Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ken Miller in Birmingham

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Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
bornagain77:
scorfulus you are using a bad design argument to refute design,, which is illogical,,,
Could you explain why the argument is faulty?scrofulous
November 7, 2009
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I've attended one of Miller's lectures in the past. Unbelievably difficult to sit through without gagging profusely. Casey is currently posting a series of posts over at ENV that target the blatant misrepresentations that Miller consistently spews. Next time any of you attend a Miller lecture, go armed with a stack of copies of Casey's rebuttal of Miller's nonsense. Stand at the door and hand them out as attendees leave the venue....hehe.FtK
November 7, 2009
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bornagain77, The fact that some "junk" DNA has a regulatory function in no way undermines the pseudogene argument against common descent. To defeat that argument, you'll need to show that all the pseudogenes in question are actually functional. Once you're done, you'll need to explain why all the molecular evidence, and not just pseudogenes, points to a nested hierarchy, exactly as predicted by common descent. Good luck with that. Again, why would the creator choose to make common descent appear to be true, if it's not? It's the antithesis of Walter ReMine's "message theory". ReMine tells us that we should expect nature and life to be structured to give the overwhelming impression of having been created:
Life was reasonably designed to meet three simultaneous goals: 1. Survival 2. To look like the product of one designer (or unified design team acting together as one), and unlike the product of multiple designers acting independently. 3. To resist all other explanations of origin.
Yet the evidence actually supports evolutionary theory and common descent. What gives, bornagain? Why is the creator hiding?scrofulous
November 7, 2009
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scorfulus you are using a bad design argument to refute design,, which is illogical,,, this video will clearly show you why that argument is irrelevant to Intelligent Design: William Lane Craig on the Validity Of Intelligent Design (As Science) 3 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZgbornagain77
November 7, 2009
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Mung:
And what does his argument in that video have to do with intelligent design theory? He makes the point to the audience that they were not questioned on this data, and that the ID people had no response, but he fails to tell the audience why they should have responded to it. Why should they be required to address an irrelevant argument?
It's not irrelevant. If the chromosomal fusion data had undermined evolutionary theory instead of bolstering it, the defense team would have jumped all over it. The fact that they did not (and could not) speaks volumes. Evolutionary theory passed yet another empirical test with flying colors. That is a point worth making, and Miller made it. Regarding the argument that the chromosomal fusion evidence is compatible with ID, as long as you accept common descent, that's absolutely true -- but only because any evidence is compatible with this weaker form of ID. If ID makes no distinguishing predictions, it's not a scientific theory. For example, consider this question: Why hasn't human chromosome 2 split back into its two constituent chromosomes? The evolutionist can explain this by pointing out that it is vanishingly improbable, in a naturalistic scenario, for the chromosomes to split apart at exactly the same spot where they originally fused. But if humans are designed, then why didn't the designer "fix" the fusion by splitting the chromosomes apart? If He's willing to tweak the human genome in other ways, then why not "unfuse" the chromosomes? The ID supporter has to shrug and say "The designer could have done it, but for some reason He chose not to. We don't understand why, but he keeps choosing to do things in a way that makes undirected evolution appear to be true."scrofulous
November 7, 2009
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scrofulous, you may want to check that pseudo-gene argument (as well as all your other junk DNA evidence),,,we now have substantial evidence overthrowing that line of deception,,,ooops I mean evidence: Despite the unfounded disappointment of materialists , a large sampling of recent studies indicates high level regulatory function is to be found for all sorts of previous "Junk DNA" sequences across the entire spectrum of the human genome. How The Junk DNA Hypothesis Has Changed Since 1980 - Richard Sternberg - Oct. 2009 - Excellent Summary Excerpt: A surprising finding of ENCODE and other transcriptome projects is that almost every nucleotide of human (and mouse) chromosomes is transcribed in a regulated way. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/how_the_junk_dna_hypothesis_ha.html Junk DNA Found To Have High Level Function - Lists Of Over 100 Studies http://docs.google.com/View?id=dc8z67wz_25gqm4zzfd No Such Thing As 'Junk RNA,' Say Researchers - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Tiny strands of RNA previously dismissed as cellular junk are actually very stable molecules that may play significant roles in cellular processes, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091013105809.htm Here is a detailed refutation of the Vitamin C (GULO) pseudogene argument used by evolutionists for human/chimp common ancestry: Excerpt Of Conclusion: When examined in detail, the full pseudogene dataset we collected does not lend itself to a reasonable neo-Darwinian interpretation. http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_118-127.pdfbornagain77
November 7, 2009
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He is asking his audience to reject creationism based on evidence and reason, not on his authority, as can be clearly seen in this video from 2007.
