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The hole of the SLoT

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Definition of the 2nd law of thermodynamics (SLoT).

This law (in its statistical mechanics sense) states that an isolated system goes towards its more probable states (those more numerous). Since the disordered states are countless, while the ordered/organized ones are few, a closed system spontaneously goes towards disorder/disorganization (related to entropy).

Difference between order and organization.

Increase of order implies decrease of entropy. Examples of order in nature are crystals; soap bubbles and raindrops are examples of naturally ordered quasi-spheres. Examples of order in human artefacts are the pattern of wood in a fence and the configuration of seats in a cinema.
Organization also implies persistent decrease of entropy, but is far more and far higher than order. Organization is qualitatively different from order. Organization always involves functional hierarchies and complex specified information (CSI). Examples of organization in nature are cells and organisms. Examples of organization in human technology are engines and computers.

A key point: the relation between organization and entropy is non symmetrical. (Intuitive example of non symmetrical relation: rain implies decrease of dryness, but decrease of dryness does not imply rain – decrease of dryness may well have other causes.) While organization implies persistent decrease of entropy, a decrease of entropy alone does not imply organization. Put differently: while entropy destroys organization, its opposite – neghentropy – doesn’t create organization. While it is true that what decreases order destroys also organization, it is false that what increases order creates also organization.

By increasing order we don’t get organization, like by increasing numbers we don’t get elephants or spaceships, like by increasing a rectangle we don’t get a circle or a fractal. Organization is not at all the limit which order tends to. Between increasing order and organization there is a deep discontinuity, a “hole”.

Graphical representation of the 2nd law.

See this picture:

close

Where the organized state (red zone) is one, the ordered states (yellow zone) are some and the disordered states (green zone) are countless. Since the disordered states are far more numerous than the other states they are more probable (leading to the continue tendency for disorder stated by the 2nd law). In the picture the 2nd law tendency is symbolized by the gravity force applied to the red ball. The red ball always tends towards the bottom, towards the disordered states. The discontinuity between organization and order – the “hole” – is represented by the tunnel between the red zone and the yellow zone. The ball never reaches the red zone of organization because, also if it climbs the mountain, it falls in the hole and crosses the tunnel.

Biological unguided evolution.

Evolution supposes that all the biological organization on Earth arose spontaneously (naturalistic origin of life + naturalistic origin of species).

Corollary of the 2nd law.

In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution. The absurdity of evolution is illustrated in the following picture:

evo

Evolution would involve countless scenarios where the red balls stay permanently on the top of the peaks. Consequently the 2nd law disproves evolution because evolution would represent a set of events practically impossible.

Evolutionist “compensation argument”.

To rebut the above corollary, usually evolutionists resort to this argument. Since the Earth is not isolated, the 2nd law does not forbid a local (on Earth) decreases in entropy (which is all biological organisms represent, and no more than evolution is posited to do), gained at the cost of increased entropy in the surroundings (the solar system) (or, as long as the system exports a sufficient amount of entropy to its surroundings). So evolution can happen on Earth.

Refutation of the “compensation argument”.

The main counter-point is that, no, decrease in entropy is not “all biological organisms represent”. Organisms eminently represent organization. They are even ultra-complex systems. As said above, simple decrease in entropy is not organization. Evolutionists use “entropy” as a “free lunch” for evolution: entropy increases there, so entropy decrease here and organisms arise here at zero cost, while the 2nd law is safe. Too good to be true. Since entropy is related to disorder, then I cause a big mess (easy task) there to get organization (difficult task) here? Do you see the nonsense?

Second, call A the open system and B its surroundings. “Increased entropy in the surroundings” means that B has increased its disorder, going towards a more disordered state. This additional disorder in B becomes (in the mind of evolutionists) sort of “money” to pay the organization in A. Just this concept appears paradoxical: to pay organization by means of disorder. It is like to say: a disease in my wife 🙁 increases my health :).

Third, the reasoning is also absurd when we speak of probability. “Increased entropy in the surroundings” means that in B happened events more probable than the events happened before. These more probable events become (in the mind of evolutionists) sort of “magic” that creates organization in A. In turn, this organization in A is events with low probability that happen. So the whole reasoning is: probable events happened in B cause improbable events in A. It is like to say: the shopping expenses of my wife 🙁 cause my winning the lottery :).

