibernate for at least nine months of the year without waking may help reveal how mammals survived the cataclysm that ended the age of dinosaurs, researchers suggest.

The researchers created a virtual model, the “Shrëwdinger,” which they claim,

“We have all these placentals alive today, from elephants to shrews, from things that fly to things that swim,” Spaulding said. “What could the common ancestor of these things that are so different possibly look like?”

The scientists then worked with an artist to illustrate this ancestor. In addition to a furry tail, the researchers suggest the four-legged creature likely ate insects, weighed from 6 grams (about the weight of some shrews) up to 245 grams — less than half a pound — and was more adapted for general scampering than built for more specialized forms of movement, such as swinging from trees. Also, its cerebral cortex — the part of the brain linked to higher mental processes — was probably convoluted, folds linked with greater brain activity, the researchers found.

There is no question that the researchers have analyzed a great deal of data, combining genetic and fossil data.

But something feels not quite right about creating a hypothetical (virtual) ancestor. That’s what it is; everyone acknowledges that the Shrëwdinger was invented by the researchers and never actually existed. The 2013 article on the invention is nonetheless headlined, “Meet Your Mama: First Ancestor of All Placental Mammals Revealed.”

Of course, it is possible that, in these times, the distinction between science, art, and science fiction is becoming at best superfluous, and at worst burdensome to maintain.

Incidentally, they argue that the original ancestor of placental mammals developed about 200,000 to 400,000 years after the extinction, 36 million years later than the genetic data suggest. If so, fast work. Probabilities without  new information?

Note: Could the hibernators sleep that long? Despite that force? We are talking about a probable asteroid hit, not a string of bad summers.

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52 Replies to “Hypothetical mammal study suggests mammals slept through dinosaurs’ end, 67 mya?

  1. 1
    Edward says:

    So the 6 -> 245 gram shrëwdinger slept 9 months to survive.

    Great. I wonder how long the snakedinger, the newtdinger, the turtledinger, the snaildinger or the butterflydinger had to sleep.

    Oh, the deep and abiding faith it must take.

    Ed

  2. 2
    Enkidu says:

    Edward said:

    “So the 6 -> 245 gram shrëwdinger slept 9 months to survive.

    Great. I wonder how long the snakedinger, the newtdinger, the turtledinger, the snaildinger or the butterflydinger had to sleep.”

    Did you read the whole article? Actual living mammals were studied too. In Madagascar there lives the tenrec which does hibernate up to 9 months a year as a means of regulating their body temperature. I found this with a good explanation.

    Managing high temperatures: tenrecs

  3. 3
    News says:

    Enkidu at 2: Do you think that a nine month hibernation would be sufficient to survive a cataclysm that took out every single dinosaur family?

  4. 4
    Enkidu says:

    News at 3: Do you think that a nine month hibernation would be sufficient to survive a cataclysm that took out every single dinosaur family

    I have no idea how much hibernation contributed to mammals’ survival but it certainly wouldn’t have hurt. I do know the Chicxulub impactor of 65 million years ago was a real event that caused the extinction of a large percentage of life on Earth. I do know mammals managed to survive somehow. I do know extant mammals descended from those mammalian survivors.

    There are many details that may be lost forever in the fog of time but isn’t it neat that scientists are at least searching for them?

  5. 5
    Edward says:

    Enkidu, yes I did read the article. It was very amusing, hence the mirth evident in my post.

    On a more serious note, as News indicated, the magnatude of a disaster that would wipe out a whole class of animals earthwide would have long term repercussions. I don’t know if 9 month hibernation buys you much. I would help to have forknowledge so you could plan food, supplies, and shelter. I would also be nice to have an onhand supply of cedar logs and pitch.

    And as I also said, a deep and abiding faith.

    Further note: too bad the dino-dingers didn’t hibernate, living dinosaurs would be cool! 🙂

    HTH,
    Ed

  6. 6
    Enkidu says:

    Edward siad

    “Enkidu, yes I did read the article. It was very amusing, hence the mirth evident in my post.

    And as I also said, a deep and abiding faith.”

    Have you read the actual research? Can you point to any errors the researchers made? On what do you base your personal disbelief?

    “Further note: too bad the dino-dingers didn’t hibernate, living dinosaurs would be cool!

    The close relatives of dinosaurs did survive the Chicxulub mass extinction. They’re called birds.

  7. 7
    logically_speaking says:

    Why don’t these “scientists” instead of wasting everybody’s time and money on imaginary animals, actually do some worthwhile work. Something along the lines of stopping ebola from killing us perhaps.

