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Information theory is bad news for Darwin: Evolutionary informatics takes off

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Return to product information The book Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics continues to make waves. The Lab writes to say:

A lot continues to happen surrounding the release of “Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics” by Robert J. Marks, William A. Dembski and Winston Ewert:

Here’s a quick summary of media.

– AI means the topic is Artificial Intelligence hype – EV deals with Darwinian Evolution

(AI) Janet Mefford Today – A.I. Hype & Limitations with guest Robert J. Marks (American Family Radio)

(AI) “Point of View” with Kerby Anderson. Robert J. Marks talks about AI hype

(AI) “The Remnant Road” Raging Against the Machines with guest Robert J. Marks

(AI) “Are Super Computers on the Verge of Becoming Our Overlords?’ Terry Lowry interviews Robert J. Marks

(AI) Bob’s interview on “The Going Home Show with Mark Cope” Newstalk 102.3 KXYL

(EV) Bob’s interview with Julian Charles’s on “The Mind Renewed” about “Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics”

(EV) Bob’s essay at EN “Top Ten Questions and Objections to Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics'”

(EV) Winston Ewert’s “ID the Future” podcast #1 on “Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics” titled “Author of New Book Tells Why Evolution Simulations … Don’t”

(EV) Winston’s “ID the Future” podcast #2 on “Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics” titled “Why Digital Cambrian Explosions Fizzle … Or Fake It” …

Granville’s EN “Intelligent Design Goes International — A Report from Istanbul

(EV) Bob’s essay in CNS News “Sorry Darwin: New Video Game Proves Adaptation Is Ubiquitous – Not Evolution”

(EV) Bob’s editorial in the Dallas Morning News

(EV) Bob’s interview on the Bob Phillips Show in Austin.

