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Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information

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The following is a guest post by Aurelio Smith. I have invited him to present a critique of Active Information in a more prominent place at UD so we can have a good discussion of Active Information’s strengths and weaknesses. The rest of this post is his.


My thanks to johnnyb for offering to host a post from me on the subject of ‘active information’. I’ve been following the fortunes of the ID community for some time now and I was a little disappointed that the recent publications of the ‘triumvirate’ of William Dembski, Robert Marks and their newly promoted postgrad Doctor Ewert have received less attention here than their efforts deserve. The thrust of their assault on Darwinian evolution has developed from earlier concepts such as “complex specified information” and “conservation of information” and they now introduce “Algorithmic Specified Complexity” and “Active information”.

Some history.

William Demsbski gives an account of the birth of his ideas here:

…in the summer of 1992, I had spent several weeks with Stephen Meyer and Paul Nelson in Cambridge, England, to explore how to revive design as a scientific concept, using it to elucidate biological origins as well as to refute the dominant materialistic understanding of evolution (i.e., neo-Darwinism). Such a project, if it were to be successful, clearly could not merely give a facelift to existing design arguments for the existence of God. Indeed, any designer that would be the conclusion of such statistical reasoning would have to be far more generic than any God of ethical monotheism. At the same time, the actual logic for dealing with small probabilities seemed less to directly implicate a designing intelligence than to sweep the field clear of chance alternatives. The underlying logic therefore was not a direct argument for design but an indirect circumstantial argument that implicated design by eliminating what it was not.*

[*my emphasis]

Dembski published The Design Inference in 1998, where the ‘explanatory filter’ was proposed as a tool to separate ‘design’ from ‘law’ and ‘chance’. The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. Wesley Elsberry’s review points out the failure to include unknown causation as a possibility. Dembski acknowledges the problem in a comment in a thread at Uncommon Descent – Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson

I wish I had time to respond adequately to this thread, but I’ve got a book to deliver to my publisher January 1 — so I don’t. Briefly: (1) I’ve pretty much dispensed with the EF. It suggests that chance, necessity, and design are mutually exclusive. They are not. Straight CSI [Complex Specified Information] is clearer as a criterion for design detection.* (2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger. (3) As for the applicability of CSI to biology, see the chapter on “assertibility” in my book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION. (4) For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com. (5) There’s a paper Bob Marks and I just got accepted which shows that evolutionary search can never escape the CSI problem (even if, say, the flagellum was built by a selection-variation mechanism, CSI still had to be fed in).

[*my emphasis]

Active information.

Dr Dembski has posted some background to his association with Professor Robert Marks and The Evolutionary Informatics Lab which has resulted in the publication of several papers with active information as an important theme. A notable collaborator is Winston Ewert Ph D, whose master’s thesis was entitled: Studies of Active Information in Search where, in chapter four, he criticizes Lenski et al., 2003, saying:

[quoting Lenski et al., 2003]“Some readers might suggest that we stacked the deck by studying the evolution of a complex feature that could be built on simpler functions that were also useful.”

This, indeed, is what the writers of Avida software do when using stair step active information.

What is active information?

In A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search, Dembski, Ewert and Marks (henceforth DEM) give their definition of “active information” as follows:

In comparing null and alternative searches, it is convenient to convert probabilities to information measures (note that all logarithms in the sequel are to the base 2). We therefore define the endogenous information IΩ as –log(p), which measures the inherent difficulty of a blind or null search in exploring the underlying search space Ω to locate the target T. We then define the exogenous information IS as –log(q), which measures the difficulty of the alternative search S in locating the target T. And finally, we define the active information I+ as the difference between the endogenous and exogenous information: I+ = IΩ – IS = log(q/p). Active information therefore measures the information that must be added (hence the plus sign in I+) on top of a null search to raise an alternative search’s probability of success by a factor of q/p. [excuse formatting errors in mathematical symbols]

They conclude with an analogy from the financial world, saying:

Conservation of information shows that active information, like money, obeys strict accounting principles. Just as banks need money to power their financial instruments, so searches need active information to power their success in locating targets. Moreover, just as banks must balance their books, so searches, in successfully locating targets, must balance their books — they cannot output more information than was inputted.