And what does his argument in that video have to do with intelligent design theory? He makes the point to the audience that they were not questioned on this data, and that the ID people had no response, but he fails to tell the audience why they should have responded to it. Why should they be required to address an irrelevant argument?Mung
November 7, 2009
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So according to you it's merely gratuitous self-aggrandizement?Mung
November 7, 2009
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Mung:
He presented drawings of himself in the Dover-Kitzmiller courtroom, and then glowingly displayed photos of his textbook on the frontcover of Time magazine. This is a form of argument from authority, where he is establishing his “credentials” so that the audience will understand that they can trust him to tell them the truth.
It would be an argument from authority if Miller said "My book's been on the cover of Time, and I accept common descent. Therefore, you should accept common descent." Of course he says nothing of the kind. Instead, he lays out the evidence, all of which can be independently checked, and explains why it supports evolutionary theory and undermines creationism. He is asking his audience to reject creationism based on evidence and reason, not on his authority, as can be clearly seen in this video from 2007.scrofulous
November 7, 2009
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A bit off topic but very interesting: William Lane Craig On The Viability Of Intelligent Design
Craig opens with the following: "...it's critical that we begin by clearly defining our terms, and this is especially important ... because there is such widespread misunderstanding of what Intelligent Design theory is." He could use Ken Miller as Exhibit A. Thanks for the links.Mung
November 7, 2009
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He presented drawings of himself in the Dover-Kitzmiller courtroom, and then glowingly displayed photos of his textbook on the frontcover of Time magazine. This is a form of argument from authority, where he is establishing his "credentials" so that the audience will understand that they can trust him to tell them the truth.Mung
November 7, 2009
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vjtorley:
I should add that I am a believer in common descent myself, and I have no problem believing that humans and apes share a common (48-chromosomed) ancestor. However, there is little doubt that the fusion event itself occurred within the human lineage, and not at the point of divergence between humans and chimps, which is generally considered to have taken place at least 5 million years ago.
I think you are misinterpreting both Miller's argument and Green's comment above. Miller completely agrees that the fusion event must have occurred in the lineage leading to humans after it diverged from the lineage leading to chimps. Indeed, that's his point: if there weren't evidence for such a fusion event, then evolutionists would have no way of explaining why we have 46 chromosomes while chimps and other apes have 48. Evolutionary theory thus survives yet another empirical test. I also think you misunderstood Green's point in writing this:
When he actually got onto the evidence, again he just gave evidence for common descent. Aside from the fact that CD is compatible with ID, he also told the audience that there was *no* other explanation for the fusion in human chromosome 2. It appears he hadn;t even considered the possibility that this fusion might have occured within the human lineage.
What Green is saying here is that Miller didn't consider the possibility that humans and apes were created separately, both with 48 chromosomes, and that the fusion event happened later in the human lineage, reducing the human chromosome count to 46. I suspect that Miller did consider that possibility, but rejected it as absurd. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it. As just one example, consider the broken genes that are found both in humans and in certain primates. The presence of these pseudogenes makes perfect sense if common descent is true, because each lineage inherited them from the common ancestor. On the other hand, suppose that humans were separately created from the other primates. Why, then, did the creator place the same broken genes in both? Why did he want to make it appear that common descent is true?scrofulous
November 7, 2009
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vjtorley, Even in what could be considered your very fair rendering of the genetic evidence, I believe you are giving far too much weight to the genetic evidence,,, There is now ample evidence to overthrow the genetic similarity argument of Chimps and Humans, used by evolutionists, and to argue powerfully for distinct created kinds, especially given the fact that you already concede to the insurmountable gaps in the supposed "human evolution" fossil record: DNA: The Alphabet of Life - David Klinghoffer Excerpt: But all this is trivial compared to the largely unheralded insight gained from the Human Genome Project, completed in 2003. The insight is disturbing. It is that while DNA codes for the cell's building blocks, the information needed to build the rest of the creature is seemingly, in large measure, absent. ,,,The physically encoded information to form that mouse, as opposed to that fly, isn't there. Instead, "It is as if the 'idea' of the fly (or any other organism) must somehow permeate the genome that gives rise to it." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/dna_the_alphabet_of_life.html Higher Levels Of Information In Life - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HavmzWVt8IU Thus the 98.8% similarity derived from the DNA code, to the body plans of chimps and man, is purely imaginary, since it is clearly shown that the overriding "architectural plan" of the body is not even encoded in the DNA in the first place. Of more clarity though, this "98.8% similarity evidence" is derived by materialists from a very biased methodology of presuming that the 1.5% of the genome, which directly codes for proteins, has complete precedence of consideration over the other remaining 98.5% of the genome which does not directly code for proteins. Yet even when considering just this 1.5% of the genome that codes for proteins, we find that the proteins, which are directly coded by that 1.5% of the genome, are shown to differ by a huge 80% difference between chimps and man. Chimps are not like humans - May 2004 Excerpt: the International Chimpanzee Chromosome 22 Consortium reports that 83% of chimpanzee chromosome 22 proteins are different from their human counterparts,,, The results reported this week showed that "83% of the genes have changed between the human and the chimpanzee—only 17% are identical—so that means that the impression that comes from the 1.2% [sequence] difference is [misleading]. In the case of protein structures, it has a big effect," Sakaki said. Eighty percent of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees; Gene; Volume 346, 14 February 2005: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15716009 How in the world did the proteins change by +80% while the genes, which supposedly code for those proteins, remained virtually unchanged? Why is this huge +80% anomaly ignored by materialists and only the biased genetic similarity stressed especially since the proteins are what actually account for 3D structure? As well from what evidence we do have for as far back as we can gather, there is no evidence for evolution. mtDNA Proves Humans And Neanderthals Did Not Evolve - Hugh Ross - audio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcPmJTyn4yw Human Evolution - Genetic Adam And Eve - Hugh Ross - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cfHsFtw02g CHROMOSOME STUDY STUNS EVOLUTIONISTS Excerpt: To their great surprise, Dorit and his associates found no nucleotide differences at all in the non-recombinant part of the Y chromosomes of the 38 men. This non-variation suggests no evolution has occurred in male ancestry. http://www.reasons.org/interpreting-genesis/adam-and-eve/chromosome-study-stuns-evolutionists etc...etc..bornagain77
November 7, 2009
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Green Thank you for your post. Many readers will already be aware of this, but I'd just like to mention that a recent article by Dr. Richard Sternberg, entitled Guy Walks Into a Bar and Thinks He’s a Chimpanzee: The Unbearable Lightness of Chimp-Human Genome Similarity provides a somewhat different slant on chromosome 2 from what you'll find in standard biology textbooks. Sternberg's article is highly entertaining and well worth reading. Green, you made a very interesting comment on Miller's talk:
When he actually got onto the evidence, again he just gave evidence for common descent. Aside from the fact that CD is compatible with ID, he also told the audience that there was *no* other explanation for the fusion in human chromosome 2. It appears he hadn't even considered the possibility that this fusion might have occured within the human lineage. (Emphasis mine - VJT.)
Actually, you are quite correct in your surmise. You might like to have a look at Chromosome Fusion: Chance or Design? by Dr. Barry Starr (May 12th, 2008), a biologist (and a convinced evolutionist). If you scroll down, there is a post by Dr. Barry Starr on August 8, 2008 at 10:50 a.m., where he lists two links that support an estimate of somewhere between 740,000 and 3 million years for the timing of the fusion event. In other words, it looks like it happened during the time of Homo erectus or possibly Homo antecessor. For the benefit of readers, I'll provide Starr's references in full: Biased clustered substitutions in the human genome: The footprints of male-driven biased gene conversion by Timothy R. Dreszer, Gregory D. Wall, David Haussler and Katherine S. Pollard. In Genome Research 2007. 17: 1420-1430. Excerpt from abstract:
Human and chimp orthologous regions show a striking similarity in the shape and magnitude of their respective UBCS maps, suggesting a relatively stable force leads to clustered bias. The strong and stable signal near telomeres may have participated in the evolution of isochores. One exception to the UBCS pattern found in all autosomes is chromosome 2, which shows a UBCS peak midchromosome, mapping to the fusion site of two ancestral chromosomes. This provides evidence that the fusion occurred as recently as 740,000 years ago and no more than ~3 million years ago.