Comments
CR: By dissolving justificationism itself, the critical rationalist regards knowledge and rationality, reason and science, as neither foundational nor infallible, ...
Some people unwittingly saw off the branch they are sitting on... From what position does the so-called "critical rationalist" think he is operating? Put another way, those who claim that knowledge and rationality, reason and science are neither foundational nor infallible are positing a closed circle in which no beliefs can be said to be veracious or rationally founded. Yet at the same time, they are arrogating to themselves a position outside of this circle by which they can judge the knowledge/beliefs of others, a move they deny to their opponents.
CR: ... but nevertheless does not think we must therefore all be relativists. Knowledge and truth still exist, just not in the way we though.
This view on rationality is, by the 'critical rationalist's' own admission, neither foundational nor infallible. IOWs the whole thing dissolves on self-reference.Origenes
July 21, 2017
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CR,
Origenes: Again, one must be free to connect a conclusion to its grounds. One must be in conscious control of that process.
To be clear, this must be the case in order to be rational.
CR: Except we’re not always consciously in control of that process. If we were, we would be paralyzed. We are continually criticizing conjectures at a subconscious level.
This is fine as long as you are talking about automated behavior — behavior that is "programmed" by and stems from consciousness.
CR: To use an example, regardless of how we try to be clear in our writing and speech, it is always possible to be misinterpreted.
How is the interpretation of others relevant?
CR: Yet, a great majority of cases, we do end up with what the intended message. This is because we subconsciously criticize possible meanings based on context, background knowledge, etc. and discard them until one is left.
I assume you that you are talking about automated processes (language, logic) that originated from consciousness. That's not a problem at all.
If we are determined to believe a particular truth, we would obviously have a true belief. But would we know it? My belief is true, but how do I know it is true? Well, because it was produced by the appropriate processes, processes that are allegedly deterministic in nature. But how do I know that? My belief about those processes is another belief that was also produced by those processes. What if these processes determine me to hold false beliefs? Then they would determine me to falsely conclude that they determine me to hold true beliefs.3 If the processes that are in play are reliable, if they tend to produce true beliefs, then well and good. But we could not know that these processes were actually reliable without examining their reliability. According to determinism, however, the only methods by which we could examine such processes are products of these processes themselves. To appeal to the reliability of these processes in arguing for their reliability is an invalid procedure. This may be able to show that the processes in question are not reliable (by showing that they lead to an incoherent system, for example), but to appeal to these processes in order to verify the reliability of these processes is simply, and blatantly, to beg the question. So it seems that we need something more. At first glance, the problem with determinism arises when the determining forces are 1) other than rational and 2) external to the individual (remember, this latter issue was why both Aristotle and Kant objected to determinism). In other words, there must be a reason for a belief and it must be my reason. [Jim Slagle]
Origenes
July 21, 2017
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Except we’re not always consciously in control of that process. If we were, we would be paralyzed. We are continually criticizing conjectures at a subconscious level. To use an example, regardless of how we try to be clear in our writing and speech, it is always possible to be misinterpreted. Yet, a great majority of cases, we do end up with what the intended message. This is because we subconsciously criticize possible meanings based on context, background knowledge, etc. and discard them until one is left. The same can be said about all experience, not just that of reading and listening. For example, it’s possible to reach a false conclusion if enough people with enough resources colluded to make it appear that someone committed a crime. Despite being possible, we discard that possibility most of the time because we lack a good explantion for why all those people would expend all those resources to do just that. Experience cannot be a source of truth. We guess, by varying existing knowledge, then test those guesses and discard errors we find. God, if he exists, could have created the universe we observe 30 seconds ago, complete with the appearance of age, false memories, which would include the false memory of having “authored” the earlier part of this comment. From this essay on Critical Rationalism.
Relativism, Dogmatism and Critical Preference In the light of Bartley's ideas we can discern a number of possible attitudes towards positions, notably those of relativism, dogmatism (called “fideism” in the scholarly literature) and critical preference (or in Bartley's unfortunately clumsy language, “pancritical rationalism”.) Relativists tend to be disappointed dogmatists who realise that positive confirmation cannot be achieved. From this correct premise they proceed to the false conclusion that all positions are pretty much the same and none can really claim to be better than any other. There is no such thing as the truth, no way to get nearer to the truth and there is no such thing as a rational position. Fideists are people who believe that knowledge is based on an act of faith. Consequently they embrace whatever they want to regard as the truth. If they stop to think about it they may accept that there is no logical way to establish a positive justification for their beliefs or any others, so they insist that we make our choice regardless of reason: ”Here I stand!”. Most forms of rationalism up to date have, at rock bottom, shared this attitude with the irrationalists and other fundamentalists because they share the same 'true belief' structure of thought. According to the stance of critical preference no position can be positively justified but it is quite likely that one, (or some) will turn out to be better than others are in the light of critical discussion and tests. This type of rationality holds all its positions and propositions open to criticism and a standard objection to this stance is that it is empty; just holding our positions open to criticism provides no guidance as to what position we should adopt in any particular situation. This criticism misses its mark for two reasons. First, the stance of critical preference is not a position, it is a metacontext and as such it is not directed at solving the kind of problems that are solved by adopting a position on some issue or other. It is concerned with the way that such positions are adopted, criticised, defended and relinquished. Second, Bartley does provide guidance on adopting positions; we may adopt the position that to this moment has stood up to criticism most effectively. Of course this is no help for dogmatists who seek stronger reasons for belief, but that is a problem for them, not for exponents of critical preference.
Note, I am not suggesting there is no knowledge, but suggesting it does not take the form you think it does. From the Wikipedia entry on Critical Rationalism.