In an article at the Pandas Thumb website Professor Joe Felsenstein, in collaboration with Tom English, presents some criticism of of the quoted DEM paper. Felsenstein helpfully posts an “abstract in the comments, saying:

Dembski, Ewert and Marks have presented a general theory of “search” that has a theorem that, averaged over all possible searches, one does not do better than uninformed guessing (choosing a genotype at random, say). The implication is that one needs a Designer who chooses a search in order to have an evolutionary process that succeeds in finding genotypes of improved fitness. But there are two things wrong with that argument: 1. Their space of “searches” includes all sorts of crazy searches that do not prefer to go to genotypes of higher fitness – most of them may prefer genotypes of lower fitness or just ignore fitness when searching. Once you require that there be genotypes that have different fitnesses, so that fitness affects their reproduction, you have narrowed down their “searches” to ones that have a much higher probability of finding genotypes that have higher fitness. 2. In addition, the laws of physics will mandate that small changes in genotype will usually not cause huge changes in fitness. This is true because the weakness of action at a distance means that many genes will not interact strongly with each other. So the fitness surface is smoother than a random assignment of fitnesses to genotypes. That makes it much more possible to find genotypes that have higher fitness. Taking these two considerations into account – that an evolutionary search has genotypes whose fitnesses affect their reproduction, and that the laws of physics militate against strong interactions being typical – we see that Dembski, Ewert, and Marks’s argument does not show that Design is needed to have an evolutionary system that can improve fitness.

I note that there is an acknowledgement in the DEM paper as follows:

The authors thank Peter Olofsson and Dietmar Eben for helpful feedback on previous work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, feedback that has found its way into this paper.

This is the same Professor Olofsson referred to in the “Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson thread mentioned above. Dietmar Eben has blogged extensively on DEM’s ideas.

I’m not qualified to criticize the mathematics but I see no need to doubt that it is sound. However what I do query is whether the model is relevant to biology. The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”. There is the source of the active information.

I was recently made aware that this classic paper by Sewall Wright, The Roles of Mutation, Inbeeding, Crossbreeding and Selection in Evolution, is available online. Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

Perhaps, in conclusion, I should emphasize two things. Firstly, I am utterly opposed to censorship and suppression. I strongly support the free exchange of ideas and information. I strongly support any genuine efforts to develop “Intelligent Design” into a formal scientific endeavor. Jon Bartlett sees advantages in the field of computer science and I say good luck to him. Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt. Had Sewall Wright been developing his ideas in the computer age, his laboriously hand-crafted diagrams would, I’m sure, have evolved (deliberate pun) into exquisite computer models.

References

History: Wm Dembski 1998 the Design inference, explanatory filter ( Elsberry criticizes the book for using a definition of “design” as what is left over after chance and regularity have been eliminated)

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

Elsberry & Shallit

Theft over Toil John S. Wilkins, Wesley R. Elsberry 2001

Computational capacity of the universe Seth Lloyd 2001

Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and
Dembski’s “Complex Specified Information”
Elsberry and Shallit 2003

Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by William A. Dembski August 15, 2005

Evaluation of Evolutionary and Genetic
Optimizers: No Free Lunch
Tom English 1996

Conservation of Information Made Simple William Dembski 2012

…evolutionary biologists possessing the mathematical tools to understand search are typically happy to characterize evolution as a form of search. And even those with minimal knowledge of the relevant mathematics fall into this way of thinking.

Take Brown University’s Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist whose knowledge of the relevant mathematics I don’t know. Miller, in attempting to refute ID, regularly describes examples of experiments in which some biological structure is knocked out along with its function, and then, under selection pressure, a replacement structure is evolved that recovers the function. What makes these experiments significant for Miller is that they are readily replicable, which means that the same systems with the same knockouts will undergo the same recovery under the same suitable selection regime. In our characterization of search, we would say the search for structures that recover function in these knockout experiments achieves success with high probability.

