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Thomas Aquinas contra Transformism

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In my previous post Synthesis-versus-Analysis I dealt with the distinction between “true whole” and “false whole”. Now let’s see how that had relations with Aquinas and his refutation of biological macroevolution.

About the origin of man and the relations between his soul and body, Aquinas was clear:

Reply to objection 3: Some have claimed that the [first] man’s body was formed antecedently in time, and that later on God infused a soul into the already formed body. But it is contrary to the nature of the perfection of the first production of beings that God would make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body; for each of them is a part of human nature. It is especially inappropriate to make the body without the soul, since the body depends on the soul, but not vice versa. [Summa Theologiae, 91, IV]

Note that the above quote especially applies to the negation of the arise of man from a non-human being (anthropoid). But in general denies the material macroevolution of any living being, because no being is inanimate (also if obviously human soul is incomparably higher than any animal soul) and Aquinas states that “soul is the form of the body” (in Scholasticism, in general, the “form” is the qualitative “principle” or “essence” of a thing):

Reply to objection 3: […] But since the soul is the form of the body, it does not have esse separately from the body’s esse; instead, it is united to the body directly through its own esse. [ibidem, 76, VII]

We can conclude that Aquinas is contra universal macroevolution in principle, because macroevolution is transformation of bodies only, while in Aquinas soul and body are not separable and the latter causatively depends on the former. By the way, this crystalline Aquinas’ position, shows how inconsistent are some Catholics (or even neo-Thomists!) who think to can believe, in the same time, in the Catholic doctrine (of which Aquinas is the master reference) and biological transformism.

But here I want to elaborate a bit specifically the above Aquinas statement: “But it is contrary to the nature of the perfection of the first production of beings that God would make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body”.

Beings are “perfect” because they are “true wholes”. If they are “true wholes” then their constitution / organization spiritus-anima-corpus must be an integrated “unit” or “oneness”. As I said in the linked post a “true whole” is a synthesis that can be neither produced nor conceived by analysis, rather only by means of “synthetic knowledge” (related to intelligent design). Because of such “synthetic knowledge” any kind of being is a top-down manifestation / instantiation of a metaphysical archetype into matter, by means of a vertical causation across the three layers: spiritual, animic (soul), corporeal (body).

Differently, a material macroevolution, or macro-morphing, of a being A to a being B would be a step-by-step analytic process, which — as we have seen — can never reach the limit of the target “true whole”. If the limit unit is not reached, and the beings are units, they neither can be produced by such analytic manner nor we can speak of “perfection”, neither about the process nor about its result. Goes without saying that such analytic process fails also because doesn’t work at all on the spiritual and animic planes.

As a consequence, only the above synthetic “vertical causation” can account for the “perfection of the production of perfect beings”, as Aquinas puts it. Any analytic serial horizontal macroevolution wouldn’t be “perfect” and wouldn’t produce “perfect” beings at all. This is the reason why Aquinas speaks of “perfection of the first production of beings” and coherently denies transformism.

Of course Aquinas’ cosmologic teachings about creatures’ origin, which are rigorously based on ontological principles, agree perfectly with the modern perspective of engineering. To provide a practical example, engineers never physically transform — say — cars into airplanes, rather they design in abstracto and assembly cars and airplanes independently. Also engineers apply an intelligent “vertical causation”, from abstract archetypes to material systems. No wonder, it couldn’t be otherwise because truth, at any level, is necessarily coherent, and the principles of intelligent design are universal.

Comments
Oderberg on Intelligent Design Theory:
Note here the difference in what I am claiming about organisms and the view associated with what has come to be known as 'intelligent design' (ID) theory. ID theorists tend to treat organisms (apart from humans) as divinely made machines that can be understood according to the principles of human engineering and other technology. And they consider the complexity of such organisms to be largely if not wholly quantifiable and subject to empirical testing.
That's from a footnote on p. 287. He cites no ID sources in support of his claims about ID. Intelligent Design theme song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Let_Me_Be_MisunderstoodMung
September 1, 2014
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StephenB:
He did write (I think) a chapter on evolution and essentialism, but I can’t remember his exact take. One thing I do remember was his hesitation to accept ID for reasons that most of us have long since dealt with.
