Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID theory … in one handy article

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Evolution News and Views

Further to “Atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel’s anti-Darwin book ‘can’t be ignoredby the thinking public’”, here is Discovery Institute’s Casey Luskin’s summary:

Intelligent design is a scientific theory that argues that the best explanation for some natural phenomena is an intelligence cause, especially when we find certain types of information and complexity in nature which in our experience are caused by intelligence.

… topics …

1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information.

2. ID is NOT a theory about the designer or the supernatural

3. ID is NOT a theory of everything

He then goes on to say what it is:

1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information

The theory of intelligent design begins with observations of how intelligent agents act when they design things. Human intelligence provides a large empirical dataset for studying the products of the action of intelligent agents. This present-day observation-based dataset establishes cause-and-effect relationships between intelligent action and certain types of information.

William Dembski observes that “[t]he principle characteristic of intelligent agency is directed contingency, or what we call choice.”15 Dembski calls ID “a theory of information” where “information becomes a reliable indicator of design as well as a proper object for scientific investigation.”16 A cause-and-effect relationship can be established between mind and information. As information theorist Henry Quastler observed, the “creation of new information is habitually associated with conscious activity.”17

The most commonly cited type of “information” that reliably indicates design is “specified complexity.” As Dembski writes, “the defining feature of intelligent causes is their ability to create novel information and, in particular, specified complexity.”18 Though the terms were not originally coined by an ID proponent, Dembski suggests that design can be detected when one finds a rare or highly unlikely event (making it complex) which conforms to an independently derived pattern (making it specified). ID proponents call this complex and specified information, or “CSI.” Stephen Meyer explains that in our experience, only intelligent agents produce this type of information:
More.

Note: It’s depressing that so much “opposition” to the notion of design in the universe/life forms comes from Jesus-hollering academics who say things like “Well, that would make God responsible for bad design!”

I (O’Leary for News) wrote about that in “Here’s one bad reason for rejecting ID,” pointing out that when speaking to Moses, God takes responsibility for things that don’t work. (Ex. 4:11) These facts cannot be used as an argument against divine authorship or involvement by anyone claiming to operate within the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

So far as I am concerned, any Christian academic using such arguments should rightly be suspected of not actually knowing, caring about, or even taking seriously what the Bible says. Of course, many theistic evolutionists/Christian Darwinists probably do not know, care about, or even take seriously what the Bible says about anything if it conflicts with current fashion. But they are only allowed to openly say that about topics like Adam and Eve, about whom they make silly jokes. If they start saying that they don’t think Moses ever really talked with God or reported what he said accurately, why then … why then they might be asked just what their issues really are, and those issues won’t turn out to be “information theory” or “specified complexity.” Hence all the evasion and fancy dancing.

But don’t expect serious questions to be asked any time soon. Too many people are complicit now.

At any rate, the issues thinking atheists who don’t work for lobbies raise are far more honest.