Suppose, to be a bit more concrete, we imagine a bacterium capable of producing a particular enzyme that allows it to live off a given food source. Next, we disable that enzyme, not by removing it entirely but by, say, changing a DNA base in the coding region for this protein, thus changing an amino acid in the enzyme and thereby drastically lowering its catalytic activity in processing the food source. Granted, this example is a bit stylized, but it captures the type of experiment Miller regularly cites.

So, taking these modified bacteria, the experimenter now subjects them to a selection regime that starts them off on a food source for which they don’t need the enzyme that’s been disabled. But, over time, they get more and more of the food source for which the enzyme is required and less and less of other food sources for which they don’t need it. Under such a selection regime, the bacterium must either evolve the capability of processing the food for which previously it needed the enzyme, presumably by mutating the damaged DNA that originally coded for the enzyme and thereby recovering the enzyme, or starve and die.

So where’s the problem for evolution in all this? Granted, the selection regime here is a case of artificial selection — the experimenter is carefully controlling the bacterial environment, deciding which bacteria get to live or die*. [(* My emphasis) Not correct – confirmed by Richard Lenski – AF] But nature seems quite capable of doing something similar. Nylon, for instance, is a synthetic product invented by humans in 1935, and thus was absent from bacteria for most of their history. And yet, bacteria have evolved the ability to digest nylon by developing the enzyme nylonase. Yes, these bacteria are gaining new information, but they are gaining it from their environments, environments that, presumably, need not be subject to intelligent guidance. No experimenter, applying artificial selection, for instance, set out to produce nylonase.

To see that there remains a problem for evolution in all this, we need to look more closely at the connection between search and information and how these concepts figure into a precise formulation of conservation of information. Once we have done this, we’ll return to the Miller-type examples of evolution to see why evolutionary processes do not, and indeed cannot, create the information needed by biological systems. Most biological configuration spaces are so large and the targets they present are so small that blind search (which ultimately, on materialist principles, reduces to the jostling of life’s molecular constituents through forces of attraction and repulsion) is highly unlikely to succeed. As a consequence, some alternative search is required if the target is to stand a reasonable chance of being located. Evolutionary processes driven by natural selection constitute such an alternative search. Yes, they do a much better job than blind search. But at a cost — an informational cost, a cost these processes have to pay but which they are incapable of earning on their own.

Meaningful Information

Meaningful Information Paul Vit´anyi 2004

The question arises whether it is possible to separate meaningful information from accidental information, and if so, how.

Evolutionary Informatics Publications

Conservation of Information in Relative Search Performance Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Algorithmic Specified Complexity
in the Game of Life
Ewert, Dembski, Marks 2015

Digital Irreducible Complexity: A Survey of Irreducible
Complexity in Computer Simulations
Ewert 2014

On the Improbability of Algorithmic Specified
Complexity
Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Actually, in my talk, I work off of three papers, the last of which Felsenstein fails to cite and which is the most general, avoiding the assumption of uniform probability to which Felsenstein objects.

EN&V

Dietmar Eben’s blog

Dieb review “cost of successful search

Conservation of Information in Search:
Measuring the Cost of Success
Dembski, Marks 2009

The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of
Higher Level Search
Dembski, Marks 2009

Has Natural Selection Been Refuted? The Arguments of William Dembski Joe Felsenstein 2007

In conclusion
Dembski argues that there are theorems that prevent natural selection from explaining the adaptations that we see. His arguments do not work. There can be no theorem saying that adaptive information is conserved and cannot be increased by natural selection. Gene frequency changes caused by natural selection can be shown to generate specified information. The No Free Lunch theorem is mathematically correct, but it is inapplicable to real biology. Specified information, including complex specified information, can be generated by natural selection without needing to be “smuggled in”. When we see adaptation, we are not looking at positive evidence of billions and trillions of interventions by a designer. Dembski has not refuted natural selection as an explanation for adaptation.

