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Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information

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The following is a guest post by Aurelio Smith. I have invited him to present a critique of Active Information in a more prominent place at UD so we can have a good discussion of Active Information’s strengths and weaknesses. The rest of this post is his.


My thanks to johnnyb for offering to host a post from me on the subject of ‘active information’. I’ve been following the fortunes of the ID community for some time now and I was a little disappointed that the recent publications of the ‘triumvirate’ of William Dembski, Robert Marks and their newly promoted postgrad Doctor Ewert have received less attention here than their efforts deserve. The thrust of their assault on Darwinian evolution has developed from earlier concepts such as “complex specified information” and “conservation of information” and they now introduce “Algorithmic Specified Complexity” and “Active information”.

Some history.

William Demsbski gives an account of the birth of his ideas here:

…in the summer of 1992, I had spent several weeks with Stephen Meyer and Paul Nelson in Cambridge, England, to explore how to revive design as a scientific concept, using it to elucidate biological origins as well as to refute the dominant materialistic understanding of evolution (i.e., neo-Darwinism). Such a project, if it were to be successful, clearly could not merely give a facelift to existing design arguments for the existence of God. Indeed, any designer that would be the conclusion of such statistical reasoning would have to be far more generic than any God of ethical monotheism. At the same time, the actual logic for dealing with small probabilities seemed less to directly implicate a designing intelligence than to sweep the field clear of chance alternatives. The underlying logic therefore was not a direct argument for design but an indirect circumstantial argument that implicated design by eliminating what it was not.*

[*my emphasis]

Dembski published The Design Inference in 1998, where the ‘explanatory filter’ was proposed as a tool to separate ‘design’ from ‘law’ and ‘chance’. The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. Wesley Elsberry’s review points out the failure to include unknown causation as a possibility. Dembski acknowledges the problem in a comment in a thread at Uncommon Descent – Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson

I wish I had time to respond adequately to this thread, but I’ve got a book to deliver to my publisher January 1 — so I don’t. Briefly: (1) I’ve pretty much dispensed with the EF. It suggests that chance, necessity, and design are mutually exclusive. They are not. Straight CSI [Complex Specified Information] is clearer as a criterion for design detection.* (2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger. (3) As for the applicability of CSI to biology, see the chapter on “assertibility” in my book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION. (4) For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com. (5) There’s a paper Bob Marks and I just got accepted which shows that evolutionary search can never escape the CSI problem (even if, say, the flagellum was built by a selection-variation mechanism, CSI still had to be fed in).

[*my emphasis]

Active information.

Dr Dembski has posted some background to his association with Professor Robert Marks and The Evolutionary Informatics Lab which has resulted in the publication of several papers with active information as an important theme. A notable collaborator is Winston Ewert Ph D, whose master’s thesis was entitled: Studies of Active Information in Search where, in chapter four, he criticizes Lenski et al., 2003, saying:

[quoting Lenski et al., 2003]“Some readers might suggest that we stacked the deck by studying the evolution of a complex feature that could be built on simpler functions that were also useful.”

This, indeed, is what the writers of Avida software do when using stair step active information.

What is active information?

In A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search, Dembski, Ewert and Marks (henceforth DEM) give their definition of “active information” as follows:

In comparing null and alternative searches, it is convenient to convert probabilities to information measures (note that all logarithms in the sequel are to the base 2). We therefore define the endogenous information IΩ as –log(p), which measures the inherent difficulty of a blind or null search in exploring the underlying search space Ω to locate the target T. We then define the exogenous information IS as –log(q), which measures the difficulty of the alternative search S in locating the target T. And finally, we define the active information I+ as the difference between the endogenous and exogenous information: I+ = IΩ – IS = log(q/p). Active information therefore measures the information that must be added (hence the plus sign in I+) on top of a null search to raise an alternative search’s probability of success by a factor of q/p. [excuse formatting errors in mathematical symbols]

They conclude with an analogy from the financial world, saying:

Conservation of information shows that active information, like money, obeys strict accounting principles. Just as banks need money to power their financial instruments, so searches need active information to power their success in locating targets. Moreover, just as banks must balance their books, so searches, in successfully locating targets, must balance their books — they cannot output more information than was inputted.

In an article at the Pandas Thumb website Professor Joe Felsenstein, in collaboration with Tom English, presents some criticism of of the quoted DEM paper. Felsenstein helpfully posts an “abstract in the comments, saying:

Dembski, Ewert and Marks have presented a general theory of “search” that has a theorem that, averaged over all possible searches, one does not do better than uninformed guessing (choosing a genotype at random, say). The implication is that one needs a Designer who chooses a search in order to have an evolutionary process that succeeds in finding genotypes of improved fitness. But there are two things wrong with that argument: 1. Their space of “searches” includes all sorts of crazy searches that do not prefer to go to genotypes of higher fitness – most of them may prefer genotypes of lower fitness or just ignore fitness when searching. Once you require that there be genotypes that have different fitnesses, so that fitness affects their reproduction, you have narrowed down their “searches” to ones that have a much higher probability of finding genotypes that have higher fitness. 2. In addition, the laws of physics will mandate that small changes in genotype will usually not cause huge changes in fitness. This is true because the weakness of action at a distance means that many genes will not interact strongly with each other. So the fitness surface is smoother than a random assignment of fitnesses to genotypes. That makes it much more possible to find genotypes that have higher fitness. Taking these two considerations into account – that an evolutionary search has genotypes whose fitnesses affect their reproduction, and that the laws of physics militate against strong interactions being typical – we see that Dembski, Ewert, and Marks’s argument does not show that Design is needed to have an evolutionary system that can improve fitness.