In short, the evolutionist “compensation argument” is something like “non-X causes X”. It helps exactly zero the case for evolution, and doesn’t save evolution against the 2nd law.

The bottom line is: improbable events related to organization in a system remain improbable independently from the fact that we consider the system closed or open. Unless evolutionists are able to prove that some external cause is really able to reduce somehow such improbabilities, by injecting CSI to create organization. So far evolutionists have not succeeded in such task, their “compensation argument” is laughable. While IDers have a name for an organizational cause: intelligence.

Comments
Lizzie:
EAs are an exact replication of natural selection in silico, Joe.
Nope. EAs have a goal. Natural selection does not. Natural selection is eliminative. The only reward for the survivors is that they may get the chance to reproduce. That isn't how EAs operate.
I realise that you disagree, ...
Again, I can support my claims and you cannot. No one cares what you say, Lizzie. They only care what you can demonstrate. And you cannot demonstrate that "EAs are an exact replication of natural selection in silico" and I can demonstrate they are design mechanisms, ie tools designed by us to solve specific problems (they have goals). So blah, blah, blah all you want, reality refutes you.Joe
July 10, 2013
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Joe
EAs have nothing to do with natural selection.
EAs are an exact replication of natural selection in silico, Joe. I realise that you disagree, but you are wrong.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 10, 2013
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Hence more entropy in the Earth’s surroundings doesn’t give less entropy in the Earth. This refutes compensation as cause of evolution. Thus, evolutionists’ “money” doesn’t pay anything.
If anyone said that more entropy in the Earth's surroundings "gives" less entropy on Earth, they'd be wrong. Likewise, compensation doesn't "cause" evolution. I haven't heard any 'evolutionists' say that, but that doesn't really matter -- either way, it's not quite correct. The correct version: compensation allows for evolution. It doesn't cause evolution; it just shows how the 2LOT also doesn't hinder evolution. This is pretty much what Elizabeth and Keith have been saying all through this thread. More entropy in surrounding systems is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for local entropy decrease. If we were to continue the money analogy, it's like imagining that you'd have to pay $10 to have any possibility whatsoever of getting a ticket for some concert. Paying $10 wouldn't guarantee you get a concert ticket, it just removes one hindrance to the possibility. It means that now the "You must pay $10 to get a ticket" law has been satisfied, and this no longer poses a problem for you obtaining a ticket.
The SLoT continues to say that systems spontaneously go towards disorder. Evolution continues to say that systems spontaneously go towards organization. Two incompatible things.
/sigh. Imagine what happens to every Earth-like planet that is cooling down from its early, molten state. It goes from molten rock (high disorder) to solid rock (low disorder). The system spontaneously goes towards order. How can it do that? Because it's an open system. If your understanding of a physical law is contradicted by reality, then you're not understanding the physical law correctly.Ben W
July 10, 2013
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BornAgain, Quantum information is still physical, just like what you're calling "classical" information. For the sake of this discussion, the two can be treated identically. The problem is that neither of these have anything to do with complex specified information (CSI), which has to do with the functionality of a given sequence of bits, rather than its mathematical or physical amount of bits information. That's the big leap of logic that I'm not following. Quantum or not-quantum, I don't care - that's just reversible vs irreversible thermodynamics (and not necessarily that). Sure, maybe cells can use quantum information to help repair their cells. *Maybe*. (I'm really unclear on how you reached that conclusion from an article about quantum dots and DNA repair). But that still has nothing to do with biological "information" and CSI. I mean, sure, the two are tangentially related, but it's a huge stretch. This doesn't help you figure out how much CSI is in a given string of bits (or a wave function, if you want to include the quantum aspect).Ben W
July 10, 2013
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Lizzie:
EAs are far from “off topic”, as Granville’s contention is that natural selection would violate the 2nd Law.
EAs have nothing to do with natural selection. EAs have nothing to do with darwinian evolution. EAs are a DESIGN mechanism. THAT is why they do not violate the 2LoT.Joe
July 10, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
A “statistical law” is only as good as the premise on which you computed your probability distribution.
We agree here, no problem. In the SLoT the premises are the laws of physics and mathematics (eminently probability and statistics). By the way, I am supporter of the "frequentist" approach in probability theory, according to which probabilities are real properties of objects and events (when they are aptly frame-worked in a well defined context, as you rightly noted).niwrad
