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The Groupthink Syndrome

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Read the following and ask yourself which side in the ID vs. Darwinism debate exhibits the groupthink syndrome:

The groupthink syndrome: Review of the major symptoms
Source: http://www.swans.com/library/art9/xxx099.html

In order to test generalization about the conditions that increase the chances of groupthink, we must operationalize the concept of groupthink by describing the symptoms to which it refers. Eight main symptoms run through the case studies of historic fiascoes. Each symptom can be identified by a variety of indicators, derived from historical records, observer’s accounts of conversations, and participants’ memoirs. The eight symptoms of groupthink are:

1. an illusion of invulnerability, shared by most or all the members, which creates excessive optimism and encourages taking extreme risks;

2. collective efforts to rationalize in order to discount warnings which might lead the members to reconsider their assumptions before they recommit themselves to their past policy decisions;

3. an unquestioned belief in the group’s inherent morality, inclining the members to ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions;

4. stereotyped views of enemy leaders as too evil to warrant genuine attempts to negotiate, or as too weak and stupid to counter whatever risky attempts are made to defeat their purposes;

5. direct pressure on any member who expresses strong arguments against any of the group’s stereotypes, illusions, or commitments, making clear that this type of dissent is contrary to what is expected of all loyal members;

6. self-censorship of deviations from the apparent group consensus, reflecting each member’s inclination to minimize to himself the importance of his doubts and counterarguments;

7. a shared illusion of unanimity concerning judgments conforming to the majority view (partly resulting from self-censorship of deviations, augmented by the false assumption that silence means consent);

8. the emergence of self-appointed mindguards – members who protect the group from adverse information that might shatter their shared complacency about the effectiveness and morality of their decisions.

When a policy-making group displays most or all of these symptoms, the members perform their collective tasks ineffectively and are likely to fail to attain their collective objectives. Although concurrence-seeking may contribute to maintaining morale after a defeat and to muddling through a crisis when prospects for a successful outcome look bleak, these positive effects are generally outweighed by the poor quality of the group’s decision-making. My assumption is that the more frequently a group displays the symptoms, the worse will be the quality of its decisions. Even when some symptoms are absent, the others may be so pronounced that we can predict all the unfortunate consequences of groupthink.