I note that there is an acknowledgement in the DEM paper as follows:

The authors thank Peter Olofsson and Dietmar Eben for helpful feedback on previous work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, feedback that has found its way into this paper.

This is the same Professor Olofsson referred to in the “Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson thread mentioned above. Dietmar Eben has blogged extensively on DEM’s ideas.

I’m not qualified to criticize the mathematics but I see no need to doubt that it is sound. However what I do query is whether the model is relevant to biology. The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”. There is the source of the active information.

I was recently made aware that this classic paper by Sewall Wright, The Roles of Mutation, Inbeeding, Crossbreeding and Selection in Evolution, is available online. Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

Perhaps, in conclusion, I should emphasize two things. Firstly, I am utterly opposed to censorship and suppression. I strongly support the free exchange of ideas and information. I strongly support any genuine efforts to develop “Intelligent Design” into a formal scientific endeavor. Jon Bartlett sees advantages in the field of computer science and I say good luck to him. Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt. Had Sewall Wright been developing his ideas in the computer age, his laboriously hand-crafted diagrams would, I’m sure, have evolved (deliberate pun) into exquisite computer models.

References

History: Wm Dembski 1998 the Design inference, explanatory filter ( Elsberry criticizes the book for using a definition of “design” as what is left over after chance and regularity have been eliminated)

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

Elsberry & Shallit

Theft over Toil John S. Wilkins, Wesley R. Elsberry 2001

Computational capacity of the universe Seth Lloyd 2001

Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and
Dembski’s “Complex Specified Information”
Elsberry and Shallit 2003

Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by William A. Dembski August 15, 2005

Evaluation of Evolutionary and Genetic
Optimizers: No Free Lunch
Tom English 1996

Conservation of Information Made Simple William Dembski 2012

…evolutionary biologists possessing the mathematical tools to understand search are typically happy to characterize evolution as a form of search. And even those with minimal knowledge of the relevant mathematics fall into this way of thinking.

Take Brown University’s Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist whose knowledge of the relevant mathematics I don’t know. Miller, in attempting to refute ID, regularly describes examples of experiments in which some biological structure is knocked out along with its function, and then, under selection pressure, a replacement structure is evolved that recovers the function. What makes these experiments significant for Miller is that they are readily replicable, which means that the same systems with the same knockouts will undergo the same recovery under the same suitable selection regime. In our characterization of search, we would say the search for structures that recover function in these knockout experiments achieves success with high probability.

Suppose, to be a bit more concrete, we imagine a bacterium capable of producing a particular enzyme that allows it to live off a given food source. Next, we disable that enzyme, not by removing it entirely but by, say, changing a DNA base in the coding region for this protein, thus changing an amino acid in the enzyme and thereby drastically lowering its catalytic activity in processing the food source. Granted, this example is a bit stylized, but it captures the type of experiment Miller regularly cites.

So, taking these modified bacteria, the experimenter now subjects them to a selection regime that starts them off on a food source for which they don’t need the enzyme that’s been disabled. But, over time, they get more and more of the food source for which the enzyme is required and less and less of other food sources for which they don’t need it. Under such a selection regime, the bacterium must either evolve the capability of processing the food for which previously it needed the enzyme, presumably by mutating the damaged DNA that originally coded for the enzyme and thereby recovering the enzyme, or starve and die.

So where’s the problem for evolution in all this? Granted, the selection regime here is a case of artificial selection — the experimenter is carefully controlling the bacterial environment, deciding which bacteria get to live or die*. [(* My emphasis) Not correct – confirmed by Richard Lenski – AF] But nature seems quite capable of doing something similar. Nylon, for instance, is a synthetic product invented by humans in 1935, and thus was absent from bacteria for most of their history. And yet, bacteria have evolved the ability to digest nylon by developing the enzyme nylonase. Yes, these bacteria are gaining new information, but they are gaining it from their environments, environments that, presumably, need not be subject to intelligent guidance. No experimenter, applying artificial selection, for instance, set out to produce nylonase.

To see that there remains a problem for evolution in all this, we need to look more closely at the connection between search and information and how these concepts figure into a precise formulation of conservation of information. Once we have done this, we’ll return to the Miller-type examples of evolution to see why evolutionary processes do not, and indeed cannot, create the information needed by biological systems. Most biological configuration spaces are so large and the targets they present are so small that blind search (which ultimately, on materialist principles, reduces to the jostling of life’s molecular constituents through forces of attraction and repulsion) is highly unlikely to succeed. As a consequence, some alternative search is required if the target is to stand a reasonable chance of being located. Evolutionary processes driven by natural selection constitute such an alternative search. Yes, they do a much better job than blind search. But at a cost — an informational cost, a cost these processes have to pay but which they are incapable of earning on their own.