  8. 8
    wd400 says:

    How to you guys think some mammals (and snails and turtles and alligators and insects and lizards and birds, which are dinosaurs by the way) survived the impact?

    You seem to be skeptical that hibernation would allow it, but it’s true that these lineage survived the impact, isn’t it? Or do you actually think all those lineages were wiped out created anew ~65 million years ago?

  9. 9
    Enkidu says:

    Logically_speaking can you please outline the work that Intelligent Design scientists are doing on investigating Ebola and trying to find a vaccine?

    Science has been tracking the continued evolution of the Ebola virus since at least 1976. The CDC uses such data to help predict future trends in the evolution of the virus that might make vaccines under development now ineffective. What does the ID paradigm predict and how is it useful in this instance?

  10. 10
    tjguy says:

    A shrewlike creature in Madagascar that can hibernate for at least nine months of the year without waking MAY help reveal how mammals survived the cataclysm that ended the age of dinosaurs, researchers suggest.

    (Assuming there was such a cataclysm.)But, on the other hand, it MIGHT NOT help explain the problem. Who really knows?!

    Why report on something that is an unknown? It might help, but then again it might not help. Why not wait until it is determined one way or another before spouting off with a news release!

    The words “might, perhaps, maybe, probably, is thought to have, could have, etc.” are common in many articles having to do with evolution. Why? – if we are dealing in science?

    These words do not belong. If it is a hypothesis, that is fine. State it as such and try and falsify it or verify it.

    Give them credit for at least being honest and admitting that they don’t know. They could just announce it as if it was fact, so at least that part is positive.

    This again just shows the limits of historical science that evolutionists, IDers, and creationists all face.

    Both sides face data that can be interpreted in various ways. Both sides face data that don’t fit the paradigm as well as other data. Both sides make attempts to explain why that may be, but neither side is able to validate their attempt at explaining the puzzle.

  11. 11
    Dr JDD says:

    Enkidu speaks like there has been no contribution to “science” (such as ebola, cancer, heart disease, medical advances, etc, etc) by those of the ID persuasion. What a fallacy.

    This is what the naturalists would have people believe – that unless you subscribe to naturalistic evolution you cannot be a true scientist that advances scientific knowledge.

  12. 12
    tjguy says:

    Enkidu @9

    Science has been tracking the continued evolution of the Ebola virus since at least 1976.

    Below is an article that discusses the “evolution” of ebola and why it really is not evolution.

    https://answersingenesis.org/biology/microbiology/is-ebola-epidemic-evolution-in-action/<code

    The CDC uses such data to help predict future trends in the evolution of the virus that might make vaccines under development now ineffective. What does the ID paradigm predict and how is it useful in this instance?

    I haven’t noticed any atheists in the news for going to help fight ebola and treat patients in Africa. (I have no idea if any atheist doctors or health workers went to volunteer or not. I’m not saying they didn’t. I just haven’t heard of any.)

    On the other hand, I have noticed in the news that a number of Christian doctors who were already serving the poor in Africa were involved in fighting the disease on the front lines. A number of them even contracted the disease. Fortunately they survived!

    How active are atheists in helping to fight the disease and in caring for those who contracted the disease? If you have any stories, I’d love to hear them.

  13. 13
    Enkidu says:

    Dr JDD said:

    Enkidu speaks like there has been no contribution to “science” (such as ebola, cancer, heart disease, medical advances, etc, etc) by those of the ID persuasion. What a fallacy.

    Please Dr JDD, read what I wrote. I asked what advances have been made in Ebola research by ID scientists using the ID paradigm.

    Too many times I see religious folks claims Young Earth Creationism is true simply because Famous Scientist XYZ was a YEC. But no scientists anywhere ever made an advancement using the YEC paradigm.

    If ID wishes to distance itself from Biblical Creationism it shouldn’t be using Biblical Creationist arguments.

  14. 14
    Dr JDD says:

    No it is a fallacy by you because once again you fail to understand how even YEC’s accept the evolution of an organism within the boundaries of their own species.

    This is nothing to do with Darwinists – it is simple genetics that all camps accept (but you try to make out as though this is from the achievements of Darwinism and make out those with a differing view have contributed nothing).

  15. 15
    Enkidu says:

    Dr. JDD said:

    “No it is a fallacy by you because once again you fail to understand how even YEC’s accept the evolution of an organism within the boundaries of their own species.