I think you are probably referring to the chapter that I am currently reading, Species, biological and metaphysical. He doesn't really give any ground to the Darwinists, imo, showing how their ideas about essentialism are for the most part misguided and irrelevant. But he does not find any metaphysical reason why members of one species could not give rise to a new species. Note that this is not a species changing. It is the appearance of a new species.Mung
September 1, 2014
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niwrad:
Nothing of what you write or cite shows that Aquinas stated that man was produced by “ensoulment” of animal.
If you are talking about his view on the first man I don't find that relevant to the argument I am making. I already pointed out that Aquinas taught the immediate creation of the first man by God. niwrad:
“Ensoulment” of animal is nonsense for the principles of his own worldview. He would be horrified by the idea.
Let's permit Aquinas to speak for himself.
[7] This truth [the immediate creation of each human soul by God] also seems to be implied in sacred Scripture, for in speaking of the formation of other animals, it ascribes their souls to other causes, as in the text: “Let the waters bring forth the creeping creatures with a living soul” (Gen. 1:20), and so it is with other things. But when man is spoken of later on, the creation of his soul by God is revealed: “God formed man of the slime of the earth, and breathed into his face the breath of life” (Gen. 2:7). http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles2.htm#87
I wonder what he means by "other animals." As to what Oderberg was referring to, if we're talking about any text from Aquinas it is more likely to be this one:
[3] Moreover, as Aristotle teaches in the De generation animalium [II, 3], the fetus is an animal before becoming a man. But, during the time in which the fetus is an animal and not a man, it has a sensitive and not an intellective soul; and, just as in other animals, this sensitive soul in indubitably produced by the active power of the semen. And yet that same sensitive soul is potentially intellective, just as that animal is potentially a rational animal; and the notion that the supervening intellective soul is substantially distinct from the sensitive one has been refuted already. It therefore seems that the substance of the intellective soul is derived from a power in the semen. http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles2.htm#88
I humbly submit to you that you really need to re-think your stance.Mung
September 1, 2014
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Mung #99 Nothing of what you write or cite shows that Aquinas stated that man was produced by "ensoulment" of animal. Adam was a pure spiritual being before acquiring a body. "Ensoulment" of animal is nonsense for the principles of his own worldview. He would be horrified by the idea. Anyway if you want to believe that for me is ok. I give up trying to convince you. I have other things to do, so I leave you and others to continue the discussion, if you want. Thanks to all for the participation.niwrad
August 31, 2014
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Mung, you are very gracious. Also, you revived my interest in Oderberg again. I read "Essentialism" last year, but it was a book I borrowed from library, so I had to return it sooner than I would have liked. He did write (I think) a chapter on evolution and essentialism, but I can't remember his exact take. One thing I do remember was his hesitation to accept ID for reasons that most of us have long since dealt with. LOLStephenB
August 31, 2014
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Mung: Why does niwrad honor you for defending his position if you’re not willing to defend his position? StephenB: That comment is toally without warrant. I apologize. At times I think I am just so witty and just can't wait to have others observe my wittiness. (Pettiness might be more apt.) =P I knew it was an unnecessary barb when I wrote it. PeaceMung
August 31, 2014
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niwrad,
But it is contrary to the nature of the perfection of the first production of beings that God would make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body.
But Aquinas isn't talking about the same thing here as you are. Aquinas is talking about the creation of the first man, Adam, and answering a completely different objection on a completely different matter.
Objection 1. It would seem that the body of the first man was not made of the slime of the earth. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1091.htm#article1
And it's evident from the title to Art IV and the nature of the 3rd objection in Art IV that it is still the creation of the first man as described in Scripture that is in mind. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1091.htm#article4 It is also evident that after the soul departs the body, the matter that was the living body itself has a substantial form, but one that is different. So here we have from conception through birth and life and in death at least three different substantial forms.
It is reasonable that soul cannot be in act before the organization of the body is developed enough.
