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Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information

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The following is a guest post by Aurelio Smith. I have invited him to present a critique of Active Information in a more prominent place at UD so we can have a good discussion of Active Information’s strengths and weaknesses. The rest of this post is his.


My thanks to johnnyb for offering to host a post from me on the subject of ‘active information’. I’ve been following the fortunes of the ID community for some time now and I was a little disappointed that the recent publications of the ‘triumvirate’ of William Dembski, Robert Marks and their newly promoted postgrad Doctor Ewert have received less attention here than their efforts deserve. The thrust of their assault on Darwinian evolution has developed from earlier concepts such as “complex specified information” and “conservation of information” and they now introduce “Algorithmic Specified Complexity” and “Active information”.

Some history.

William Demsbski gives an account of the birth of his ideas here:

…in the summer of 1992, I had spent several weeks with Stephen Meyer and Paul Nelson in Cambridge, England, to explore how to revive design as a scientific concept, using it to elucidate biological origins as well as to refute the dominant materialistic understanding of evolution (i.e., neo-Darwinism). Such a project, if it were to be successful, clearly could not merely give a facelift to existing design arguments for the existence of God. Indeed, any designer that would be the conclusion of such statistical reasoning would have to be far more generic than any God of ethical monotheism. At the same time, the actual logic for dealing with small probabilities seemed less to directly implicate a designing intelligence than to sweep the field clear of chance alternatives. The underlying logic therefore was not a direct argument for design but an indirect circumstantial argument that implicated design by eliminating what it was not.*

[*my emphasis]

Dembski published The Design Inference in 1998, where the ‘explanatory filter’ was proposed as a tool to separate ‘design’ from ‘law’ and ‘chance’. The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. Wesley Elsberry’s review points out the failure to include unknown causation as a possibility. Dembski acknowledges the problem in a comment in a thread at Uncommon Descent – Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson

I wish I had time to respond adequately to this thread, but I’ve got a book to deliver to my publisher January 1 — so I don’t. Briefly: (1) I’ve pretty much dispensed with the EF. It suggests that chance, necessity, and design are mutually exclusive. They are not. Straight CSI [Complex Specified Information] is clearer as a criterion for design detection.* (2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger. (3) As for the applicability of CSI to biology, see the chapter on “assertibility” in my book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION. (4) For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com. (5) There’s a paper Bob Marks and I just got accepted which shows that evolutionary search can never escape the CSI problem (even if, say, the flagellum was built by a selection-variation mechanism, CSI still had to be fed in).

[*my emphasis]

Active information.

Dr Dembski has posted some background to his association with Professor Robert Marks and The Evolutionary Informatics Lab which has resulted in the publication of several papers with active information as an important theme. A notable collaborator is Winston Ewert Ph D, whose master’s thesis was entitled: Studies of Active Information in Search where, in chapter four, he criticizes Lenski et al., 2003, saying:

[quoting Lenski et al., 2003]“Some readers might suggest that we stacked the deck by studying the evolution of a complex feature that could be built on simpler functions that were also useful.”

This, indeed, is what the writers of Avida software do when using stair step active information.

What is active information?

In A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search, Dembski, Ewert and Marks (henceforth DEM) give their definition of “active information” as follows:

In comparing null and alternative searches, it is convenient to convert probabilities to information measures (note that all logarithms in the sequel are to the base 2). We therefore define the endogenous information IΩ as –log(p), which measures the inherent difficulty of a blind or null search in exploring the underlying search space Ω to locate the target T. We then define the exogenous information IS as –log(q), which measures the difficulty of the alternative search S in locating the target T. And finally, we define the active information I+ as the difference between the endogenous and exogenous information: I+ = IΩ – IS = log(q/p). Active information therefore measures the information that must be added (hence the plus sign in I+) on top of a null search to raise an alternative search’s probability of success by a factor of q/p. [excuse formatting errors in mathematical symbols]

They conclude with an analogy from the financial world, saying:

Conservation of information shows that active information, like money, obeys strict accounting principles. Just as banks need money to power their financial instruments, so searches need active information to power their success in locating targets. Moreover, just as banks must balance their books, so searches, in successfully locating targets, must balance their books — they cannot output more information than was inputted.