Meaningful Information

Meaningful Information Paul Vit´anyi 2004

The question arises whether it is possible to separate meaningful information from accidental information, and if so, how.

Evolutionary Informatics Publications

Conservation of Information in Relative Search Performance Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Algorithmic Specified Complexity
in the Game of Life
Ewert, Dembski, Marks 2015

Digital Irreducible Complexity: A Survey of Irreducible
Complexity in Computer Simulations
Ewert 2014

On the Improbability of Algorithmic Specified
Complexity
Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Actually, in my talk, I work off of three papers, the last of which Felsenstein fails to cite and which is the most general, avoiding the assumption of uniform probability to which Felsenstein objects.

EN&V

Dietmar Eben’s blog

Dieb review “cost of successful search

Conservation of Information in Search:
Measuring the Cost of Success
Dembski, Marks 2009

The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of
Higher Level Search
Dembski, Marks 2009

Has Natural Selection Been Refuted? The Arguments of William Dembski Joe Felsenstein 2007

In conclusion
Dembski argues that there are theorems that prevent natural selection from explaining the adaptations that we see. His arguments do not work. There can be no theorem saying that adaptive information is conserved and cannot be increased by natural selection. Gene frequency changes caused by natural selection can be shown to generate specified information. The No Free Lunch theorem is mathematically correct, but it is inapplicable to real biology. Specified information, including complex specified information, can be generated by natural selection without needing to be “smuggled in”. When we see adaptation, we are not looking at positive evidence of billions and trillions of interventions by a designer. Dembski has not refuted natural selection as an explanation for adaptation.