    That still doesn’t answer my question about ID’s potential use but it is interesting nonetheless. I wasn’t aware science had identified any such boundaries in species. Can you please describe them and cite the scientific research where the boundaries were identified and measured? I do hope to not get another YEC argument like “we’ve never seen it happen”.

    Do you think Ebola was intelligently designed? When and by who?

  16. 16
    Enkidu says:

    For tjguy at 12:

    1. Your link is broken

    2. AnswersInGenesis is not a credible scientific source, to put it mildly.

    3. My question was about using the ID paradigm and you started in about atheists and Christians. What does that have to do with the topic?

  17. 17
    News says:

    Enkidu at 4 and wd400 at 8: Many factors doubtless contributed.

    But 9 months is clearly not enough hibernation time if current thinking about the scope of the cataclysm is accurate. Something more like the 17 year locust might be the range we are looking for. Interesting Madagascar creature, though.

    Don’t know how we got started talking about ebola. Societal anxiety perhaps.

  18. 18
    Enkidu says:

    News at 17 “But 9 months is clearly not enough hibernation time if current thinking about the scope of the cataclysm is accurate. Something more like the 17 year locust might be the range we are looking for. Interesting Madagascar creature, though

    Pretty sure the hypothesis isn’t that the animal hibernated all the way through the disaster and the worst effects which lasted for hundreds if not thousands of years. A more likely scenario is the “nuclear winter” where average global temperatures plummet due to all the dust/smoke in the atmosphere. Animals may have had to cope with only a few short months a year of barely warm enough temperatures and the rest of the year being frigid. A species with the ability to hibernate through the worst of the year and store up on food in the few warmer months could make it through until the climate eventually returned to normal.

  19. 19
    logically_speaking says:

    Enkidu,

    “Logically_speaking can you please outline the work that Intelligent Design scientists are doing on investigating Ebola and trying to find a vaccine”?

    Why should I? What’s any of that got to do with the scientists I was talking about? Wouldn’t it be better if all scientists of all persuasions, no matter what they believe figure out how to kill this thing?

    Your post just seems to be a knee jerk polarity response.

    If you really want to find the answer to your question, I think someone like Michael Behe would be a good person to ask.

    “Science has been tracking the continued evolution of the Ebola virus since at least 1976. The CDC uses such data to help predict future trends in the evolution of the virus that might make vaccines under development now ineffective. What does the ID paradigm predict and how is it useful in this instance”?

    Well obviously if ebola has not been beaten for nealy 40 years, perhaps we do need a new paradigm.

    If it were accepted that some things in biology are intelligently designed, we could use our knowledge of design processes, design constraints, information and engineering to determine the internal structure and functions and processes of the Ebola virus.

    In other words, we would find the switches that turn it off.

  20. 20
    logically_speaking says:

    News,

    “Don’t know how we got started talking about ebola. Societal anxiety perhaps”.

    My fault, sorry.

  21. 21
    logically_speaking says:

    I just think it’s more productive to talk about real things rather than imaginary animals and their imaginary stories of surviving imaginary disasters.

  22. 22
    Enkidu says:

    logically_speaking said:

    “If it were accepted that some things in biology are intelligently designed, we could use our knowledge of design processes, design constraints, information and engineering to determine the internal structure and functions and processes of the Ebola virus

    What do we know about the Intelligent Designer’s design processes, design constraints, information, and engineering? I haven’t seen any mention of that in the scientific literature.

    If you really want to find the answer to your question, I think someone like Michael Behe would be a good person to ask.

    Ah, Michael Behe. He’s the guy that claims the Intelligent Designer has been visiting Earth in the last few decades and giving malaria parasites a resistance to our drugs. Since the Designer obviously wants more humans to die why do you suppose it would be any different with Ebola?

  23. 23
    Enkidu says:

    logically_speaking said

    I just think it’s more productive to talk about real things rather than imaginary animals and their imaginary stories of surviving imaginary disasters

    The common ancestor of extant mammals, a species that survived the Chicxulub impact, was a real animal. The computer generated Shrëwdinger was a serious scientific exercise to reconstruct what it looked like by extrapolating back from data on extant mammals.

    (Aside: Shrëwdinger is a great name BTW. Pays homage to physicist Erwin Schrödinger of “Schrödinger’s Cat” fame.)

    If you don’t think the Chicxulub impact was real how do you explain the 180km diameter crater in Chicxulub and the global covering KT boundary iridium layer? Those are real things I assure you.

