Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ken Miller in Birmingham

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Noted Brown University biologist and slayer of windmills, Kenneth Miller, came to Birmingham, Alabama, on Thursday November 5. The room was packed with what seemed to be about 200 (mostly students and some faculty). Overall, Miller displayed the affable but subliminally arrogant attitude I’ve come to expect in some academics. Miller began by giving a long list of his publications interspersed along with some obligatory self-deprecating humor, the apparent take-home message being “look at what a smart and prolific boy I am.” He then launched into Kitzmiller v. Dover and said (whether out of genuine misinformation or outright disingenuousness I cannot say) that the Discovery Institute “put them [the school board] up to it.” After giving a wholly inaccurate definition of ID as the idea that “design in the form of outside intelligent intervention is required to account for the origin of living things,” he launched into the bulk of his lecture most of which simply gave examples of common descent as “proof” of Darwinian evolution.  I must say that I was surprised by the degree to which Miller absolutely savaged ID. It’s not that he simply disagrees with ID, the substance of his message was that ID is a creationist group (no one was mentioned by name) with the Discovery Institute as its front organization working (in his words) “against scientific rationality.” The thrust of his ID comments were wholly denigrating and dismissive.  Miller later admitted that evolution was the product of “design in nature” in search of “adaptive spaces.” His discussion of design was frankly bizarre; at times he almost sounded like a Gaia proponent—I couldn’t figure out if by design he meant just some sort of unfolding or self-direction or if “design” was somehow synonymous with natural selection. The entire presentation in this regard was quite fuzzy.  There was a lot of conflation of concepts—my personal favorite being his conflation of evolution, genetics, and Gregor Mendel. Anyone listening to Miller on this would have thought that Mendel was simply carrying Darwin’s ideas forward; he did not, of course, point out that Darwin’s adherence to pangenesis and the notion of inheritance of acquired characteristics was quite different from that of Mendel. The rest was pretty predictable.

I finally did get to ask Miller a question. It was the second to last one, and Miller was pretty euphoric having hit a series of Q & A home runs from softballs pitched at T-ball speeds mostly by students. The good thing was that by the time I got to pose my question a lot of questioners had prefaced their questions with comments (mostly “thank you, thank you, for supporting theism and science,” “oh what an important struggle we have before us promoting good science, your presentation was marvelous,” etc., etc.). I started by saying that I sincerely wished that this country could get away from this overly simplistic “evolution versus creation” discourse as unhistorical and unhelpful. We talk about evolution as though Wallace and Mivart never existed. Then I said, “Dr. Miller, as you well know, Alfred Russel Wallace, the co-discoverer of natural selection, broke with Darwin over the role of natural selection in creating the human mind. Wallace didn’t think it could account for it; Mivart agreed. Now these objections are still with us today. They haven’t gone away. Surely you’re familiar with the April issue of Nature in which Bolhuis and Wynne asked, ‘Can evolution explain how minds work?’. Don’t we have an educational obligation to give the WHOLE story of evolution? I mean we talk about evolution as if it was simply the story of Darwin and science on the march when, if fact, many of the original objections raised to his theory remain today. This is Whiggish history of the worst kind! How can we get past this and tell the more complete and accurate story of evolution? ” Miller replied by nodding in apparent approval, which seemed inappropriate given his presentation, but then simply didn’t answer the question. The upshot of his reply was to utter some vague generalizations about the Templeton Foundation and that he was working with them on this very thing. Huh??

Well that’s my report. I must say Miller is an engaging and powerful speaker. His points are persuasive to the uninformed and although I have no objection to his having his say in a free markeplace of ideas, I suspect that he does considerable intellectual damage where ever he goes.

