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Nachman’s Paradox Defeats Darwinism and Dawkins’ Weasel

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The following is a crude 1-minute silent animation that I and members of the IDCS Network put together. God willing, there will be major improvements to the animation (including audio), but this is a start. Be sure to watch it in full screen mode to see the details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrIDjvpx7w4

The animation asserts that if harmful mutation rates are high enough, then there exists no form or mechanism of selection which can arrest genetic deterioration. Even if the harmful mutations do not reach population fixation, they can still damage the collective genome.

The animation starts off with healthy gingerbread men as parents. Each spawns ginger kids, and the red dots on the kids represent them having a mutation. The missing ginger limbs are suggestive of severe mutations, the more mild mutations are represented by ginger kids merely having a red dot and not severe phenotypic effects of their mutation. The exploding ginger kids represent Selection doing its thing and removing the less functionally fit from the population. The persistence of red dots on the ginger kids represents persistence of bad mutations despite any possible mechanism of selection.

Nobel Prize winner HJ Muller (of Muller’s ratchet fame) suggested that the human race can’t even cope with a harmful rate of 0.1 per new born. The actual rate has been speculated to be on the order of 100-300.

The animation uses a conservative harmful rate of 1 and argues (with some attempts at humor) that deterioration would thus be inevitable even with a harmful rate of 1 per new born.

I save discussion in the comment section the relevant but technical topics of truncation selection, sexual reproduction, recombination, synergistic epistasis, compensatory mutations, relief from Muller’s ratchet etc. These highly technical topics should be addressed and were not included in the animation. We can discuss them in the comment section.

However, the essential problem of mutation rates and deterioration is depicted by the animation. How this cartoon is illustrative of reality (when we consider the technicalities such as recombination, sexual reproduction, synergistic epistasis), can be discussed in the comment section.

In light of such problems Kondrashov posed the rhetorical question, Why have we not died 100 times over?. Kondrashov attempted to answer the question, but I don’t think the problem has been solved. The animation expresses my skepticism of the long term benefit of “synergistic epistasis”.

And if the conclusion symbolized by the animation is true, then on what grounds can we believe Darwinism is true?

The animation was inspired by a paper by Nachman and Crowell. Two years ago I wrote: Nachman’s U-Paradox. This animation helps illustrate the problem of Nachman’s paradox.

I recommend we should build a non-partitioned WEASEL to feature how Nachman’s paradox will trump Dawkins conclusions that somehow Darwin found the answer to appeance of design. One can get an idea of what it would look like given the animation.

[ Admins, I can’t seem to embed the video, can you embed it for me? I think embedded video requires higher privilege than my account has.]

Notes:

1. We could have done the drawings differently to emphasize the mutations are unique and novel and different for each ginger kid, but I save that work for later (including audio).

2. There is a refinement to the animation that is in order based on Nachman’s calculation of average removal rates of harmful mutations assumng trucation selection, “U”=3, and a conservative reproduction rate for humans, but I didn’t get around to it. That is yet another modification for future animations. We’ll need also some technical research on the matter.