William Warren Bartley compared critical rationalism to the very general philosophical approach to knowledge which he called "justificationism". Most justificationists do not know that they are justificationists. Justificationism is what Popper called a "subjectivist" view of truth, in which the question of whether some statement is true, is confused with the question of whether it can be justified (established, proven, verified, warranted, made well-founded, made reliable, grounded, supported, legitimated, based on evidence) in some way. According to Bartley, some justificationists are positive about this mistake. They are naïve rationalists, and thinking that their knowledge can indeed be founded, in principle, it may be deemed certain to some degree, and rational. Other justificationists are negative about these mistakes. They are epistemological relativists, and think (rightly, according to the critical rationalist) that you cannot find knowledge, that there is no source of epistemological absolutism. But they conclude (wrongly, according to the critical rationalist) that there is therefore no rationality, and no objective distinction to be made between the true and the false. By dissolving justificationism itself, the critical rationalist regards knowledge and rationality, reason and science, as neither foundational nor infallible, but nevertheless does not think we must therefore all be relativists. Knowledge and truth still exist, just not in the way we though
critical rationalist
July 16, 2017
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Critical rationalist @33
CR: We do not choose which information will play this role anymore than we can choose for some specific information on a thumb drive to result in the transformations of matter necessary to cure cancer.
You make a valid point, indeed, we do not really choose the truth. I, by my choice, cannot make my belief true. Quite the opposite: I have to allow the truth to determine my belief in order for the belief to be true. However, the problem, of course, is that some claims with which we are presented are true and some are false, so I must be able to weigh the evidence for and against any given proposition—I cannot be determined by an external cause to accept a false conclusion while still maintaining that my reasoning is veracious. Again, one must be free to connect a conclusion to its grounds. One must be in conscious control of that process.Origenes
July 14, 2017
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Origines, yes, reason involves understanding, awareness of duty to truth, soundness and right, determination and discipline under that guidance and more. KFkairosfocus
July 14, 2017
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// correcting a mistake in #72:
Naturalism fails to ground rationality because reasoning cannot be something that happens to consciousness and be rational; it must be a conscious process.
Origenes
July 14, 2017
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Kairosfocus @65
Kairosfocus: CR, neither you nor any other person has reduced mindedness to the electro-mechanical, determined, programmed and/or stochastic behaviour of any computational substrate.
Well said. Some further thoughts: Naturalism fails to ground rationality because reasoning cannot be something that happens to conscious and be rational; it must be a conscious process. One must be free to connect a conclusion to its grounds. One must be in conscious control of that process. If some external force compels one to make this connection, then one cannot know that one's belief p is properly connected to its grounds and rationality breaks down.Origenes
July 13, 2017
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Notice that UB hasn't even acknowledge a failure to address what's physical necessary to copy information, which is a "universal observation'. Nor does he address the interoperability property, which is yet another "universal observation", which has consequences for ID as illustrated above. And we've had quantum algorithms for at least a decade now, which is yet another "universal observation" his supposed theory of information doesn't address. Again, this is why I kept asking UB if what he was presenting was a theory of information. What he's described it as what is necessary for "recorded information", as if that is some special kind of information. Is that what you're suggesting? After all, you're presenting a theory of information, correct? Furthermore...
UB: On the one hand, you are setting up to argue that the capacity to establish a general purpose digital language isn’t really a correlate of intelligence (good luck on that one), and on the other hand you want to know if I believe designers have brains!!
We can simply swap intelligence and language with brains an intelligence. The capacity of intelligence isn't a correlation of complex material nervous systems. (Good luck with that?) Certainly, if one is an undeniable correlation, then why isn't the other? Apparently, none of this things are what UB considered "interesting", so he chooses to ignore it.critical rationalist
July 13, 2017
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@UB
I’ll follow up on this shortly in additional comments.
See this comment. Does it only "count" if I post in again in a comment in this thread?critical rationalist
July 12, 2017
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A stiff upper lip, eh, critical rationalist? If there was ever a time for you to lay into it and really relate your theory to the actual observations of the gene system, that was the time to do it. But you didn't. Good luck to ya.Upright BiPed
July 12, 2017
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@Origenes
Evolution, as a physical process has nothing to do with semantics, so the usage of the “knowledge” is entirely wrong.
This is the crux of my disagreement with UB, who wants to paint everything in an semantic light, including the entirety of knowledge. Yes, organisms are the result of knowledge, but not knowledge in the limited sense that is defined as having a knowledge subject. Specifically, you're assuming there is only one kind of knowledge - the kind that only people can create. However, I am suggesting there are actually two kinds: non-explanatory and explanatory. Both evolution and people can create the former, but only people can the latter. The latter occurs when people conjecture explanatory theories about how the world works, as a means to solve a specific problem, then test those theories. The result is explanatory knowledge. Evolution doesn't conceive of anything, let alone problems or explanatory theories. So, the result is merely useful rules of thumb with limited reach. To elaborate, imagine I’ve been shipwrecked on a deserted island and I have partial amnesia due to the wreck. I remember that coconuts are edible so climb a tree to pick them. While attempting to pick a coconut, one falls, lands of a rock and splits open. Note that I did not intend for the coconut to fall, let alone plan for it to fall because I guessed coconuts that fall on rocks might crack open. The coconut falling was random *in respect to a problem I hadn’t yet even tried to solve*. Yet it ended solving a problem regardless. Furthermore, due to my amnesia, I’ve hypothetically forgotten what I know about physics, including mass, inertia, etc. Specifically, I lack an explanation as to why the coconut landing on the rock causes it to open. As such, my knowledge of how to open coconuts is merely a useful rule of thumb, which is limited in reach. For example, in the absence of an explanation, I would collect coconuts picked from other trees, carry them to this same tree, climb it, then release them at the same place I dropped it above the same rock to open them. This is a useful rule of thumb. However, explanatory knowledge has significant reach. Specifically, if my explanatory knowledge of physics, including inertia, mass, etc. returned, I could use that explanation to strike coconut with any similar sized rock, rather