July 10, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
We can see from an EA that natural selection does not violate the 2nd Law.
I would rephrase a bit: "We can see that an EA does not violate the 2nd Law because implies the intervention of an intelligent source...(the programmer)". ;)niwrad
July 10, 2013
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keiths Thanks for the link. Yees, "The ball climbs the slope, but it falls down the hole (can't park) and reappears at the coin return .. SLoT". It well captures what I meant as double sense in my title! :)niwrad
July 10, 2013
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niwrad, Someone has made some helpful modifications to your diagram.keiths
July 10, 2013
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EAs are far from "off topic", as Granville's contention is that natural selection would violate the 2nd Law. But we can see from an EA that natural selection does not violate the 2nd Law and can result in an decrease in entropy. And entropy is not a measure of disorganisation, so claiming that the results of an EA are not "organised" is not a rebuttal to the claim that EAs cannot reduce entropy. And, in any case, the results of EAs are frequently highly organised, by any standards - they include some pretty clever solutions to quite difficult problems.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 10, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
This [evolution] can be seen very dramatically in any simple evolutionary algorithm, where entirely random but heritable changes to the virtual critters rapidly lead to sequences that are far from uniform.
Non-uniformity has nothing to do with organization. Anyway with EAs we go off topic. In my articles pipeline there is also "The fake of EAs" (or something like that), where I show that EAs prove evolution like, say, my last PHP script "Sequences Probability Calculator v.1.1" proves the spontaneous arise of an aircraft carrier, i.e. exactly ZERO.niwrad
July 10, 2013
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Ben W
The 2LOT is a phenomenological law. It is a law we have derived from observing physical phenomena, rather than derived from more basic laws. This means that there’s still some chance that far off in the future, we’ll discover some exotic physics that lets us break the 2LOT.
The SLoT is experimentally evident but, in the same time, is based also on principles. The chance that in the future it will be broken by some "exotic physics" is the same that in math someone discovers than 1 million is less than 1.niwrad
July 10, 2013
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A "statistical law" is only as good as the premise on which you computed your probability distribution. This point seems to get no traction here at all. A probability is not a property of a pattern. A probability distribution is a property of a generative process. You cannot look at two patterns, and decide that one was more probable than the other, without specifying the conditions under which you are assuming it was generated.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 10, 2013
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Ben W
The 2LOT is a statistical law.
Good for ID and bad for evolution. Nothing is more certain than a statistical law. The industry based on probability and statistics (casinos) is the most reliable.niwrad
July 9, 2013
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Evolutionists, Obviously, nothing of what you said to defend evolution from the SLoT has helped. The SLoT continues to say that systems spontaneously go towards disorder. Evolution continues to say that systems spontaneously go towards organization. Two incompatible things. The models of SLoT and evolution I described (also with pictures) are exactly the model of the famous evolutionist Richard Dawkins ("mount improbable"...) and all evolutionists with him. They are so simple to understand that also a child can do it. You have a ball forced by gravity. You have zones of the mountain the ball can reach. You have zones of the mountain the ball cannot reach. The SLoT says what is the "no parking" zone. You persist to deny clear evidence and continue to claim that in the history of Earth infinite balls went and still stay permanently in the "no parking" zone. The reason of your stubbornness is you fear the SLoT as fire. IDers/creationists know that. They will continue to "shot" this weak point (and all others obviously) endlessly.niwrad
July 9, 2013
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Ben W
Entropy isn’t like money.
Evolutionists do use entropy like money in compensation, not me.
More entropy in one system doesn’t give you less entropy in another system.
Hence more entropy in the Earth's surroundings doesn’t give less entropy in the Earth. This refutes compensation as cause of evolution. Thus, evolutionists' "money" doesn't pay anything.
The difference is that you could also have more entropy in both systems, of course.
True. This worse the case for evolution, though.niwrad
July 9, 2013
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keiths@53: I have found a fun way to further improve upon your gerbil poofing analogy. See the other thread.CS3
July 9, 2013
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I'm sorry Ben, I mistakenly called you Bobbornagain77
July 9, 2013
