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The Conway Morris Disclaimer

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Simon Conway MorrisJohnnyb has already posted on this here at UD, but I thought it might be good to have the full disclaimer at the new Map of Life website up for your consideration here:

The message? First, that evolution is true. Forms of life change over time, or evolve, as successive generations inherit genetic, epigenetic or cultural information that is modified relative to their ancestors. Features of the changing environment in which organisms live favour differential survival of individuals with the most suitable (or ‘adapted’) modifications for living there. This leads to change in species over time, or their extinction if the environment changes too fast for ecologically well-adapted variants to become established. Of note, the science of evolutionary biology is NOT consistent with the central tenet of the “intelligent design” (ID) movement that suggests, contrary to all scientific evidence, that amongst other things organisms were supernaturally created and have remained unchanged since the time of their creation. There is also NO evidence for biological structures being supposedly “irreducibly complex”, arising by non-evolutionary “processes”. Indeed, convergence points in exactly the opposite direction because supposedly “irreducibly complex” structures, such as the bacterial flagellar motor, evolved independently at least twice. Not only that but we understand how each of the component parts became adapted make the complex structure that exists today. The existence of change over time in living things is clearly manifest in the fossil record, and is supported by information from the molecules, form and behaviour of organisms alive today. SOURCE

Simon Conway Morris, who clearly is the author of this piece, is a smart guy. So why does he so completely mischaracterize intelligent design? Speaking for myself, I’ve been saying this till the cows come home that (1) design can be implemented through an evolutionary process (albeit a non-Darwinian one) and (2) design does not require supernatural intervention.

Funny thing, Conway Morris might, if he could lay aside his sneering contempt, find good friends and interesting conversation partners in the ID community. But to keep Templeton moneys rolling in and maintain a shine of respectability among his Cambridge colleagues (at least those are my best guesses), it helps to diss ID. Interestingly, he’s not going to buy himself acceptance among the hardcore materialists, for whom his halting metaphysical gestures at teleology will be totally unacceptable and get him branded a creationist among atheists like Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers, and Richard Dawkins.

Comments
Sonfaro, The only time I used the word "all" in my post at 11 was when I wrote "This is the(ir) constant theme and play and it is the same ALL the time though it comes in different forms." And while a bit of an over statement it is generally true. The vast majority of people who argument vehemently against ID arguing in fallacies conflating it with Biblical creationism. And I mean THE VAST majority. As for the part about the reasons why I think they hate ID- I would say most are just jealous of other people's faith - and not because they CANT understand ID. While it is true that the press and class rooms (to some degree) are guilty of misrepresenting ID - or omitting it altogether- and as a direct effect the people fail to understand ID due to this bad education - it is also true, and the bottom line, is that those who misunderstand ID do so because they fail to research it for themselves and read it from the writings of the IDists (ID theorists) who propose it. That is, their emotional bias prevents them from ever giving ID a chance to begin with. As Einstein put it "The fanatical atheists, are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses' cannot hear the music of the spheres."Frost122585
March 17, 2011
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"For the most part, when someone claims they are “theistic evolutionists” they really mean they are theistic Darwinists." ... which is logically equivalent to saying, "I'm a theistic atheist," or, "I'm a theistic materialist."Ilion
March 17, 2011
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Jeffrey Helix - Sounds like you have an interesting story to tell - I'd love to hear it! If you get a chance, send me an email at jonathan.bartlett@blythinstitute.orgjohnnyb
March 17, 2011
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"Speaking for myself, I’ve been saying this till the cows come home that (1) design can be implemented through an evolutionary process (albeit a non-Darwinian one) ..." Even the most "literal" (as everyone says) understanding of Genesis reveals God creating the Heavens and Earth in an evolutionary manner, and in the original meaning of the term ‘evolution.’ There is, after all, a *reason* that Saint Chuckie avoiding, as much as possible, using the word ‘evolution’ to denote his so-called theory: the word’s meaning is inherently teleological.Ilion
March 17, 2011
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Hi Jeff, As a relative newbie to all this myself I'd like to give you as hearty welcome as I can! WELCOME! ;-) - SonfaroSonfaro
March 17, 2011
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Dembski, If I were devoting this comment strictly to explaining how much your work has changed my worldview, I'm not sure I would find the words to explain it (Assuming that I would be able to finish it of course). Along with the other folks with the CSC, you really shifted my focus in life permanently, and I mean that in a good way. We've met briefly over a year ago (signing a copy of the Design of Life), and I really didn't say much because frankly I didn't know where to start. In the coming years I hope to really boost the number of people who value your work for what it is. While we definitely have some disagreements in some areas, they are trivial compared to the big picture that is ID. Very glad to be a part of this now, and for everyone else, thanks for the welcomes/dialogue in the last post about front-loading. I can tell I will be a regular visitor here for some time to come. :)Jeffrey Helix