ON DEMBSKI’S LAW OF CONSERVATION OF INFORMATION Erik Tellgren 2002

Comments
And artefacts don't, generally, self-replicate, so are incapable of forming an evolving population.Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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So in your view an artifact that is better attuned to the environment will more likely appear to be designed?
Living things are not artefacts, and they don't naturally occur in environments to which they are not adapted. Salmon don't live in trees, and giraffes don't live in Greenland.Don Pedro
April 24, 2015
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And we are still waiting for Kairosfocus to define FSCO/I and clarify how it is related to "active information". A computable metric would be better than an intuitive criterion such as "Methinks it's like a fishing reel."Don Pedro
April 24, 2015
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Don Pedro says, The sampling of alleles from generation to generation is biassed in favour of those that produce phenotypes better attuned to the environment. This is what produces an appearance of design. I say, So in your view an artifact that is better attuned to the environment will more likely appear to be designed? I'm not sure how that conforms with to our normal everyday design detection. I am much more apt to infer design in an object that inexplicably bucks the environment. Think square corners verses smooth ones. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 24, 2015
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The thread is about the Active Information concept proposed by Ewert, Dembski and Marks. Those three authors do not dispute that evolution can result in design. What they argue is that it does so by means of Active Information. Would one of the UD regulars like to defend this argument?Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Piotr- Can you follow along? The OP says the environment is the designer. You responded to me asking how to test that claim.
Adaptive change is the answer.
The environment did not design genomes.
Who said it did? The environment doesn't act on the genome directly. It only "informs" the genetic pool which alleles survive better (because the phenotypes they produce have some advantageous traits). A DNA sequence responsible for those traits does not even look "designed" by itself. Is this one designed or random, and how do you know? ACATCCACACTTTGGTGAATCGAAGCGCGGCATCAGGGTTTCCTTTTGGATACCTGATAC
Yours doesn’t have a mechanism capable of explaining eukaryotes. It can’t even explain biological reproduction.
There are other factors beside selection. The usual sources of variation are unpredictable, random events. An endosymbiotic relationship may have started by chance. Mutations happen by chance. A new environmental niche may arise by chance. A competing species may be wiped out by an accidental catastrophe. However, if you have a given environment and a given genetic pool, what happens to the alleles in the pool is at least partly dictated by the environment. The sampling of alleles from generation to generation is biassed in favour of those that produce phenotypes better attuned to the environment. This is what produces an appearance of design.Don Pedro
April 24, 2015
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Piotr- Can you follow along? The OP says the environment is the designer. You responded to me asking how to test that claim. The environment did not design genomes. Yours doesn't have a mechanism capable of explaining eukaryotes. It can't even explain biological reproduction.Joe
April 24, 2015
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Joe:
And after you do that please model the environment designing eukaryotes given populations of prokaryotes.
Who said eukaryotes were "designed"? Successful genomes absorb information ("how to survive and replicate") from the environment just because the environment discriminates between viable and non-viable phenotypes. However, the environment does not generate the variability it acts on. Genomic changes don't happen because there is a selective pressure. It's adaptations, not mutations (sensu lato) that are "designed".Don Pedro
April 24, 2015
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Chapter IV of prominent geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti's book Why is a Fly Not a Horse? is titled "Wobbling Stability". In that chapter he discusses what I have been talking about in other threads- that populations oscillate. The following is what he has to say which is based on thorough scientific investigation:
Sexuality has brought joy to the world, to the world of the wild beasts, and to the world of flowers, but it has brought an end to evolution. In the lineages of living beings, whenever absent-minded Venus has taken the upper hand, forms have forgotten to make progress. It is only the husbandman that has improved strains, and he has done so by bullying, enslaving, and segregating. All these methods, of course, have made for sad, alienated animals, but they have not resulted in new species. Left to themselves, domesticated breeds would either die out or revert to the wild state—scarcely a commendable model for nature’s progress.
(snip a few paragraphs on peppered moths)