Comments
jistak, Mom has mutation J1 Dad has mutation J2 Average number of harmfuls in parent generation : 1.0 I designate their children as Kid_1, Kid_2, etc. We assume each of their kids will have 1 new harmful. The kids may or may not inherit a harmful from mom or dad (basic Mendelian inheritance). To illustrate the idea, here is the list of harmfuls for each kid, where K1 is the novel muation for Kid_1, K2 is the novel harmful for Kid_2 etc. Kid_1: K1 Kid_2 : K2 J1 (from mom) Kid_3 : K3 Kid_4 : K4 Kid_5 : K5 J2 (from dad) Kid_6 : K6 Kid_7 : K7 Kid_8 : K8 J1 (from mom) J2 (from dad) let us tally the number of harmfuls for each kid Kid_1: 1 Kid_2 : 2 Kid_3 : 1 Kid_4 : 1 Kid_5 : 2 Kid_6 : 1 Kid_7 : 1 Kid_8 : 3 The average number of mutants in the kids is (1 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 3)/ 8 = 1.5 We can do the same for any other set of parents with the same initial condition that mom and dad start off with 1 mutation each. It is easy to see, that there will never be the case the children on average have less mutations than their parents. Thus by way of extension, under the premise of 1 new harmful per new born, it is easy to see that the children will on average have more mutations than the parents. If this is the case, do you think any value of fecundity or viability will change the fact that the children of parents will have on average more mutations than their parents? Please inform the reader the reasons you think there exists values of fecundity and viability which will ensure the average number of mutations in the children will be less than their parents on average. If you can't do this, you aren't doing much to refute the assertion that with respect to the final outcome, fecundity and viability are moot points given the premise of 1 new harmful per new born.scordova
November 15, 2009
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Sal in comment #40:
"Model: one new harmful mutation per new born human. All other details will generally be moot with respect to the final conclusion." [emphasis added]
Thank you, Sal. With this clarification, it is very clear that your qualitative model bears no relationship to either a rigorously defined mathematical moderl nor biological reality at all, for the reasons that I have outlined in comments 17, 42, and 45 (assuming they eventually appear). That is, until you have factored into your model the following: 1) diploidy (in humans) 2) Mendelian dominance 3) penetrance 4) the degree to which the mutations are deleterious 5) the degree to which the mutations are either selectively neutral or selectively beneficial among heterozygotes it cannot be reasonably applied to any actual biological system except haploid organisms such as bacteria (and certainly not to humans or any other diploid eukaryote), and then only if points 4 and 5 are addressed. I hope you will not take this as a criticism of yourself or your motives, only in the adequacy of your model and the reasoning upon which it is based. It is not meant in the former sense, as I hope you realize. P.S. This year is turning out to be an unusually good one for Finger Lakes wines. I hope you can drop by and join me in a winery tour the next time you are in Ithaca (or environs).Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
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Sorry: the last paragraph in my comment #42 should not have been a blockquote. It was my response to the second half of hummas man's comment #37. Furthermore, after reading the objections and defenses posted here, it seems to me that the video depicts only a qualitative (i.e. not quantitative) process that may or may not be valid, and which could only be applied to haploid organisms (such as bacteria) and which lacks any empirical verification. But I do worry about the long-term prospects for gingerbread men, especially considering the impending advent of the Christmas season. To quote Ferdinand the Duck,
"Christmas is carnage!"
...indeedAllen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
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My comments have finally appeared, almost 24 hours since they were posted. Interesting; as they appear in the order that existed when I posted them, rather than when they were approved, one would either have to know that they existed or start reading from the beginning of the comment thread to notice them. This means that most people who have been on this thread since the beginning have either not noticed them, or have conveniently not referred to them. IOW, delaying the posting of comments from the opposition serves to quite effectively remove them from the flow of the debate, even though they are eventually allowed out of moderation. Or have I made a false "design inference"? Let's find out: how long will this comment linger in moderation. I am posting it on Sunday 15 November 2009 at 13:00 EST.Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
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Let me get this straight. In the video of Richard Dawkins' WEASEL program, as we see the letters tick over on the display, we are watching the output of a computer model designed to illustrate that cumulative selection can reach a pre-selected target phrase faster than a purely random search. The gingerbread men video, on the other hand, is only an animation, not the output of a computer program, designed to illustrate the effect on a population of one harmful mutation per generation with no other factors being taken into account?Seversky