  24. 24
    wallstreeter43 says:

    6
    EnkiduNovember 1, 2014 at 10:34 am

    The close relatives of dinosaurs did survive the Chicxulub mass extinction. They’re called birds.””

    Dude are u still trying to use that old argument that birds are descendants of dinosaurs . Wow, don’t tell me ur still using archaeopteryx . I used the same arguments when I was an evolutionist . I’m glad I now have a brain if my own to actually make up my own mind .

    Which is why I left evolution after being an evolutionist for 41 Years.
    Posts like this show me why it was so easy to leave evolution

  25. 25
    anthropic says:

    Enkidu 22

    “Ah, Michael Behe. He’s the guy that claims the Intelligent Designer has been visiting Earth in the last few decades and giving malaria parasites a resistance to our drugs.”

    I don’t recall Behe saying that. Do you have a source, or are you just making stuff up?

  26. 26
    logically_speaking says:

    Enkidu,

    “What do we know about the Intelligent Designer’s design processes, design constraints, information, and engineering? I haven’t seen any mention of that in the scientific literature”.

    So have you not heard of the scientific endeavors of biomimetics, that attempt to copy the designs in nature for our own benefit?

    “Ah, Michael Behe. He’s the guy that claims the Intelligent Designer has been visiting Earth in the last few decades and giving malaria parasites a resistance to our drugs. Since the Designer obviously wants more humans to die why do you suppose it would be any different with Ebola”?

    Is this an ad hominem attack?? Why would you stoop so low??

    “The common ancestor of extant mammals, a species that survived the Chicxulub impact, was a real animal”.

    How do you know it was a real animal?

    “The computer generated Shrëwdinger was a serious scientific exercise to reconstruct what it looked like by extrapolating back from data on extant mammals”.

    So how do we know it was a real animal? Extrapolation is full of assumptions and guess work.

    “If you don’t think the Chicxulub impact was real how do you explain the 180km diameter crater in Chicxulub and the global covering KT boundary iridium layer? Those are real things I assure you”.

    The Chicxulub impact may be real, but saying what animals became extinct or what animals survived at this impact is speculation, and claiming that it caused worldwide extinctions is even more so.

  27. 27
    Joe says:

    Enkidu:

    I do know the Chicxulub impactor of 65 million years ago was a real event that caused the extinction of a large percentage of life on Earth.

    If that were true then we would expect to see many organisms in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet we don’t. Why?

    What advances have ever been made using the blind watchmaker paradigm?

  28. 28
    Joe says:

    Enkidu:

    Science has been tracking the continued evolution of the Ebola virus since at least 1976.

    And how has the blind watchmaker paradigm helped?

  29. 29
    Enkidu says:

    wallstreeter43 at 24 said
    Dude are u still trying to use that old argument that birds are descendants of dinosaurs . Wow, don’t tell me ur still using archaeopteryx . I used the same arguments when I was an evolutionist . I’m glad I now have a brain if my own to actually make up my own mind

    That extant birds are closely related to theropod dinosaurs is considered a scientifically established fact. The main point of contention remaining is when in the theropod lineage the branching of the aves occurred. There’s plenty of scientific literature on the topic.

  30. 30
    Enkidu says:

    Joe at 27 said

    “If that were true then we would expect to see many organisms in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet we don’t. Why?”

    Are you seriously arguing that the Chicxulub impact event never occurred? Why don’t you spend some time and Google up some of the thousands of pages detailing the evidence for it.

  31. 31
    Enkidu says:

    logically_speaking at 25 said:

    So have you not heard of the scientific endeavors of biomimetics, that attempt to copy the designs in nature for our own benefit?

    We have no evidence of any Intelligent Designer creating those things.

    Is this an ad hominem attack?? Why would you stoop so low??

    One of the main arguments in Behe’s book Edge of Evolution is that the Designer was required to give drug-resistance to malaria, that it was too difficult for evolution to do. Look it up.

    How do you know it was a real animal?

    So how do we know it was a real animal? Extrapolation is full of assumptions and guess work.

    Because we know mammals existed before Chicxulub and we know mammals existed after. That means they existed right through the event and its immediate aftermath.

    The Chicxulub impact may be real, but saying what animals became extinct or what animals survived at this impact is speculation, and claiming that it caused worldwide extinctions is even more so

    We know what species existed before and after the impact event because of the fossil record. There is lots of evidence tying the impact event to the major mass extinction that immediately followed. The precise mechanisms of the extinction aren’t fully characterized but we know for 100% fact an extinction occurred.