Natural Selection, which indeed occurs in nature (as Bishop Wilberforce, too, was perfectly aware), mainly has the effect of maintaining equilibrium and stability. It eliminates all those that dare depart from the type—the eccentrics and the adventurers and the marginal sort. It is ever adjusting populations, but it does so in each case by bringing them back to the norm. We read in the textbooks that, when environmental conditions change, the selection process may produce a shift in a population’s mean values, by a process known as adaptation. If the climate turns very cold, the cold-adapted beings are favored relative to others.; if it becomes windy, the wind blows away those that are most exposed; if an illness breaks out, those in questionable health will be lost. But all these artful guiles serve their purpose only until the clouds blow away. The species, in fact, is an organic entity, a typical form, which may deviate only to return to the furrow of its destiny; it may wander from the band only to find its proper place by returning to the gang.
Everything that disassembles, upsets proportions or becomes distorted in any way is sooner or later brought back to the type. There has been a tendency to confuse fleeting adjustments with grand destinies, minor shrewdness with signs of the times.
It is true that species may lose something on the way—the mole its eyes, say, and the succulent plant its leaves, never to recover them again. But here we are dealing with unhappy, mutilated species, at the margins of their area of distribution—the extreme and the specialized. These are species with no future; they are not pioneers, but prisoners in nature’s penitentiary.
The point being, that IF it were left to direct scientific observations, evolutionism fails miserably and all that is left is wishful thinking supported by speculation. Joe
April 24, 2015
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Wesley Elsberry’s review points out the failure to include unknown causation as a possibility.
So what? science goes with what we know, not with what we don't know. The design inference, as with ALL scientific inferences, is based on our current knowledge and ability to test. And yes that also means that the science of tomorrow can overturn the science of today. And guess what? It happens. If you don't like the design inference the power is in your hands to refute it. That is due to the explanatory filter that Wesley doesn't seem to understand follows the mandate of science, ie Newton's four rules of scientific investigation, also known as parsimony.Joe
April 24, 2015
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Well, what I mean is: if the environment is doing the designing, as you say (and I agree) then it seems to me it is doing it by possessing a very simple property, that of scale-free variance. And so to infer from this a designing MIND, the Ewert, Dembski and Marks would have to make the argument that that scale-free variance is an otherwise improbable property of a non-designed universe. Which I don't see them doing.Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Please test your concept that the environment designs, as opposed to just providing the triggers for "built-in responses to environmental cues"? And after you do that please model the environment designing eukaryotes given populations of prokaryotes. (Of course it would be nice to see the environment producing replicators that can change)Joe
April 24, 2015
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If any of the administrators are reading this, could you unblock my regular account ("Piotr") and allow me to post under my real name? I'd appreciate it if I could take part in the discussion as myself. Just between us grown-ups, I don't think I was guilty of any gross misdemeanour, and it sucks to remain banned for weeks only because somebody happened to be in a censoring mood.Don Pedro
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth:
Do you agree that if they want to make the argument that this implies a Designer, they need to make the argument that it is somehow improbable that an environment would have the properties required to generate a solution to the problem of breeding in it?
Why don't you and yours just ante up and show they are wrong by demonstrating the power of unguided evolution? You can criticize them all you want but until you actually have something it just looks like childish whining.Joe
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth:
Aurelio, I entirely agree that the “Active Information” that Ewert, Dembski and Marks’ identify as being intrinsic to the successful “search” for a “solution” in evolutionary systems is indeed intrinsic to the environment.
Stop equivocating already. Intelligent Design is not anti-evolution so saying "evolutionary systems" is misleading. There are many different species occupying the same ecosystems, ie have the same environmental pressures. So what does "intrinsic to the environment" mean? There aren't any fish living in trees? Is that it, stuff like that?Joe
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth:
Well, in the context of biological populations of sexually reproducing organisms, the process also include the generation of new alleles. More generally, it includes the process of variance generation. And the frequencies of those variants will indeed change as a result of changing environmental pressures (as well as drift).
You just described baraminology.
Which means it is far from useless! As long as the rate of variance-generation is fast enough to keep pace with the rate of environmental change, there is nothing to stop a population adapting to long-term environmental change, as opposed to being stuck “wobbling” round a fixed point.
It is useless wrt universal common descent.
It isn’t a very different process.
One is an active search seeking a pre-defined goal. The other isn't a search and doesn't have any goals. Very different processes.