In an article at the Pandas Thumb website Professor Joe Felsenstein, in collaboration with Tom English, presents some criticism of of the quoted DEM paper. Felsenstein helpfully posts an “abstract in the comments, saying:

Dembski, Ewert and Marks have presented a general theory of “search” that has a theorem that, averaged over all possible searches, one does not do better than uninformed guessing (choosing a genotype at random, say). The implication is that one needs a Designer who chooses a search in order to have an evolutionary process that succeeds in finding genotypes of improved fitness. But there are two things wrong with that argument: 1. Their space of “searches” includes all sorts of crazy searches that do not prefer to go to genotypes of higher fitness – most of them may prefer genotypes of lower fitness or just ignore fitness when searching. Once you require that there be genotypes that have different fitnesses, so that fitness affects their reproduction, you have narrowed down their “searches” to ones that have a much higher probability of finding genotypes that have higher fitness. 2. In addition, the laws of physics will mandate that small changes in genotype will usually not cause huge changes in fitness. This is true because the weakness of action at a distance means that many genes will not interact strongly with each other. So the fitness surface is smoother than a random assignment of fitnesses to genotypes. That makes it much more possible to find genotypes that have higher fitness. Taking these two considerations into account – that an evolutionary search has genotypes whose fitnesses affect their reproduction, and that the laws of physics militate against strong interactions being typical – we see that Dembski, Ewert, and Marks’s argument does not show that Design is needed to have an evolutionary system that can improve fitness.

I note that there is an acknowledgement in the DEM paper as follows:

The authors thank Peter Olofsson and Dietmar Eben for helpful feedback on previous work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, feedback that has found its way into this paper.

This is the same Professor Olofsson referred to in the “Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson thread mentioned above. Dietmar Eben has blogged extensively on DEM’s ideas.

I’m not qualified to criticize the mathematics but I see no need to doubt that it is sound. However what I do query is whether the model is relevant to biology. The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”. There is the source of the active information.

I was recently made aware that this classic paper by Sewall Wright, The Roles of Mutation, Inbeeding, Crossbreeding and Selection in Evolution, is available online. Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

Perhaps, in conclusion, I should emphasize two things. Firstly, I am utterly opposed to censorship and suppression. I strongly support the free exchange of ideas and information. I strongly support any genuine efforts to develop “Intelligent Design” into a formal scientific endeavor. Jon Bartlett sees advantages in the field of computer science and I say good luck to him. Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt. Had Sewall Wright been developing his ideas in the computer age, his laboriously hand-crafted diagrams would, I’m sure, have evolved (deliberate pun) into exquisite computer models.

References

History: Wm Dembski 1998 the Design inference, explanatory filter ( Elsberry criticizes the book for using a definition of “design” as what is left over after chance and regularity have been eliminated)

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

Elsberry & Shallit

Theft over Toil John S. Wilkins, Wesley R. Elsberry 2001

Computational capacity of the universe Seth Lloyd 2001

Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and
Dembski’s “Complex Specified Information”
Elsberry and Shallit 2003

Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by William A. Dembski August 15, 2005

Evaluation of Evolutionary and Genetic
Optimizers: No Free Lunch
Tom English 1996

Conservation of Information Made Simple William Dembski 2012

…evolutionary biologists possessing the mathematical tools to understand search are typically happy to characterize evolution as a form of search. And even those with minimal knowledge of the relevant mathematics fall into this way of thinking.

Take Brown University’s Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist whose knowledge of the relevant mathematics I don’t know. Miller, in attempting to refute ID, regularly describes examples of experiments in which some biological structure is knocked out along with its function, and then, under selection pressure, a replacement structure is evolved that recovers the function. What makes these experiments significant for Miller is that they are readily replicable, which means that the same systems with the same knockouts will undergo the same recovery under the same suitable selection regime. In our characterization of search, we would say the search for structures that recover function in these knockout experiments achieves success with high probability.

Suppose, to be a bit more concrete, we imagine a bacterium capable of producing a particular enzyme that allows it to live off a given food source. Next, we disable that enzyme, not by removing it entirely but by, say, changing a DNA base in the coding region for this protein, thus changing an amino acid in the enzyme and thereby drastically lowering its catalytic activity in processing the food source. Granted, this example is a bit stylized, but it captures the type of experiment Miller regularly cites.

So, taking these modified bacteria, the experimenter now subjects them to a selection regime that starts them off on a food source for which they don’t need the enzyme that’s been disabled. But, over time, they get more and more of the food source for which the enzyme is required and less and less of other food sources for which they don’t need it. Under such a selection regime, the bacterium must either evolve the capability of processing the food for which previously it needed the enzyme, presumably by mutating the damaged DNA that originally coded for the enzyme and thereby recovering the enzyme, or starve and die.

