From time to time materialists come into these pages and argue that DNA is not a true “code.” This proves nothing other than that materialists are often quite shameless in the arguments they make to prop up their religious views. We would do well to remind that that arch-materialist Richard Dawkins did not get the memo. Testifying against interest he writes:
After Watson and Crick, we know that genes themselves, within their minute internal structure, are long strings of pure digital information. What is more, they are truly digital, in the full and strong sense of computers and compact disks, not in the weak sense of the nervous system. The genetic code is not a binary code as in computers, nor an eight-level code as in some telephone systems, but a quaternary code, with four symbols. The machine code of the genes is uncannily computerlike. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular-biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer-engineering journal. . . .
Our genetic system, which is the universal system of all life on the planet, is digital to the core. With word-for-word accuracy, you could encode the whole of the New Testament in those parts of the human genome that are at present filled with “junk” DNA – that is, DNA not used, at least in the ordinary way, by the body. Every cell in your body contains the equivalent of forty-six immense data tapes, reeling off digital characters via numerous reading heads working simultaneously. In every cell, these tapes – the chromosomes – contain the same information, but the reading heads in different kinds of cells seek out different parts of the database for their own specialist purposes. . . .
Genes are pure information – information that can be encoded, recoded and decoded, without any degradation or change of meaning. Pure information can be copied and, since it is digital information, the fidelity of the copying can be immense. DNA characters are copied with an accuracy that rivals anything modern engineers can do.
Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden, 16-19
Yet another excellent post.
“This proves nothing other than that materialists are often quite shameless in the arguments they make to prop up their religious views.”
Priceless!
Yea know, Dawkins is mostly, well, wrong. However, he has spoken good truth a couple of times. This is one of them. The other time that comes to mind is that he sees creationism, even young earth creationism, as an hypothesis that is within the scope of scientific inquiry. He doesn’t think it is a correct hypothesis, but he does see it as falsifiable, therefore within the scope of scientific inquiry.
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Finding one code in DNA was bad enough for Darwinists:
As I said, finding one code in DNA was bad enough for Darwinists, its origin belonging to ‘the former age of miracles’ according to one Darwinist, but now we know that there are multiple overlapping codes in DNA which makes the ‘former age of miracles’, a far, far, far, worse problem for Darwinists:
At the 10:30 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Trifonov states that Dawkin’s idea of the selfish gene ‘inflicted an immense damage to biological sciences’, for over 30 years:
In the preceding video, Trifonov elucidates codes that are, simultaneously, in the same sequence, coding for DNA curvature, Chromatin Code, Amphipathic helices, and NF kappaB. In fact, at the 58:00 minute mark he states, “Reading only one message, one gets three more, practically GRATIS!”. And please note that this was just an introductory lecture in which Trifinov just covered the very basics and left many of the other codes out of the lecture. Codes which code for completely different, yet still biologically important, functions. In fact, at the 7:55 mark of the video, there are 13 codes that are listed on a powerpoint, although the writing was too small for me to read.
Concluding powerpoint of the lecture (at the 1 hour mark):
Verse:
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Professor Denis Noble interview by TBS
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
I wonder, how many of us pray that Dawkins comes to see the Truth and believes in Christ?
Prayer has been proven to work in double blind studies. Pray for Dawkins, maybe, just maybe…
jimmontg @11:
That’s a good point. Thank you.
But let’s remember there are friends -including some ID proponents who comment and even write OPs in this blog- who may not have the saving faith either.
Let’s pray for them too. God loves them.
One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord, but by then it might be too late for many nice folks in this world. The moment is now.
Rev. 22:21
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
semi OT:
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Obviously, the actual functioning can be explained as more information comes out research. In some areas of biology the complete picture is still missing, but gradually being filled up.
The problem is explaining how we got all that complex functionality.
In order to explain how biological systems work, all we have to do is get more information from research.
The overwhelming volume of information coming out of both wet and dry labs seems to indicate that many serious dedicated scientists are passionately working on trying to figure out how exactly biological systems work in different scenarios.
Generally they seem heading in the right direction, though sometimes taking ‘long and winding’ paths based on wrong assumptions and false presuppositions, incorrectly following reductionist bottom-up approaches to describe complex information-processing systems that obviously appear to be the result of top-down design.
However, understanding exactly how things work is not the same as understanding exactly how we got them to begin with. The former may be required for the latter, but they are separate issues that demand different kinds of investigative approaches.