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Bob W you claim there is no connection between quantum information and classical information, such as what Dembski and Marks have established the conservation of, so yet once again I reference this paper: Encoded ‘classical’ information such as what Dembski and Marks have demonstrated the conservation of, and such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘transcendent’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:,,,
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
To refresh your memory Bob W,, Rolf Landauer held that the classical information encoded in a computer is merely 'physical',,
"Information is physical" Landauer
The reason Landauer held classical information to be merely physical, i.e.‘emergent’, from a material basis is he believed it always required energy to erase classical information from a computer. Yet in the preceding experiment there is a erasure of classical information without energy. Thus directly undercutting Landauer's contention that 'information is physical'. i.e The information was removed without the necessary consumption of energy as Landauer held. But Bob W, regardless of whether you accept this clear evidence or not that classical information is a subset of quantum information, let's dig a little deeper and see what the empirical evidence can tell us, thus far, about the relation between irreversible thermodynamics and the quantum entanglement/information inherent within the DNA and proteins of the cell (as I have already referenced for you: E. Rieper).,,, In the cell we find elaborate overlapping DNA repair mechanisms protecting the classical information on the DNA from the entropic decay of random mutations. The most spectacular example for DNA repair I have seen thus far is this:
Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm
Please note, DNA repair machines ‘Fixing every pothole in America before the next rush hour’ is analogous to the traveling salesman problem. The traveling salesman problem is a NP-hard (read: very hard) problem in computer science; The problem involves finding the shortest possible route between cities, visiting each city only once. ‘Traveling salesman problems’ are notorious for keeping supercomputers busy for days.
NP-hard problem - Examples http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-hard#Examples
Since it is readily apparent that there is not a material CPU (central processing unit) in the DNA, or cell, busily computing answers (crunching bits) to this monster logistic problem, in a purely ‘material’ fashion, then it is readily apparent that this monster ‘traveling salesman problem’, for DNA repair, is somehow being computed by the ‘non-local’ quantum information inherent within the cell; And indeed we have evidence that quantum information can accomplish exactly this type of extremely difficult computational problem:
Speed Test of Quantum Versus Conventional Computing: Quantum Computer Wins - May 8, 2013 Excerpt: quantum computing is, "in some cases, really, really fast." McGeoch says the calculations the D-Wave excels at involve a specific combinatorial optimization problem, comparable in difficulty to the more famous "travelling salesperson" problem that's been a foundation of theoretical computing for decades.,,, "This type of computer is not intended for surfing the internet, but it does solve this narrow but important type of problem really, really fast," McGeoch says. "There are degrees of what it can do. If you want it to solve the exact problem it's built to solve, at the problem sizes I tested, it's thousands of times faster than anything I'm aware of. If you want it to solve more general problems of that size, I would say it competes -- it does as well as some of the best things I've looked at. At this point it's merely above average but shows a promising scaling trajectory." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130508122828.htm
Thus Bob W, you are in the unenviable position of denying that thermodynamics does not present any problems whatsoever for Darwinian evolution, and yet Quantum information strongly implicated, in a rather astonishing 'quantum computation' fashion, to be preventing the entropic effects of random mutations from accumulating in DNA. Go figure! It is definitely not a position I would wish to be arguing from Bob W! Supplemental notes:
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence Quantum Entanglement and Information Quantum entanglement is a physical resource, like energy, associated with the peculiar nonclassical correlations that are possible between separated quantum systems. Entanglement can be measured, transformed, and purified. A pair of quantum systems in an entangled state can be used as a quantum information channel to perform computational and cryptographic tasks that are impossible for classical systems. The general study of the information-processing capabilities of quantum systems is the subject of quantum information theory. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-entangle/
I will assume for the sake of brevity that I do not have to review the falsification of local realism for you: Verse and music:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. You Are I Am - Mercyme http://myktis.com/songs/you-are-i-am/
bornagain77
July 9, 2013