ON DEMBSKI’S LAW OF CONSERVATION OF INFORMATION Erik Tellgren 2002

Comments
I wrote:
“I know it is”, isn’t an philosophical argument for why reductionism should be the only mode of explanation in science.
Joe:
I never made that claim. Obviously you have other issues.
That's my point, Joe. You didn't do so explicitly. Rather, you implicitly assumed that was the case as part of your claim that neo-darwinism cannot explain anything, scientifically. That's what I meant when I said your claim was parochial (unnecessary narrow in scope).Popperian
April 28, 2015
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@Box#487 Not knowing everything exhaustively doesn't mean we know nothing and cannot solve problems. What I want from a theory is its content, not its providence.Popperian
April 28, 2015
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Popp:
“I know it is”, isn’t an philosophical argument for why reductionism should be the only mode of explanation in science.
I never made that claim. Obviously you have other issues. Good luck with that.
Cars and laptop computers do not self-replicate.
That means they are less complex and therefor nature should be able to produce them.Joe
April 28, 2015
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WJM: There is no “interaction problem” because matter is an illusion generated by mind, albeit a very convincing one. I am sure that will be a comfort to the people of Nepal that it is only a illusion that buried their illusionary relatives. Luckily the problem of duality has been solved by removing the material world. Is it self evidently wrong to torture an illusion for pleasure?velikovskys
April 28, 2015
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Joe, If what I wrote is incoherent, then I would expect you to differentiate your position from it. Yet, the great majority of your responses merely repeat what I wrote, minus key differentiations I've made. Examples? Paraphrase of what I wrote:
Reductionism is a single, specific mode of explanation that can be used in science. There is good criticism of it hindering the understanding of complex systems and there are concrete examples that are wholly physical, yet not reductionist in nature, such as how to make tea. So, you're argument is unnecessarily narrow in scope.
Joe wrote:
Yes, I know [reductionism is a specific view about science.]
"I know it is", isn't an philosophical argument for why reductionism should be the only mode of explanation in science. Paraphrase of what I wrote:
The response “The variations that help.” doesn't actually move us forward. This is because, responses that are "helpful" under right conditions, opposed to those which would be unhelpful, would be transformations of matter that only occur when (contingent) the right knowledge is present. Was it present in the outset? If so where is it located, in the cell or in the laws of physics? If none of the above, then fill in the blank?
Joe:
Incoherent. It’s called contingency. That means it all depends on the context.
You're not actually disagreeing with me here either, yet I'm supposedly incoherent? I wrote:
For example, I can’t just show up at a genetics lab and vary a bacteria to, say, eat fossil fuels. That’s because I do not possess the knowledge of which variations would result in just the right proteins, which would restful in just the features “that help.” If I did successfully intercede from the outside to vary such a bacteria in such a way, it would because the right knowledge of what transformations that should occur was present. Namely in me.
Joe:
That is because you don’t know how to design organisms.
That's what I wrote, Joe. I just was more specific. Namely, knowing how to design an organism requires possessing the knowledge of what transformations would be necessary to result in just the right features that would be helpful under specific conditions. You're not actually disagreeing with me. Nor are you engaging my arguments. It's unclear how this makes what I wrote incoherent. Joe:
They don’t look like options to me. They look like a child’s rant.
Then you shouldn't have any problem providing specific criticism that indicate why. Please be specific. Joe:
Then read Spetner and Shapiro.
You can't paraphrase? Then a specific reference, please. Joe:
It’s called Intelligent Design. A computer’s knowledge is present at the outset and can be updated.
I know what it's called Joe, If I'm going to understand it beyond "that's just what a designer must have wanted", that means taking the theory seriously, as an explanation for what we observe, along with what appears to be uncontroversial aspects of biology. That's what I'm trying to to, Joe. You want me to take your theory seriously, right? Cars and laptop computers do not self-replicate. That is, they do not contain the knowlege of what transformations would be necessary to make copes of themselves. Nor do they execute them. (Well, a laptop computer could hold the instructions a robot would need to build it, but the robot actual does the transformations, not the laptop.) On the other hand organisms do not appear out of thin air. Nor are they built in "organism factories". Rather, they self-replicate. And they do so using the knowledge of what transformations of matter should occur to make copies of themselves that exists in the form of DNA in each cell. This is a key difference. An organism making a copy of itself and varying its DNA in ways that are "helpful" are both transformations of matter. It's unclear why the former would occur with the requisite knowledge of what transformations to make under the right circumstances being present, but not the latter. Joe:
No form at all as it is software, ie immaterial.
In practice, computers are physical things, regardless if they consist of cogs, transistors or qbits. Programs exist on physical storage media of one form or another. If I take the SSD out of a laptop it won't boot. If I delete a program of disk, i can execute it. In the same sense, if a cell itself is going to respond with variations that are "helpful" under a matrix of external conditions, the question is, where is the knowledge of which responses that meet that criteria located? And, if it's not in the cell, then how does the cell have anything to do with the response? If none of the above, then is that knowledge somehow present in the laws of physics?Popperian
April 28, 2015
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Bob O'H: Why is evolution modeled as a search? Opponents of ID argue both that evolution is a search and that it is not a search. Opponents of ID argue both that genetic algorithms are search algorithms and that they are not search algorithms. Opponents of ID argue both that genetic algorithms are accurate models of evolution and that genetic algorithms are not an accurate model of evolution. What's going on here? Can you shed any light on this?Mung
April 28, 2015
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> Humans haven’t solved the halting problem either. When the drill sergeant said halt we halted.Mung
April 28, 2015
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Rosenberg (yes he again), seems to be aware that there are some serious problems at the outer and inner "boundaries" of the concept of matter.