Molecular mechanisms of chromosomal rearrangement during primate evolution by Hildegard Kehrer-Sawatzki and David N. Cooper. In Chromosome Research, (2008) 16:41-56. March 2008. DOI 10.1007/s10577-007-1207-1. Excerpt from p. 43:
Human and chimpanzee karyotypes are distinguishable by virtue of the fusion of two ancestral chromosomes homologous to chimpanzee chromosomes 12 and 13 which gave rise to human chromosome 2 (Dutrillaux 1979, Yunis & Prakash 1982, Jauch et al. 1992, Wienberg et al. 1994). Nucleotide substitution patterns suggest that the fusion occurred between 740 000 and 3 million years ago in the human lineage (Dreszer et al. 2007). This fusion was mediated by recombination between telomeric repeats in the p-arms of two submetacentric ancestral chromosomes. The remnants of this telomere-telomere fusion are still identifiable as degenerate telomeric sequences at 2q13-q14.1 (IJdo et al. 1991, Fan et al. 2002).
I should add that I am a believer in common descent myself, and I have no problem believing that humans and apes share a common (48-chromosomed) ancestor. However, there is little doubt that the fusion event itself occurred within the human lineage, and not at the point of divergence between humans and chimps, which is generally considered to have taken place at least 5 million years ago.vjtorley
November 7, 2009
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In a situation like this, you shoot the bullet quickly so you have time to follow up. You can’t waste words. You must make your case in ONE MINUTE, emphasizing the right words at the right time. Here is how you do it: “Dr. Miller, I don’t want to be unkind here, but in all honesty I have to say that you have seriously misrepresented both ID science and your own theory. “First, just as you did at the Dover trial, you conflated ID, a design inference, with creationism, a religious presupposition. If you think ID depends on a religious presupposition, I challenge you now, without appealing to motives, to show us how the concepts of ‘irreducible complexity’ or ‘specified complexity’ hint at religious faith in any way. Second, in defending Darwnistic macro evolution, an undirected process which is indeed, incompatible with ID, you provide evidence only for generic macro evolution, which ID does not, in any way dispute. On the contrary, Michael Behe, one of ID’s main proponents, posits both ID and macro evolution, yet you allude to him as a “creaitonist.” Please stop doing this since it does violence to both science and responsible public discourse.”StephenB
November 7, 2009
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"He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.”" As a journalist I protect my sources, but I can say for certain that, based on my research, it is certainly misinformation that the Discovery Institute put the Dover school board up to it. To the best of MY knowledge, they were completely freaked by the whole thing. It is sad when this misinfo continues to circulate; sadder still when academics are fronting it. What is happening to society when a freelance hack somewhere is better qualified to know the facts than a tenured prof? It all comes of asking questions instead of spouting one's credentials, I guess. Note: I never wrote much on the the story because I was under contract to co-write a book about something else, on a short deadline. O'Leary
November 7, 2009
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Thanks BA. Somebody posted this the other day but there was no link to a vid for it.tragic mishap
November 7, 2009
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Craig's preceding talk was given Nov. 5 at Indiana University:bornagain77
November 7, 2009
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A bit off topic but very interesting: William Lane Craig On The Viability Of Intelligent Design: The Viability of Intelligent Design 1/3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgSnrat_P3U 2 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luJg-amDjWE 3 of 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg William Lane Craig presents his case for the viability of intelligent design at Indiana University. His opponent was the eminent evolutionary biologist Francisco J. Ayala. This was the first time William Lane Craig had ever publicly debated the subject.bornagain77
November 7, 2009
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Yeah I agree, Joseph. It's infuriating how he can so confidently stand up and lie about ID to an audience. The only reason he gets away with it is because he's generally either preaching to the choir, or to the ignorant who are none the wiser.Green
November 7, 2009
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I would have asked him the following: "What part of your Christianity allows you to lie and misrepresent people's ideas?" Actually I would have yelled out "Liar!" when he stated the Discovery Institute put the Dover SB "up to it".Joseph
November 7, 2009
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Miller's talk sounds exactly like the one he presented at my university earlier this year. I too was surprised by how self-aggrandising he was. He presented drawings of himself in the Dover-Kitzmiller courtroom, and then glowingly displayed photos of his textbook on the frontcover of Time magazine. When he actually got onto the evidence, again he just gave evidence for common descent. Aside from the fact that CD is compatible with ID, he also told the audience that there was *no* other explanation for the fusion in human chromosome 2. It appears he hadn;t even considered the possibility that this fusion might have occured within the human lineage. It was all a bit disappointing really, since the lecture series (the 'James Gregory lectures') were set up to promote discourse between science and religion. Instead of doing this, Miller spent the whole night bashing ID.Green
November 7, 2009
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