Comments
Jerry wrote: "We have seen no evidence for the gradualism mechanism as advocated by Darwin and his neo Darwin successors. The fossil record is empirical evidence enough to falsify that position." And here, I would pretty much agree with you. As Eldredge and Gould first pointed out in 1972, the fossil record does not support the gradualist model that Darwin implied and that later was institutionalized in the "modern evolutionary synthesis." As Will Provine has pointed out, the "synthesis" was actually more of a "constriction," as it tended to put primacy of place on mathematical models of allele frequency change in populations, to the exclusion of all other arguments. What made Eldredge and Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium so controversial was that it shook the foundations of the "synthetic" (i.e. mathematical-model-based) theory and pointed out that theory should conform to empirical observations (i.e. the fossil record), and not the other way around. The accrimony that "punk eek" generated within the community of evolutionary biologists was certainly as intense as that between EBers and IDers today, and still lingers in some quarters. However, what seems to me to be the big difference so far is that supports of punk eek did the hard work of finding and presenting empirical evidence for the theory, and have now begun the exciting work of tying it to evo-devo mechanisms. That, in my opinion, is how science proceeds, and why to date I have such a low opinion of most IDers. Jerry also wrote: "Such mechanisms as co-option, lateral transfer of genetic information, other massive changes to a genome such as gene duplication make nice academic discussions but we have yet to see examples where this could be the engine of allele changes or allele creation that is necessary to explain the diversity of life over the last 540 million years." On the contrary, my good friend Lynn Margulis has spent the last three decades providing extremely detailed empirical evidence in favor of the hypothesis that much significant macroevolutionary change has come about through what she and her son Dorian have called "acquiring genomes" (from the recent book of the same name. That is, the lateral combination of genetic systems from unrelated organisms by the process of symbiosis, especially endosymbiosis. The origin of eukaryotic cells is only example of how such lateral genetic recombination can produce an immense amount of genetic and developmental novelty, none of it explainable using the limited mathematical machinery of the "modern synthesis." If it sounds like I'm critical of the neo-darwinian "synthesis," that's because I am. And I'm not alone: Will Provine has shown repeatedly that virtually all of the central tenets of the "modern synthesis" of circa 1959 have been superceded or shown to be unsupported by the evidence. Should this surprise anyone? After all, the "modern synthesis" is now almost a half century old. Has physics changed much since 1959? Chemistry? Developmental genetics? That's the nature of science: it changes over time as the result of new discoveries. Theories get modified all the time, and sometimes what seems to be central to a discipline is what must be changed. But none of this happens via press release or appeals to the lay public. Science is not democratic: no amount of voting or slick advertising can alter the value of the gravitational constant or change the AUG start codon for methionine. Science evolves as the result of the hard, often slogging work of researchers in the field and laboratory, who formulate and test hypotheses using empirical methods and statistical analysis. So far, the vast majority of IDers have not deigned to participate. Until they do, what they do cannot be considered science. Public relations perhaps, or some amalgam of PR and politics, mixed at times with religious proselitizing. But not science...Allen_MacNeill
October 15, 2006
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"My argument will be that Darwinism is the only known theory that is in principle capable of explaining certain aspects of life. If I am right it means that, even if there were no actual evidence in favour of Darwinian theory (there is, of course) we should still be justified in preferring it over all rival theories. " Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (1996) pp.287-288 Is this dogma or sound scientific reasoning? Would Dawkins justify this statement because the materialism requirement of science disqualifies ID?russ
October 15, 2006
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1. an illusion of invulnerability, shared by most or all the members, which creates excessive optimism and encourages taking extreme risks; Which is illustrated nicely by Ernst Mayr who, after the first Wistar confernce proclaimed-
Somehow or other by adjusting these figures we will come out all right. We are comforted by the fact that evolution has occurred.
Then there is the fact that common descent is first assumed and then "confirming" evidence gathered. However there is still no way to test the original assumption! 2. collective efforts to rationalize in order to discount warnings which might lead the members to reconsider their assumptions before they recommit themselves to their past policy decisions; This was observed (and carries on today) after "Darwin's Black Box" was first published and irreducible complexity was popularized. I could go on but it is obvious the conditions in the OP match anti-IDists to a tee. I wonder if DR McNeil tells his students that we don't even know what makes an organism what it is beyond the following (from geneticist Giusseppe Sermonti):