So where’s the problem for evolution in all this? Granted, the selection regime here is a case of artificial selection — the experimenter is carefully controlling the bacterial environment, deciding which bacteria get to live or die*. [(* My emphasis) Not correct – confirmed by Richard Lenski – AF] But nature seems quite capable of doing something similar. Nylon, for instance, is a synthetic product invented by humans in 1935, and thus was absent from bacteria for most of their history. And yet, bacteria have evolved the ability to digest nylon by developing the enzyme nylonase. Yes, these bacteria are gaining new information, but they are gaining it from their environments, environments that, presumably, need not be subject to intelligent guidance. No experimenter, applying artificial selection, for instance, set out to produce nylonase.

To see that there remains a problem for evolution in all this, we need to look more closely at the connection between search and information and how these concepts figure into a precise formulation of conservation of information. Once we have done this, we’ll return to the Miller-type examples of evolution to see why evolutionary processes do not, and indeed cannot, create the information needed by biological systems. Most biological configuration spaces are so large and the targets they present are so small that blind search (which ultimately, on materialist principles, reduces to the jostling of life’s molecular constituents through forces of attraction and repulsion) is highly unlikely to succeed. As a consequence, some alternative search is required if the target is to stand a reasonable chance of being located. Evolutionary processes driven by natural selection constitute such an alternative search. Yes, they do a much better job than blind search. But at a cost — an informational cost, a cost these processes have to pay but which they are incapable of earning on their own.

Meaningful Information

Meaningful Information Paul Vit´anyi 2004

The question arises whether it is possible to separate meaningful information from accidental information, and if so, how.

Evolutionary Informatics Publications

Conservation of Information in Relative Search Performance Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Algorithmic Specified Complexity
in the Game of Life
Ewert, Dembski, Marks 2015

Digital Irreducible Complexity: A Survey of Irreducible
Complexity in Computer Simulations
Ewert 2014

On the Improbability of Algorithmic Specified
Complexity
Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Actually, in my talk, I work off of three papers, the last of which Felsenstein fails to cite and which is the most general, avoiding the assumption of uniform probability to which Felsenstein objects.

EN&V

Dietmar Eben’s blog

Dieb review “cost of successful search

Conservation of Information in Search:
Measuring the Cost of Success
Dembski, Marks 2009

The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of
Higher Level Search
Dembski, Marks 2009

Has Natural Selection Been Refuted? The Arguments of William Dembski Joe Felsenstein 2007

In conclusion
Dembski argues that there are theorems that prevent natural selection from explaining the adaptations that we see. His arguments do not work. There can be no theorem saying that adaptive information is conserved and cannot be increased by natural selection. Gene frequency changes caused by natural selection can be shown to generate specified information. The No Free Lunch theorem is mathematically correct, but it is inapplicable to real biology. Specified information, including complex specified information, can be generated by natural selection without needing to be “smuggled in”. When we see adaptation, we are not looking at positive evidence of billions and trillions of interventions by a designer. Dembski has not refuted natural selection as an explanation for adaptation.