It has exactly the same core features: a population of self-replicators that reproduce with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment.
So seeing that all animals have the same core features they are all the same?
The only difference is that in human-designed systems that are designed to solve a specific problem,
That is a huge difference. HUGE. That makes all of the difference in the world. Natural selection could never even produce the different breeds of dogs. Whatever works stays. And whatever works can be any number of different things- taller, shorter, faster, slower, stinky, fat, skinny- you name it. If it doesn't get eliminated it gets to stay around.
The same process happens in nature, only nobody needs the antenna apart from the evolving critters themselves!
The entire debate is if organisms are designed to evolve or evolve by means of differing accumulations of genetic accidents, mistakes and errors. Look you don't have a mechanism capable of getting beyond populations of prokaryotes and that is given starting populations of prokaryotes. And you can't account for basic biological reproduction. So yours is a non-starter.Joe
April 24, 2015
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So: back on topic! Aurelio, I entirely agree that the "Active Information" that Ewert, Dembski and Marks' identify as being intrinsic to the successful "search" for a "solution" in evolutionary systems is indeed intrinsic to the environment. Do you agree that if they want to make the argument that this implies a Designer, they need to make the argument that it is somehow improbable that an environment would have the properties required to generate a solution to the problem of breeding in it?Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Cyclical means wobbling around a fixed mean. In terms of the environment, there are regular cycles, such as the diurnal cycle, and chaotic cycles, such as climate, not to mention contingent events. Silver Asiatic: Beaks would sometimes grow longer and other times shorter. And that’s what we see. Yes, that's exactly what is expected of natural selection. In the case of Darwin's finches, it led to sufficient changes to result in over a dozen species, some that forage on the ground, others in trees, some feeding on cactus, others on insects, and one subspecies, the Vampire finch, even feeding on blood.Zachriel
April 24, 2015
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Zachriel: The environment [is] not random, but primarily cyclical. EL: If the environment makes a steady move in a particular direction (as may happen with climate change for instance) then populations will either go extinct or adapt along that same trajectory.
Cyclical means wobbling around a fixed mean. There have been warmer periods and cooler periods. If populations adapt to that pattern then the adaptations would wobble around a mean. Beaks would sometimes grow longer and other times shorter. And that's what we see. It illustrates Joe's point @ 53. That's not a mechanism that explains life's diversity.Silver Asiatic
April 24, 2015
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Zachriel: yes, that is a good point, but kinda small-print stuff in this context! As you said, "irrelevant". In general, I take Kairofocus's point that if we are going to discuss evolution (as opposed to OoL) we are effectively (as Ewert, Dembski and Marks do) assuming that the self-replicators exist. A discussion on how to get from non-self-replicators to proto/semi/partial/occasional/inaccurate self-replicators is a different discussion! But yes, I do take your point. My hunch is that we will have OoL licked within my lifetime! Or at least demonstrated that you can, under lab conditions, go from some kind soup of polymers and lipids to some kind of protocell population with quasi-self-replicating properties and capable of evolution. Or maybe we are there already - I've been out of the loop!Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Joe:
Which is why evolution is useless and doesn’t do anything beyond changing allele frequencies.
Well, in the context of biological populations of sexually reproducing organisms, the process also include the generation of new alleles. More generally, it includes the process of variance generation. And the frequencies of those variants will indeed change as a result of changing environmental pressures (as well as drift). Which means it is far from useless! As long as the rate of variance-generation is fast enough to keep pace with the rate of environmental change, there is nothing to stop a population adapting to long-term environmental change, as opposed to being stuck "wobbling" round a fixed point.
They use the exact same process as evolution to solve (often) a human-defined problem. That is false and demonstrates ignorance of evolution. How can it be the same process when it is obviously a very different process?