Comments
Scoff it really is very funny for you to leave the realm of empirical science and to allude to chizzlewhup to make your case,,, I am giggling right now!!! Tell you what scoff whenEVER you decide to join the real world with empirical evidence I will meaningfully engage you in the merits of what you say, until then you are merely playing word games with absolutely no intent, as far as I can see, to truly judge whether these matters are true are not, and only want to protect your philosophical bias of atheism.bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
bornagain77:
I mean you have totally disrespected the scientific method just so to protect a theory that has no foundation in reality! Myself I would be totally ashamed to contort evidence as you have done just to protect a metaphysical belief.
It sounds like you need to reread this verse from Matthew, bornagain:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 7:3-5, KJV
scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
Mung:
Let’s also assume that it’s true that a nested hierarchy is present. If ID doesn’t predict one, how on earth does the presence of one in any way falsify ID?
It doesn't falsify ID. It just means that ID is extremely unlikely to be the correct explanation. NDE fits the facts much better. Reread the question I posed to StephenB:
Which conclusion better fits the evidence? a. NDE is true, since its predictions regarding congruent nested hierarchies are confirmed. b. ID is true, and it just so happens that the designer, for unknown reasons, happened to pick a design method, out of a zillion possibilities, that happens to match the predictions of NDE. Why? Who knows? The designer works in mysterious ways.
Which of these explanations fits the facts better, Mung?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
04:38 PM
4
04
38
PM
PDT
Mung:
You are arguing that a mutation from A to a where the change from an uppercase ‘A’ to a lowercase ‘a’ entails no change in meaning is a “loss” of information as Spetner is using the term. That’s your argument.
No, it isn't. You're assuming that 'chizzlewhup' is the same thing as information or meaning, but I was very careful not to define what chizzlewhup is. My argument works regardless. As I said, the only assumption required is that the chizzlewhup of two books is identical if they contain the same typographical characters in the same order. If so, then Smeckner's argument fails. Likewise, if we assume that two identical genes contain the same amount of information, then we don't need to know anything else about the definition of information to know that Spetner's argument fails. Read my comments again and you'll see what I mean.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
04:19 PM
4
04
19
PM
PDT
Hmm Scoff, you dodge the topic that Stephen got you pinned with, duck the mutation issue (since there are not trully beneficial mutations for you to cite) Try to play hide and seek with nested Hierarchies,,, But can you really find solace in "nested hierarchies" for youe atheistic delusions?? "Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life," New Scientist (January 21, 2009) Excerpt: Even among higher organisms, “the problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories,”,,,“despite the amount of data and breadth of taxa analyzed, relationships among most [animal] phyla remained unresolved.” ,,,,Carl Woese, a pioneer of evolutionary molecular systematics, observed that these problems extend well beyond the base of the tree of life: “Phylogenetic incongruities [conflicts] can be seen everywhere in the universal tree, from its root to the major branchings within and among the various taxa to the makeup of the primary groupings themselves.”,,, “We’ve just annihilated the (Darwin's) tree of life.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p_1.html#more In fact ever since Michael Denton's book in 1985, "Evolution: A Theory In Crisis", it has been popularly known that different genes tell widely different evolutionary "stories". And though you may have been taught otherwise, the "gene tree" problem remains unresolved to this day. Shilling for Darwin — The wildly irresponsible evolutionist - William Dembski - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The incongruence of gene and species trees is a standing obstacle, or research problem, in molecular phylogenetics. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/shilling-for-darwin-the-wildly-irresponsible-evolutionist/#comments A Primer on the Tree of Life (Part 4) Excerpt: "In sharks, for example, the gut develops from cells in the roof of the embryonic cavity. In lampreys, the gut develops from cells on the floor of the cavity. And in frogs, the gut develops from cells from both the roof and the floor of the embryonic cavity. This discovery—that homologous structures can be produced by different developmental pathways—contradicts what we would expect to find if all vertebrates share a common ancestor. - Explore Evolution http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p_3.html#more Neo-Darwinism's Gene Homology Problem - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6P6bXA50c0 This following study reveals that genes can't even be resolved to the hypothetical mammalian tree of life. A article in - Trends in Ecology and Evolution - concluded “the wealth of competing morphological, as well as molecular proposals of the prevailing phylogenies of the mammalian orders would reduce the mammalian tree to an unresolved bush, the only consistent clade probably being the grouping of elephants and sea cows. W. W. De Jong, “Molecules remodel the mammalian tree,” - Trends in Ecology and Evolution, Vol 13(7), pgs. 270-274 (July 7, 1998). Comparing molecular sequences gives the same pattern of discontinuity as the fossil record does: 'The theory makes a prediction (for amino acid sequence similarity); we've tested it, and the prediction is falsified precisely.' Dr. Colin Patterson Senior Principal Scientific Officer in the Paleontology Department at the British Museum Walter T. Brown, In the Beginning (1989), p. 7 Excerpt: "There is not a trace of evidence on the molecular level for the traditional evolutionary series: simple sea life > fish> amphibians > reptiles> mammals. In general, each of the many categories of organisms appear to be equally isolated." http://evolution-facts.org/Appendix/a21.htm Well scoff,,, seems your fantasy of "nested heirarchy" has a bit more work to cut the mustard,,, My question for you is why in the world is it so important for you to believe Darwinism? I mean you have totally disrespected the scientific method just so to protect a theory that has no foundation in reality! Myself I would be totally ashamed to contort evidence as you have done just to protect a metaphysical belief.bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
I’m not surprised that you’re avoiding the question I raised in #72. I have yet to encounter an ID supporter who could answer it.
Why on earth should an ID supporter bother attempting to answer it when, based on your own admission, it's an issue unrelated to whether ID is true?
ID, even for those who accept common descent, does not predict a nested hierarchy.
Let's say we assume this is true. Let's also assume that it's true that a nested hierarchy is present. If ID doesn't predict one, how on earth does the presence of one in any way falsify ID? How on earth do you change the claim that "ID does not predict a nested hierarchy," into a claim that "ID predicts there will be no a nested hierarchy" and then turn that into an argument that the presence of a nested hierarchy falsifies ID?Mung
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
03:59 PM
3
03
59
PM
PDT
Spetner’s precise definition of information doesn’t matter.
What Spetner means by "information" in the context in which he is using the term absolutely does matter. You are arguing that a mutation from A to a where the change from an uppercase 'A' to a lowercase 'a' entails no change in meaning is a "loss" of information as Spetner is using the term. That's your argument. But if the change from A to a is not a change or loss of information as Spetner is using the term, your argument is not addressing Spetner's argument. Therefore, meaning does matter.Mung
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
03:46 PM
3
03
46
PM
PDT
Stephen, I'm not surprised that you're avoiding the question I raised in #72. I have yet to encounter an ID supporter who could answer it. Indeed, putting myself in the shoes of an ID supporter, I can see no way to answer it. You can't attack the validity of the nested hierarchy. It's been confirmed to an accuracy of better than 38 decimal places. The only alternative I can see would be to come up with some reason why the designer chose to design in a way that makes undirected evolution appear to be true. But if you admit that he did, then you're admitting that the evidence points to undirected evolution, not to design. If so, then there's no reason other than blind faith to believe in a designer. Blind faith is not science. Perhaps you can surprise me by coming up with a viable answer to my question, Stephen.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
03:32 PM
3
03
32
PM
PDT
scrofulous: I appreciate your creative attempt to reframe the issue and set the agenda to suit your own proclivities, but I am not so easily distracted. If you read Flannery's original comments, you will find several points concerning Miller's gross misunderstanding of ID science and his disingenous and illogical approach to attacking it. It appears that you share Miller's misunderstanding, and it is on that matter I persist. In keeping with that point, Flannery addresses Miller's confusion first about basic ID definitions and terms and also his contradictory allusions to deisgn with respect to directed vs undirected evolution. That is the subject matter of this thread and also happens to be the substance of your own personal difficulties, which I outlined @71. That problem persists, and even though discussions about Junk DNA, nesting, and other items, would interest me in other contexts, it does not solve the corrent problem, namely, Miller's [and yours] misunderstanding about the most basic issues.StephenB