ON DEMBSKI’S LAW OF CONSERVATION OF INFORMATION Erik Tellgren 2002

Comments
Joe, for more refutations of your "key component in ID thinking" that pertains to the OP, go to TSZ. Of course you'll only be able to read, not comment, because you were banned for posting your infamous "tunie" photo there. You're the only person ever banned there.truthbringer
April 27, 2015
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Yeah, Joe, I knew you would chicken out of calculating aardvark CSI and FIASCO. How about this: calculate, for comparison, the CSI and FSCO/I in a new born human baby and a newborn chimpanzee, and in a 20 Year old human and chimp. Show your work. Maybe kairosfocus, your enabler, fellow traveler, and supporter and defender of your direct and implied threats of physical harm against people (at least one threat from your work computer got you fired from a job), will help you with your calculations.truthbringer
April 27, 2015
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Aurelio:
Jon Bartlett has been the only ID proponent so far making an attempt to address the OP...
All evidence to the contrary, of course.
I was hoping for a little more interest in a supposedly key component in ID thinking.
We were hoping for a real criticism of of a key component in ID thinking. Your attempt was poor and the people you relied on had already been proven clueless.Joe
April 27, 2015
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Smith, I read your OP to the point you stated: The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. ...and I knew there was no reason to involve myself further.Upright BiPed
April 27, 2015
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Mung @ 451 I think I've done very good. I've merely watched and ... and ... kept my mouth shut. :)Upright BiPed
April 27, 2015
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From the OP:
The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival.
So? It hardly follows from this that they are not searching for less than optimal solutions or in fact just any solution at all that helps them survive.
Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide.
Right. Like you remained passive and just waited to be fed the last time your were hungry. Not likely. By the way, last time you fed yourself did you go searching for the optimal meal?
Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide.
An organisms that affords itself of the opportunities is not passive in the process. Stop insulting us.Mung
April 27, 2015
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Aurelio Smith:
Fitness peaks can erode and erupt. Had Sewall Wright been developing his ideas in the computer age, his laboriously hand-crafted diagrams would, I’m sure, have evolved (deliberate pun) into exquisite computer models.
Perhaps something like a hill climbing search algorithm. Wright:
Estimates of the total number of genes in the cells of higher organisms range from 1000 up.
That many!Mung
April 27, 2015
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truthbringer, You are brain dead. That you ask this:
how much CSI and FSCO/I is there in a female aardvark vs. a male aardvark?
Proves it. When have I equivocated and misrepresented? You are a liar. I know that every time I get accused of such a thing I support my claims while my accusers just keep accusing. You are a poster boy for cry babies.Joe
April 27, 2015
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Our position has been that higher-order consciousness, which includes the ability to be conscious of being conscious, is dependent on the emergence of semantic capabilities and, ultimately of language.
Elizabeth must have seen Upright BiPed heading this way. Do they not understand that there were already semantic capabilities in every cell? Maybe cells are conscious too.Mung
April 27, 2015
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CSI and FSCO/I are dead, Joe, but just for some laughs, how much CSI and FSCO/I is there in a female aardvark vs. a male aardvark? Show your work. Are CSI and FSCO/I exactly the same thing? "Yet they choose to equivocate and misrepresent. And when called on it they get all high and mighty and nasty and belligerent. Then they run back to their respective swamps to declare victory. Pathetic" Says the poster boy for equivocation, misrepresentation, nasty and belligerent, running back to his swamp to declare victory, and being pathetic. kf and Arrington have you beat in the high and mighty department, but not by a lot.truthbringer
April 27, 2015
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Mung: When is the last time I insulted you Mark? Just wondering. Mark: I am being unfair to you and apologise for that. Well, I was just thinking that maybe you're due. I'd hate for you to feel left out! ;) I have been and can be insulting. But I get insulted all the time by people posting here, some of them are even quite nice about it, but it's still insulting. If I say something is "nonsense" what I mean is, please stop insulting my intelligence, i.e., you're insulting me. So if that's all I say it's actually rather restrained. :DMung
April 27, 2015
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Lizzie, Is this the biology-to-consciousness mechanism you were referring to? *consciousness depends on the emergence of language*
Our position has been that higher-order consciousness, which includes the ability to be conscious of being conscious, is dependent on the emergence of semantic capabilities and, ultimately of language. [source: Edelman and Tononi, "A Universe Of Consciousness: How Matter Becomes Imagination", p.208.]
Box
April 27, 2015
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truthbringer has one valid point. CSI and FSCO/I are gibberish to the simple-minded. It is a prediction of both CSI and FSCO/I that our opponents will try to make a FIASCO out of them because they sure as hell can't actually address them. Prediction fulfilled. Thank you. And the sad part is all the have to do is step up and model unguided evolution- produce testable hypotheses for it and then test them. If successful then ID is doomed. Yet they choose to equivocate and misrepresent. And when called on it they get all high and mighty and nasty and belligerent. Then they run back to their respective swamps to declare victory. PatheticJoe