The multiverse theory seems to provide an opportunity seized upon by wishful thinkers, theologians, and their fellow travelers among the physicists and philosophers. First they ask, “If our universe is just one of many in a multiverse, where did the multiverse come from? And where did the multiverse’s cause come from, and where did its cause come from?” And so on, ad infinitum. Once they have convinced themselves and others that this series of questions has no stopping point in physics, they play what they imagine is a trump card, a question whose only answer they think has to be the God hypothesis. It is certainly true that if physics has to move back farther and farther in the regress from universe to multiverse to something that gave rise to the multiverse, to something even more basic than that, it will never reach any point labeled “last stop, all off” (or rather “starting point” for all destinations). By the same token, if it has to move down to smaller and more fundamental components of reality than even fermions or bosons, it won’t ever know whether it has reached the “basement level” of reality. At this point, the theologians and mystery-mongering physicists play their trump card. It doesn’t matter whether there are infinite regresses in these two lines of inquiry or finite ones. Either way, they insist, physics can’t answer the question, Why is there anything at all? or as the question is famously put, Why is there something rather than nothing?
[Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide to Reality, ch.2]Box
April 28, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: Then move to here see one of the many limitations of this sort of thing. Humans haven't solved the halting problem either. An analog neural net can only be approximated algorithmically.Zachriel
April 28, 2015
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WJM, Actually, the detail and surprising nature of the interaction suggests that the two perceptions are accurate: the self acting reflexively on itself and through interfaces such as hands, legs and mouths, the other. Where the other includes conscious beings like as we are and passive entities that are material. We may decompose the macro level physical interaction and find a puzzling micro world but that does not undermine the macro. It grounds it. KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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Given what we currently understand about "matter", materialism is dead and dualism is an unnecessary philosophical concept. The experience of matter in any practical sense appears to be orchestrated by mind acting on and through a field of information. There is no "interaction problem" because matter is an illusion generated by mind, albeit a very convincing one.William J Murray
April 28, 2015
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Mark Frank: Dualism has been rejected by very respectable people at least since Ryle’s Concept of Mind and arguably long before.
This rejection of dualism stems from the days that ppl still had a clear understanding of what matter was. Given that understanding of matter the interaction with the mental poses severe problems. But what is our current understanding of matter? In quantum physics the causal role of consciousness (observer) is an open debate. How about string theory? And no one knows what energy is. IOW it is much more unclear today how to formulate the interaction problem, since we no longer have one concept of matter.Box
April 28, 2015
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MF says, I certainly did misunderstand you – not entirely my fault I think. I say, I was not blaming you Ive often been accused of not spelling out my position clearly enough. I assume that if someone as slow as me can get it would be obvious to all. me before Matter and mental are entirely different categories of substance. you before To me that’s a pretty good definition of dualism. I say, I don't think it is. As a materialist you don't hold that the number 2 is made of atoms do you? Mind is like the number 2 you say, That seems to me to be saying that matter mind cannot emerge from matter in a “step by step algorithmic process” because of dualism. I say, No it is saying two things 1) Matter can not give rise to mind anymore than a hydrogen atom can give rise to the number 2. 2) Consciousnesses can not be achieved via any step by step processes. That is not to say that it's not possible that certain configurations of matter are conscious. But it behooves the materialist to explain how such a thing can happen. And "it had to arise" does not count as an explanation you say, How can things emerge other than step-by-step ? I say, That is the ten thousand dollar question. I honestly have no idea given your worldview how any whole thing at all can arise other than step by step. This is simply the age old problem of the ONE and the Many. This is not a problem for my worldview in that I hold that whole things and the particles that constitute them are equally ultimate. you say, I too am not familiar with those limits. In fact, as explained above I am not sure what an algorithmic process is. I say, you might start here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm Then move to here see one of the many limitations of this sort of thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem ID when you boil it down is simply a claim that life and the universe can not be accounted for by algorithmic processes. I would hope that UP would know that. As far as me not mentioning algorithms before I assumed it was obvious given that any materialistic explanation would be algorithmic in nature as you said. from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin%27s_Dangerous_Idea quote: Dennett says, for example, that by claiming that minds cannot be reduced to purely algorithmic processes, many of his eminent contemporaries are claiming that miracles can occur. end quote: That sort of claim is much more in my wheel house than yours don't you agree? peacefifthmonarchyman
April 28, 2015
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Popp:
Nothing in your response addresses what I actually wrote.
What you wrote is incoherent.
Specially, I pointed out that reductionism is a specific view about science.
Yes, I know that it is.
The response “The variations that help.” doesn’t indicate where the knowledge of which variations are helpful should be made under which conditions (as opposed to variations that would be unhelpful) is located.
Incoherent. It's called contingency. That means it all depends on the context.
For example, I can’t just show up at a genetics lab and vary a bacteria to, say, eat fossil fuels.
That is because you don't know how to design organisms.
So, again, in your theory that is not anti-evolution, where is the knowledge what variations that would be helpful for specific organisms under specific conditions located?
I don't even know what that means. Mutations happen, it is a fact. What is the alternative to my idea, that they just happen?
I’ve already provided two options…
They don't look like options to me. They look like a child's rant.
I’m attempting to take what I think your theory is seriously, for the purpose of criticism.
Then read Spetner and Shapiro.
Again, you seem to be suggesting the knowledge was present at the outset, so where was/is it located?
It's called Intelligent Design. A computer's know;edge is present at the outset and can be updated.
What form did/does it take?
No form at all as it is software, ie immaterial.Joe
April 28, 2015
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5MM #471   I certainly did misunderstand you – not entirely my fault I think. In #471:
I’m not advocating dualism so I’m not sure what that has to do with me. I’m only pointing out that matter can not produce consciousness by a step by step process
In #423 you wrote:
Matter and mental are entirely different categories of substance.
To me that’s a pretty good definition of dualism. In #471
I understand that lots of smart people think that matter emerges from mind. I’m not even arguing that it can’t.
In #423:
It is definitionally impossible for one to yield the other in a step by step algorithmic process.