March 17, 2011
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Hi Frost122585, You write: -"I submit that people against intelligent design are against it for emotional and NOT scientific reasons." I would agree that MOST feel this way, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement and say ALL. Some may be genuinely confused by how ID proponents come to their conclusions. Also, I'd reconsider this: -"They are JEALOUS of people’s faith- because hey have none of their own and they too proud to develop any through research and prayer- so naturally by they are against anything that supports it by default." Again, while some may be jealous, I don't think all of them would be. I think some just genuinely hate religion because of perceived problems it leads humanity to and think Intellegent Design is a religious movement by nature. We should be careful with absolutes when dealing with groups of people I think. Regards, - SonfaroSonfaro
March 17, 2011
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I submit that people against intelligent design are against it for emotional and NOT scientific reasons. I have debated these people many a time online and other places and their ONLY primary argument is that ID IS creationism in disguise) which of course is not true and at best a fallacy by false analogy. But it seems to be somewhat effective propaganda and at the same time what they personally wish to believe. When I say there is no likely chance that the universe could have developed such that it could sustain complex functional life - they answer by saying "Snakes cannot talk, virgins cannot give birth and man cannot raise from the dead." So the ONLY play they have is to take super natural claims - or near super natural claims- found in Biblical scripture and use them to provoke a hyper emotional reaction- all for the goal of conflating ID with Biblical scripture- and convincing people that the debate is about whether the Bible is literally true. This is nothing but just a bait and switch. This is the constant theme and play and it is the same ALL the time though it comes in different forms. The reason they do this is because they hate ID- they hate its implications and they hate the faith that it inspires in people who DO believe in God. They are JEALOUS of people's faith- because hey have none of their own and they too proud to develop any through research and prayer- so naturally by they are against anything that supports it by default.Frost122585
March 17, 2011
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bornagain77 -- James Valentine (who also appeared on Darwin's Dilemma) issued a disclaimer regarding the film, stating:
I wish to clarify my role in the new film Darwin’s Dilemma. When I was interviewed about a decade ago for the material used in this movie, I was unaware that this interview might appear in a film promoting intelligent design. My appearance should not be misconstrued as support for any creationist agenda. I support evolution. I disagree with the view that the best explanation for the Cambrian record is the action of an “intelligent designer” instantaneously creating phyla. Had the filmmakers bothered to read my book On the Origin of Phyla, they would have understood that I do not support a creationist interpretation of the Cambrian explosion or the fossil record. Scientific findings in many fields, including my own (paleobiology) as well as geology, geophysics, geochemistry, developmental biology, and systematics, have led to a synthesis of the events surrounding the Cambrian explosion that is in full accord with well-established evolutionary principles. When watching Darwin’s Dilemma, I ask viewers to note: • My interview statements do not criticize evolution • My interview statements do not promote creationism or intelligent design • Even though my interview is interspersed with several intelligent design advocates, I do not share their interpretation of the Cambrian record I would like viewers to know: • I think evolution is the best scientific interpretation of the fossil record • While the religious views of individuals should be respected, scientists also merit respect earned by generations of hard work in their fields Dr. James Valentine University of California, Berkeley
Simon Conway Morris may have similar feelings. If anyone is aware of a statement from Morris concerning the movie, do let me know. JJonathan M
March 17, 2011
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One further point on 'convergence' that Dr. Morris mentioned; The fact that convergence is noted to the genetic level, not only the morphological level,,,,; Bat and Whale Echolocation Genes Point to Common Design - February 2011 - Casey Luskin - Podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2011-02-21T10_59_16-08_00 Convergence Drives Evolution Batty - Fazale Rana - September 2010 Excerpt: The multiple, independent origin of echolocation in these animals (twice in bats and once in toothed whales) exemplifies convergence,,, When examined from an evolutionary perspective, convergence doesn’t make much sense.,,, the latest research demonstrates that—again, from an evolutionary perspective—the genetic and biochemical changes that account for the emergence of echolocation in bats and dolphins is identical. Given the random nature of the evolutionary process, this recent discovery doesn’t match what evolutionary biologists would