April 27, 2015
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kf, you're full of it. You've got NOTHING to report to "the local authorities" or any other "authorities". You're just making up all of your malicious accusations and you know it, I know it, and lots of other people know it. Didn't the "President" of this hate-site recently say that assertions aren't evidence? All you've got are assertions, Gordon, and they're all lies. They're just a part of the childish professional victim game you play to make it look as though you're a persecuted messiah like the imaginary character jesus. You poor thing. LOL Your cowardly leader, "President" Arrington, deleted my last comment and others will likely soon follow. Why are you IDers such cowards? You're terrified to face reality out in the open. You obviously believe that you're winning some sort of victory here in your sanctuarial echo chamber but you're just making fools of yourselves and showing the "onlookers" how corrupt and gutless you are. Now, Gordon, go and type several thousand more words filled with lies and FIASCO gibberish, and convince yourself that you're a super hero. I'll be laughing my ass off.truthbringer
April 27, 2015
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TB, it seems there is someone else who cannot even get the message sent by the functionally specifi complex organisation of a fishing reel, much less a protein synthesis system. And BTW, your quarrel is with Orgel and Wicken, not me, but then you likely have not read what hey have stated on record since the 1970's, never mind it is cited in this very thread. Which of course underscores the point I have repeatedly made about lack of any serious intent to engage actual evidence facts and logic on the part of too many objectors to design thought -- who seem to be here only to project agit-prop talking points. Schoolyard level name-twisting taunts, TB, say a lot, a lot that is not to your credit. KF PS: Let me again clip, just for reference, from my IOSE summary page: http://iose-gen.blogspot.com/2010/06/introduction-and-summary.html#fsci_sig >> D: The significance of complex, functionally specific information/ organisation The observation-based principle that complex, functionally specific information/ organisation is arguably a reliable marker of intelligence and the related point that we can therefore use this concept to scientifically study intelligent causes will play a crucial role in that survey. For, routinely, we observe that such functionally specific complex information and related organisation come-- directly [[drawing a complex circuit diagram by hand] or indirectly [[a computer generated speech (or, perhaps: talking in one's sleep)] -- from intelligence. In a classic 1979 comment, well known origin of life theorist J S Wicken wrote:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
The idea-roots of the term "functionally specific complex information" [FSCI] are plain: "Organization, then, is functional[[ly specific] complexity and carries information." Similarly, as early as 1973, Leslie Orgel, reflecting on Origin of Life, noted:
. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196. Of course, that immediately highlights OOL, where the required self-replicating entity is part of what has to be explained (cf. Paley here), a notorious conundrum for advocates of evolutionary materialism; one, that has led to mutual ruin documented by Shapiro and Orgel between metabolism first and genes first schools of thought, cf here. Behe would go on to point out that irreducibly complex structures are not credibly formed by incremental evolutionary processes and Menuge et al would bring up serious issues for the suggested exaptation alternative, cf. his challenges C1 - 5 in the just linked. Finally, Dembski highlights that CSI comes in deeply isolated islands T in much larger configuration spaces W, for biological systems functional islands. That puts up serious questions for origin of dozens of body plans reasonably requiring some 10 - 100+ mn bases of fresh genetic information to account for cell types, tissues, organs and multiple coherently integrated systems. Wicken's remarks a few years later as already were cited now take on fuller force in light of the further points from Orgel at pp. 190 and 196 . . . ]
Thus, the concept of complex specified information -- especially in the form functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] -- is NOT a creation of design thinkers like William Dembski. Instead, it comes from the natural progress and conceptual challenges faced by origin of life researchers, by the end of the 1970's. Indeed, by 1982, the famous, Nobel-equivalent prize winning Astrophysicist (and life-long agnostic) Sir Fred Hoyle, went on quite plain public record in an Omni Lecture:
Once we see that life is cosmic it is sensible to suppose that intelligence is cosmic. Now problems of order, such as the sequences of amino acids in the chains which constitute the enzymes and other proteins, are precisely the problems that become easy once a directed intelligence enters the picture, as was recognised long ago by James Clerk Maxwell in his invention of what is known in physics as the Maxwell demon. The difference between an intelligent ordering, whether of words, fruit boxes, amino acids, or the Rubik cube, and merely random shufflings can be fantastically large, even as large as a number that would fill the whole volume of Shakespeare’s plays with its zeros. So if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.” [[Evolution from Space (The Omni Lecture[ --> Jan 12th 1982]), Enslow Publishers, 1982, pg. 28.]