That seems to me to be saying that matter mind cannot emerge from matter in a “step by step algorithmic process” because of dualism. I don’t understand how this differs from Mind cannot emerge from matter. How can things emerge other than step-by-step and what is the difference between and algorithmic process and any other? In #471
I’m only asking that materialists explain how such a thing is possible, they owe us that much.
I can’t see where you asked that in #423.   And why should it be impossible unless you are a dualist?  
I would expect that if UP was truly an ID supporter he would be at least vaguely familiar with the limits of algorithmic processes.
I too am not familiar with those limits. In fact, as explained above I am not sure what an algorithmic process is. But as you didn’t include this term until #423 it is a bit hard to criticise UP for not addressing it before then! Mark Frank
April 28, 2015
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F/N: Some useful reading at ENV: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/peer-reviewed_s_1067421.html Key clip from Gauger et al in reply to a case of debating the controversy that must not be named: >> Wilf and Ewens argue in a recent paper that there is plenty of time for evolution to occur. They base this claim on a mathematical model in which beneficial mutations accumulate simultaneously and independently, thus allowing changes that require a large number of mutations to evolve over comparatively short time periods. Because changes evolve independently and in parallel rather than sequentially, their model scales logarithmically rather than exponentially. This approach does not accurately reflect biological evolution, however, for two main reasons. First, within their model are implicit information sources, including the equivalent of a highly informed oracle that prophesies when a mutation is "correct," thus accelerating the search by the evolutionary process. Natural selection, in contrast, does not have access to information about future benefits of a particular mutation, or where in the global fitness landscape a particular mutation is relative to a particular target. It can only assess mutations based on their current effect on fitness in the local fitness landscape. Thus the presence of this oracle makes their model radically different from a real biological search through fitness space. Wilf and Ewens also make unrealistic biological assumptions that, in effect, simplify the search. They assume no epistasis between beneficial mutations, no linkage between loci, and an unrealistic population size and base mutation rate, thus increasing the pool of beneficial mutations to be searched. They neglect the effects of genetic drift on the probability of fixation and the negative effects of simultaneously accumulating deleterious mutations. Finally, in their model they represent each genetic locus as a single letter. By doing so, they ignore the enormous sequence complexity of actual genetic loci (typically hundreds or thousands of nucleotides long), and vastly oversimplify the search for functional variants. In similar fashion, they assume that each evolutionary "advance" requires a change to just one locus, despite the clear evidence that most biological functions are the product of multiple gene products working together. Ignoring these biological realities infuses considerable active information into their model and eases the model's evolutionary process. (Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Ann K. Gauger, Robert J. Marks II, "Time and Information in Evolution," BIO-Complexity, Volume 2012 (4).) >> A bit more food for thought. KF PS: So is this comment in the same piece by Luskin:
the abstract hints at a fundamental problem with Wilf and Ewens's paper -- a problem that shows why it's not safe to assume as Wilf and Ewens do that mutations can always smoothly accumulate in a parallel fashion. In Wilf and Ewens's evolutionary scheme there is a smooth fitness function. Under this view, there is no epistasis, where one mutation can effectively interact with another to affect (whether positively or negatively) fitness. As a result, any mutations that move the search toward its "target" are assumed to provide an immediate and irrevocable advantage, and are thus highly likely to become fixed . . . . Wilf and Ewens ignore the problem of non-functional intermediates [i.e. crossing not only valleys in a rough landscape but seas of non-function with comparatively scanty resources]. They assume that all intermediate stages will be functional, or lead to some functional advantage. But is this how all fitness functions look? Not necessarily. It's well known that in many instances, no benefit is derived until multiple mutations are present all at once. In such a case, there's no evolutionary advantage until multiple mutations are present. The "correct" mutations might occur in parallel, but the odds of this happening are extremely low.
kairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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Bob O'H: You are begging the pivotal question and implicitly addressing a strawman version of the design case. The issue is not incremental progress within an island of function but to FIND such via blind needle in haystack search, starting with Darwin's pond or the like prebiotic environment, then to address origin of body plans, all on observed, demonstrated causally adequate factors shown to be able to create FSCO/I. Intelligently directed configuration is the only empirically warranted cause of FSCO/I. KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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TB, You know or should know -- as it was again brought to your attention via an extensive citation of Orgel from 1973 -- that the information content associated with FSCO/I can be derived from the chain length of structured Y/N q's to provide a wiring diagram level system description (thus pointing to Kolmogorov on the Mathematical side and for practical purposes AutoCAD etc as has been repeatedly highlighted for years). But also, as has been pointed out, the pivotal point of the needle in haystack blind search challenge -- pointed to in say the opening words of the Marks-Dembski 2010 article on active information -- is that FSCO/I is fundamentally a threshold of specified complexity issue. Once there is good evidence that we are beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of FSCO/I, especially dFSCI, blind chance and mechanical necessity cannot credibly mount a feasible search. So, while reducing an Aardvark or a human baby or a 6500 C3 reel to a detailed, assembly instruction level comprehensive engineering drawing is a serious undertaking (and one that for life forms would at present be beyond reasonable resources) we do not have to do that. A subset of the whole that carries us beyond the threshold is enough. For the fishing reel -- as was pointed out in reply to talking points but was ignored in the rush to trumpet an objection -- the main gear already is well beyond 143 ASCII characters of descriptive info to specify its 3-d mesh description. For a life form, a protein of length 300 or so AAs, given the deep isolation of protein fold domains in AA sequence space, is already enough, especially as complex life forms have typically hundreds of proteins that are unique, coming from very small domains. But the pivotal issue is actually well before such, it is OOL, the root of Darwin's Tree of Life: origin of an encapsulated, intelligently gated, metabolic nanotech automaton with integrated codes and algorithms using von Neumann kinematic self-replication facility. We know that just the genetic info for this is ~ 100 - 1,000 kbits, well beyond the threshold. And for origin of the many dozens of major body plans, we are looking at 10 - 100+ million bits, dozens of times over and within the gamut of ~ 600 - 1,000 