And I don't think that is reasonable at all and I shall do my best to explain why. Simply, except prime matter, there is no matter without form. In addition, what is it that brings about the development of the body to the point that it is "developed enough" for the soul to be present "in act"? It may be a developing embryo, but that is still what it is, and thus it has a substantial form. I've got to thank you anyways for getting me reading Oderberg again. :) niwrad:
Oderberg and other modern thinkers misunderstand Aquinas because they basically have a reductive and evolutionist conception of man as a not integrated set of pieces.
You haven't read Oderberg, have you. I'd recommend him. He's often quoted by Feser. ;)Mung
August 31, 2014
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Mung #95 Likely the incorrect view of Oderberg is based on the following statement by Aquinas:
"For, since the soul is united to the body as its form, it is united to the body as its proper act. Now the soul ‘is the act of an organic body’ (Aristotle, II De Anima, 412b, 5-6) Therefore, the soul does not exist in the semen in act before the organization of the body." (Summa Contra Gentiles, II, ch. 89)
The key point in the above quote is indeed "in act". It is reasonable that soul cannot be in act before the organization of the body is developed enough. No one pretends that a new born is just intellectually in full action at 40 days from the conception. It is not even 40 months after the birth! Aquinas meant that at the human conception the rational soul is in potency. Otherwise Aquinas couldn't have stated: "But it is contrary to the nature of the perfection of the first production of beings that God would make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body”. Aquinas rightly assumes that to infuse a human soul in a pre-existent animal body is not perfection of creation. Oderberg and other modern thinkers misunderstand Aquinas because they basically have a reductive and evolutionist conception of man as a not integrated set of pieces.niwrad
August 31, 2014
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Thomas Aquinas Was a Transformist!
Interestingly, the personist view of human beings is in some ways similar to the Scholastic view, held by Aquinas among other others (following Aristotle), of 'delayed ensoulment', whereby the rational soul was thought to come into existence at least forty days after conception. ... they thought that what existed immediately prior to rational ensoulment (itself an act of God) was an animal that was sufficiently materially complex to be turned, by substantial transformation, into a body made human by the infusion of a rational soul. - David S. Oderberg. Real Essentialism, p. 250
Mung
August 31, 2014
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E. Seigner,
They know what an accidental death looks like as distinguished from murder and in each new case they look for the same patterns.
Irrelevant to the order of events. Forensic scientists do not presuppose intentional homicide nor do they presuppose accidental death. None of the sciences I listed are presuppositional. They are all evidence based. They allow the evidence to speak and then draw an inference to the best explanation. Pattern analysis, when it is used, is not the process; it is part of the process. The methods involved in all these sciences requires a step-by-step process that always begins and ends the same way. Do you know these steps and can you articulate them in the proper order? If not, then please do not waste any more of my time. I have little patience for willfully ignorant people that resist remedial education.StephenB
August 30, 2014
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Mung @ 85
Why not just quote Aquinas as saying that God created the body of the first man directly from the slime of the earth and be done with it?
That's a lot simpler argument. Aquinas makes it a statement of fact - absolutely clear, no ambiguity. Evolution from animal to man is rejected outright. ... I know, there are all sorts of ways of getting around this if you really want to, and that's what today's neo-Thomist theistic evolutionists will invariably do. As for Thomas as a YEC - I don't believe he said anything about the age of the earth so it's more of an open question (not 100% certain about that).Silver Asiatic
August 30, 2014
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StephenB
Excuse me, but this is total nonsense. None of the relevant sciences presuppose human agency. If they did, they wouldn’t be science. Forensic scientists use evidence to differentiate between accidental death and murder. They do not presuppose murder.
They know what an accidental death looks like as distinguished from murder and in each new case they look for the same patterns. Nobody detects murder. It's not even in the vocabulary. It's possible to witness murder though. And they definitely presuppose one or the other, either death due to murder or due to other causes. Murder has to be established or eliminated, and they go over the relevant signs.
Archaeologists detect design in artifacts. Otherwise, they could not differentiate between clay and a clay pot They do not presuppose the clay pot.
"Detect design" is not in the vocabulary. Archeologists know what clay pots look like and compare and match them to new findings.
Cryptanalysists use the same method to break codes and detect real messages from meaningless sequences of characters. .They do not presuppose meaning.
Pattern-matching.