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Keith: And there are really a few more caveats we can add, to discuss the limits of the 2LOT: The 2LOT is a phenomenological law. It is a law we have derived from observing physical phenomena, rather than derived from more basic laws. This means that there's still some chance that far off in the future, we'll discover some exotic physics that lets us break the 2LOT. The 2LOT is a statistical law. Correctly applied, it describes the tendencies of systems over periods of times. So, when we say that 2LOT says that something will "never" happen, we really just mean that it's extremely unlikely, not that it's completely impossible. If we're looking at just a few atoms or short period of time, this overly-simplified form of 2LOT can be broken (and indeed, we've seen observed it in real life). Systems can go "uphill", they just don't tend to, and the larger the system, the more unlikely it is. And you're right about the 2LOT applied to an open system; it's the same as the "compensation argument". If I look at nirwad's refuation of the compensation argument, I'm not sure that he understands the 2LOT. His first two points basically argue with the 2LOT itself, or, perhaps, he just misunderstands what evolutionists & thermodynamicists are actually saying. For instance: entropy isn't like money. More entropy in one system doesn't give you less entropy in another system. Rather, less entropy in one system requires more entropy in another. The difference is that you could also have more entropy in both systems, of course. But as long as one system has less, then the other one must have at least that much more. Maybe that's paradoxical or non-intuitive, but it's science.Ben W
July 9, 2013
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Phinehas,
Please forgive my ignorance, but does this mean that the second law in effect has nothing whatsoever to do with anything (not just evolution) on this planet, since the Earth is not a closed system?
The second law applies to both open and isolated systems. (Note: Technically, there is a difference between closed and isolated systems, and we should really be using the term 'isolated' here, though it's usually clear from context what we actually mean. I'll try to use 'isolated' for that reason, though I often forget, and it's nothing to get worked up about.) The underlying principle is the same, but the second law is expressed differently with respect to open and isolated systems: The entropy of an isolated system never decreases. The entropy of an open system never decreases unless the decrease is compensated for by an equal or greater increase in the entropy of the surroundings. The latter statement is the familiar compensation argument, which is why I've been stressing that to deny the compensation argument is to deny the second law itself. niwrad doesn't seem to get that, though.keiths
July 9, 2013
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Re closed systems: You can have open systems within closed systems. So what that means is that even if we regard the earth as a closed system, that doesn't stop there being local entropy decrease on earth, because those local systems will be "open" to the rest of earth. What matters is that the system isn't in equilibrium, whether we consider the system "just earth" or "earth + sun" or whatever. There are energy gradients still, and those energy gradients mean that work can be done, and when work is done, entropy can fall, although the system doing the work will always gain more entropy as a result of the work done, than the system on which the work is done loses. The reason that evolution isn't prevented from happening by the 2LoT isn't that "the earth" is an open system, but that because "the earth" isn't in equilibrium, it contains lots of open systems. Although it is, of course, an open system, and solar energy is what generates most of the energy gradients as far as I know. At least I think that's right.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 9, 2013
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Please forgive my ignorance, but does this mean that the second law in effect has nothing whatsoever to do with anything (not just evolution) on this planet, since the Earth is not a closed system?
Well, you could theoretically have a closed system on Earth, if you're talking about extremely short time periods. And we might look at the law for systems where the system is almost closed, like when we're trying to figure out how what happens to a gas-air mixture inside an engine (on a timescale where no heat or matter escapes). Likewise, the 2LOT tells you that a perpetual motion machine can't give you useful energy back out, whether on Earth or not. So, it does has useful applications, but they're often pretty simplified or small. You'd have to be extremely careful about making broad, sweeping claims for long times or large systems based on the 2LOT.Ben W
July 9, 2013
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Norbert Wiener wrote: “The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree” (Cybernetics, Introduction). Since organization involves functionality then you disagree with Wiener.
I've no idea how to interpret what Wiener is trying to say there, with the quote out of context. I 'spect that "organization" may mean a different thing to a cyberneticist than to a materials scientist or mathematician.
Moreover, for you, 2 cases both inconsistent are possible: (1) DNA has functionality, but it has irrelevant information content; (2) DNA has information content, but it has irrelevant functionality. Even you disagree with most evolutionists, who after all admit DNA has information AND functionality.