Comments
kairosfocus:
No blind chance and mechanical necessity based search process on the scope of our solar system can adequately sample a space for 500 bits to make finding such isolated zones T plausible in W = 3.27*10^150 or more possibilities [a 1 straw to 1,000 light year haystack ratio of search to space], and 1,000 bits much more overwhelmingly swamps the observable cosmos. Remember the latter has every atom sampling a config through any blind process every 10^-45 s, i.e. Planck time. Not even such a process can sample 1 in 10^150 of the scope for something of 1,000 bits complexity. Notice, I am exactly not specifying any particular chance hyp, nor estimating any probability, I am applying sample theory to give a cruder but very effective result — as I have pointed out for years.
[Emphasis mine] Isn't your math based on a hypothesis of equiprobable sampling?R0bb
August 19, 2013
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Joe@36
You misread what he said.
What did I misread, and what did Ewert really mean?
In order to follow the rules of scientific investigation they have to use the explanatory filter or something exactly like it.
So if they were to weigh the merits of the design hypothesis against the merits of other hypotheses, rather than using the EF, that would be against the rules of scientific investigation? Where did you learn these rules?R0bb
August 19, 2013
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Well, I would tend to agree, and certainly for research in which results should be replicable, it's important to have clear operational measures. Dembski's definition of CSI for instance, looks clear enough, but it turns out not to be, because some of the parameters are not clearly defined, for instance "the relevant chance hypothesis".Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Elizabeth, I understand what you mean about heterogeneity, but there shouldn't be THAT much heterogeneity. Otherwise, the domain cannot be identifiable as a domain. So, what I would expect is maybe 4-6 contested definitions, of which 2-3 are the primary schools, 2 emphasize some small aspects, and 2 are outlier or radical alternatives. What I would not expect is either absence of definition or refusal to provide a definition. ID proponents seem to me to do both. It just makes no sense to me to have a Theory of X where no one wants to talk about what X actually is and is not. Can you imagine having, for instance, a Theory of Mind in which no one discusses what the mind is and does but rather only repetitively asserts the existence of the mind and the failure of no-mind theories?LarTanner
August 19, 2013
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Because like all broad domains of thought, there is a fair amount of heterogeneity among the proponents. But as I said, I'd expect any one proponent to rigorously define his/her terms so that they can be clearly understood.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle @ 78: You would not expect that a theory of ID would define either “design” or “intelligent design”? Why would you not expect these terms, above all others, should be rigorously defined and understood?LarTanner
August 19, 2013
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I started a separate discussion. I know that my fellow ID proponents will disagree, and I respect their viewpoint, but it is a disagreement that I feel needs to be stated: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/am-i-the-only-id-proponent-that-doesnt-like-the-phrase-positive-case-for-id/scordova
August 19, 2013
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No, but then I wouldn't expect that. I would however, expect that any one writer would define his/her use of the terms clearly.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle, Are you satisfied that ID theory provides an adequate definition of the terms "design" and "intelligent design"?LarTanner
August 19, 2013
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The argument from complexity is not a "positive argument" in the sense I would use the term - it's specifically the argument that what is observed is UNlikely under the null of non-design. A positive argument would have this kind of form: If X is designed then we would see A, not B, whereas if X evolved/resulted from physics and chemistry we would see B, not A. But to do that you'd have to have a specific design hypothesis (e.g. "front-loading" or "intermittent intervention", or "intervention at OOL"). And that is what ID proponents have traditionally shied away from doing. Unless ID has a specific hypothesis, all phenomena are compatible with ID, which leaves only negative arguments (ID can account for everything, therefore anything unaccounted for by non-design must be due to design).Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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… topics … 1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information. As an ID advocate, I disagree with this. Positive argument means to most people, "we see the God in action creating designs in the present day, therefore the designs of life in the present were made by God." That is a the form of a positive argument. ID is mostly based on analogy and heavy amounts of negative arguments. This is equivocating what most people mean by "positive argument". I don't like it when Darwinists equivocate, and its rare that ID proponents equivocate, and maybe this is the only instance I know in ID literature of equivocating the notion of a "positive argument". Making claims like this is overplaying ones hand, it does lend credibility or believability to ones claims. I've argued, it may suffice to say that life resembles designed objects, that's a defensible claim. That's a scientifically defensible claim... Arguing whether there is a Designer, and Intelligence at the root of the Designs...that is matter of accepting a reasonable (but not absolutely provable) postulate. The inference to design is reasonable, it is almost hard for some (myself included) to believe the opposite, but let's not say ID makes "positive arguments", it's vague at best and equivocating at worst.
scordova
August 19, 2013
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Jerry:
How is evolutionary theory a scientific theory.
It's a scientific theory by virtue of generating testable hypotheses that can, and are, tested against new data.