Academics use design detection to catch plagiarists. They do not presuppose plagiarism
Again, "design detection" is definitely not in the vocabulary. It's a search for matching paragraphs, sentences, and phrases.
Arson investigators follow the evidence to determine the cause of fire, whether it was by design or by chance. They do not presuppose arson.
Same as with those who investigate causes of death.
SETI searches for meaningful messages from outer space. They do not presuppose extra-terrestrial intelligence.
I'm quite sure they presuppose the possibility of finding what they are looking for. Otherwise why would they do it?
Insurance investigators use design detection to investigate the possibility of fraud. They do not presuppose fraud.
But they need to methodically eliminate the chances of fraud, so this is exactly what they are looking for. Meaning: yes, they presuppose the possibility and they go through the relevant patterns and scenarios. You deliberately misread what I meant by presupposing. But okay, it's easy to misread it when you are not used to catch yourself from presuppositions. You take so much for granted that it shows in your vocabulary. At no point did we detect any design or intelligence. Those are not objective things to be detected. We have fundamentally different ideas what's going on in those cases. We also have different ideas about what constitutes science.
“But feel free to suggest how ID theory could benefit anyone involved in their conclusions. What do ID concepts add to the situation that we don’t have now?” So, I provided a specific answer to a specific question. In response, you resort to a cheap round of motive mongering. Obviously, you do not rate the courtesy that I have extended to you.
You mean your remarks "to discredit neo-Darwinism, one of the most destructive ideas to ever plague the mind of man" were seriously meant as answer to my question? Well, you actually noticed that I thanked you for this already, even though I didn't close the quote correctly in the end of my previous message. Thanks again.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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E Seigner
At no point did we detect any design.
Yes, we did. We detected the designed activity of an intelligent agent, a burglar, by ruling out the law-like regularity of a natural process, a tornado.
There’s a difference between detection and presupposition.
A presupposition begins with a concept; an inference, which defines detection, begins with an observation.
I don’t detect that tv sets are designed by intelligent agents. I presuppose it.
Irrelevant. If you found a functional machine on the planet Mars, you would infer that it was the designed product an intelligent agent.
When my jewelry is gone, I have to recall where I last left it. If I know for sure where it should be but it’s not there, then someone took it. But was it a burglar or a magpie, there’s no telling unless there’s additional context again. At no point is it detection in the relevant sense, but contextual deduction.
Your are confusing yourself again by introducing irrelevant and extraneous material. The issue is not who took the jewelry. The issue is, what is the best explanation for a messy living room; a burglar or a tornado. The missing jewelry, along with several other factors, such as selectively broken glass open dresser drawers are the evidence to be considered.
And what you call design inference is either incoherent or irrelevant given the examples.
I have already proven both of those claims to be false.
And given Aquinas’ metaphysics, design is everywhere, i.e. “design inference” is utterly trivial.
Aquinas' metaphysical model, elegant as it is, has nothing at all do with ID's scientific methods for challenging the neo-Darwinist claims, which is that science is proven that design is an illusion. You must confront that subject if you want to attain credibility in these discussions.
Without even looking them up, I can safely say none of these uses ID theory. All of them use pattern-matching, searching repetitious patterns. None of them has any use for the concept of “specified complex information”. All of them presuppose that the data under investigation is information of some level, caused by agents with will and intellect, and they interpret the data based on these presuppositions. All “design” in the data is obviously projected by the metaphysics. It’s not in the physics.
Excuse me, but this is total nonsense. None of the relevant sciences presuppose human agency. If they did, they wouldn’t be science. Forensic scientists use evidence to differentiate between accidental death and murder. They do not presuppose murder. Archaeologists detect design in artifacts. Otherwise, they could not differentiate between clay and a clay pot They do not presuppose the clay pot. Cryptanalysists use the same method to break codes and detect real messages from meaningless sequences of characters. .They do not presuppose meaning. Academics use design detection to catch plagiarists. They do not presuppose plagiarism Arson investigators follow the evidence to determine the cause of fire, whether it was by design or by chance. They do not presuppose arson. SETI searches for meaningful messages from outer space. They do not presuppose extra-terrestrial intelligence. Insurance investigators use design detection to investigate the possibility of fraud. They do not presuppose fraud. You really need to abandon this line of reasoning, if, indeed, we can characterize it as reasoning.