The scientist enjoys a privilege denied the theologian. To any question, even one central to his theories, he may reply “I’m sorry but I do not know.” This is the only honest answer to the question posed by the title of this chapter. We are fully aware of what makes a flower red rather than white, what it is that prevents a dwarf from growing taller, or what goes wrong in a paraplegic or a thalassemic. But the mystery of species eludes us, and we have made no progress beyond what we already have long known, namely, that a kitty is born because its mother was a she-cat that mated with a tom, and that a fly emerges as a fly larva from a fly egg.
Does he tell his students that the materialistic anti-ID position is nothing more than "sheer-dumb-luck"? If not, why not?Joseph
October 15, 2006
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Allen, You say that most anti-evolutionists provide no empirical evidence. Maybe that is too broad a characterization but it is far from true. The anti evolutionists is a misnomer for most of us as Gil Dodgen says most of believe in change in life forms over time. What we dispute is the mechanism for these changes. We have seen no evidence for the gradualism mechanism as advocated by Darwin and his neo Darwin successors. The fossil record is empirical evidence enough to falsify that position. Such mechanism as co-option, lateral transfer of genetic information, other massive changes to a genome such as gene duplication make nice academic discussions but we have yet to see examples where this could be the engine of allele changes or allele creation that is necessary to explain the diversity of life over the last 540 million years. It would be nice if you could present such information some place and not just refer to a blog where it may or may not be embedded some place. No one else who has come here has been able to do so and unless you have some definitive cites and examples we will have to say the same about your comment. I recently went through a semester course of videos on biology that Berkeley posts on their website and the evolution section failed to do what I have asked so I assume the information does not exist or why would not Berkeley present it.jerry
October 15, 2006
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The Groupthink Syndrome aplies perfectly to the Darwinian priesthood, specially points 4, 5 and 6.Mats
October 15, 2006
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"...in general, I have found that most anti-evolution group members begin with the unshakeable position that no amount of empirical evidence can possibly make them change their beliefs." Speaking as a YEC myself, I would say that I'm open minded, but there is no evidence that would change my mind. That is, if presented with solid empirical evidence for evolution I would change my position, but such evidence does not exist. Certainly I've never seen any. (which is the basis of my belief that it does not exist)StephenA
October 15, 2006
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John A Hewitt, not an ID supporter, writes of his views on the Groupthink Syndrome. "I spent spent many years working as a scientist but, during those years, I was very disappointed to find that professional colleagues were generally reluctant to engage in the kind of rational debate that is usually taken to characterize science. Put bluntly, my experience was that many, though by no means all, real scientists commonly engage in various forms of deception. Even quite extreme acts such as the theft of other workers' results, misrepresentation and lying are all common patterns of behavior. Nowadays I realize that such experiences are quite common and that studies into the history and sociology of science indicate that, in varying degrees and despite the contrary propaganda, disingenuous or deceitful debating tactics have always been widespread in science. In practice scientific debate does not seem like a real search for truth. Rather it seems like a multiplayer game in which, though formal rules are asserted to exist, those rules are never enforced. In science, the referees are never willing to blow their whistle and, as a result, many players just seek to win their game, whatever game they may perceive it to be, by any means, fair or foul."idnet.com.au
October 15, 2006
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To everyone else- my apologies for having to bring that all up again, but I'm not going to let Al come into a thread, whine about personal attacks, apologize for his personal attacks at Brayton's site, then come here and attack Bill, Denyse, and "people like [us] on this website [UD]" as having no decency, no morals, etc. It's just silly. If you come into a forum attacking someone with a MAJOR overreaction and call them bigots, you have little to nothing of meaning to add to the conversation. If I start of my comment saying "You are all bigoted scumbags with no moral fiber..." then there's no possible way to have a civil discussion. Allen has proven himself on at least 3 occassions incapable of being civil (at Brayton's site and twice here at UD). When someone comes here and starts attacking the people and not their ideas or their actions, we should expose it. I don't know Allen, and with his VERY rude attitude here, I frankly don't care to know him, but the quote above is accurate and that's all I'm attacking. I'm attacking his actions and his comments. He can't live by his own rules to attack a person's ideas and not the person, but hopefully the rest of us can. And hopefully we can do our best to ignore those who call us bigots and worse, but do our best to let others know the true nature of those who called us bigots to begin with. I'd like to finally second the comment that ID isn't anti-evolution. That's a distortion to trick the general public into equating ID with creationism (which I have nothing against, but let's be honest on what ID is and what it isn't.)JasonTheGreek
October 15, 2006
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Allen. I will bring this up again, just to remind others here how full of it you are. You said this above about Dr. Dembski:
I can understand your bitterness as the result of the Baylor affair, but does that give you the right to attack me in what virtually anyone would recognize as pure ad hominem viciousness? What happened to arguing propositions on their intellectual merits? Are you that much less of a gentleman and a scholar as my friend and colleague Hannah Maxson?
BUTm uh oh!...this is your comment to Denyse and Bill in another post here on the website:
“This is precisely the reason why I find people like you folks on this website so utterly without moral or intellectual fiber of any kind…in particular William Demski. You assume a priori that Wilson is disingenuous and cynical in his call for cooperation between evangelicals and scientists to save the creation, and therefore ignore (and even heap abuse on) his message. This kind of behavior is what one expects from bigots…so I’m not surprised to find it here. There is a reason why people like Dembski and yourselves are reviled by members of the “community of scholars”, and it doesn’t have to do with ID. It has to do with basic human decency, a trait which he and you have repeatedly shown that you entirely lack. A true scholar attacks the argument, but never the person. Shame on you…shame on you all.”
The best part of the quote there is where you attack Bill and Denyse as lacking any human decency and having not a shred of moral fiber, and in the very next sentence saying that a true scholar attacks the argument not the person. Which means what Al? You've proven you are 1. very very confused. 2. A hypocite, and 3. Not a true scholar since you just defied your own rule on what a true scholar is! (Lesson? Being a scientist doesn't necessarily make you the smartest or smoothest guy around.) Now, please stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You place your foot firmly in one side when you complain that you think Bill is better and isn't a gentlemen when you YOURSELF came to THEIR website to say they were bigots with not a shred of moral fiber. I mean, seriously Al, who DO you think you are? Do your students have to put up with this bologna too? Don't worry...anytime you spout your nonsense about being a gentleman, I'll be sure to post the above quote to make sure everyone knows the great gentleman you are yourself! I wouldn't waste my time with Al here. I mean- he called us bigots- can we really expect him to have anything meaningful to say? I especially like how he calls us here at the site bigots, when he complains that Bill attacked him but knows nothing about him? Another example of doublespeak from the good professor!JasonTheGreek
October 15, 2006
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Allen MacNeill Thanks a lot for coming onto UD. It is easier to see what is truth, and what is dogma by interactions with those of an opposing view. Unfortunately the ID / NDE debate comes with a history and it is easy, even within a family, for history to result in heated exchanges. We all need to understand eachother and that we in ID like many of those in non ID EB really want to find out what are the processes that generate the variations upon which geographical and environmental selection pressures work. I think it is true to say that many of us in the ID movement are of the opinion that organisms are built in such a way that their software modules would not be greatly enhanced through random mistakes. These potentially unproductive mistakes would seem also to cover transcription reversals, but of course would not include modules borrowed from other species in horizontal gene transfer and symbiosis. I think the real difficulty we have is much more basic. The improbability and specificity of biomolecules and their highly interdependent nature within any conceivable early life candidate, would seem to preclude non-design models of origins. Dawkins calls this arguing from incredulity, but I think all of science generally works from a very sceptical base, except maybe when it comes to naturalistic origin of life and origin of biological designs. I hope you pop in here at times to have your say.idnet.com.au
October 15, 2006
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have Will and I “lied” to them Possibly unwittingly but yes. Dogma taught as empirical truth is a lie. It doesn't matter whether the dogma is religious or secular. and this of course refers to the other 30% who are God-guided evolutionists and IDers, and to the 10% that are young-Earth creationists, right? True. The thing of it is that one side's dogma gets exclusivity in public education while any opposing dogma or even just criticism is legally censored. I wonder what that 60% figure would be reduced to if there was a level playing field in public school where the other side gets a few minutes on the podium to present an opposing view, hmmmm? Not much interested in a level playing field are you, Allen?DaveScot
October 14, 2006
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Macroevolution could also be largely an unfolding of preexisting information. Just as an individual organism is the ontogenetic unfolding of preexisting information so too could macroevolution be the phylogenetic unfolding of preexisting information.DaveScot
October 14, 2006
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Allen, thank you. Perhaps we might continue some of this on your site sometime. You mean, as a driver, I might learn where I'm going by where I've been? I'm just a carpenter. I once clipped a bird's wing and learned he couldn't fly. Does that make me a scientist? ZeroZero
October 14, 2006