Of course there is no definition here so “evolutionary theory” could mean anything including ID.
It could, but it is usually taken to refer to the body of theory that posits that all known life on earth descended from a universal common ancestral population of very simple living things, and diversified by a process of adaptation, speciation and drift.
There is no evidence for any naturalistic theory proposed by man
There is lots of evidence for many naturalistic theories proposed by man (and woman), including the theory of evolution. None of them exclude the possibility that all that exists was created by a divine mind with the intention of bringing about what has in fact occurred.
but there is evidence for ID which can explain the diversity of life.
Not much (any?) in the form of positive evidence. All the ID arguments have been negative (X is unlikely under non-design, therefore design).Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Jerry:
some have arbitrarily excluded ID from this set.
Who?Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Johnnfarmer: That is not the case. I realise it is widely believed in ID circles but the cases are not symmetrical. There is no scientific conclusion that no deity was involved. All there are are provisional explanatory models. They are never sufficient. Nor do they, or can they, exclude a non-material prime mover, or even interventionist mover. There is no "default" to "materialism" in science. It doesn't even make any sense. Science is the process of discovering predictive models. If part of what we observe is unpredictable by virtue of having a non-material cause, then science won't be able to discover it. It certainly can't exclude it.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Likewise Alan if you can't prove ID then materialism is assumed by default. So which default position is superior?Johnnyfarmer
August 19, 2013
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Classic default argument. If we can’t explain OoL, then “Intelligent Design” is assumed by default.
Absolutely no. It just makes ID more likely as the reason for OOL. There is never the absolute such as ID cannot possibly accepted. Natural explanations are always in the set of potential explanations. It is just that ID is also in that set but some have arbitrarily excluded ID from this set.
Notwithstanding, evolutionary theory is silent on the origin of life. ToE is a scientific theory explaining life’s diversity not its origin.
How is evolutionary theory a scientific theory. Of course there is no definition here so "evolutionary theory" could mean anything including ID. There is no evidence for any naturalistic theory proposed by man but there is evidence for ID which can explain the diversity of life. So are you advocating ID? It certainly sounds like it.jerry
August 19, 2013
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If you want to break ID on the merits, show us a case where OOL is EMPIRICALLY grounded on blind search such as has been discussed so many times.
Classic default argument. If we can't explain OoL, then "Intelligent Design" is assumed by default. Notwithstanding, evolutionary theory is silent on the origin of life. ToE is a scientific theory explaining life's diversity not its origin. BTW KF, take a break. This site and everything ever posted on it could disappear tomorrow and it would matter not one jot. Some things, especially family are much more important.Alan Fox
August 19, 2013
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Joe
The presence of CSI = design because of the lack of a chance hypothesis to account for it.
Right. So CSI is the negative log of the probability of what you observed, under a chance null. In other words, CSI is defined in terms of the relevant chance (aka null) hypothesis.
That is what must have you confused, Lizzie.
On this occasion, Joe, it seems to be you who are confused.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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KF:
EL: WmAD is giving fundamentally an INFORMATION metric, as taking it one step forward — as I did and pointed out to you — will show. We are fully justified to take that step and to hold that the info and redundancy patterns in the living cell enfold and reflect all relevant chance hyps. Once that is done it is quite plain that the functionally specified complexity involved in protein fold domains is far beyond the reasonable reach of ANY chance and mechanical necessity blind process on the gamut of solar system or observed cosmos. For needle in haystack search reasons. As I just said to Robb the OOL context makes the point most plainly. Right now, I have neither time nor energy to go on another one of those endless crocodile death roll rhetorical circles games where the material point is blatantly obvious and cogently compelling save to the ideologically predisposed. If you want to break ID on the merits, show us a case where OOL is EMPIRICALLY grounded on blind search such as has been discussed so many times. You don’t have that, so the only thing you can do is obfuscate the issue. Game over. KF
I'm not "obfuscating", KF. I'm just pointing out to Joe that Dembski's definition of CSI is essentially the same as yours. Do you think that it isn't?Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Defining the equations and the terms used in the equations is NOT defining the concept, R0bb. Neither CSI nor SC care how they arose. Therefor definining wrt the chance hypothesis doesn’t make any sense.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Joe:
Elizabeth, CSI isn’t even discussed in that paper. I challenge you to search on “CSI” or “complex specified information”- you won’t find it in that paper.
It's been pointed out to you at least once before that Dembski explicitly says that this paper is about CSI:
For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com.
Joe:
Elixzabeth, Those are NOT definitions.
Here's what Dembski says:
We thus define the specified complexity of T given H (minus the tilde and context sensitivity) as ? = –log2[10^120 * φ_S(T) * P(T|H)].
How is that not a definition?R0bb
August 19, 2013