I see. So, ID theory is really a campaign with an agenda, not science. You are on a crusade to discredit Neo-Darwinism. This entirely explains why there’s no identifiable method, no coherent terminology, and no sensible background metaphysics. It’s because there’s something else altogether that is more important than science to you. Suddenly it all makes sense. Thanks for telling.
You began by asking this question: "But feel free to suggest how ID theory could benefit anyone involved in their conclusions. What do ID concepts add to the situation that we don’t have now?" So, I provided a specific answer to a specific question. In response, you resort to a cheap round of motive mongering. Obviously, you do not rate the courtesy that I have extended to you.StephenB
August 30, 2014
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(follow up #89) ... the cosmos and last but not least life in general ...Box
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner: By the way, do you notice what is going on with all of your scenarios? They all concern human agency. That’s the only case where “design inference” seems to work to “detect intelligent design”. There’s an obvious reason for this. Namely, given human civilization, we can presuppose human agency for artefacts within a certain range of shapes and structures, and for common human behaviours. The “design inference” completely fails outside that range. You have no examples of non-human agency that could serve as evidence to infer design or a designer.
Actually we do have plenty examples of non-human agency. Beavers, birds’ nests, termite mounds, etcBox
August 30, 2014
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I see. So, ID theory is really a campaign with an agenda, not science.
Yep. Right there with global warming.Mung
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner:
By the way, do you notice what is going on with all of your scenarios? They all concern human agency. That’s the only case where “design inference” seems to work to “detect intelligent design”.
But design is objectively undetectable, you said so yourself. And therefore ID theory is impossible. Do you likewise think that order is objectively undetectable?Mung
August 30, 2014
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niwrad
Pattern-matching is eminently “specified complex information”. Pattern-matching is even an extremely tricky branch of computer programming. It is evident you never used it and have no idea about.
Pattern-matching is not itself information, but a procedure performed on data presupposing that the data could have the quality of information, message or program. StephenB
We are discussing the inferential process by which design is detected.
At no point did we detect any design. There are contexts where we presuppose design, and this presupposition, given certain legal or cultural contexts, is all we do. There's a difference between detection and presupposition. I don't detect that tv sets are designed by intelligent agents. I presuppose it. When my jewelry is gone, I have to recall where I last left it. If I know for sure where it should be but it's not there, then someone took it. But was it a burglar or a magpie, there's no telling unless there's additional context again. At no point is it detection in the relevant sense, but contextual deduction.
They would say the same thing you said. Natural causes were not responsible for the chaos. The design inference detects the presence of intelligence.
And what you call design inference is either incoherent or irrelevant given the examples. And given Aquinas' metaphysics, design is everywhere, i.e. "design inference" is utterly trivial.
Actually, that isn’t correct. When an archeologist detects design in an ancient hunter’s spear, he is drawing an inference, recognizing that wind, air, and erosion cannot explain the form. The evidence suggests the presence of intelligent agency and the existence of an artifact.
This is clearly not what's happening in archeology. Archeologists recognize artefacts because they already know other similar artefacts. This is pattern-matching where human agency is presupposed. By the way, do you notice what is going on with all of your scenarios? They all concern human agency. That's the only case where "design inference" seems to work to "detect intelligent design". There's an obvious reason for this. Namely, given human civilization, we can presuppose human agency for artefacts within a certain range of shapes and structures, and for common human behaviours. The "design inference" completely fails outside that range. You have no examples of non-human agency that could serve as evidence to infer design or a designer. And it's not inference anyway, but presupposition or contextual deduction, in support of which we match familiar patterns.
How about the ability to create new interest in the philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas? How about the ability to discredit neo-Darwinism, one of the most destructive ideas to ever plague the mind of man? ... You seem to have forgotten about the thesis that ID is challenging. Neo-Darwinism... I see. So, ID theory is really a campaign with an agenda, not science. You are on a crusade to discredit Neo-Darwinism. This entirely explains why there's no identifiable method, no coherent terminology, and no sensible background metaphysics. It's because there's something else altogether that is more important than science to you. Suddenly it all makes sense. Thanks for telling.