I may know exactly how my bike works, hence I can maintain it in good condition. However, don’t ask me how exactly it was produced.
PS. Emphasis mine.
Note the bold text:
unwanted? why?
Also, professor Noble leaves the door open with the bold sentence. 🙂
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
The 3rd way of evolution attacking the establishment?
No one can threaten professor Denis Noble with losing his job. That’s why he can afford to rebel against the Neo-Darwinian empire. Also, who’s going to argue with him and his “3rd way” colleagues, who know as much or more biology than the establishment folks? 🙂
I don’t want to miss the future episodes of this debate between the establishment and the 3rd way rebels. 🙂
Meanwhile, many seriously dedicated scientists continue to work passionately in wet and dry labs trying to figure out how exactly the amazingly complex information-processing biological systems work.
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
The problem is how exactly could that happen?
No one knows. No one.
🙂
Dionisio: Not sure what all these consecutive posts are meant to convey. Please give me the short summary pitch. Thank you.
Truth Will Set You Free @25
It’s showing interesting parts of an interview of professor Denis Noble at the blog The Best Schools, where they refer to Dawkins. Since this OP is also related to Dawkins, I thought some folks visiting this thread would like to read what Noble said about Dawkins and Neo-Darwinism too. The interview is relatively long, but I quoted what I think are the most interesting parts, specially related to the person this OP mentions in the title.
Looking back, I should have posted this in the 3rd way of evolution thread instead of here. Or perhaps should have posted just the link to the interview. Or better yet, shouldn’t have posted anything at all, thus saving myself precious time I could use on better things. After all, who am I to suggest any reading material? Right?
Thank you for alerting me.
BTW, what does “Truth Will Set You Free” mean?
Of course DNA is information. Barry says occasionally materialists visit the site and deny this? Do they? Then they are morons. What Dawkins describes is entirely consistant with evolution. DNA, or rather dicreet units of DNA, code for proteins which then make their coded for, bodily necessities; skin, bone, whatever other cells.
What on earth is DNA except a huge parcel of information, much of it, unused, or inaccessable.
This is what Dwkins elequently expresses. We use the human word, ‘information’, to poorly describe what is going on; the inherited, and heritable construction plans, honed by millions of years of cut and paste.
rvb8: We use the human word, ‘information’, to poorly describe what is going on; the inherited, and heritable construction plans, honed by millions of years of cut and paste.
Although Shannon very early in his writings eschewed any discussion of meaning or philosophical implications of his work, much of which I’m familiar with, I think the many times I have discussed this on this thread show that information is meaningless outside the context of mind. Stochastic events can take on the role of furnishing information when they are studied which requires a mind. Obviously a mind can supply information. But the idea that stochastic events can furnish information that exists independent of a mind, or that requires no role for any mind is the biggest blunder of philosophical materialism. You have no way around this. This is because Darwinian evolution is unfalsifiable. Hence it is a story. No more no less.
groovamos @ 28: I have said it many times on this site…rvb8 is insane. Either that, or he is just goofing around and having fun with the stuff he spouts on this site.
Dionisio @ 26: See John 8:32
And I have said it many times that there is an inherent impolite nature to this site. It seems to have two sets of posting rules; strict and rigourously enforced for atheists, and rather more loosely applied to creationists.
“rvb8 is insane”. Well argued TWSYF.
By the way your moniker is alarmingly similer to, ‘Arbreit macht frei!’
RVB8, DNA is obvious machine code, and such is inherently informational. Information, being a linguistic term used to denote certain important classes of phenomena well known to us as living in an information age. You seem to be going down the road of denial of patent reality, never a healthy sign. It inadvertently testifies to the force of the facts of information systems in the cell. KF
PS: I think you will be well advised to pause before trying to associate a classic statement of Jesus in the NT — “ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free” — with the lying motto above the gate of Auschwitz. That level of trollish snideness and attempted tainting is beyond the pale, blasphemous and inexcusable.
Truth Will Set You Free @29:
You did not mention if my reply @26 answered your request @25. Should I assume it did? Was it clear?
Truth Will Set You Free @29:
Thank you for pointing to the source of that phrase.
BTW, do we understand the whole context it was said in?
Do we understand the verses 31 & 32 together?
Do we understand what they mean and the implications they have for anyone who claims to be Christian?