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Zero: The "raw material" to which I referred is the huge amount of genetic and phenotypic variation that is produced in every generation of a typical population of organisms. This is what differential survival and reproduction parses and what results in the phenomenon we call "natural selection." "Horizontal information transfer" is what viruses do: transfer information from individual to individual, regardless of direction (i.e. not just from parents to offspring). And as to the analogy between the engine of a car and its historical trajectory (i.e. where is has been and where it appears to be going), that is precisely where the traditional split between microevolution and macroevolution apertains. Microevolution is those processes by which populations change over time: natural selection, sexual selection, genetic drift/draft, meiotic drive, etc. - these are the "engine" that drives the car, and all of them ultimately depend on the "engine of variation" that produces new genotypes and phenotypes (and which includes at least two dozen genetic and developmental processes in addition to "random mutation"). Macroevolution is the actual patterns of change at and above the species level that have occurred over deep evolutionary time. The mechanisms of macroevolution appear now to be not simply reducible to microevolution in many cases. Rather, they involve historically contingent processes, such as mass extinction/adaptive radiation, endosymbiosis, developmental plasticity, and large-scale genome rearrangements that produce effects that are not capturable in the standard mathematical models of microevolution.Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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Precisely, and this of course refers to the other 30% who are God-guided evolutionists and IDers, and to the 10% that are young-Earth creationists, right? And the students who do change their minds, becoming naturalist evolutionists - have Will and I "lied" to them? Or have they, presented with the evidence from both sides (including lectures by Michael Behe, John Stannard, Hannah Maxson, and many others), changed their minds and decided that the evidence points to naturalistic evolution?Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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The fact that 60% of them come into the course believing in naturalistic evolution and slightly more than that leave the course at the end is testimony to something Testimony to the truth in that if authority figures repeat a lie enough times to a child he will eventually believe it.DaveScot
October 14, 2006
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"the raw material that is passed from parents to offspring (and sometimes horizontally as well) " ******************************** Allen, how would one know this is "raw" and how is it passed "horizontally? Also, if you learn how the engine of a car functions, what does that tell you about the driver, where he's going, or how much gas is in the tank? ZeroZero
October 14, 2006
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This is precisely why both Will Provine and I always invite both our students and faculty members (such as Michael Behe) to make presentations in our evolution courses in support of whatever side they believe in. However, at present I can't think of any empirical investigations that have unambiguously supported the ID position and falsified the EB position. For example, although I provide students with copies of Behe and Snoke (2004), they pretty quickly realize that it is not a report of an empirical investigation, but rather is simply a report of a computer simulation of a theoretical model. And, although we teach an entire semester of evolutionary biology to our students, a significant fraction of the class continues to believe in either God-guided evolution or ID (around 30% of the class, to be precise). Furthermore, very few students actually change their minds between the beginning and the end of the course, according to a pre- and post-course poll (modeled on the 1982 Gallup poll). I believe that's because we present the evidence as fairly as we can, and let the students make up their own minds. The fact that 60% of them come into the course believing in naturalistic evolution and slightly more than that leave the course at the end is testimony to something, but I'm willing to think it's the persistence of belief in the face of evidence (on both sides).Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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Allen Unless and until EB begins to perform empirical investigations that can unambiguously separate standard EB explanations from ID ones, the layperson community will continue to push for the teaching of both regardless of the academic groupthink conclusion that ID is religion. And no amount of press releases or public debates or political maneuvering in school boards will change that basic principle.DaveScot
October 14, 2006
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William: The URL you requested is already listed in the previous comments. You might also be interested in my most recent publication: "The Capacity for Religious Experience is an Evolutionary Adaptation for Warfare", Evolution & Cognition, 10:1, pp. 43-60. It's also available as chapter 10 in Fitzduff & Stout, eds. (2005) The Psychology of Resolving Global Conflicts, Vol. 1, Praeger Security International/Greenwood Pubs., Westport, CT, pp. 257-284 Unfortunately, my introductory evolution textbook is still being written (under contract with Wiley) and my lecture series on evolutionary psychology from The Teaching Company won't be out until next year. However, if you go back through the archives at my blog at: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/ you can probably get a good idea of where I stand on most of these issues. And, for the record, let me publically apologize for the tone of my criticism of your comments found at: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2005/12/guest_post_allen_macneill_fisk.php Had I stuck to statements of fact (and analyzed simply your statements and compared them to the record), I believe that I might not have strayed into ad hominem territory. But the last couple of paragraphs were pure speculation about your motives and state of mind, and only you know what those are. Such speculation is out of bounds for any intellectual debate, and I therefore apologize for it and hope that you do not continue to hold it against me. Henceforth, I will try to conduct myself as a "gentleman and a scholar" in our interactions (assuming there are any), and trust that you will do the same.Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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Allen: Pardon me for not being impressed with the threat of having a course "delisted." As for being willing to argue the evidence and its interpretation, please refer me to any of your writings in which you lay out the positive case for evolution (why you are a believer) and your refutation of ID. URLs will be fine. As for evolutionary theory being so much richer than strict Darwinism, this holds little water with me, especially since most attempted refutations of ID look to the power of natural selection (have a look at my intro to UNCOMMON DISSENT -- the book -- in which I spell out why Darwinism is the core of evolutionary biology). Oh, please stop the whining about ad hominems -- you seem to give as good as you get. Finally, Baylor and I have patched up our differences -- I have good colleagues there in a number of departments and some active research projects with them which I expect will in the next year to bear fruit. William Dembski
October 14, 2006
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The fundamental criterion in science has always been "is there empirical evidence for the generalization?" If the answer is "yes," then it's admitted into the canon; if the answer is "no," then it isn't. I would be the first to admit that "random mutation and natural selection" alone is insufficient to explain both the diversity of life on Earth and the exquisiteness of biological adaptations. However, the phrase "random mutation and natural selection" captures about as much of the full scope of evolutionary theory as "what goes up must come down" captures the full scope of general relativity and Newtonian gravitation. As I always emphasize to my students, natural selection is not a process, nor is "random mutation" either "random" nor simply limited to "mutation." As anyone who understands the underlying structure of evolutionary theory understands, the real source of all evolutionary change is not natural selection, but rather the "engine of variation" that provides the raw material that is passed from parents to offspring (and sometimes horizontally as well) and then parsed by the demographic processes we lump together under the heading of "differential reproductive success." It is the "engine of variation" that both IDers and EBers are really interested in, and which is only just now becoming amenable to scientific investigation. I believe that it is still an open question just exactly how this "engine" operates, and what its scope (and limitations) might be. That said, it is only empirical investigations that will unlock its secrets. Unless and until ID begins to perform empirical investigations that can unambiguously separate standard EB explanations from ID ones, the scientific community will continue to investigate (and to teach) the former. And no amount of press releases or public debates or political maneuvering in school boards will change that basic principle.Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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"I have found that most anti-evolution group members..." ID proponents are not anti-evolution. I am an evolutionist: Living systems have changed. This is obvious. "I have come to my current beliefs about nature and natural processes through a long process of investigation and interpretation of evidence..." So have I, and it is transparently obvious that random mutation and natural selection is hopelessly inadequate as an explanation of life's complexity, information content, and functionally integrated machinery. This is a fantasy of the highest order, which flies in the face of evidence and logic. The main point is this: Religious believers are free to associate or dissociate as they please within the religious and secular communities. Darwinists have a monopoly on public education, with the power of the State and the legal system to impose their beliefs and speculations on other people's children (along with all the attendant philosophical and religious implications, which children pick up on immediately). Darwinists also use the power of the State and the legal system to suppress dissent, even when that dissent is based on scientific evidence. They also use their power, in publicly funded institutions, to attempt to demonize, vilify, and even excommunicate heretics who dare to raise questions about the reigning orthodoxy. Everyone is susceptible to groupthink. That's human nature. The danger occurs when groupthink is coercively imposed.GilDodgen
October 14, 2006
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And, for the record, exactly what would "booting me from this forum" confirm - my "fatuousness" or "delusions", or your inability to countenance opposing opinions in an atmosphere of collegial debate? My own blog is online at http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/ Please feel free to visit at your leisure, and post comments on whatever topic you wish. And, rest assured, so long as you adhere to the rules of "spirited academic debate" you will not be "booted" from that forum, and I will not characterize your self or your actions as either "fatuous" or "deluded."Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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Dr. Dembski: Once again you attack me personally, without knowing anything about my beliefs or history. Please, for the record, which of my comments was "fatuous" and in what way? And, for the record, I came close to having my evolution/design seminar "delisted" this summer, but with Will Provine's help, it went on as planned...with Hannah Maxson (founder and president of the Cornell IDEA Club as a full participant and moderator of the course website). I can understand your bitterness as the result of the Baylor affair, but does that give you the right to attack me in what virtually anyone would recognize as pure ad hominem viciousness? What happened to arguing propositions on their intellectual merits? Are you that much less of a gentleman and a scholar as my friend and colleague Hannah Maxson?Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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Actually, Will Provine is my best friend: we co-teach the introductory evolution course at Cornell. And we disagree, sometimes pretty vehemently, on many topics in evolution. We also regularly invite members of the ID community to make presentations in our courses - indeed, in my evolution/design seminar this past summer, the founder and president of the Cornell IDEA club was one of the course organizers and moderator of the course website. And contrary to your assertions, I have been engaged in debating anti-evolutionists for years - pretty much the same length of time I have been engaged in debating evolutionary biologists whose ideas I do not agree with. What I have found as the result of such debates is that scientists are always ready, willing, and able to change their minds about their own sciences, so long as they are presented with convincing empirical evidence. Until then, however, they will continue to use the "rough and ready" - and tentative - generalizations that they have formulated as the result of past empirical investigation. This is precisely what religiously motivated anti-evolutions do not (indeed, cannot) do, since their beliefs are not based on empirical evidence, nor are they open to question, much less skepticism. Here is where the difference between scientists and anti-scientists is most obvious. As T. H. Huxley (and Charles Darwin) said on numerous occasions, one should be most skeptical about one's own most deeply held beliefs. Otherwise, one is likely to believe in something because one wants to, rather than because the evidence demands it. For an example of how science is always "tentative", see this essay: http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2006/10/13/5609 And, if you have the time, please find for me an equivalent statement of "skeptical tentativeness" presented as a defining characteristic of religiously motivated anti-evolutionism.Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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Allen: You really need to mix more in the real world. Question: did your views on evolution ever lead to you losing an academic job? No? From your cossetted little academic fiefdom, it's all very easy to blow smoke. For your fatuous remarks above, I should boot you from this forum, but that would only confirm your delusions.William Dembski
October 14, 2006
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Allen_MacNeill : "I can state that (at Cornell at least) none of the characteristics listed apply to any of the evolutionary biologists I know personally." Obviously you don't know Will Provine. Obviously also you haven't heard, participated or read any debates involving many key characters in the debate on a whole in a long time. And it would seem, by your comments, that neither do you read the typical sci magazines when focusing on the issue. Quite surprising. You must be very busy indeed. As for the ID side - it is not, inspite of the most common claims by darwinists, the same thing as theistic "creationism" - such as adhered to by your mentioned ICR. Indeed, religiously-motivated anti-evo groups can be very stubborn as well. But at least those who adhere to the christian view have a good reason to be such, since they're right about human origins. ;-)Borne
October 14, 2006
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This syndrome, IMO, is commonly known as,"Follow the leader". I have never known a leader to have a guide, a pathfinder a path, nor a trailblazer a trail. BlessingsZero
October 14, 2006
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Speaking as an evolutionary biologist who argues regularly with other evolutionary biologists about almost everything, I can state that (at Cornell at least) none of the characteristics listed apply to any of the evolutionary biologists I know personally. However, every single one of them apply (in spades) to some of the anti-evolution/YEC groups with which I have had contact over the years. Let me hasten to add that I do NOT include the Cornell IDEA club in this, as my interactions with them have always indicated to me that they have as healthy a skepticism about their own beliefs as I have about mine. But in general, I have found that most anti-evolution group members begin with the unshakeable position that no amount of empirical evidence can possibly make them change their beliefs. In fact, most such groups require a "confession of faith" in which such absolute adherence to dogma is required for group membership (the ICR is just the most notorious of such organizations). Let me repeat once again a point that seems to be constantly overlooked: I have come to my current beliefs about nature and natural processes through a long process of investigation and interpretation of evidence. I have changed my mind about how I believe nature works many times since beginning to study it, and expect that this will happen again as more evidence is presented. This is what a scientist does, and so the list of characteristics heading this post quite literally is antithetical to both the spirit and practice of science as I understand it. However, it seems to me to pretty accurately describe the behavior and mindset of many religously-motivated anti-evolution groups.Allen_MacNeill
October 14, 2006
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