than vice versa. Furthermore, I could exchange the rock with another object with significant mass, such as an anchor and open objects other than coconuts, such as shells, use this knowledge to protect myself from attacking wildlife, etc. While there are always explanations behind useful rules of thumb, evolution isn't required to conceive of problems or their underlying explanations to solve them as we do. This also explains why the sort of "just good enough" solutions we see in biology have a very limited reach. This is opposed to the kind of solutions that would come from a semantic understanding of how the world works, which would have greater reach. Note: this is a more explicit form of the criticism of natures "bad design." Yes, human beings can design things in the absence of explanatory knowledge, but our current, best explanation for our relatively recent, exponential growth in knowledge is a growing preference for explanatory theories about how the world works, as opposed to useful rules of thumb. The degree in which we can currently design an organism's DNA is based on discovering the explanations behind useful rules of thumb, like selective breading. Yet, that non-explanatory knowledge allowed us to make significant changes in absence of explanatory knowledge of how it actually worked. The laryngeal nerve of the Giraffe is what you'd expect to get from non-explanatory knowledge. People have the capacity to make better designs because we are universal explainers. We can create explanatory theories about how the world works, which have greater reach. So, my statement that human beings can design a better biosphere is not just bravado. It is based on two things. The first is, unless something is prohibited by the laws of physics, the only thing that would prevent us from achieving it is knowing how. Including designing a more moral biosphere. The second is, we are universal explainers. We can create explanatory theories about how the world works. Evolution cannot.critical rationalist
July 12, 2017
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@KF If I'm presenting a characterization, I can expect you to present an explanatory theory as to how designers work, which allows them to accomplish design? And from there, point out that Neo-darwinism doesn't fit that explanation? Otherwise, it seems that my characterization is accurate, in that your prediction of what we will experience isn't baed on an explanation, but on inductivism. In fact, you seem to suggest that we will not experience Nobel prizes on the subject in the future because we have not experiencing the presentation of Nobel prizes on that subject in the past. Of course, that could have been said for all Nobel prizes on their related subject up to the date that we actually experienced them being presented. So, this isn't a valid criticism because it's applicable to all yet to be awarded subjects, not just the one in question. Again, what else is this other than inductivism? Your assumption wouldn't happen to be baed on supposed divine revelation, instead of past experience, would it?critical rationalist
July 12, 2017
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@UB
CR: You seem to be heading in the direction of “There are aspects of information the paper doesn’t address.” If so, what are those aspects? Please be specific.
UB: I haven’t been merely “heading in that direction”. I’ve been standing there with a flashing neon sign and a marching band. I do not believe constructor theory addresses the fundamentals of recorded memory, and as its advocate, you cannot go to the theory and draw from it what it (apparently) does not have to give.
And I keep asking you for a definition of information in a physical sense. To say the “fundamentals of recorded memory” is incomplete, you first need to define what information is. So, it’s unclear how you know it’s absent from the paper. So, what properties of information are missing? Please be specific. For example, I’ve pointed out that most theories of information fail to define what it means to be distinguishable in a non-circular way. Nothing in what you presented addresses this. So, are you saying information isn’t distinguishable in this sense, and requires someone or thing to commutate that ahead of time? Is this why you think information in genomes of organisms signals design? Also, no other theory present a definition of information that “works” across classical and quantum physics. Where in your theory does this occur? Are you suggesting that information is something cannot be stored in qbits because it’s absent from your theory? And what about copying? Are you suggesting that copyabity isn’t a property of information because it’s absent from your theory? This would be particularly troublesome for ID, as a designer would need to copy the information present there when creating the organisms at some time in the past. And, to be present in its decedents, organisms would need to copy that information when making a copy of itself. Of course, any such physical theory of information would be bad news for ID, so it comes as no surprise that one hasn’t been forthcoming. As for what you seem to think is missing, this was addressed in both the constructor theoretic papers on information and life. I’ve quoted the relevant sections before on other threads. You didn’t provide any criticism of it there either. I’ll follow up on this shortly in additional comments.
UB: I haven’t said anything about the definition of information in the paper; I’m working directly from your own comments on the subject.
So, you’re also leaning towards the objection that I haven’t presented the theory here in a comment box, as opposed to referencing a paper? Is there some reason why you haven’t explicitly voiced this supposed objection, instead of disingenuously making it a qualification for providing an answer?
UB:My suggestion is that you step back, tell yourself “Yep, another theory of everything”, then walk away.
Given that constructor theory isn’t a “theory of everything”, it’s unclear why I should follow advice on something you don’t seem to understand. Being able to express all scientific theories as possible and impossible tasks and actually defining what those tasks in those terms is not the same thing.critical rationalist
July 12, 2017
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CR, neither you nor any other person has reduced mindedness to the electro-mechanical, determined, programmed and/or stochastic behaviour of any computational substrate. Not to mention accounting for the functionality of such a substrate that must be chock-full of FSCO/I on blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. If you dispute these, simply provide cases ______ and _____ . I am confident, per utter absence of relevant Nobel Prizes as just one indicator, that those blanks will remain un-filled. Nor is that subject to the loaded strawman caricatures you projected to stand in for me. Genuine mindedness must be responsibly, rationally free and is guided by the governing impulse of conscience towards duty to truth and right, on pain of ending in self-referential absurdities and cynical manipulativeness. In short, evolutionary materialist accounts and their fellow travellers end in a bull in the china shop chaos. Meanwhile, design lies yet unaccounted for on such fatally cracked and broken foundations. I therefore Put back on the table the points you have distracted attention from, on ID as a scientific matter:
pardon but why do you put the cart before the horse regarding ID? The design inference is an empirically based inference on tested, reliable sign that the best explanation for certain naturally occurring phenomena is intelligently directed configuration. This is based on for example finding complex text that functions algorithmically in DNA, in the heart of the living cell. Can you show cases of text beyond 500 – 1,000 bits of information that are originally produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity? I suggest not, but kindly give examples: _________ Even your objection is yet another case in point of how such comes about by design. Among literally trillions of such observed cases. Going further, the conclusion on such inference that design is the best current empirically grounded explanation then opens up the further questions of candidates and how one chooses. Currently, scientific investigations are unable to answer this, either for the world of life or the fine tuning of the cosmos. I have pointed out for years that a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter et al could plausibly account for cell based life on earth. But the source of a cosmos is a different matter indeed, especially given the logic of being and the need for a finitely remote, necessary being world root.
Let's see if, second time around, you will address on the focal issues. KFkairosfocus
July 10, 2017
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Checking back in. CR at #53 and #54
You seem to be heading in the direction of “There are aspects of information the paper doesn’t address.” If so, what are those aspects? Please be specific.
Okay:
What is required for information to become embedded in a medium and play a causal role in its preservation? It requires a system that is capable of semantic closure. Systems that are capable of semantic closure use a combination of representations and constraints to establish a medium of information. This medium uses discontinuous association in order to specify the structure of the constraints, and the structure of the constraints assign the relationships between the representations and their referents. This enables semantic closure to occur. It occurs when there is a functional relation between the arrangements of the representations and the structures of the constraints. This is an interdependent system, meaning that the establishment of any single referent by its constraint requires functional constraints for many other referents. Semantic closure only occurs when this successful coordination is in place. By the way, you suggest that the “physical aspects” of this information “being embedded in a storage medium” are “not unique”. This is completely wrong. An information system with the capacity to specify and organize all the constraints of its own translation is quite an object. It requires the use of spatially-oriented representations. This means that the relationships between the representations and their referents must be based on the spatial orientation of objects within each individual representation. This requires an organizational hierarchy in the recognition of the representations. This organizational heirarchy is what enables the system’s high capacity and transcribability.
I haven’t been merely “heading in that direction”. I’ve been standing there with a flashing neon sign and a marching band. I do not believe constructor theory addresses the fundamentals of recorded memory, and as its advocate, you cannot go to the theory and draw from it what it (apparently) does not have to give. That’s the whole point of asking you to tell me the physical conditions behind the comments you make. You've been unable to relate your theory to the universal observations of the gene system, so you build a sideshow where you and I don’t agree on what information is, and then complain that I won’t clarify myself. The whole thing is a sham. No one has said one word about the conception of information as you presented it in the comment in question, and in fact, I am more than happy to tell you that I too believe information is embedded in the genetic medium, and I too believe that it persists there because it plays a causal role in its preservation. The idea that information is embedded in genes and it plays a causal role in being retained is not the problem. The problem is that I can relate the semiotic aspects of the system to universal observation, but you can’t do the same with constructor theory. And thus, you are looking for something else to talk about -- a distraction.
Apparently, you disagree with how information is defined in the referenced paper, yet you haven’t provided any specific criticism of it.
I haven't said anything about the definition of information in the paper; I'm working directly from your own comments on the subject. As for providing criticism, you really must be joking -- there's that big part where the advocates of the theory can’t even relate it to universal observation because the theory itself skips over the defining physical and organizational features of the system. Frankly, at this point, given your assurance that the theory doesn't address these aspects, I wonder why you think I should consider it any further. Making coherent sense of the universal observations is the very thing that matters in science. My suggestion is that you step back, tell yourself "Yep, another theory of everything", then walk away.Upright BiPed
July 9, 2017
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CR @60
CR: Nature cannot criticize ideas though the sort of analysis described above. Only people can.
Only a mind can grasp the content — semantics — of an idea. Criticism and conjecture are both based on the basis of that semantic understanding. Note the essential role of the mind here. Also note that from a materialistic perspective it is entirely unclear how one gets from semantics to syntax. How does one instruct one's neurons to act in accordance with one's understanding of ideas and write a forum post?
CR: In fact, what is unique to people is to notice a problem, conjecture explanatory theories about how the world works, in reality, that helps us solve it, then test those theories and discard errors we find. The contents of theories do not come from observations. They do not come from anything source that has some kind of foundation. They are guesses. But they are not retained randomly.
Indeed. They are based on semantic understanding and followed by a mysterious (from a materialist perspective) bridging of the chasm between semantics and syntax.
CR: In evolution, modifications to existing knowledge are random to any specific problem to be solve, as opposed to being completely random.
Evolution, as a physical process has nothing to do with semantics, so the usage of the “knowledge” is entirely wrong. Moreover, natural selection eliminates perfectly viable organisms. It does not discard errors. The not so wooly sheep are eliminated by a severe winter, not because they ‘wrong’ or ‘not viable’, but because it happens to be a severe winter. A comet killed the dinosaurs not because they were untrue, erroneous or ‘not viable’, no just …. because. That is not ‘criticism’ is any meaningful sense of the word.
CR: In the case of people, modifications to existing knowledge that is targeted at a specific problem, but it still lacks a foundation.
Do you not see that, considering the role of semantics, you cannot use “knowledge” in both cases? We are talking about fundamentally different processes.
CR: This is because what modifications we make isn’t derived from observations. So, both entail variation and criticism, but in different forms.
Clearly, fundamentally different forms.Origenes
July 9, 2017
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CR @60
CR: Again, you seem to be confused. Constructor theory is new mode of explanation, in which all scientific theories are expressed in possible and impossible transformations. So, there is a constructor theoretic description of information, which you seem to have confused as constructor theory as a whole.