expect to find. But both the discovery and convergence make sense if life stems from the work of a Creator. http://www.reasons.org/convergence-drives-evolution-batty ,,, this identical 'convergence', especially all the way to the genetic level, only makes since from a perspective of a designer reusing the same designs since it is conclusively shown that evolution is 'historically contingent',,, ,,,Lenski's work actually did do something useful in that it proved that 'convergent evolution' is impossible because it showed that evolution is 'historically contingent'. This following video and article make this point clear: Lenski's Citrate E-Coli - Disproof of Convergent Evolution - Fazale Rana - video (the disproof of convergence starts at the 2:45 minute mark of the video) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4564682 The Long Term Evolution Experiment - Analysis Excerpt: The experiment just goes to show that even with historical contingency and extreme selection pressure, the probability of random mutations causing even a tiny evolutionary improvement in digestion is, in the words of the researchers who did the experiment, “extremely low.” Therefore, it can’t be the explanation for the origin and varieity of all the forms of life on Earth. http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v12i11f.htmbornagain77
March 17, 2011
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Frankly I was glad to see Dr. Morris had the courage to be a part of the 'heretical' ID film 'Darwin's Dilemma',, Dilemma part 1 of 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYBs0l8qGF4 ,,but regardless of the respect I have for Dr. Morris's bravery to actually be seen in public with ID proponents, in a movie no less, I must take exception to this point of his in the excerpted piece,,,
There is also NO evidence for biological structures being supposedly “irreducibly complex”, arising by non-evolutionary “processes”. Indeed, convergence points in exactly the opposite direction because supposedly “irreducibly complex” structures, such as the bacterial flagellar motor, evolved independently at least twice. Not only that but we understand how each of the component parts became adapted make the complex structure that exists today.
Actually there is no evidence at all that anything ever evolved: in spite of the fact of finding molecular motors permeating the simplest of bacterial life, there are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of even one such motor or system. "There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist The following expert doesn't even hide his very unscientific preconceived philosophical bias against intelligent design,,, ‘We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity,,, Yet at the same time the same expert readily admits that neo-Darwinism has ZERO evidence for the chance and necessity of material processes producing any cellular system whatsoever,,, ,,,we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.’ Franklin M. Harold,* 2001. The way of the cell: molecules, organisms and the order of life, Oxford University Press, New York, p. 205. *Professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, Colorado State University, USA Michael Behe - No Scientific Literature For Evolution of Any Irreducibly Complex Molecular Machines http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5302950/ “The response I have received from repeating Behe's claim about the evolutionary literature, which simply brings out the point being made implicitly by many others, such as Chris Dutton and so on, is that I obviously have not read the right books. There are, I am sure, evolutionists who have described how the transitions in question could have occurred.” And he continues, “When I ask in which books I can find these discussions, however, I either get no answer or else some titles that, upon examination, do not, in fact, contain the promised accounts. That such accounts exist seems to be something that is widely known, but I have yet to encounter anyone who knows where they exist.” David Ray Griffin - retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology Much less, contrary to dr. Morris's claims, has anyone refuted the flagellum by 'co-option' or any other method, In fact there is a lively discussion on that very point right now in which the Darwinists are not fairing well at all in their defense of evolution. You may see that 'spectacle' here; Michael Behe Hasn't Been Refuted on the Flagellum - March 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/michael_behe_hasnt_been_refute044801.html Has Dr. Morris ever really looked at the staggeringly complex way the flagellum is constructed? The Bacterial Flagellum – Truly An Engineering Marvel! - December 2010 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-bacterial-flagellum-truly-an-engineering-marvel/ Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994630 as well Surely Dr. Morris is well aware of the fact that the fossil record is not nearly as conducive to the Darwinian framework as mis-characterizes it to be?!? Shoot he was in Darwin's Dilemma!!!bornagain77
March 17, 2011
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myname: Darwinism is not the only possible evolutionary process. Frontloading, for instance, is also an evolutionary process, but has much different implications. For the most part, when someone claims they are "theistic evolutionists" they really mean they are theistic Darwinists. Darwinism was invented to remove teleology from the question of life history. But Darwinism doesn't have to be true. If, for instance, life was *programmed* to evolve a certain way, that is both evolutionary and consistent with ID. This is much different than the theistic Darwinists who say that "natural selection did it, but we will also say that God did it because we are Christians". Note that in such a formulation, design is an afterthought appendage, not a part of the theory itself. Adding design language to the theory of Darwinism is just adding a decoration. If someone believes that evolution happens because it is specifically programmed to do so, then they are saying that it required programming. This is much different than the Darwinian expectation. So, in summary, with ID, you can push back design as far as you like, but you don't get *less* design when you do so. The point of Darwinism is to get the design smaller and smaller as you push it back until it disappears or is at least completely unnoticeable.johnnyb