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
StephenB, The only place where I've presented a "bad design = no design" argument is in your imagination. I suspect there are lots of strawmen flitting about in there. My actual argument is this: 1. Undirected Darwinian evolution predicts a nested hierarchy. 2. Creationism does not predict a nested hierarchy. 3. ID, even for those who accept common descent, does not predict a nested hierarchy. It's compatible with a nested hierarchy, but unlike NDE, it does not predict one. 4. Molecular and morphological data can be used to reconstruct the nested hierarchy. 5. The nested hierarchies reconstructed from different sets of molecular data are stunningly congruent. 6. The nested hierarchies reconstructed from different sets of morphological data are stunningly congruent. 7. The nested hierarchies reconstructed from molecular data are stunningly congruent with those reconstructed from morphological data. 8. Not one of these congruences is predicted by creationism or ID. There are a bazillion choices a designer could make that would not result in congruent nested hierarchies. Which conclusion better fits the evidence? a. NDE is true, since its predictions regarding congruent nested hierarchies are confirmed. b. ID is true, and it just so happens that the designer, for unknown reasons, happened to pick a design method, out of a zillion possibilities, that happens to match the predictions of NDE. Why? Who knows? The designer works in mysterious ways. Which of these is the better explanation, Stephen?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
02:19 PM
2
02
19
PM
PDT
---scrofulous: "Isn’t it necessary to be wrong first in order to be corrected?" Inasmuch as you were presenting a bad-design=no design argument without even recognizing it, you could not have been more wrong. ---"Perhaps I should apologize for presenting a real argument instead of the strawman you hoped to defeat." They were your words, not mine. Shall I cite them once again. About ID, you argued, ---”It’s an argument for imperfect design that looks like it was created by undirected evolution.” Are you hoping that the passage of time will validate an invalid and confused argument. ID argues that evolution is directed and that biological design is real; Ken Miller argues that evolution is undirected and that biological design is illusory. It is evident that you do not understand ID science or Ken Miller's misguided objections to it, which by the way, is supposed to be the theme of this thread. —--”Out of all the imperfect designs the creator could have chosen, why did he pick one that makes evolutionary theory appear to be correct?” Again, that statement, because it doesn't define "evolutionary theory," which ID does not dispute in general, reflects a high level of confusion about the main arguments that are being presented. —”As I asked bornagain, why is the creator hiding?” Again, you demonstrate your unfamiliarity with both Miller's argument ID's main theme. You should be asking that question of Ken Miller since he is the one that thinks design is an illusion. This is news to you? Rather than fuss all day over Spetner, you ought to take time out to read the FAQ and familiaze yourself with ID's approach to design and Ken Miller's disingenuous approach to it. ----"bornagain, StephenB has some advice for you 'The proper response is, “Thank you, “I stand corrected.' No, I really did mean the advice for you, since it was your name on the correspondence.StephenB
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
01:48 PM
1
01
48
PM
PDT
Mung:
He [Spetner] may not be using the term “information” in the way that you perceive him to be using it. I think you need to clear that up before you can declare victory.
Spetner's precise definition of information doesn't matter. All that matters is that the information contained in one copy of gene A is the same as the information contained in an identical copy of gene A. Surely you're not claiming that Spetner would disagree with that, are you? Imagine that instead of talking about information, we're talking about chizzlewhup. Smeckner, who holds a PhD in physics from Caltech, doesn't tell you what chizzlewhup is, but he does tell you that the amount of chizzlewhup in one book is the same as the amount of chizzlewhup in another, provided that they contain the same typographical characters in the same order. Smeckner then makes the following argument:
The neo-chizzlewhupians would like us to believe that large changes can result from a series of small typographical changes if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose chizzlewhup, they can’t be the steps in the kind of large chizzlewhup-gaining change the neo-chizzlewhupian theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many characters are changed.