I didn't say that. Rather, you can add more information, or functionality, or both, or neither. The two aren't strongly connected in biological systems. If I had another base pair to a DNA strand, in doing so, mucked up the cell's biological machinery, then I've increased information but decreased functionality. If, on the other hand, the new base pair happened to increase survival, then I've increased information and functionality. And I can give you examples of either case from real life. BornAgain, I'm having trouble following your point. Most of the science papers you gave discussed physical information, a measurable, quantifiable physical property of a system. And then you bait-and-switched to Dembski/Behe's idea of CSI, which really has no formal (physical/mathematical) definition or measure. Trust me, my understanding of thermodynamics is just fine, but I still can't see what quantum entanglement or physical information has to do with "specified" information, as the latter relies not on the mathematically-quantifiable information in a string of bits, but on their usefulness to an organism. It's apples and orangutans.Ben W
July 9, 2013
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Ben W
Regardless, this still all has little to do with the second law and evolution on this planet. The Earth is not a closed system, so any impositions of the 2LOT on information in a closed system still don’t apply here.
Please forgive my ignorance, but does this mean that the second law in effect has nothing whatsoever to do with anything (not just evolution) on this planet, since the Earth is not a closed system?Phinehas
July 9, 2013
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Ben W
Functionality is irrelevant to information content.
Norbert Wiener wrote: "The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree" (Cybernetics, Introduction). Since organization involves functionality then you disagree with Wiener. Moreover, for you, 2 cases both inconsistent are possible: (1) DNA has functionality, but it has irrelevant information content; (2) DNA has information content, but it has irrelevant functionality. Even you disagree with most evolutionists, who after all admit DNA has information AND functionality. So no wonder that for you "evolution does not violate the 2LOT". If evolution implies neither information nor functionality, it is a void word only, about which it is futile to ask if it violates or doesn't violate the 2LOT.niwrad
July 9, 2013
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Ben W you claim:
In other words, there’s no real connect between actual information as defined by chemists/physicists and the information as defined by Dembski et al.
Yet I showed you: Encoded ‘classical’ information such as what Dembski and Marks have demonstrated the conservation of, and such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘transcendent’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:,,, Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm Moreover I showed you non-reducible quantum entanglement is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale and can be said to be what is actually constraining the cell to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium: Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – Elisabeth Rieper – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum Action confirmed in DNA by direct empirical research; DNA Can Discern Between Two Quantum States, Research Shows - June 2011 Excerpt: -- DNA -- can discern between quantum states known as spin. - The researchers fabricated self-assembling, single layers of DNA attached to a gold substrate. They then exposed the DNA to mixed groups of electrons with both directions of spin. Indeed, the team's results surpassed expectations: The biological molecules reacted strongly with the electrons carrying one of those spins, and hardly at all with the others. The longer the molecule, the more efficient it was at choosing electrons with the desired spin, while single strands and damaged bits of DNA did not exhibit this property. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110331104014.htm Does DNA Have Telepathic Properties?-A Galaxy Insight - 2009 Excerpt: DNA has been found to have a bizarre ability to put itself together, even at a distance, when according to known science it shouldn't be able to.,,, The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/04/does-dna-have-t.html It turns out that quantum information has been confirmed to be in protein structures as well; Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/ Of course this is at the cutting edge of empirical science and they are still trying to bring the details together into a cohesive whole,,,: Two papers investigate the thermodynamics of quantum systems – July 8, 2013 Excerpt: As one of the pillars of the natural sciences, thermodynamics plays an important role in all processes that involve heat, energy, and work. While the principles of thermodynamics can predict the amount of work done in classical systems, for quantum systems there is instead a distribution of many possible values of work. Two new papers published in Physical Review Letters have proposed theoretical schemes that would significantly ease the measurement of the statistics of work done by quantum systems.,,, “Fundamentally, we could start exploring quantum thermodynamics, which puts together a genuine quantum approach and the rock-solid foundations of thermodynamics,” he said. “We (and a few other researchers) are trying to do it from an information theoretic viewpoint, hoping to get new insight into this fascinating area.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-07-papers-thermodynamics-quantum.html ,,,But to deny there is a direct connection between the quantum information inherent in the cell and irreversible thermodynamics is to deny direct empirical evidence.,,,,, Moreover we can go over mutation studies if you want which show a consistent degradation of molecular information in the cell: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00bornagain77