It is you who seems to be confused. Your constructor theory does not restrict itself to scientific theories. For instance, many times you have written about 'knowledge' in DNA. My point is very simple: if constructor theory is correct and 'knowledge' evolves according to some evolutionary mechanism, as is allegedly the case for information in DNA, then there are insurmountable semantic concerns WRT to knowledge.Origenes
July 9, 2017
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CR @59 Thanks. It is a terrible use of words — knowledge presupposes a knower. But for now I can cope with it. My argument remains the same. Let me brake it down for you: 1. Given constructor theory knowledge evolves independent from mind by some evolutionary mechanism — ‘variation and criticism’. 2. This criticism (selection) focuses on syntax only; it ignores semantics (if that exists at all). Therefore. 3. Semantics of all our knowledge is purely ‘random’ — unfiltered/untouched by criticism. IOWs according to constructor theory all knowledge is semantically incoherent. 4. Knowledge is not semantically incoherent. Therefore (3 & 4). 5. Constructor theory is false.Origenes
July 9, 2017
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According to constructor theory, information evolves independent from the mind. The selection process involved focuses on ‘syntax’ (see #53) NOT semantics (meaning).
Again, you seem to be confused. Constructor theory is new mode of explanation, in which all scientific theories are expressed in possible and impossible transformations. So, there is a constructor theoretic description of information, which you seem to have confused as constructor theory as a whole. Information is exactly expressed in constructor theoretic terms that relate to what regularities in nature that define information. On top of that, Knowledge is a specific kind of information that causes itself to be retained when instantiated in a storage medium. This includes the storage mediums of brains, books an even the genome of organisms. So, I'm disagreeing with you in the case that all knowledge grows due to its syntax alone. For example, to quote from the same paper...
I'm interested in basically anything that's fundamental. It's not confined to fundamental physics, but for me that's what it all revolves around. In the case of constructor theory, how this is going to develop totally depends on what the theory turns out to say and even more fundamentally, whether it turns out to be true. If it turns out to be false that one cannot build a foundation to physics in the constructor theoretic way, that will be extremely interesting because that will mean that whole lines of argument that seemed to make it inevitable that we need a constructor theory are actually wrong, and whole lines of unification that seem to connect different fields don't connect them and yet, therefore, they must be connected in some other way, because the truth of the world has to be connected. If it turns out to be wrong, the chances are it will be found to be wrong long before it's falsified. This again is the typical way in scientific theories. What gets the headlines is if you do an experiment and you predict a certain particle, and it doesn't appear, and then you're proved wrong, but actually the overwhelming majority of scientific theories are proved wrong long before they ever get tested. They're proved wrong by being internally inconsistent or being inconsistent with other theories that we believe to be true, or most often they're proved wrong by not doing the job of explanation that they were designed to do. So if you have a theory that is supposed to, for example, explain the second law of thermodynamics, and why there is irreversibility when the fundamental laws of physics are reversible, and then you find by analyzing this theory that it doesn't actually do that, then you don't have to bother to test it, because it doesn't address the problem that it was designed to address. If constructor theory turns out to be false, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that it will be by that method that it just doesn't do this unification job or foundational job that it was designed to do.
Nature cannot criticize ideas though the sort of analysis described above. Only people can. In fact, what is unique to people is to notice a problem, conjecture explanatory theories about how the world works, in reality, that helps us solve it, then test those theories and discard errors we find. The contents of theories do not come from observations. They do not come from anything source that has some kind of foundation. They are guesses. But they are not retained randomly. In evolution, modifications to existing knowledge are random to any specific problem to be solve, as opposed to being completely random. In the case of people, modifications to existing knowledge that is targeted at a specific problem, but it still lacks a foundation. This is because what modifications we make isn't derived from observations. So, both entail variation and criticism, but in different forms. For example, one key aspect of science is that criticism includes deliberate, specially designed empirical tests. But it's still one of many forms of criticism, as illustrated in the quote.critical rationalist
July 9, 2017
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The paper you referrence in post #17 nowhere mentions “knowledge”, instead it uses the term “information.” Is conflating these two terms your own ‘invention?’
No, it's not. Again, not all information is knowledge, but all knowledge is information. From this paper...
The information in the recipe is an abstract constructor that I shall call knowledge (without a knowing subject [26]). Knowledge has an exact characterization in constructor theory: it is information that can act as a constructor and cause itself to remain instantiated in physical substrates. Crucially, error-correcting the replication is necessary. Hence the subunits pi must assume values in a discrete (digital) information variable: one whose attributes are separated by non-allowed attributes. For, if all values in a continuum were allowed, error-correction would be logically impossible.
critical rationalist
July 9, 2017
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CR @56 You have been totally unresponsive to my argument. Maybe I wasn't quite clear. Let's try one step at a time: Are you familiar with "epiphenomenalism" (T.H.Huxley)? If so, do you understand why this is relevant to constructor theory? According to constructor theory, information/knowledge evolves independent from the mind. The selection process involved focuses on 'syntax' (see #53) NOT semantics (meaning). Semantics, if it exists at all, is invisible for selection. Are you with me so far?Origenes
July 9, 2017
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@KF As I've pointed out before, of the trillions of times we've experienced intelligent agents, they've had complex material brains. Yet, I'm guessing you have not concluded from those experience that all intelligent agents require complete material brains. Right? Again, if you don't understand how designers work (or are committed to the idea that designers must be inexplicable for theological or philosophical reasons) then it's unclear how you known we wouldn't experience nature creating knowledge. Let me present another criticism from this interview on constructor theory... (emphasis mine)