You respond by invoking an example: Suppose that you take the book Moby Dick, the first character of which is an 'C'. You change the 'C' to an 'N'. According to Smeckner, you have reduced the chizzlewhup of the book, since all such changes involve the loss of chizzlewhup. Now suppose that you change the 'N' back to a 'C'. According to Smeckner, you have reduced the chizzlewhup even further. Yet you have restored the original text of Moby Dick. By Smeckner's logic, the amount of chizzlewhup contained in Moby Dick is less than the amount of chizzlewhup contained in Moby Dick. This contradicts Smeckner's original assumption about the amount of chizzlewhup in two identical books. You conclude that Smeckner is wrong to claim that every changed character involves a loss of chizzlewhup. Nothing in this argument requires that you know precisely what chizzlewhup is. All that matters is that the chizzlewhup of two identical books is the same.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
01:34 PM
1
01
34
PM
PDT
Just as evolution has moved on from Darwin in 150 years, it is possible for ID to move on from its roots in creation science over 20 or 30 years. My understanding is that it is exactly this ability to move on from cdesign proponentism that makes ID suspect in the eyes of some YECs. Well, we could argue over whether modern ID has it's roots in creation science, but since we both agree that positions can change I think it would be somewhat pointless. I somewhat dislike the "big tent" of ID, because all too often it distracts from the essential claims of ID, but I guess when you're a small minority looking for a broad base of support... Being somewhat a pragmatist, I think it's too late to change what ID is into what I think it ought to be. So within ID I think we have "strong ID" and "weak ID," with strong ID being more along the lines of "Natural Theology" and weak ID being the much more modest claims of "the design inference." I don't really know anything about HAR's, but it does sounds like an interesting area that ID might want to pursue, if they could just keep it separate from the argument that humans and other primates couldn't possibly share a common ancestor.Mung
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
Tell you what scoff, you prove the "mutations" were random Darwinian mutations, exactly as Spetner meant, and were not Directed Mutations, as all evidence for calculated compensatory mutations indicate, and I will gladly release claim to Spetner's remarks that purely random mutations can generate information,,, AND as a bonus prize for you, if you can prove the compensatory mutations were purely Random, and increased fitness, within any barely negligible 4^100000 genome,,, I WILL totally free of Charge to you send a e-mail to Abel informing him that naturalistic/materialistic processes have been observed falsifying His null hypothesis! Is that a deal or what?bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
01:11 PM
1
01
11
PM
PDT
That means Spetner is wrong in claiming that all mutations cause the loss of information.
1. Is that really his claim? 2. What does he mean by "information" in the context of that statement?Mung
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
If I may, here is another argument why it is obviously false that mutations always decrease information: Several hereditary diseases are caused by single point mutations that lead to loss of function of an essential enzyme. A single back mutation could restore the function. Clearly such a mutation cannot be regarded as leading to a loss of information.jitsak
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
bornagain77:
...the mutations were certainly not generating information so much as they were recovering sub-optimal information.
In other words, you're saying that compensatory mutations regain the information that was lost by the initial mutations. That means Spetner is wrong in claiming that all mutations cause the loss of information. Are you going to admit that Spetner is wrong, or are there further knots you'd like to tie yourself into?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
12:55 PM
12
12
55
PM
PDT
Can you defend Spetner, or do you concede that he is wrong?