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EL: WmAD is giving fundamentally an INFORMATION metric, as taking it one step forward -- as I did and pointed out to you -- will show. We are fully justified to take that step and to hold that the info and redundancy patterns in the living cell enfold and reflect all relevant chance hyps. Once that is done it is quite plain that the functionally specified complexity involved in protein fold domains is far beyond the reasonable reach of ANY chance and mechanical necessity blind process on the gamut of solar system or observed cosmos. For needle in haystack search reasons. As I just said to Robb the OOL context makes the point most plainly. Right now, I have neither time nor energy to go on another one of those endless crocodile death roll rhetorical circles games where the material point is blatantly obvious and cogently compelling save to the ideologically predisposed. If you want to break ID on the merits, show us a case where OOL is EMPIRICALLY grounded on blind search such as has been discussed so many times. You don't have that, so the only thing you can do is obfuscate the issue. Game over. KFkairosfocus
August 19, 2013
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The presence of CSI = design because of the lack of a chance hypothesis to account for it. That is what must have you confused, Lizzie.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Elizabeth, Neither CSI nor SC care how they arose. Therefor definining wrt the chance hypothesis doesn't make any sense. Dembski was defining his equations, not the concepts. Yes, it is true that you can and do twist what Dembski writes to suit your needs. However that means nothing to me nor Dembski. BTW it is obvious that you cannot understand the ID literature. Heck your nonsense about natural selection producing CSI is more proof than I need for that.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Thanks, KF - Joe, read KF's post. He is using a similar definition to Dembski's except raising the threshold slightly - in other words defining CSI in terms of the probability of the observed under a chance hypothesis, given the "probabilistic resources" of the observable universe. Hope your son is doing well Kairosfocus. I spent the weekend playing Caribbean music, and it kept me thinking of you.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Robb: I already did, and right now I have neither time nor energy for the usual rhetorical games from your side. The very presentation of a case long since known to be chance plus necessity leading to something non-specific, ash bands in snow, aptly illustrates my point. To be CSI, there has to be JOINT complexity and specificity on a given aspect of an entity, leading to the isolated islands in a vast config space of beyond astronomical search scope effect. I think Dembsky's 500 bit limit is only applicable to solar system scale (our practical universe for chemical scale interactions), and 1,000 tightens that up. No blind chance and mechanical necessity based search process on the scope of our solar system can adequately sample a space for 500 bits to make finding such isolated zones T plausible in W = 3.27*10^150 or more possibilities [a 1 straw to 1,000 light year haystack ratio of search to space], and 1,000 bits much more overwhelmingly swamps the observable cosmos. Remember the latter has every atom sampling a config through any blind process every 10^-45 s, i.e. Planck time. Not even such a process can sample 1 in 10^150 of the scope for something of 1,000 bits complexity. Notice, I am exactly not specifying any particular chance hyp, nor estimating any probability, I am applying sample theory to give a cruder but very effective result -- as I have pointed out for years. Some lotteries are unwinnable per needle in haystack search challenge reasons. As well you know or should know. And if you want a concrete context, think OOL where chemicals in a pond need to go to a functional self replicating, metabolising, code and algorithm using cell. KFkairosfocus
August 19, 2013
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You don't get a definition much more precise than an equation, Joe. That's why Dembski uses the word define. Of course you may disagree with Dembski's definition. But then don't accuse me of not understanding the ID literature. Dembski's a fairly well-known ID writer, no?Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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Elixzabeth, Those are NOT definitions.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Joe:
CSI and SC are the same like matter and energy are the same- both are different manifistations of the same thing. And it is very telling that you cannot pull the definition from the paper and post it here.
Of course I can. Here it is:
Moreover, we define the logarithm to the base 2 of M•N•?S(T)•P(T|H) as the context-dependent specified complexity of T given H.
and
Moreover,H, here, is the relevant chance hypothesis that takes into account Darwinian and other material mechanisms.
(my bold). In other words, I am correct. Dembski defines CSI/chi/SC in terms of a chance hypothesis.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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jerry:
Another example of what I was talking about. Notice the very careful choice of words.
Indeed. Words matter.
There is no denial that intelligence is the cause
The "denial" is that the cause has been demonstrated.
only an academic phrasing that somehow intelligence can be true but invalid.
Of course it can. "This vase must have been deliberately smashed by my teenager" may be true, but it's an invalid conclusion merely from the evidence of the smashed vase. It could ave been the cat, or the wind. It is perfectly possible to arrive at a true conclusion via an invalid reasoning process.
In this case it is academic-ese for I can’t possibly dispute the obviousness of your conclusion but I can find some tiny little fault in your method,
No, it isn't. That's a mistranslation. It's scientific-ese for: "your conclusion may or may not be correct but it doesn't follow from your evidence and/or reasoning". It's one of the questions peer-reviewers routinely have to answer when reviewing scientific papers: are the paper's conclusions supported by the evidence and argument"? Note, the question is NOT: "is the conclusion true"?
and because of this your conclusion is not to be accepted even if true.
No. This forms no part of my position, nor is it implied by what I wrote. It is high time ID proponents recognised that "God didn't do it" is not a scientific claim, and not one made by anyone qua scientist.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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