  32. 32
    Joe says:

    “If that were true then we would expect to see many organisms in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet we don’t. Why?”

    Enkidu:

    Are you seriously arguing that the Chicxulub impact event never occurred?

    Are you really that much of a coward that you refuse to answer my question and try to deflect from the fact that you cannot?

    You said that the impact caused an extinction and the extinction event took some time. Long enough to where the mammals couldn’t have hibernated through it.

    That would mean there should be many fossils in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet they are not there. Why?

  33. 33
    Joe says:

    Enkidu:

    That extant birds are closely related to theropod dinosaurs is considered a scientifically established fact.

    It can’t be scientifically tested. So perhaps some people think it’s a fact but that doesn’t make it so.

  34. 34
    Enkidu says:

    Joe

    It can’t be scientifically tested.

    The hypothesis has already been tested and confirmed. Again there are many recent scientific papers with the evidence

    Gradual Assembly of Avian Body Plan Culminated in Rapid Rates of Evolution across the Dinosaur-Bird Transition

    So perhaps some people think it’s a fact but that doesn’t make it so.

    It makes it so to people whose opinions on the subject matter.

  35. 35
    Enkidu says:

    Joe

    Are you really that much of a coward that you refuse to answer my question and try to deflect from the fact that you cannot

    It’s impossible to have a productive discussion with someone whose only defense is to toss insults and make the ridiculous claim that such a well documented historical event never happened. Your angry outputs can be safely ignored.

  36. 36
    Mapou says:

    Enkidu:

    It makes it so to people whose opinions on the subject matter.

    The insufferable elitism and pomposity of Darwinists never cease to amaze me. Talk about superiority complex.

  37. 37
    logically_speaking says:

    Enkidu,

    “We have no evidence of any Intelligent Designer creating those things”.

    Why are you attempting to change the goalposts, you originally asked, “What do we know about the Intelligent Designer’s design processes…..”.

    You question implies the acceptance of the designer. I answered you and because you have no other response you have to back track. Those games will not work on me.

    “One of the main arguments in Behe’s book Edge of Evolution is that the Designer was required to give drug-resistance to malaria, that it was too difficult for evolution to do. Look it up”.

    Another back track? But thats ok.

    I have the book, would you be so kind as to provide a quote from it so I may evaluate it (as I am unsure your statement is true). But again the point was, I only suggested that he was more likely to answer your question than I.

    “Because we know mammals existed before Chicxulub and we know mammals existed after. That means they existed right through the event and its immediate aftermath”.

    Yes, we know real mammals exist and/or existed, my question was regarding how do we know the computer generated Shrëwdinger imaginary animal is real?

    “We know what species existed before and after the impact event because of the fossil record. There is lots of evidence tying the impact event to the major mass extinction that immediately followed. The precise mechanisms of the extinction aren’t fully characterized but we know for 100% fact an extinction occurred”.

    Given the previous (in my opinion dubious statements), could you provide some details or links to the evidence, I am genuinely interested. Unfortunately none of this really matters in the main discussion about imaginary ancestors.

  38. 38
    Astroman says:

    “The insufferable elitism and pomposity of Darwinists never cease to amaze me. Talk about superiority complex.”

    Look who’s talking, mapou. You God botherers pompously demand that your lazy, elitist, religious beliefs and opinions not only be taken seriously, but that they replace all of the hard won discoveries, methods, evidence, knowledge, technological advances, productive research avenues, beneficial products and services, explanations, etc., of and/or made available by science, except of course for the parts that you want to keep around for your enjoyment, comfort and convenience, weaponry, greed, entertainment, safety, health, and Dominionist agenda.

  39. 39
    Silver Asiatic says:

    This goes back a few years

    Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....092055.htm

    Researchers at Oregon State University have made a fundamental new discovery about how birds breathe and have a lung capacity that allows for flight – and the finding means it’s unlikely that birds descended from any known theropod dinosaurs.
    The implication, the researchers said, is that birds almost certainly did not descend from theropod dinosaurs, such as tyrannosaurus or allosaurus. The findings add to a growing body of evidence in the past two decades that challenge some of the most widely-held beliefs about animal evolution.
    “Frankly, there’s a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions,” Ruben said. In some museum displays, he said, the birds-descended-from-dinosaurs evolutionary theory has been portrayed as a largely accepted fact, with an asterisk pointing out in small type that “some scientists disagree.”