There is a third option you need to consider. Is Spetner's argument being portrayed accurately? He may not be using the term "information" in the way that you perceive him to be using it. I think you need to clear that up before you can declare victory.Mung
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
You know what guys I do stand behind Spetner's statement, and this is why: I was in a discussion with Dave Wisker and he, like you, was thoroughly enamored with "compensatory mutations" that had brought a compromised organism (C. elegans) back to a rough measure of equilibrium, with its parent stock, in a fairly short amount of time. Yet I maintained that the compensatory mutations were not "optimal" in regards to the optimality I hold the parent species to be (as the correct model of Genetic Entropy posits), and since I know this principle (Genetic Entropy) to be rigorously true, the mutations were certainly not generating information so much as they were recovering sub-optimal information. Moreover, the lightning pace of the recovery of the "compensatory mutations" actually clearly indicated a higher level of algorithmic information within the genome itself that was calculating the "recovery of information". Thus I held that the "compensatory mutations" are in fact not random mutations at all but that they are precisely calculated mutations, thus since the "mutations" can't be considered truly "random mutations" in the first place, as Darwinism requires them to be true, then Spetner's claim that random mutations lose information remains unscathed. I even suggested a line of testing to show that the principle of Genetic Entropy has been obeyed by the compensatory mutations after equilibrium was achieved: Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore Can we tweak the fitness test to discern this fine level of Genetic Entropy, I firmly believe it possible,,, but until the test is refined, the test on ancient bacteria, which show consistent conformation to Genetic Entropy, hold sway. Thus my claim to the overall principle of Abel's null hypothesis, which you are loathe to look at and try to dodge word games, stands unscathed as well.bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
11:49 AM
11
11
49
AM
PDT
BA77, please answer Scrofulous #62, do you defend Spetner or not? After all, you're the one qouting Spetner, aren't you?Cabal
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT
bornagain, You quoted Spetner:
The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume.
I showed (comment #32) and showed again (comment #49) why it is impossible for every mutation to lose information, as Spetner claims. Can you defend Spetner, or do you concede that he is wrong?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
09:24 AM
9
09
24
AM
PDT
Scoff at us, if you want to go round the rose bush with your focus on compensatory mutations go for it,,, but the plain fact is that evolution does not have any empiracal evidence whatsoever that mutations can produce even trivial functional information, much less the staggering levels we find in life,,, staggering levels that easily outclass man's ability to devise sophisticated code,,, If you want to believe that it can happen by accident be my guest,,, but do not sit here and insult us by insisting you are being coherent scientifically!bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
09:07 AM
9
09
07
AM
PDT
Hmm Scoff at us, you concede that you cannot falsify Abel's null hypothesis for functional information generation but then you turn around and say Spetner's claim that mutations do not produce (functional) information is falsified,,, and the discontinuity of logic is where?bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
bornagain77:
Scoff at us accuses me of changing the subject when I in fact directly addressed the generation of functional information with no less than reference to Abel’s peer reviewed article,,,
Except that we were talking about Spetner's claims, not Abel's. Can you defend Spetner, or do you concede that he is wrong?scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:55 AM
8
08
55
AM
PDT
Scoff at us accuses me of changing the subject when I in fact directly addressed the generation of functional information with no less than reference to Abel's peer reviewed article,,, Scoff in turn claims none of that is relevant, though it is central to the matter. He claims he has authority to judge in such manner because of his shell game he played in his post with "compensatory mutations". Well Scoff, I suggest you copy your post, have your post peer-reviewed, and then present it to the world at large instead of a handful of people on a fairly obscure blog, since you seem to be so impressed with its validity. Good Luck with all that. Myself I think you are delusional to think you have any merit whatsoever,,, but what do I know,, so get it published!bornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:49 AM
8
08
49
AM
PDT
I wrote:
Perhaps you could address the issue at hand. I’ve presented two refutations of your Spetner quotation. Can you defend him, or do you admit that he’s wrong?
bornagain77 changes the subject:
Scoff at us: only in your fertile imagination have you falsified the Null Hypothesis of Information Generation. This is science not a place where we warm the coggles of each other hearts with darwinan just so stories,,,
bornagain, StephenB has some advice for you:
The proper response is, “Thank you, “I stand corrected.”
scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT
Mung:
1. A nested hierarchy is not predicted by common descent.
A nested hierarchy is not predicted by ID's version of common descent, but it is predicted by Darwinian common descent. The fact that we do see a nested hierarchy is therefore damaging not only to creationism, but to ID in general.