E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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niwrad, Why not just quote Aquinas as saying that God created the body of the first man directly from the slime of the earth and be done with it?
I answer that, The first formation of the human body could not be by the instrumentality of any created power, but was immediately from God. ... So a form which is in matter can only be the cause of another form that is in matter, according as composite is made by composite. Now God, though He is absolutely immaterial, can alone by His own power produce matter by creation: wherefore He alone can produce a form in matter, without the aid of any preceding material form. For this reason the angels cannot transform a body except by making use of something in the nature of a seed, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 19). Therefore as no pre-existing body has been formed whereby another body of the same species could be generated, the first human body was of necessity made immediately by God. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1091.htm#article2
Aquinas does not deny that the formation of a body can be by the instrumentality of a created power, but rather that this was not the case with respect to the first human body. He admits that a form which is in matter can be the cause of another form that is in matter. He admits a body can be transformed given something in the nature of a seed, following Augustine.Mung
August 30, 2014
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E. Seigner
Maybe I should have added from the beginning another issue that plagues all these scenarios: “Design” is an incidental, practically irrelevant characteristic here. The more immediate concerns are things like how and why of the event and the specific agent, the guilty person, not some “intelligent design”. Those are specific concerns, and even they are so highly interpretative and arguable that they are not any kind of precise science. Criminal investigators are not considered scientists. They may consult scientists and experts for an opinion, but their own investigation is not a precise science.
We are discussing the inferential process by which design is detected. We are not discussing the hundreds of other techniques used by law-enforcement officials. If you don’t think forensic science is real science, we can discuss that point as well. .
And they would think, “Hmm, indeed looks very much like intelligent design. Yep, this explains it
Explains what? They would say the same thing you said. Natural causes were not responsible for the chaos. The design inference detects the presence of intelligence. It doesn’t presume to serve as a substitute for all other means of investigation.
Are you serious? Have you ever met a policeman? When you turn to them to report that something has been stolen from you, you will be confronted with the attitude designed to remove your desire to report your case. If you persist, you will face questions that will make you doubt that you had the thing in the first place. Psychological game will be all over you and there will be tons of scenarios applied to the facts. Throughout, “design” will be a totally irrelevant aspect. Design will be an irrelevant consideration because, as Aquinas points out, everything is designed, created, so this is the least of anyone’s worries.
At the moment, we are not discussing psychology, Aquinas, or the games people play. The issue on the table is the formal (and informal) method by which one rules out a natural cause and affirms an intelligent cause.
But feel free to suggest how ID theory could benefit anyone ….
How about the ability to detect the difference between a murder and an accidental death? How about the ability to create new interest in the philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas? How about the ability to discredit neo-Darwinism, one of the most destructive ideas to ever plague the mind of man?
Let’s reiterate. ID theory is impossible because design is objectively undetectable – except in cases where it’s blatantly obvious, but in those cases we are already looking at a myriad of things that demand far more urgent attention. I see no way to define design other than structure or order, in which case it can be found absolutely everywhere in the universe, just like Aquinas says. Attempts to distinguish design from non-design are as incoherent as attempts to distinguish warm from cold, in fact even more incoherent than that.
You seem to have forgotten about the thesis that ID is challenging. Neo-Darwinism holds that Aquinas, and anyone who agrees with him, including you and I, are wrong to believe that design is obvious—or even true. On the contrary, they claim to have shown through scientific methods that biological design is an illusion. For neo-Darwinists, living organisms simply give the “appearance” of design. They aren’t really designed at all. ID says—wait, not so fast, let’s take the data, use your own methods, compare your hypothesis with ours, (design vs. law/chance), and follow the evidence where it leads. We win every time.
Without even looking them up, I can safely say none of these uses ID theory. All of them use pattern-matching, searching repetitious patterns. None of them has any use for the concept of “specified complex information”. All of them presuppose that the data under investigation is information of some level, caused by agents with will and intellect, and they interpret the data based on these presuppositions. All “design” in the data is obviously projected by the metaphysics. It’s not in the physics.