It isn't a very different process. It has exactly the same core features: a population of self-replicators that reproduce with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment. The only difference is that in human-designed systems that are designed to solve a specific problem, the environment is designed in such a way that it expresses the problem the human wants solved. For instance, it could be set up to evolve an optimal antenna - because the human wants a good antenna. The same process happens in nature, only nobody needs the antenna apart from the evolving critters themselves! And they might evolve ears instead, if that did the job better, or as well, within the environment they found themselves in. A human would have to make sure that eyes and ears weren't advantageous if they specifically wanted an antenna.Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle: As self-replication is a prerequisite for evolution, the first self-replicators must have had a non-self-replicating precursors, which cannot, therefore, have produced them by self-replication with variation in reproductive success! There may be an in-between state, where replication is incomplete, but pushed along by metabolic processes, while providing some sort of selective advantage. Without a valid theory, it's hard to say one way or the other.Zachriel
April 24, 2015
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The climate has been changing since the planet's inception. And yours still doesn't have a mechanism capable of explaining life's diversity.Joe
April 24, 2015
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Sure. But the net direction is non-stationary, so instead of wobbling round a mean, the mean itself is moving. If it weren't, we wouldn't call it "climate change".Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth:
If the environment makes a steady move in a particular direction (as may happen with climate change for instance)
With climate change there is still plenty of ups and downs.Joe
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Which is why Ewert, Dembski and Marks are looking in the wrong place! They are likening evolution to a search, which it isn’t, with a “target” which it doesn’t havce, as you say.
Which is why evolution is useless and doesn't do anything beyond changing allele frequencies.
They use the exact same process as evolution to solve (often) a human-defined problem.
That is false and demonstrates ignorance of evolution. How can it be the same process when it is obviously a very different process?Joe
April 24, 2015
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Joe:
Which is why natural selection brings about a wobbling stability, which excludes universal common descent.
It'll wobble round a stable point if the environment wobbles round a stable point. If the environment makes a steady move in a particular direction (as may happen with climate change for instance) then populations will either go extinct or adapt along that same trajectory. Which they do will largely depend on how fast the change is.Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Joe:
Nonsense. Natural selection is not a search and does not have a goal.
Exactly. Which is why Ewert, Dembski and Marks are looking in the wrong place! They are likening evolution to a search, which it isn't, with a "target" which it doesn't havce, as you say. The only sense in which evolution is a search is the sense in which it tends to optimise populations of self-replicators for self-replication, in any given environment. And the only sense in which it has a "goal" or "target" is in the sense of that optimal state.
Evolutionary algorithms are both a search and goal-oriented.
They use the exact same process as evolution to solve (often) a human-defined problem. To do this, the human being designs an environment that represents the problem she wants solved. She does not design the solution, which would be pointless. The whole set-up results in the evolution of a population of self-replicators that, in optimising their own reproductive success in that environment, also solve the human's problems. But the mechanism is the same as in nature. The only difference lies in the design of the environment.Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle: for some reason you have attributed some of my comments to Kairosfocus! So let me address your responses Er, just ignore the comment.Zachriel
April 24, 2015
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Zachriel, for some reason you have attributed some of my comments to Kairosfocus! So let me address your responses:
kairosfocus Lizzie: clearly a self-replicator cannot “evolve” from a non-self-replicator Zachriel: That’s not clear, but is irrelevant in any case.
It seems clear to me :) As self-replication is a prerequisite for evolution, the first self-replicators must have had a non-self-replicating precursors, which cannot, therefore, have produced them by self-replication with variation in reproductive success! In other words, we cannot invoke evolutionary process as a cause of self-replication itself. To that extent I agree with kairosfocus, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
kairosfocus Lizzie: So it would probably be useful to focus on that specific argument. Zachriel: That is the topic of the thread.
Indeed.
kairosfocus Lizzie: And the richer the variety of that environment, in terms of potential threats and resources, then the more information it contains, quantifiable in bits, if you like. Zachriel: Yes. Replicators incorporate information about its relationship to the environment.
Yes. And we could quantify that information in conventional terms. I mentioned "1/f ness" earlier - and it seems to me that is quite important: the natural environment offers a great deal of variety at many different scales - it has multi-scale entropy (easily expressed in bits), which means it not only has both smoothness and variety whether we are talking about viruses or blue whales, but also smoothness between scales. And that self-similarity property of the environment seems to be a result of fairly fundamental physical laws, hence the utility of Reynold's numbers.Elizabeth Liddle
April 24, 2015
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