November 15, 2009
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I need to amend my previous comment slightly for more accuracy. The fourth sentence in the first paragraph should read: Some mutations are trivially harmful and won’t affect survivability in a single generation, like you are assuming. hummus man
November 15, 2009
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In comment #37 hummus man wrote:
"It seems oversimplified to the point of having little demonstrative value. As near as I can tell from your description, the presence of even one harmful mutation is enough to terminate the offspring. The assumption that any harmful mutation is fatal is unwarranted. Some mutations are trivially harmful and won’t affect survivability."
This was precisely the point of my comment on the genetics of diploidy and Mendelian dominance and its relevance to this discussion. However, the moderators have seen fit to disallow any discussion of these points, at least when posted by me.
"Second, you make no provision for beneficial mutations." Not only that, but the model under discussion also does not take into consideration mutations that are deleterious when homozygous, but beneficial when heterozygous. Not including this in the model renders its applicability completely nugatory, along with virtually all of the arguments based upon it.
Allen_MacNeill
November 15, 2009
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The power of the description is its simplicity.
It seems oversimplified to the point of having little demonstrative value. As near as I can tell from your description, the presence of even one harmful mutation is enough to terminate the offspring. The assumption that any harmful mutation is fatal is unwarranted. Some mutations are trivially harmful and won't affect survivability. Second, you make no provision for beneficial mutations. From this perspective, even Dawkins little program, WEASEL, is a better model as it allows both harmful and beneficial mutations and doesn't necessarily weed all beneficial mutations out of the gene pool (as demonstrated in the video of the program running, which shows some reversions.)hummus man
November 15, 2009
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As long as you refuse to provide the model details that I asked for, I tend to agree with Mung that there is no underlying model to the animations. The animations are what you want to be the truth. You can prove us wrong by showing your source code.
The model is not run on a computer or requires source code. The animation makes vizual a simple inference. If there is one new harmful mutation per new born human, deterioration will not be arrested. There exists no values of viability or fecundity or any concievable method of selection or drift that will arrest the long term deterioration. Do you disagree with that?
As long as you refuse to provide the model details that I asked for, I tend to agree with Mung that there is no underlying model to the animations. The animations are what you want to be the truth.
I've provided the details. Model: one new harmful mutation per new born human. All other details will generally be moot with respect to the final conclusion. The power of the description is its simplicity. I wanted an argument that won't be difficult to conceptualize or comprehend. You are now accusing me of not providing the details. Did I ever say the model of deterioration came from source code? No! Does it reflect reality? If anything it may understate the severity of reality. If the aniation is wrong, it may be wrong to the extent it is not showing enough deterioration. I put only one dot in the animation per new ginger kid, perhaps 50 or 100 or even 200 might have been more appropriate! And then you make a silly complaint that I put only one mutation when the minimum would have been zero. That's sophistry, jistak.
You can prove us wrong by showing your source code.
I told you there is no source code. The model is conceptual, and the animation makes vizual this conception.
If there is one new harmful mutation per new born human, deterioration will not be arrested.
Do you disagree with this simple obvious fact? I look forward to hearing whatever obfuscation, distortion, and twisted Darwinistic sophistry you will attempt to put forward to refute a very simple and logical inference. So far all you've put forward is sophistry. That suggestion of using zero as a minimum number of mutations. Now that was some of the best twisted sophistry I've seen on the net yet. Do you recommend using zero as the number mutations in all models of mutation that use a normal distribution? LOL.....scordova
November 15, 2009
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Graham, Here is a debate, on John Ankerberg, between Dr. Ross and Kent Hovind, who was probably the best Young Earth debater, prior to his arrest for tax evasion. Judge for yourself whether who is more consistent in their science and their theology. Kent Hovind vs Hugh Ross (Part 1, disc 1 of 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNuHuG517lIbornagain77
November 15, 2009