So, we first see that by the turn of the 1980's, scientists concerned with origin of life and related cosmology recognised that the information-rich organisation of life forms was distinct from simple order and required accurate description and appropriate explanation. To meet those challenges, they identified something special about living forms, CSI and/or FSCO/I. As they did so, they noted that the associated "wiring diagram" based functionality is information-rich, and traces to what Hoyle already was willing to call "intelligent design," and Wicken termed "design or selection." By this last, of course, Wicken plainly hoped to include natural selection. But the key challenge soon surfaces: what happens if the space to be searched and selected from is so large that islands of functional organisation are hopelessly isolated relative to blind search resources? For, under such "infinite monkey" circumstances , searches based on random walks from arbitrary initial configurations will be maximally unlikely to find such isolated islands of function . . . >> Y'know, just a few dismissible IDiots -- NOT -- such as Orgel, Wicken and Hoyle. PPS: The Marxists I had to deal with in the 1970's and 80's were very real, up close and personal. The Cess demonstrations incident of confrontation with Harmon Barracks paramilitaties n blocking Old Hope Road was very real. The spreading of the subversive ideas of a certain Neo-Marxist, Saul D Alinsky since the 1960's is very real, and is more and more characterising commonly seen patterns of "Community Organiser" and "Grassroots" [Astroturf] agitators, who do use agit prop techniques that were rooted in places such as Moscow, Frankfurt and Chicago. Most of those cught up in such nihilism do not have aclue the roots of what they are doing. And the cyberstalking and likely on the ground stalking I have had to deal with are real issues, not figments of imagination. Your mocking dismissal o what you either do not know anything about but are willing to enable, or else do know about but wish to enable, speaks tellingly about you. Someone, I suspect is -- from the perhaps significant echo of another web handle belonging to a cyberstalker and hate web site operator -- maybe right in the heart of it. FYI, I just had a follow up conversation with the local authorities.kairosfocus
April 27, 2015
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I summarised in 273 and 299. I can go into more detail if you want, but the key is the re-entrant looping of simulated output of action as input into action selection. But frankly I've had enough of this thread. If you want to continue, I will be at TSZ. UDEditors: WJM says that EL won’t even offer us her summary of the biology-to-consciousness mechanism supposedly described in the book. EL responds that she provided a summary of the mechanism in 273 and 299. Both of those comments are reproduced below and we invite our readers to read them in detail. Now, unless providing a "summary of the biology-to-consciousness mechanism" she claims exists means "ruminate about high level specutations without even a nod toward providing even a single detail regarding the mechanism of how one gets from chemicals to consciousness," EL's claim to have summarized a mechanism is false. I see that EL has retreated back to her echo chamber at TSZ with her tail between her legs. EL, come on back when you are ready. But if you post false claims about how the materialist have found the mechanism by which chemicals become subjectively self-aware, expect to be called down again. Here is 273 in its entirety: @Box: In my view, yes. But to some extent it’s a philosophical issue – if you accept Chalmer’s formulation of the Hard Problem then no. I don’t buy his formulation. I think it contains a philosophical error. But I’m not enough of a philosopher to be able to articulate just where it is, and I could be wrong! But I think the essence of the answer lies in our capacity simulate the outputs of our actions before we execute them and feedback those outputs as inputs into the action-selecting process. That allows us to both anticipate and remember in what Edelman calls a “remembered present”, in which past and possible futures are integrated. But that should really be for another thread! This one is about Ewert, Dembski and Mark’s concept of Active Information Here is 299 in its entirety: Barry: I do not “admit” that “no such process has been described”. Such a process has been described in all the sources I mentioned, and in many journal papers. In other words, we have a proposed explanation, not merely an assertion that “it’s emergent”, which is what you claimed, and which, I agreed, would not be an explanation. We certainly do not have “the details” – what we have is a explanatory model, and which, like all scientific models, is provisional. The problem with the explanation, however, is that unlike most topics in science, there is controversy over whether the phenonomenon it seeks to explain, consciousness, can ever be operationally defined, i.e. defined in such a way that its presence or absence can be objectively detected. Without such a definition, no theory of consciousness can be tested. That is why Chalmers described the problem as “Hard” (not merely “hard”). So the Hard Problem of Consciousness, as formulated by Chalmers, can never be “solved”, and there is no literature that anyone can ever cite that will tell you that it has been. Any explanatory model must be predicated on a different formulation of the problem. So any scientific solution to the problem is only as good as the philosophical formulation it is premised on, and, as I said, that in itself is controversial. But the issue isn’t (as you claimed) that people have tried to palm off “it’s emergent” as an explanation. Emergent properties abound in scientific models, and nobody that I know of would consider merely labelling a property as “emergent” as constituting an explanation for that property. For instance “suction” is an emergent property of a tornado, but nobody expect “suction is emergent” to constitute an explanation for why tornados are able to lift heavy objects high in the air. And it was to counter that claim of yours (that people were palming off “it’s emergent” as an explanation for consciousness), that I presented you with literature in which actual explanatory models are offered. These are fairly convergent, in fact, and as I said earlier, tend to involve the re-entrant looping of simulated output back as input into action-selection processes. Therefore I did not lie. I do not lie. But they cannot constitute a solution to Chalmers Hard Problem, because it, by definition, cannot be solved empirically. [It might be worth moving this side discussion to its own thread - it has nothing to do with the OP.] Elizabeth Liddle