Are we followers of the One who said that? Or are we just His fans?
Truth Will Set You Free @29:
I noticed a law firm in NC linked to your blog identifier. Are you related to that office?
Truth Will Set You Free @29:
You wrote to groovamos referring to your interlocutor from NZ in not so nice terms.
Do you think it’s good for someone who publicly claims to be a Christian to refer to someone else in such derogatory terms, just because they think differently?
Not long ago the New Zealander interlocutor said (i.e. wrote) very clearly his motives for commenting here. Apparently you missed reading it. I’ll try to find it to post it here for your information.
If you truly believe the author of the phrase you use as your identifier in this blog, then you know that we all, including the New Zealander interlocutor, were made in IMAGO DEI, hence we all have the dignity that automatically comes from that fact.
Our Lord taught us the positive (proactive) version of the golden rule (Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31). The passive (negative) version was known much earlier.
Is it right for us to call someone ‘insane’ just because we don’t like what they say or write?
Would we like to be called that name for saying things others don’t understand?
Actually, we are called derogatory names for telling others about the only true source of Life, but we should let Christ handle that for us. We don’t have the power or authority required for that task.
We should have a compassionate heart towards the spiritually lost, remembering that God loved us long before we loved Him back. Only He can cure spiritual blindness.
Let’s just pray for those who still cannot rejoice in the Lord. Let’s share that greatest joy with all.
Soli Deo Gloria.
rvb8 @30:
First, please allow* me to correct your misspellings:
English:
It’s ‘similar’ instead of ‘similer’. Maybe they use the latter in NZ? 🙂
German:
It’s ‘arbeit’ instead of ‘arbreit’.
What’s the similarity you see between those two phrases?
Why is it alarming?
(*) formally asked for permission to suggest the spelling correction in this case because English is not my first language. Usually my comments have many misspelled words too, but I blame the editor autocorrect feature or the fact that my first language is not English (we humans like to find external excuses for everything we do wrong, don’t we?). In any case I like and appreciate to be corrected, because I may learn from it. 🙂
RVB8 (27) “We use the human word, ‘information’, to poorly describe what is going on; the inherited, and heritable construction plans, honed by millions of years of cut and paste.”
Um, in my opinion you started this comment very correctly, “Of course DNA is information.” Dawkins also has said, “Genes are pure information”. I disagree with you when you use the word poorly when you say, “poorly describe what is going on”.
However, you over-make a valid point. We IDers tend to overload the term information with our belief that “information” = intelligent cause. This has not been proven — at least to the satisfaction of the greater scientific community.
I say that you over-make your point because you say, “honed by millions of years of cut and paste.” In this statement you strongly declare that information most surely can come into existence without intelligence. In overstating this claim, you negate your obligation to provide an evidentiary proof.
Your only proof, Dawkins’ only proof is philosophical, metaphysical. Premise 1, there was no intelligence back when DNA based information was established. Premise 2, DNA contains information. Conclusion, information can come into existence without intelligence.
Our challenge is to premise 1.
A code is an intellectual concept. A code is an arrngement of symbols that can be implemented in various mediums. In the case of living origanisms that medium is the DNA. A code can only be created by a mind. In the case of the DNA code, as well as any code created by man, a code must not only solve the current design problem, but it also must anticipate future applications.
NielBJ, you say, “A code can only be created by a mind.”
Rvb8 says, “the inherited, and heritable construction plans, honed by millions of years of cut and paste.”
I say that these declarative statements on either of your parts, without proof, are just nattering.
DNA stores literally coded information
http://reasonandscience.heaven.....nformation
Paul Davies :
“DNA is not a special life-giving molecule, but a genetic databank that transmits its information using a mathematical code. Most of the workings of the cell are best described, not in terms of material stuff — hardware — but as information, or software. Trying to make life by mixing chemicals in a test tube is like soldering switches and wires in an attempt to produce Windows 98. It won’t work because it addresses the problem at the wrong conceptual level.”
Inside each and every one of us lies a message. It is inscribed in an ancient code, its beginnings lost in the mists of time. Decrypted, the message contains instructions on how to make a human being.
Although DNA is a material structure, it is pregnant with meaning. The arrangement of the atoms along the helical strands of your DNA determines how you look and even, to a certain extent, how you feel and behave. DNA is nothing less than a blueprint—or, more accurately, an algorithm or instruction manual—for building a living, breathing, thinking human being.