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Graham1, Well there are some serious problems with the physics of Young Earth Creationists. Their molecular biology is fairly strong as far as that goes, but there is some serious discrepancies, in the contorting they do to physics, in order to have the evidence fit their model. Which as far as I am concerned puts them in the same boat as evolutionists for letting their ideology drive their science!bornagain77
November 15, 2009
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Hugh Ross is an old-earth creationist, and has been scolded by Creation Ministries International. They have some serious theological problems with Hughs position, but it was all a bit deep for me.Graham1
November 15, 2009
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Kyrilluk, states "the fitness landscape of bacterias and even human tend to stabilize after a period." Not according to this evidence: Upon closer inspection, it seems Lenski's "cuddled" E. coli are actually headed for "genetic meltdown" instead of evolving into something better. New Work by Richard Lenski: Excerpt: Interestingly, in this paper they report that the E. coli strain became a “mutator.” That means it lost at least some of its ability to repair its DNA, so mutations are accumulating now at a rate about seventy times faster than normal. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/new_work_by_richard_lenski.html Since "selection pressure" is removed from humans as with the e-coli, the actual evidence suggests we are headind for meltdown sooner. Something of interest for graham1: Another interesting line of genetic evidence, which has recently come to light and which is extremely antagonistic to the materialist, is the Genetic Adam and Genetic Eve evidence, which is exactly what they call it in the scientific literature. This genetic evidence offers another line of strong support for the Biblical view of the sudden creation of man. Human Evolution - Genetic Adam And Eve - Hugh Ross - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cfHsFtw02g CHROMOSOME STUDY STUNS EVOLUTIONISTS Excerpt: To their great surprise, Dorit and his associates found no nucleotide differences at all in the non-recombinant part of the Y chromosomes of the 38 men. This non-variation suggests no evolution has occurred in male ancestry. http://www.reasons.org/interpreting-genesis/adam-and-eve/chromosome-study-stuns-evolutionistsbornagain77
November 15, 2009
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Hi Scordova, I think that a more realistic model would have included e.coli bacteries or other simple organisms of this kind. According to Plotkin, the fitness landscape of bacterias and even human tend to stabilize after a period. Please see: "Speed Limit To The Pace Of Evolution ".Kyrilluk
November 15, 2009
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Salvador,
And I pointed out short of 100% removal efficiency (totally unrealistic given there are numerous genetic diseases that have persisted for centuries), the deterioration will happen. The point is moot with the final outcome.
Yes, there are numerous recessive diseases that are shielded while rare. Classic population genetics predicts a low equilibrium frequency. As long as you refuse to provide the model details that I asked for, I tend to agree with Mung that there is no underlying model to the animations. The animations are what you want to be the truth. You can prove us wrong by showing your source code.jitsak
November 15, 2009
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Sal, do you think the harmful mutation rate has increased since Adam and Eve, or remained constant? Now that is priceless.Graham1
November 15, 2009
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From Wiki:
In this case illustrated above with table and graphic, Joseph Felsenstein`s methods for making coalescense statistically independent comparisons using 21 familiar markers haplotypes shows a well shaped, defined, and geographically distributed Cohanim Tree. Despite two thousand years since the destruction of the Second Temple, and the spread of the Jewish population into the Diaspora, the deadly Crusades, Cohanim families managed to survive the persecutions and kept their lineages intact, imprinted in their Y Chromosomes as a unique and common signature. This signature, distinctly reflecting the Cohanim ancestral haplotype, visibly identifies today and recognizes these 21 Jewish priest families, directly related to one common Cohanim ancestor who lived 2400 +-300 years ago, around the times of Zadok, the High Priest that anointed King David. This is because both Cohanim Jews, Askenazi and Sephardi, for thousands of years preserved their genealogical lineages since the Temple period. Of course they did not think in terms of the DNA, however, they have faithfully followed Cohanim Jewish tradition until present day. As a result this is exactly what the haplotype tree shows. Families which haplotypes sit on the tree next to each other on flat branches live (or lived) in close territories and more likely share a recent common ancestor, as the tree shows. The Cohanim Tree places the correspondent families in the branches based on respective mutations. DNA results confirmed, by positioning the families in their respective places of origin, that the geographical location is correctly connected in genetics according to the Jewish tradition and records found in each one of these 21 different Cohanim families.