April 27, 2015
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That may be true. But it is good reason for inspecting your assumptions and not rejecting any alternative as insincere.
Other than EL's unsupported say so, I have no reason to suspect the book contains what she claims it contains, because she has (1)provided no pertinent quotes, and (2)won't even offer us her summary of the biology-to-consciousness mechanism supposedly described in the book. If EL is sincere, she is free to provide quotes and summarize the theoretical biology-to-consciousness mechanism for us.William J Murray
April 27, 2015
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Mung #436
When is the last time I insulted you Mark? Just wondering.
I am being unfair to you and apologise for that. Looking back at your comments you come nowhere close to the other three. I just got the impression of a set of insults but it is more stuff like  #104, #105, #106, #108 above (just responding “nonsense” without any explanation) which seems rather pointless and aggressive but is not insulting. For a more direct example: So all these materialists who claim that morality is subjective are just full of **it. It is not a big deal. As I said this sort of thing is typical of any internet discussion group.  A lot of anti-IDists (probably including myself from time to time) do it. It only seems a bit much when people start lecturing Lizzie about her behaviour when in fact she is rather remarkable in showing respect to opponents and  refraining from anything personal.Mark Frank
April 27, 2015
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One of the best UD threads in a while. William J Murray delivers the death blow @ 325mike1962
April 27, 2015
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Vel- Not all students get the same answers even though they are taught the same material. How many equations do you think can satisfy the answer of 42?Joe
April 27, 2015
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SimonLeberge, Can a computer execute a search algorithm?Mung
April 27, 2015
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OT: Back in Navy boot camp, many moons ago, I would drag my boots while marching in order to create noise. The noise of my doing so was often drowned out by the cries of my mates telling me to shush. It's as funny now as it ever was. The way to reduce noise is not to add to it.Mung
April 27, 2015
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Joe: Yes that is an example of built-in responses to environmental cues. Except all colonies did not evolve the ability even though they started out identical.velikovskys
April 27, 2015
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Mark Frank:
Barry/Joe/Mapou/Mung’s strings of insults are tedious but no different from most internet debating sites and you can just ignore them
When is the last time I insulted you Mark? Just wondering.Mung
April 27, 2015
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So, Aurelio, when are you going to start that critical analysis of active information?Mung
April 27, 2015
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Mark Frank:
You have illustrated my point! VJ is well informed enough to know that this is by no means obvious.
Yet well informed people know that it is obvious.Joe
April 27, 2015
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A simple example is evolution in Lenski’s long-term evolution experiment.
Yes that is an example of built-in responses to environmental cues.Joe
April 27, 2015
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FM: "If I gave you a list of several people who claimed to give possible scenarios where by a square could give rise to a circle would you feel that it would be necessary to study their proposals in depth before pronouncing them to be either “sewage” or “bluff”?" I would certainly examine at least one of them. To do otherwise would be irresponsible. But we are not talking about something that is a certainty, or as close to one as possible. We are talking about the nature of consciousness. A subject that one side of the argument admits is not settled. Unfortunately it is not the ID side if I can go by the comments here. EL, even though I disagree with her has expressed her view logically and politely. Barry simply responds by calling it bluff and sewage. You don't have to take my word for it. You don't even have to understand the subject. Just read the comments and tell me who comes a cross as a pompous arrogant buffoon. As you seem to be one of the reasonable voices here, I think that when you review the comments you will agree with me.unwilling participant
April 27, 2015
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WJM
That respected and major figures agree to a thing does not make that thing any less foolish or logically absurd
That may be true. But it is good reason for inspecting your assumptions and not rejecting any alternative as insincere.Mark Frank
April 27, 2015
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MF said:
Dualism has been rejected by very respectable people at least since Ryle’s Concept of Mind and arguably long before. You may disagree with UP but to claim he/she is obviously wrong and therefore insincere when his/her opinion is widely held by major figures in the field is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears.
That respected and major figures agree to a thing does not make that thing any less foolish or logically absurd.William J Murray
April 27, 2015
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