Kairos,
‘beyond the pale’? Possibly. ‘Inexcusable’? Possibly. ‘Blasphemous?’ No! Sorry, to you definately, as you believe someone is listening. But to an atheist, blasphemy is an empty accusation. As you should know, we believe there is nothing to offend that is not materially present.
Did I insult TWSYF? Sure, but to use schoolyard jargon, ‘only coz he did it first!’
You have the classic ability of all of the religious to be instantly offended (much like the university ‘snowflakes’), and yet not grasp that your own ideas of ‘election’, ‘worship’, ‘abjectness’, ‘guilt’,are to atheists more ‘inexcusable’. And they are inexcusable to us, because there is no good reason why the evidence before you, presented in a clear and accessable way, should be ignored; now that is truly offensive!
Thank you, Dionisio. I am indeed a poor speller. It has nothing to do with my country of birth, merely lazy:) You have the job of my spell checker; remuneration is non-existant.
RVB8, you are simply revealing a fundamental incivility and profound disrespect driven by the sort of ill-advised sense of superiority that in a parallel thread is leading you to join Pindi in making yourselves into poster children of the irretrievable incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism. (Origines at 133 is a classic: http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-617371 ) Above, a citation from a famous statement by Jesus [one that lies behind for instance the Harvard Uni motto] was twisted into a reference to Nazism. That is utterly beyond the pale, and it fully deserves the strictures I made. Further to this, you need to ask yourselves why there are universally recognised limits to verbal and physical public behaviour; in my part of the world, sometimes termed broughtupcy. You and your ilk need to ask yourselves, whether you would be willing to say some of the things you routinely write online, while sitting in the living rooms of those you obviously view as targets to play rhetorical one upmanship with. As in, it seems that you are revealing the basic amorality of evolutionary materialstic scientism and its invitation to the nihilistic mentality, that might and manipulation — I can get away with it — determine ‘right’ ‘truth’ etc. As in, bags of chemicals have no true rights, selves or dignity; or, as Francis Schaeffer used to summarise long ago now, man on your view is a zero. No need to spin out a tangent, you just told us a lot about yourself and your ilk, regarding some pretty ugly basic motives, intents and attitudes which you would be well advised to reconsider and change profoundly. Good day. KF
F/N: On the substance of this thread, I note, that it is patent to anyone with experience of machine and/or register transfer level processing in computational substrates, that DNA acts as machine code in a molecular nanotech based information processing system. This implies DNA is essentially linguistic and code is an empirically and analytically strongly supported signature of language using intelligence at work. It is the force of that simple inference that leads to the endless attempts to block or dismiss it. As the incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism becomes ever more evident, thus its blinding nature . . . if one believes and is committed to a falsity as a yardstick of truth it leads one to dismiss the real truth as it will not conform to a false yardstick . . . the basic force of the inference will tell. That is why Dawkins’ testimony on record against known interest is worth noting and commenting on. KF
rvb8 is a willfully blind fool unworthy of respect. He gets none from me.
As shown in various preceding comments, according to professor Denis Noble and other scientists proposing the ‘third way of evolution’, Dawkins made serious mistakes in his description of biological reality.
There’s more to biology than the DNA and the outdated central dogma.
In a recent paper we read this interesting analogy:
Ave Verum Corpus:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/HXjn6srhAlY
Truth Will Set You Free @44:
Would you mind responding the other questions @32-35?
Thank you.
Jos de Mule, Dutch philosopher
“Noble versus Dawkins”
DNA is not the program of the concert of life.
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
TheBestSchools blog
Professor Denis Noble interview
http://www.thebestschools.org/.....interview/
Kairos asks if I would say the things I say in the homes of believing Christians.
I most certainly would not! My mother raised a person with far too many good manners to show disrespect to any individual’s beliefs, however absurd.
Would I say them to a guest in my own house? Hmm, depends upon the stupidity of the guest. If they said they were Christian, and left it that, then no. If the said they were Christian and then attempted preaching, then yes, they would get an earful, in MY home.
Sound fair Kairos? Or is mocking ‘the Lord of Hosts’, in MY own home also beyond your childishly constructed, ‘pale’?
My thoughts on the contents of the coding regions of DNA being code in the truest sense of the word were expressed here:
http://www.uncommondescent.com.....of-codons/