2. The “molecular evidence” points to a nested hierarchy because that’s what the phylogenetic software is designed to do with it.
Evolutionary biologists do not accept the nested hierarchy merely because the software spits it out. They accept it because you get the same nested hierarchy (or a very similar one) when you feed in completely independent data sets. The odds against that happening by chance are astronomical.
3. The hierarchies you do get from the “molecular evidence” don’t agree.
Actually, they do agree with stunning precision. Nobody expects them to agree perfectly, because the reconstructions are probabilistic. However, the congruence between them is comparable to the precision of our best scientific theories, such as quantum electrodynamics.scrofulous
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:23 AM
8
08
23
AM
PDT
bornagain77 (#10) Thank you very much for the link to the interview, The Coding Found In DNA Surpasses Man's Ability to Code - Stephen Meyer . I agree that the similarity between human and chimp DNA has been over-stated, and I very much doubt that undirected processes alone are capable of explaining our distinctively human traits - especially our brains. That does not exclude common ancestry, of course, and I think there is good circumstantial evidence for that. Regarding the articles by Hugh Ross, I have to say that I think he is trying to shoe-horn human history into a period of less than 100,000 years. I also think he downplays the archeological evidence indicating that Neanderthal man was indeed capable of abstract thought. You might like to peruse these articles. The Humanity of Fossil Man by Glenn Morton. Summary: The activities in which fossil man engaged were quite human like. While they did not have the technological edge that we have, their behavior is much like that which we would perform under similar technological deficits. The evidence would seem to say that spiritual man extends at least as far back as 2.6 million years ago. Planning Ahead: Requirement for Moral Accountability by Glenn Morton. Conclusion: The demonstrable planning depth of the fossil hominids is clearly within the range of modern man and not within the range of the chimpanzee or other non-sentient beings. Clearly hominids as long ago as 1.5 million years ago, had the capability to have understood God's command not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To consider the members of the genus Homo as little more than bipedal animals, as some apologists have suggested, seriously underestimates their observed capabilities. The Compassionate Homo Erectus by Glenn Morton. Introduction: I have just finished reading a very interesting book by Alan Walker and Pat Shipman, The Wisdom of the Bones (New York: Alfred Knopf, 1996). This book raises several issues which bear on the thesis I have advocated, namely, that in order to account for the anthropological data, Adam must have been either Homo habilis or Homo erectus. Most Christians are loath to consider such a hypothesis, preferring to reserve the term "human" to those who look like us, i.e. anatomically modern humans. Unfortunately, this viewpoint ignores some of the most interesting details found in the fossil record. The record of care and compassion on the part of Homo erectus would seem to go beyond what can be expected of a mere ape. The case of a fossil known as KNM-ER 1808 exemplifies the care of a human, even if 1808 looked a lot different from us. The Ancient Record of Religion Among Archaic Hominids by Glenn Morton. Conclusion: Symbolic and ritual behavior is evident among the erectines prior to 100 kyr ago. Thus to claim that religion is only found among the anatomically modern humans is false in the face of the anthropological data. Unfortunately, too many Christian apologists selectively cite data that supports their position and ignores data that doesn't. In the case of ancient religion, this is a very widespread practice. The Flawed Anthropological Views of Reasons To Believe by Glenn Morton. Discusses an article by three Christian scientists from Reasons to Believe, arguing for a recent origin for humanity. Like many apologetical works, their article has several factual flaws which end up misrepresenting the anthropological data. It also has a tendency to cite only those articles and authors who support their position without informing their readers of alternative positions which are validly held and then without discussing any data which contradicts their position, they feel they have proven their position. Morton examines several of these flaws in his paper. Review of The Genesis Question by Hugh Ross. Excerpt: Concerning who is human and who isn't Ross writes:
"From a biblical perspective, painting, musical ability, burial of the dead, and use of tools could represent evidence of soulishness, not spirituality. Birds and primates, even elephants, have been observed to engage in such activities, which reflect mind and emotion, not spirit. "Although bipedal, tool-using, large-brained primates roamed Earth for hundreds of thousands (perhaps a million) years, religious relics date back only about eight thousand to twenty-four thousand years..."