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BornAgain, the problem is that the "information" as defined in those quotes by chemists and physicists has nothing to do with "information" as defined by ID biologists. For physicists or a mathematician, information is defined by the number of equivalent states, which, yeah, increases as entropy increases. Configurational entropy is directly related to "information content". To me, a materials scientist, you can increase the information content of something by just adding more bits. Any random string of 250 bits is less information than a random string of 500 bits. Functionality is irrelevant to information content. But to an ID-biologist, a 250-bit string of DNA that performs some function has more "information" than a 500-bit string of DNA that does nothing. That requires a completely different definition of "information". In other words, there's no real connect between actual information as defined by chemists/physicists and the information as defined by Dembski et al. And if you have to change the definition of a word to make it "fit" in your quotes, then it's not really saying what you're saying. Regardless, this still all has little to do with the second law and evolution on this planet. The Earth is not a closed system, so any impositions of the 2LOT on information in a closed system still don't apply here.Ben W
July 9, 2013
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as to: "It is completely, 100% wrong to say that the Second Law of Thermodynamics poses any problem for evolution whatsoever." Save of course for the fact that it actually does pose a very severe problem for evolution, namely: “Is there a real connection between entropy in physics and the entropy of information? ….The equations of information theory and the second law are the same, suggesting that the idea of entropy is something fundamental…” Siegfried, Dallas Morning News, 5/14/90, [Quotes Robert W. Lucky, Ex. Director of Research, AT&T, Bell Laboratories & John A. Wheeler, of Princeton & Univ. of TX, Austin] “Bertalanffy (1968) called the relation between irreversible thermodynamics and information theory one of the most fundamental unsolved problems in biology.” Charles J. Smith – Biosystems, Vol.1, p259. “Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more.” Gilbert Newton Lewis – preeminent Chemist of the first half of last century Is the a real relation between Thermodynamics and the information inherent in the cell? You bet: Maxwell's demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle's position) turns information into energy - November 2010 Excerpt: Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a "spiral-staircase-like" potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-maxwell-demon-energy.html Demonic device converts information to energy - 2010 Excerpt: "This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content," says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. "This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale," says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=demonic-device-converts-inform Supplemental notes: Shining Light on Dark Energy – October 21, 2012 Excerpt: It (Entropy) explains time; it explains every possible (non-quantum) action in the universe;,, Even gravity, Vedral argued, can be expressed as a consequence of the law of entropy. ,,, The principles of thermodynamics are at their roots all to do with information theory. Information theory is simply an embodiment of how we interact with the universe —,,, http://crev.info/2012/10/shining-light-on-dark-energy/ Yet we find that entropy cannot explain the origination of information: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag Moreover,,,Encoded ‘classical’ information such as what Dembski and Marks have demonstrated the conservation of, and such as what we find encoded in computer programs, and yes, as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of ‘transcendent’ (beyond space and time) quantum entanglement/information by the following method:,,, Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm And quantum entanglement cannot be reduced to a within space-time cause: Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm If that wasn't bad enough for the reductive materialistic basis of neo-Darwinism, non-reducible quantum entanglement is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale: Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/bornagain77
July 9, 2013
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keiths
You deny the compensation argument. An entire section of your OP is entitled Refutation of the “compensation argument”.
I deny it only insofar compensation pretends to save evolution from the SLoT. If its pretension is only the ball can climb until the yellow zone, then no problem, compensation is ok.
You and Granville are confused because you think the compensation argument should explain evolution. But why?
Because SLoT explains non-evolution, then compensation should explain evolution, what else.niwrad
July 9, 2013
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