Which suggest to me, there has been a strong cultural tradition to maintain accurate genealogical records for a long time. The research on the Cohen haplotype was able to resolve a common ancestor to within 2400 years ago. What will we find for the common ancestor of all men as our mutation rate info gets better resolution. :-) All this data should also tell us if the neutralist crticism of selectionism is correct, namely, natural selection doesn't do much to purify out new mutations and the majority of molecular evolution is not subject to selection. If the majority of molecular evolution is not subject to selection, then it is presumptuous to argue Darwinism was the principal mechanism that created the features of man.scordova
November 15, 2009
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Sal, do you think the harmful mutation rate has increased since Adam and Eve, or remained constant?
We can't establish scientifically that there was indeed an Adam and Eve. I personally think their was, but it is a personal opinion, thus anything I say on the matter is properly a personal opinion, and not a direct scientific inference. That said, I think the mutation rate is higher by some unknown factor based on the supposition we live in an environment that will likely cause more mutations (more chemicals, UV light, harsher environment). The rate is determined somewhat by quantum effects which cause copy errors at the molecular level.
For example, did each of their children have, on average, 100 harmful mutations? And they passed those on to their children, who also had 100 new harmful mutations, etc., down to the time of Noah and his family, where many of these likely became fixed in the population. And then the process again continued.
Yes the harmfuls would accumulate with some removal. Severe diseases would obviously be removed, but lesser ones can persist, and there have been genetic maladies that have indeed persisted. Many of the maladies are mild (like myopia). Many of the harmful are hidden as recessive traits of discovered in the event of inbreeding. With respect to the question of Noah (if indeed he was real, and that is not an established fact), we could in principal investigate the Table of Nations in Genesis chapter 10 and 11. This actually describes the structure of a detectable phylogeny, imho. This would be especially feasible to verify because Y-chromosomes are passed only from father to son. Along similar lines, there is published in secular journals research on the Cohen Haplotype, which scientists suspect describes the house of Levi. We could even, more easily take say Arabs and Jews. Their Y-chromosomes ought to align with the phylogeny suggested of Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac. The Y-chromosome phylogeny should also be broken into 3 discrete lineages for Noah's 3 sons. In turn, the table of nations should describe the number of branches on the next level of hierarchy, so on and so forth. This research may become feasible as Solexa and Illumina become more in use and bio-informatic systems become cheaper. The genetic catalogs should continue to rise mainly because of the importance to modern medicine. Furthermore, Solexa technology gives us reasonable mutation rates. If these mutation rates were about the same to the time of Noah, we could, in principle, not only construct a phylogeny, but even estimate maybe when the patriarchs were alive. A phylogeny that aligns with the Table of Nations and the genealogies (such as suggested by th one in Luke chapter 3) would lend credence to the idea that the tedious listing of names was indeed a real family tree and not some fabrication. But I stress again, these are bordering on religious topics and creationism, not really Intelligent Design. For sure, these topics are of interest to me, but I stress there should be a demarcation between speculation and more tangible inferences. The subject of genetic deterioration is testable empirically. The existence of Noah, Adam, Eve is a matter of speculation and circumstantial evidence. PS See: Y-chromosomal Aaron and Y-chromosomal Levi regarding the Cohen Haplotype.scordova
November 15, 2009
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Since I was not familiar with the abbrevation "IDCS" I searched "Thelic Thoughts" for it. There it has been used with different meanings. I wonder which one Salvador refers to and if he thinks ID theory will benefit from any of these definitions especially in the light of the DOver case: 1. Intelligent Design Creation Science 2. Intelligent Design Creationists 3. Intelligent Design Criticsosteonectin
November 14, 2009
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bornagain77 at #5 mentions the detrimental results of first cousins marrying. In many Muslim societies girls are often married to their uncles via arranged marriages. I wonder if, likewise, there are any inherited harmful consequences because of this?Davem
November 14, 2009
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I'm pretty sure the mutation rate must have been less before the flood and then picked up, judging by the rather constant life expectancy of about 900 years before it, and the several generations in which it steadily dwindled afterward.avocationist
November 14, 2009