MY on Earth. There is no empirically observed causally adequate blind watchmaker, needle in haystack mechanism that can credibly surmount such challenges. Nor is any such in prospect. This means the root and the main branches of the conventional tree of life as will be found in typical textbooks etc is without empirically adequate foundation. Bring to bear so-called horizontal transfers and you are looking at the collapse of the leading Darwinist icon, ToL. The only empirically warranted, causally adequate factor known to account for FSCO/I is design. So, whether or no it fits your preferences we are fully warranted as a scientific, inductive inference to conclude that the best current (and prospective) explanation for the FSCO/I in the world of cell based life from microbes to Mozart is design. Schoolyard nickname taunts do not change that, nor can angry projection of personal attacks and slanders or stalking online or on the ground including of increasingly remotely connected people. Not to mention the threats directly implicit in outing tactics involved: we know you, we know where you are, we know those you care for and where they are/can be ambushed, and more . Where, FYI, freedom to speak is not an absolute, that is why there is a law of tort and particularly of defamation; which in the sort of UK-based jurisdiction you have likely now traipsed into, is far more stringent than what you have become used to in the USA with its flawed Court decisions across decades. And UK based law on stalking, electronic and on the ground, is stringent also. And BTW, trying to jump in on a case of manifest abuse of parliamentary privilege to defame, is most ill advised as the ancient powers of a parliament to deal with contempt of parliament are quite serious. As Erskine May and others will attest. And those who have enabled you and others for years should know better. Not least, they need to know that things that seem acceptable step by step can enmesh them in deep shark-infested waters should those they have cossetted who show signs of dangerous instability explode nastily. As the case of Abraham Lincoln's assassination shows as the unbridled rage/hate and ill founded sense of zeal in what he perceived as his right tied to unhinged contempt for others lurking in Booth and his influence over Powell et al including the Surratt family, boiled over into sudden violent extremism. "Game" over. KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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Mung @ 454 -
From the OP:
The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival.
So? It hardly follows from this that they are not searching for less than optimal solutions or in fact just any solution at all that helps them survive.
If the populations are searching for anything (I'm not sure it's a good metaphor, but let's go with it for the moment), then it's for a part of the search space that has a higher fitness. So for a population at median fitness, the target is half of the search space! A corollary of this is that the search for the search will (I assume) tend to take place at lower fitnesses, so the search does not need to be very efficient, as the target is big.Bob O'H
April 28, 2015
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5MM, I think it would help to say 128 above, amplify Integrated Information Theory, and link the paper again: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1405.0126v1.pdf All best, KFkairosfocus
April 28, 2015
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I wrote:
No, you’re confusing materialism with a particular philosophy of science. Namely, the idea that there is only one mode of explanation in science: reductionism. Are you saying I have to be a dualist to solve the problem of making tea?
Joe:
Popperian- It’s called science- science requires an explanation with a cause that is capable of explaining what we are investigating.
Nothing in your response addresses what I actually wrote. Specially, I pointed out that reductionism is a specific view about science. Nor is it necessary when explaining physical systems in constructor theory. So, your argument is parochial in nature by way of being unnecessarily narrow in scope. See this article on reductionism.
Others argue that inappropriate use of reductionism limits our understanding of complex systems. In particular, ecologist Robert Ulanowicz says that science must develop techniques to study ways in which larger scales of organization influence smaller ones, and also ways in which feedback loops create structure at a given level, independently of details at a lower level of organization. He advocates (and uses) information theory as a framework to study propensities in natural systems.[17] Ulanowicz attributes these criticisms of reductionism to the philosopher Karl Popper and biologist Robert Rosen.[18]
This limit is exactly what constructor theory's new mode of explanation is designed to avoid. Joe: Materialism is a particular philosophy of science that posits what I posted. It's unclear which part of "what you posted" you're actually referring to. Why don't you start out by quoting what you think materialism posits. I wrote:
Just skimmed that. Didn’t see anything new regarding how cells know what variations are acceptable that was not already in your comment.
Joe:
What variations are acceptable? The variations that help. Look at the immune system- it responds to the environment.
The response "The variations that help." doesn't indicate where the knowledge of which variations are helpful should be made under which conditions (as opposed to variations that would be unhelpful) is located. For example, I can't just show up at a genetics lab and vary a bacteria to, say, eat fossil fuels. That's because I do not possess the knowledge of which variations would result in just the right proteins, which would restful in just the features "that help." If I did successfully intercede from the outside to vary such a bacteria in such a way, it would because the right knowledge of what transformations that should occur was present. Namely in me. That's my key point. So, again, in your theory that is not anti-evolution, where is the knowledge what variations that would be helpful for specific organisms under specific conditions located? I've already provided two options...
Again, if this knowledge was present at outset, did the most simple organism contain the knowledge describing the entire gamut of variations for every organism that would eventually evolve, in every environment, including the most complex that exist today? To use an example, was the knowledge for each variation response to a corresponding environmental setting that will eventually result in say, dolphins, present in oh, bacteria, at the outset? And, if it wasn’t present at the outset in organism, then why those variations, rather than some other variations? Was it present in the laws of physics at the outset instead? But that would be evolution under design-laws as indicated in the paper I referenced.
But feel free to fill in the blanks with one of your own. I wrote:
Was all the knowledge for those responses present in a bacterium for all future organisms that will evolve from it?
Joe:
That you can ask such a question after what I posted proves that you are proudly clueless.
I'm attempting to take what I think your theory is seriously, for the purpose of criticism. That's how we make progress. Yet, you've done neither to actually advance the discussion. " If your view doesn't fit one of the two above, then please indicate what your view is and how it differers from those presented. Merely saying "The ones that help" doesn't actually address the question. Again, you seem to be suggesting the knowledge was present at the outset, so where was/is it located? What form did/does it take?Popperian