March 17, 2011
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myname, QuiteID, Not to speak for others more knowledgeable on the subject, but my guess would be the difference lies in the ability to detect the design in one instance, and not in the other. An ID Evolutionist (Behe, for example) would claim that an evolutionary process occurs, but that it is guided by an intelligent agent in a way that is empirically detectable. TEs would claim we cannot find evidence of such "tampering" in nature, and that if G-d does guide the process, he does so at the quantum level, by setting the initial conditions at the Big Bang, or perhaps somewhere equally undetectable. In short, they can accept guidance as long as it is not empirically detectable. I don't want to speak for TEs, however, so I'll defer to anyone who wants to give a better explanation of the difference in the two positions. I simply have a strong feeling Dr. Dembski would claim that if evolution was in fact used as a design mechanism, the design would still be objectively detectable. AtomAtom
March 17, 2011
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TE has a problem with a contradiction between Darwinian evolution as a blind, undirected natural process and God as a Creator of human beings. They want to say both things but they appear to be contradictory. Francis Collins resolved this problem by saying God ran a brute force, random search in his Mind through all possible universes (even though he scoffs at the multiverse hypothesis) and picked the one that resulted in human beings... Which sort of begs the question of how God made sure the universe he made physical actually followed the blueprint intelligently selected from a random pool of universes. Is it really random then?tragic mishap
March 17, 2011
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myname, I had the same question. I've been dissatisfied with theistic evolution because, in the words of Dr. Dembski,
As far as design theorists are concerned, theistic evolution is American evangelicalism's ill-conceived accommodation to Darwinism. What theistic evolution does is take the Darwinian picture of the biological world and baptize it, identifying this picture with the way God created life. When boiled down to its scientific content, theistic evolution is no different from atheistic evolution, accepting as it does only purposeless, naturalistic, material processes for the origin and development of life.
But that is from an essay written for theologians. From a purely scientific perspective, I'm a bit fuzzy on the distinction.QuiteID
March 17, 2011
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This is an honest question and I really don't want to offend anyone.
design can be implemented through an evolutionary process
If the design was implemented through an evolutionary process how would that be different from theistic evolution if you exchange God for the designer?myname
March 17, 2011
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The flagellar motor evolved at least twice, and that's evidence against ID? I'm trying to wrap my mind around how that could work. The case Behe makes concerning the flagellum is a probability sort of argument. He doesn't say there is some logical impossibility involved in nature doing it without intelligent guidance, he's saying that it's highly improbable that nature could have done it in that way. But if it's improbable that nature could have done it that way once, it's improbable-squared that nature did it twice, independently. How does that count against ID? Conway Morris might say, "Well, we know nature did that. Just look: we have two independently evolved flagellar systems right here. So we know it must have happened." But that would be begging the question most blatantly. Does he have a better argument than that? Also (just wondering) do we actually understand "how each of the component parts became adapted make the complex structure that exists today"? Besides the TTSS, are there other sub-parts of the flagellum for which other corresponding assemblies have been found outside the flagellum, and for which evolutionary pathways to the flagellum have been proposed? Conway Morris makes it sound like all the flagellum's parts have been figured out that way. That would be news to me.TomG
March 17, 2011
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Gosh, I am really glad someone is saying this: "Simon Conway Morris, who clearly is the author of this piece, is a smart guy. So why does he so completely mischaracterize intelligent design? Speaking for myself, I’ve been saying this till the cows come home that (1) design can be implemented through an evolutionary process and (2) design does not require supernatural intervention." My view: SCM must mischaracterize ID because, like most self-proclaimed Christians, he would face a horde of bawling Darwin trolls (funded, in most places, at government expense). Few people with family or friends to support can afford that. I only ever jumped in myself (just hack somewhere)because ... well, what was the alternative? I always said I lived the truth. So I should start saying stuff I know isn't true?O'Leary
March 17, 2011
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