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You do realize that the human gene complement is 2X, and that we reproduce sexually? Maybe you could try the video where not all the gingerbread people have the deleterious mutation to begin with. It would then be a really nice example of natural selection. The video essentially shows that a deleterious, penetrent, dominant disorder will be strongly selected against. Which is predicted by evolution, and seen in human disease. Most dominant disorders aren't fully penetrent, or affect the individual after the age of reproduction. In contrast, non-penetrence, recessive genes, etc. explain how a deleterious trait could persist.RobertC
November 14, 2009
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Sal, do you think the harmful mutation rate has increased since Adam and Eve, or remained constant? For example, did each of their children have, on average, 100 harmful mutations? And they passed those on to their children, who also had 100 new harmful mutations, etc., down to the time of Noah and his family, where many of these likely became fixed in the population. And then the process again continued.Mung
November 14, 2009
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Sternberg's hypothesis is presented here: How The Junk DNA Hypothesis Has Changed Since 1980
, it seems that 90% or more of chromosomal DNA has some kind of specific developmental function, given the available data.
If the human mutation rate is 100 to 200 (as bornagain77 quoted), then Sternberg's hypothesis would suggest that about 100 new harmfuls is a reasonable figure if changes to a nucleotide would result in functional compromise most of the time.scordova
November 14, 2009
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jistak: I am not so sure about that. On any given locus, recombination creates offspring without mutations on that locus if both parents carry a single mutation on that locus. Then the spread of the mutation depends on the selective advantage of that offspring compared to offspring that do inherit the mutation.
I alluded to that with this comment:
It is possible for Dad to have a bad mutation and Mom to have a bad mutation and because of basic laws of inheritance, some of the kids may not have that mutation.
But I pointed out, with more mutations this becomes problematic and with 3, human females would be having to give birth to 40 offspring AND truncation selection would have to be applied. In any case, the purifying selection will not work with 100% efficiency (100% relative to the rate number of new mutations being added, not 100% with respect to preventing fixation or even elimination from the population). As I suggested, we can even assume, for the sake of argument that any specific harmful mutation will eventually be removed given enough time. The issues is whether it can remove it at the same rate as they are being introduced (that is what 100% efficiency means in this context). This is analogous to a waiting line that gets longer and longer over time. The backlog just keeps increasing even though in principal we could speculate any given individual, given enough time gets serviced.scordova
November 14, 2009
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Fair enough, if the mean is sufficiently high (in this case 100 mutations per offspring), a normal distribution is a good approximation to a poisson distribution. What strikes me as odd, though, is that you would choose 1 as the minimum number of mutations, rather than the more obvious choice of zero.
No. If 100 is the mean. 85 would be giving the benefit of the doubt Darwinist case, 70 would be generous, 50 would be insanely generous, etc. The way to frame the question is why I didn't pick a higher number than one. The more obvious choice is not zero, but some number higher than one.scordova
November 14, 2009
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Jistak objects: They are not moot points at all. The harmfulness of mutations determines how efficiently selection can remove them from the population.
And I pointed out short of 100% removal efficiency (totally unrealistic given there are numerous genetic diseases that have persisted for centuries), the deterioration will happen. The point is moot with the final outcome. Or do you claim selection will can purify harmfuls at a rate greater than 100% on average. :-) PS see next few comments on what I mean by 100% efficiency. there is a subtlety there.scordova
November 14, 2009
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Hi Scordova, sorry to interupt, but I think you may have missed my question at #4 Have you heard any word on the progress of Dr. Sanford’s work down in the “salt mines” i.e. ancient bacteria?
Profuse apologies. I have not asked him about this work. Nothing to report yet.scordova
November 14, 2009
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Hi Scordova, sorry to interupt, but I think you may have missed my question at #4 Have you heard any word on the progress of Dr. Sanford’s work down in the “salt mines” i.e. ancient bacteria?bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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It’s great to see some modeling being done here, and congrats with the nice animation.
Unfortunately, it's not a model, it's an animation. There is no underlying model for the animation.Mung
November 14, 2009
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