April 27, 2015
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Z: Are you referring to Maguire et al., Is Consciousness Computable? Okay. Found your link above. That is the correct paper. A mathematical proof depends on its assumptions, which may or may not comport with claims about the natural world. In this case, there's a couple of evident problems with those assumptions. They define integrating function such that “the knowledge of m(z) does not help to describe m(z’), when z and z’ are close”, which is exactly contrary to how people learn and develop understanding. They also state, “An integrating function’s output is such that the information of its two (or more) inputs is completely integrated.” But we know from simple observation that people integrate information incompletely. In other words, information is always lost during the process of learning. People integrate new knowledge within the parameters of what they already know.Zachriel
April 27, 2015
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fifthmonarchyman: I would be more than happy to examine any argument for how consciousness could arise from matter in a step by step process. I’m not asking for a fully developed theory or even an informed speculation I’m only asking for a few sentences that explain how such a thing is even possible. Consciousness can be as simple as being aware of sensory inputs. The brain has memory, and that allows consideration of those sensory inputs. The memory can also be used to draw forth internal images to form models, and these models can include a model of oneself. fifthmonarchyman: Keep in mind that I have linked in this very thread mathematical proof in a peer reviewed main stream paper that such a thing is in fact impossible. Are you referring to Maguire et al., Is Consciousness Computable? Quantifying Integrated Information Using Algorithmic Information Theory, Proceedings of the 36th Annual Conference of the Cognitive Science Society 2014?Zachriel
April 27, 2015
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Mark Frank says, You have  illustrated my point! VJ is well informed enough to know that this is by no means obvious.Dualism has been rejected by very respectable people at least since Ryle’s Concept of Mind and arguably long before.  I say, I'm not advocating dualism so I'm not sure what that has to do with me. I'm only pointing out that matter can not produce consciousness by a step by step process You say, You may disagree with UP but to claim he/she is obviously wrong and therefore insincere when his/her opinion is widely held by major figures in the field is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears. I say, I think you misunderstand what is being said here. I understand that lots of smart people think that matter emerges from mind. I'm not even arguing that it can't. I'm only asking that materialists explain how such a thing is possible, they owe us that much. by the same token I would expect that if UP was truly an ID supporter he would be at least vaguely familiar with the limits of algorithmic processes. If someone claims to be an IDer and at the same time says that matter can produce mind in a step by step process I doubt their sincerity, It's not about putting my fingers in my ears it's about actually paying attention to what others are saying. I hope my blunt speaking did not just cost me membership in the polite group ;-) peacefifthmonarchyman
April 27, 2015
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UP said. I would certainly examine at least one of them. To do otherwise would be irresponsible. I say, I would be more than happy to examine any argument for how consciousness could arise from matter in a step by step process. I'm not asking for a fully developed theory or even an informed speculation I'm only asking for a few sentences that explain how such a thing is even possible. Keep in mind that I have linked in this very thread mathematical proof in a peer reviewed main stream paper that such a thing is in fact impossible. mathematical impossibility is a pretty high hurdle to jump don't you agree I would think that if a process for accomplishing the impossible had been detailed we would have heard about it. UP says, We are talking about the nature of consciousness. A subject that one side of the argument admits is not settled. I say, I'm sorry but it is settled. If unitary consciousnesses exists it is not computable. In other words it can not be arrived at by a step by step process. There is no debating mathematics it's either true or not. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 27, 2015
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AS, you have a turnabout, he hit back first problem. I am fairly sure TB is a years long operator of a major hate site and a slander specialist. What you see or may have seen above is a minor, toned down sample of what we have been dealing with and which several attack sites have been hosting/ facilitating/ enabling to different degrees. When you jumped on me for pointing to suspicious timing and enabling behaviour issues, this operator is, I am fairly confident, one of my major concerns. KFkairosfocus
April 27, 2015
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PPS: 313 clips Marks and Dembski, showing how the OP misrepresents the link between Needle in haystack blind search, Active information and FSCO/I.kairosfocus
April 27, 2015
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AS:
Jon Bartlett has been the only ID proponent so far making an attempt to address the OP, notwithstanding the late flurry by mung.
A statement in disregard of truth both presented in the thread from its earliest stages and subsequently brought to your attention when you attempted in 250 above, to sweep away a range of responses. This speaks volumes, again and reflects a longstanding pattern on your part. FTR, I point to 304 above, which is a round-up that deals with the first couple of dozen comments, by which point the OP was sufficiently answered and shown to be a forest of strawman caricatures: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/signal-to-noise-a-critical-analysis-of-active-information/#comment-561159 KF PS: Onlookers, the need to make reference to the long FTR at 304 did not have to wait for years, within days it has proved its worth. AS et al forever after cannot claim to have not had cogent detailed reply, without resorting to false assertion. Which what was done at 250 proves a willingness to resort to.kairosfocus
April 27, 2015
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Aurelio:
The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context.
That is the whole point, duh. However in an ID context it is a search and active information makes complete sense.
Active information is no more useful at establishing “design” from “non-design” than the “explanatory filter” of yore and the concept of CSI.
Umm active information refers to the information computer programs have- those programs that are alleged to simulate unguided evolution, ie natural selection and such. They wouldn't find their solutions without it. Dr Spetner's built-in responses to environmental cues is an example of active information in biology. The EF works and the concept of CSI is still sound. You just have no idea what you are saying and you think your ignorance means something. Strange.Joe
April 27, 2015
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truthblower- ALL living organisms contain CSI. You are obviously too stupid to grasp that simple fact. I read the ignorant spewage on TSZ, they are a clueless lot and exemplify all that is wrong with humanity. I see that you cannot support any of your accusations. Typical cowardly sock puppet.Joe
April 27, 2015
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