Almost everything in this passage is erroneous. There is no evidence of any animal digging holes in the ground and burying their dead. Birds and primates certainly don't do it, Elephants, which Ross has cited elsewhere as engaging in burial behavior (Ross, 1991, p. 159-160) is simply a misreading of the data on elephants. Elephants OCCASIONALLY will throw leaves, branches etc on their dead, they also do it for humans they have just killed, and rhinocerii. (Douglas-Hamilton and Douglas-Hamilton, 1975, p. 237-238). Neither birds, primates nor elephants have been reported to manufacture a musical instrument for the purpose of making music. The oldest flute is from Libya and dates at least 80 kyr (Isaac, 1989, p. 71) and the oldest bone whistle of the kind that was made by Europeans into the last century dates at least 100 kyr (Stpanchuck 1993). Recent discoveries have revived the debate about how old religion is. It certainly appears to be much older than 24,000 years. ---------------------- Well, I hope you find something to think about there, bornagain77. To be fair, I should mention that Morton is hardly unbiased either. He has his own rather bizarre theory that human beings (Homo erectus) originated in the Mediterranean basin 5.5 million years ago, which was then dry. Around that time, water came rushing in from the Atlantic. That was the Flood, and it killed all but a tiny handful of human beings (Noah and his family). Thus the Flood was not global in scope, but it did kill all of humanity (except one family of eight), in Morton's interpretation. My impression is that just as Ross minimizes the evidence for Neanderthal rationality, Morton overstates his evidence for religion and art being practiced by Homo erectus, although he is certainly correct in saying that Homo erectus was a quantum leap ahead of chimps in terms of mental capabilities. I should add that to date, there is no evidence of Homo erectus going back more than 2 million years. For what it's worth, I think that the first species of human being to have been capable of abstract thought was most likely Homo heidelbergensis , who appeared 600,000 years ago and was ancestral to both Neanderthal man and Homo sapiens.vjtorley
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
Scoff at us: only in your fertile imagination have you falsified the Null Hypothesis of Information Generation. This is science not a place where we warm the coggles of each other hearts with darwinan just so stories,,,If you want that go to PZ's blog or Panda's Dumb, If you want to "prove" you have violated Genetic Entropy you must do so with empirics, This will require you passing the fitness test: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? – “The Fitness Test” – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp Then you must prove that the gain of functional information of the bacteria was greater than 140 functional bits of information: Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUeCgTN7pOo Then once you figure all that out you can write up a peer reviewed article showing how Abel's Null Hypothesis has been violated by naturalistic/materialistic processes The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/agbornagain77
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:12 AM
8
08
12
AM
PDT
Mr BA^77, Don't worry, the next "wink wink nudge nudge, we know who the Designer really is!" will restore my confidence that the ID community actually prefers bleating about the culture war to following the evidence where it leads. Why actually risk taking a position on HARs when pseudopredictions about the flagella still fill the pews? But i actually don't feel that way. i have a belief in my fellow man as written in my previous post. Sure the ID community has a mean (perhaps centered on a conflation of evolution and social implications today) but it also has variance. Even among the self selected, we can apply this statistical, population based Darwinian thinking (though it does not come naturally, we prefer to think of monolithic tribes (gee, why could that be?)). Mung's post represents that variance and it has to be respected and nurtured, not ignored.Nakashima
November 8, 2009
November
11
Nov
8
08
2009
08:00 AM
8
08
00
AM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8 9

Leave a Reply