One of the central philosophical motivations for why I do fundamental physics is that I'm interested in what the world is like; that is, not just the world of our observations, what we see, but the invisible world, the invisible processes and objects that bring about the visible. Because the visible is only the tiny, superficial and parochial sheen on top of the real reality, and the amazing thing about the world and our place in it is that we can discover the real reality. We can discover what is at the center of stars even though we've never been there. We can find out that those cold, tiny objects in the sky that we call stars are actually million-kilometer, white, hot, gaseous spheres. They don't look like that. They look like cold dots, but we know different. We know that the invisible reality is there giving rise to our visible perceptions. That science has to be about that has been for many decades a minority and unpopular view among philosophers and, to a great extent, regrettably even among scientists. They have taken the view that science, just because it is characterized by experimental tests, has to be only about experimental tests, but that's a trap. If that were so, it would mean that science is only about humans and not even everything about humans but about human experience only. It's solipsism. It's purporting to have a rigorous objective world view that only observations count, but ending up by its own inexorable logic as saying that only human experience is real, which is solipsism. I think it's important to regard science not as an enterprise for the purpose of making predictions, but as an enterprise for the purpose of discovering what the world is really like, what is really there, how it behaves and why. Which is tested by observation. But it is absolutely amazing that the tiny little parochial and weak and error-prone access that we have to observations is capable of testing theories and knowledge of the whole of reality that has tremendous reach far beyond our experience. And yet we know about it. That's the amazing thing about science. That's the aspect of science that I want to pursue.
critical rationalist
July 9, 2017
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@Origenes
If knowledge doesn’t require a mind, or rather isn’t held by a mind, then its content, if it exists at all, is not recognized. By this I mean that only a mind can grasp the content — the semantics — of knowledge. As we all know, physical processes are neither interested in semantics, nor are they capable of grasping it.
Again, as I'm redefining it (or expanding the definition of it) here, Knowledge is information that plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage mechanism. You're still suck in the idea that knowledge is something that requires knowing subjects, or that all symbols require someone to give them meaning. Sure, they have meaning to us, but that's unavoidable when we define them for our purposes. But this doesn't necessary mean that some one or some thing had to impose meaning for all knowledge to cause themselves to be retained when we're not in the picture.
Therefore, you seem to be arguing for knowledge that is causally efficacious in virtue of its syntax, not by virtue of its semantics.
Again, I’m presenting a definition of knowledge that represents a type of unification, just like Newton provided a unification of the laws of motion for both apples and planets. Before then, they were assumed to distinctly different things. Knowledge plays a role in being retained. Sometimes people play a role as well. But not always. We exploit the regularities in nature that allow for information. From the paper..
The second is that Shannon’s theory is about information represented in distinguishable states, but does not specify what distinguishing consists of physically. So, consider the non-perturbing measurement that distinguishes two possible messages x and y. It has the following effects in those two cases: message receiver message receiver x x0 ? x x y x0 ? y y (1) where x0 is a receptive state of some medium capable of instantiating the outcome x or y. But this does not in fact distinguish message x from message y unless the receiver states x and y are themselves distinguishable. Therefore (1), considered as a definition of distinguishability, would be circular. Indeed, no existing theory of information provides a non-circular account of what it means for a set of physical states to be mutually distinguishable. The theory that we shall present here does.
In this sense, some previous agreement isn't necessary at a physical level. Furthermore, we cannot merely choose for some information on a flash drive to cure cancer. That's because a cure for cancer will only happen when the necessary knowledge of what transformations of matter are required is actually present there, which will result in killing cancer cells without killing the patient. As an intelligent agent, if you arrange bits on a flash drive with the intention to cause the right transformations, does that mean it will cure cancer? No, it doesn't. If you received a flash drive that you believed to contain the right sequence of bits, does that mean it will accutally cure cancer? No, it doesn't. So, our intent and belief is insufficient. Sure, we could choose not to employ such knowledge if, for example, we found it immoral due to requiring someone else to die as a consequence. And we would do so because we comprehended the consequences of it being successful. But, even then, that would be based on other theories about how the world works, which we do not choose either. So, the specific knowledge we end up with isn't something we choose. If it was, I'd simply choose that the hard drive on my Mac has the knowledge to cure all known diseases and that would be it.critical rationalist
July 9, 2017
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So, I will first tell you that I (obviously) find nothing in the paper that spells out an answer to the question I asked you. I will then ask you to point it out to me in relevant detail.
I could have told you that before you asked it, which is why I asked for clarification on what is information. We don’t agree on the definition. Specifically, you’re starting out with an idea of information as an a priori concept. But that’s not the approach taken in the paper. That is a fundamental difference in how information is defined. To quote the paper…
The basic principle of constructor theory is that I. All other laws of physics are expressible entirely in terms of statements about which physical transformations are possible and which are impossible, and why.
The “theory” part of constructor theory is the question of can all other laws be expressed in that way. Another part of constructor theory is a kind of algebra that makes expressing those things possible, just as new methods were required for quantum mechanics. On one hand, you’re saying that information in organisms can viewed as symbols that have meaning in the traditional sense that we impart it. On the other hand, the constructor theory of information asks what physical regularities in nature define information, including symbols, etc. It represents a fundamental unification at a deeper level, in the sense that Newton unified the laws of motion between apples and planets (except Newton still was working in the current conception of physics and constructor theory is more fundamental mode of explanation.) So, what you implicitly wrote is…
I know one thing for certain that you will not do in your next comment: you will not [accept my theory of information ]
Because acceptance of that is implied in that statement. And, in that sense, you are correct. But, I’ve pointed that out from the start and have been working to resolve it. You keep repeating the same question. Of course, all of this is outlined in the paper itself. So, apparently you disagree with it, yet haven’t presented any criticism of it, either. From the paper..