Actually, that isn’t correct. When an archeologist detects design in an ancient hunter’s spear, he is drawing an inference, recognizing that wind, air, and erosion cannot explain the form. The evidence suggests the presence of intelligent agency and the existence of an artifact. He doesn't presuppose human agency. It is the same process by which he infers that the symbols and messages on the inside of a cave were not caused by the weather.StephenB
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner #78
Without even looking them up [anthropology, archeology, forensic sciences, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence], I can safely say none of these uses ID theory. All of them use pattern-matching, searching repetitious patterns. None of them has any use for the concept of “specified complex information”.
Pattern-matching is eminently "specified complex information”. Pattern-matching is even an extremely tricky branch of computer programming. It is evident you never used it and have no idea about.niwrad
August 30, 2014
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CLAVDIVS, I'm sorry if you took offence to my 'blunt' comment at 71. I did not mean it towards you personally.bornagain77
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner:
ID theory is impossible because design is objectively undetectable – except in cases where it’s blatantly obvious ...
Design is objectively undetectable. Except when it isn't objectively undetectable. Therefore ID theory is impossible. Irrational much?
I see no way to define design other than structure or order...
If design depended on your personal definition it wouldn't be scientific.
I see no way to define design other than structure or order, in which case it can be found absolutely everywhere in the universe, just like Aquinas says.
Order is everywhere, but so is absence of order. ID however does not define lack of order as not designed. If you understood ID arguments you would know why this is so, but it's pretty obvious by now that you have no interest in understanding.
Attempts to distinguish design from non-design are as incoherent as attempts to distinguish warm from cold, in fact even more incoherent than that.
Why do you persist in repeating this canard? This is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with intelligent design. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly. You are demonstrating that you're just another anti-ID bigot, impervious to countervailing evidence and reason. Congratulations.Mung
August 30, 2014
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Mung #79
Aquinas:"new species too, if any appeared, pre-existed in certain active principles"
To "pre-exist in certain active principles" has nothing to do with modern evolutionism.
Against the YEC’s we have God continuing to make things after the seventh day.
Again, "God continuing to make things" has nothing to do with evolutionism, because it is obvious that metaphysically God continues to create the world here and now.
We have God making the form of woman from the form of a rib. If that’s not transformism what would be?
No transformism, pure design. "Making the form of woman from the form of a rib" has to be interpreted symbolically (as near all Genesis has to be). The design of woman is that of man with design variants.
We have the acknowledgement of at least the potential appearance of new species.
As already said, new species can appear (microevolution) because they are under the threshold of kind / family (macro-evolution is above such threshold).
Bobik allows for evolution of the body within Aquinas.
That's Bobik's opinion, there are multitudes of Thomist theistic evolutionists out there. If you want to cite all them, you will finish "the week of three Thursday" as they say in my country.niwrad
August 30, 2014
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Thomas Aquinas contra Anti-Transformism:
... nothing which was made by God afterwards [i.e., after the seventh day] is totally new; indeed all such things had preceded in some way in the works of the six days. Some of them had pre-existed materially, as the woman had in the rib of Adam out of which God formed her. Others pre-existed in the works of the six days not only materially, but also causally, as the individuals which are now being generated; they were there causally in the first individuals of their species. And new species too, if any appeared, pre-existed in certain active principles ... - (S.T., I, q. 73, a. 1, ad 3)
From Bobik, Joseph. Aquinas on Matter and Form and the Elements. p. 220 So here we have a few interesting points. Against the YEC's we have God continuing to make things after the seventh day. We have God making the form of woman from the form of a rib. If that's not transformism what would be? We have the acknowledgement of at least the potential appearance of new species. The only limit placed on this by Aquinas here being that they pre-exist in whatever they originate from. I fail to see how this is a bar to "macro-evolution." Aquinas cites with favor the position of Augustine:
... as Augustine teaches, two things are to be observed in questions of this kind. The first is this: to hold to the truth of Scripture unwaveringly. The second is this, since divine Scripture can be interpreted in many ways: not to adhere so tenaciously to a given exposition of it as to presume to assert it as the meaning of Scripture, if it has been shown with certitude to be false; lest Scripture be ridiculed by those who do not believe, and obstacles be placed in the way of their becoming believers. - (S.T., I, q. 68, a. 1, c.) Bobik p. 220-221