  40. 40
    Enkidu says:

    Silver Asiatic

    This goes back a few years

    Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links

    Sorry but the ideas put forth in that older paper were overturned by further discoveries made after the paper was published. There’s really no longer any doubt in the paleontology community of the bird-theropod dino connection. The only major unknown is when aves branched off the main theropod line. See the 2014 paper I linked to above.

  41. 41
    Mapou says:

    Astroman @38, in my view, you’re all a bunch of pompous asses without a pot to piss in. Dirt made you. You are dirt worshipers, no better than the fundamentalists that you despise. You’re just like them. This is why you are here. 😀

  42. 42
    Enkidu says:

    Mapou

    Astroman @38, in my view, you’re all a bunch of pompous asses without a pot to piss in. Dirt made you. You are dirt worshipers, no better than the fundamentalists that you despise. You’re just like them. This is why you are here

    Thank you for that informed and insightful commentary on the OP topic. We’re all more knowledgeable on Paleogene mammals because of it.

  43. 43
    Mapou says:

    Enkidu @42, any time, amigo.

  44. 44
    Joe says:

    And Enkidu chokes:

    It’s impossible to have a productive discussion with someone whose only defense is to toss insults and make the ridiculous claim that such a well documented historical event never happened.

    Typical cowardly response. I do NOT deny the event happened. There isn’t anything in what I posted that you could infer that slop from. Obviously you have serious issues.

    Grow up.

  45. 45
    Joe says:

    Enkidu:

    The hypothesis has already been tested and confirmed. Again there are many recent scientific papers with the evidence

    What evos accept as science is mind-boggling. How many mutations dod it take? What genes were involved? How many generations?

    Your science doesn’t have any answers. Heck your science doesn’t even know what makes a bird a bird nor a dinosaur a dinosaur.

  46. 46
    Joe says:

    Enkidu said that the impact caused an extinction and the extinction event took some time. Long enough to where the mammals couldn’t have hibernated through it.

    That would mean there should be many fossils in and just above the K-T boundary. Yet they are not there. Why?

  47. 47
    Astroman says:

    Joe, please explain your version of what did or didn’t happen
    in regard to the Chicxulub asteroid impact, including but not limited to when it occurred, the local and global effects, the time frames of all effects, the extinction of many life forms, the surviving life forms, the alleged built in responses to environmental cues, the time frames and other details of the subsequent radiation of new species, and more.

  48. 48
    Astroman says:

    Joe, to be clear, by “boundary”, do you mean the Iridium layer and only the Iridium layer? By “fossils”, do you mean giant dinosaur fossils, itty bitty foraminifera fossils, bear fossils, duck fossils, camel fossils, tick fossils, octopus fossils, human fossils, Shrewdinger fossils, plant fossils, whale fossils, ancient alien fossils, Bigfoot fossils, or what? How many do you mean by “many”?

  49. 49
    wd400 says:

    Silver Asiatic,

    That’s another paper by John Rueben who has made a career out of “Birds aren’t dinosaurs because x” papers, none of them being very good. Here’s a blog post from the time of the paper, which puts the silly press release in some context.

  50. 50
    Silver Asiatic says:

    wd400 – I’m not qualified to evaluate the conflicting claims. In one case, we have a peer-reviewed paper in Journal of Morphology — Cardio-pulmonary anatomy in theropod dinosaurs: Implications from extant archosaurs. And on the other hand there a blog post disputing the findings and calling into question the integrity of the researchers and stating that the peer-reviewed paper contains factual errors.

    I don’t know how a scientist “makes a career” out of publishing false claims in peer-reviewed journals and why one evolutionary scientist will attack two others as having a “hidden agenda”.

    But I will say that it doesn’t make either side sound very convincing and it’s yet another example of the contradictions that one can find within the evolutionary community itself.

    For myself, it’s all there, very plain to see. I also find that there are attempts to cover up these sorts of conflicts, in this case, attacking the motives of evolutionary scientists who offer conflicting views.

    I find it odd, but not surprising, that the blog post you cited closes with a last sentence reading:

    “Of course, creationists just love what Quick and Ruben have been saying.”

    Strange. It seems like that’s the biggest concern the author really has. Does that kind of fear have an impact on the objectivity of the response?

    Again, I’ve read a lot of this sort of thing so I’ve drawn my own conclusions but I try to be open to other points of view.

    And, in any case – thanks for this follow up and for offering more information on the topic.

  51. 51
    Mung says:

    Sheesh. I can’t even sleep through a single night!

  52. 52
    Joe says:

    wd400- there isn’t any way to test the claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs, let alone evolved by unguided evolution.

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