But in other respects, information does resemble some entities that appear in laws of physics: the theory of computation, and statistical mechanics, seem to refer directly to it without regard to the specific media in which it is instantiated, just as conservation laws do for the electromagnetic four-current or the energy-momentum tensor. We call that the substrate-independence of information. Information can also be moved from one type of medium to another while retaining all its properties qua information. We call this its interoperability property; it is what makes human capabilities such as language and science possible, as well as biological adaptations that use symbolic codes, such as the genetic code. Also, information is of the essence in preparation and measurement, both of which are necessary for testing scientific theories. The output of a measurement is information; the input of a preparation includes information, specifying an attribute with which a physical system is to be prepared. All these applications of information involve abstraction, in that one entity is represented symbolically by another. But information is not abstract in the same sense as, say, the set of all prime numbers, for it only exists when it is physically instantiated. So the laws governing it, like those governing computation – but unlike those governing prime numbers – are laws of physics. In this paper we conjecture what these laws are.
From there, the paper goes on to explain this in detail, regarding reversible computations, etc. It also integrates information will quantum mechanics, which isn’t mentioned at all in biosemiosis and another reason why I asked if you considered it a theory of information. If I'm incorrect, please point out where quantum information is addressed.critical rationalist
July 9, 2017
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…you keep pretending that a particular paper provides an answer to this question, which the paper itself does not even address. The reason you keep pointing to the paper is because you yourself are unable to draw from that paper an answer that it does not contain.
You seem to be heading in the direction of “There are aspects of information the paper doesn’t address.” If so, what are those aspects? Please be specific. Note: this would require having a theory of information to define what aspects need to be accounted for. Apparently, you disagree with how information is defined in the referenced paper, yet you haven’t provided any specific criticism of it.
Secondarily, in this conversation and in our previous conversation, you’ve managed to manufacture this silly idea that I am somehow withholding from you a statement about which “theory of information” I am referring to when I write. Yet, you have already been pointed to my website, which is clearly labeled Biosemiosis, thus indicating that my comments stem from a semiotic view of biological information.
And, from the start, I’ve presented criticism of biosemiosis as an attempt to bring information into fundamental physics. In fact, I’ve given one in this very thread. Namely, there are a number of properties of information that are not addressed, aspects that are circular and aspects for which there are more fundamental explanations than it provides (and do not lead to the supposed conclusions you’ve reached). Your lack of a response gave the impression you are referring to some other theory of information that fills in those gaps, such as Shannon’s theory, which is linked to on your site. Finally, I asked if you consider Biosemiosis just such a theory, which took you several comments to answer. What took so long?critical rationalist
July 9, 2017
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critical rationalist
CR: What I did was present a very brief definition of knowledge that does not require a knowing subject.
If knowledge doesn’t require a mind, or rather isn’t held by a mind, then its content, if it exists at all, is not recognized. By this I mean that only a mind can grasp the content — the semantics — of knowledge. As we all know, physical processes are neither interested in semantics, nor are they capable of grasping it. Therefore, you seem to be arguing for knowledge that is causally efficacious in virtue of its syntax, not by virtue of its semantics. For clarity, by ‘syntax’ I mean the electrochemical properties of ‘knowledge’, e.g. the number of neurons involved in the knowledge, the connections between them, their firing thresholds, the rate and strength at which they fire, the way in which these change over time and in response to other neural activity, and so on.
CR: The creation of knowledge is possible in both cases due to the same regularities in nature and variations on the same process: a form of variation and criticism.
You suggest that an evolutionary mechanism (‘variation and criticism’) is responsible for the creation of knowledge. It follows from your definition of knowledge (see above) that this evolutionary mechanism only selects for the syntax of knowledge while its semantic properties are invisible to selection. Which means that the meaning/content/semantics of all our knowledge is purely ‘random’ — unfiltered by selection. Hence we are all utterly moonstruck. Which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, now does it?Origenes
July 9, 2017
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CR The paper you referrence in post #17 nowhere mentions "knowledge", instead it uses the term "information." Is conflating these two terms your own 'invention?'Origenes
July 9, 2017
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CR, pardon but why do you put the cart before the horse regarding ID? The design inference is an empirically based inference on tested, reliable sign that the best explanation for certain naturally occurring phenomena is intelligently directed configuration. This is based on for example finding complex text that functions algorithmically in DNA, in the heart of the living cell. Can you show cases of text beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of information that are originally produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity? I suggest not, but kindly give examples: _________ Even your objection is yet another case in point of how such comes about by design. Among literally trillions of such observed cases. Going further, the conclusion on such inference that design is the best current empirically grounded explanation then opens up the further questions of candidates and how one chooses. Currently, scientific investigations are unable to answer this, either for the world of life or the fine tuning of the cosmos. I have pointed out for years that a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter et al could plausibly account for cell based life on earth. But the source of a cosmos is a different matter indeed, espeically given the logic of being and the need for a finitely remote, necessary being world root. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2017
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CR @ 38: So, your working example of "knowledge" involves "knowers", but your statement that "knowledge", i.e. information that preserves/maintains/improves itself, does not require "knowers", is based off of..?LocalMinimum
July 8, 2017
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A very simply way of demonstrating the deceptions is to merely give you what you want and observe your reaction. So, I will first tell you that I (obviously) find nothing in the paper that spells out an answer to the question I asked you. I will then ask you to point it out to me in relevant detail. Additionally, I assumed from the name of my website that you'd quickly pick up on the fact that my comments here are based on a semiotic view of biological information. But in case this has escaped you, I will gladly confirm for you that my comments here are based on a semiotic view of biological information. Now what are you going to do? I know one thing for certain that you will not do in your next comment: you will not answer my question: What is necessary for information to become embedded in a medium and play a role in its preservation? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Let us see if you will now, finally, answer the question.Upright BiPed
July 8, 2017
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