Bobik, like Kreeft, allows for evolution of the body within Aquinas:
Applying the immediately preceding (pp. 205-207) to the three works of the initial six-day production of corporeal creatures ... one can see in Aquinas' thinking a kind of primitive and implicit version of a physical universe which has banged out of, expanded out of, an initially infinitesimally miniscule one, coupled with a similarly primitive and implicit version of the evolution of life on the planet Earth. A bare outline this expansion of the universe, and of this evolution of life, was presented above on pp. 195-199. - Bobik, p. 207
In a footnote on p. 197: Man was there, but only with respect to the body, not the soul. I recommend this book to anyone wanted to dig deeper into the question raised by the OP. Further:
The elements [in Aquinas: fire, air, water and earth] depend on the heavens and the heavenly bodies not only for their existence as elements, but also for their transformations into one another, and for their becoming ingredients of mixed bodies, and in a determinate order from the lower (less perfect) to the higher (more perfect) sorts. This will make clear how the four elements fit into the developmental (in a way, evolutionary) tria opera of God's creative production of corporeal creatures, i.e., into the opus creationis, the opus distinctionis and the opus ornatus, in which there is a passage from being not yet fully formed to becoming progressively more fully formed. - Bobik, p. 199
To me, that sounds like transformism.Mung
August 30, 2014
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StephenB
First, you can, as you discovered, draw the inference to design (a burglar) by ruling out natural causes (a tornado). If it was, as you say, an impossible process or an incoherent concept, you could not have made the inference. ID and several other scientific disciplines use the same process, albeit in a more formalized way.
Maybe I should have added from the beginning another issue that plagues all these scenarios: "Design" is an incidental, practically irrelevant characteristic here. The more immediate concerns are things like how and why of the event and the specific agent, the guilty person, not some "intelligent design". Those are specific concerns, and even they are so highly interpretative and arguable that they are not any kind of precise science. Criminal investigators are not considered scientists. They may consult scientists and experts for an opinion, but their own investigation is not a precise science.
Second, other observers can arrive at the same conclusion by using other evidence, such as the open dresser drawers or the selectively broken glass around the windows. Your report that the jewelry is missing simply increases the probability of an intelligent cause and decreases the probability of a natural cause.
And they would think, "Hmm, indeed looks very much like intelligent design. Yep, this explains it!"? You have not shown in any way how ID could begin to be a coherent usable concept and how it could be formalised for any sensible purpose.
"I could show proofs of purchase but this would not be proof of where I kept the jewelry and so on and so forth." Irrelevant to the inferential process. Either way, it is just one piece of evidence among many.
Are you serious? Have you ever met a policeman? When you turn to them to report that something has been stolen from you, you will be confronted with the attitude designed to remove your desire to report your case. If you persist, you will face questions that will make you doubt that you had the thing in the first place. Psychological game will be all over you and there will be tons of scenarios applied to the facts. Throughout, "design" will be a totally irrelevant aspect. Design will be an irrelevant consideration because, as Aquinas points out, everything is designed, created, so this is the least of anyone's worries. But feel free to suggest how ID theory could benefit anyone involved in their conclusions. What do ID concepts add to the situation that we don't have now?
In the beginning, you said that the inferential process by which design is detected was “impossible” and “incoherent.” Now, after having been disabused of that notion, you agree that it is possible and coherent, but you want to change the subject and claim that it is not science. If you keep moving the goalposts, we will get nowhere.
Sorry for the false impression. Let's reiterate. ID theory is impossible because design is objectively undetectable - except in cases where it's blatantly obvious, but in those cases we are already looking at a myriad of things that demand far more urgent attention. I see no way to define design other than structure or order, in which case it can be found absolutely everywhere in the universe, just like Aquinas says. Attempts to distinguish design from non-design are as incoherent as attempts to distinguish warm from cold, in fact even more incoherent than that.
In any case, the design inference which I helped you through is the same process used in anthropology, archeology, forensic sciences, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
Without even looking them up, I can safely say none of these uses ID theory. All of them use pattern-matching, searching repetitious patterns. None of them has any use for the concept of "specified complex information". All of them presuppose that the data under investigation is information of some level, caused by agents with will and intellect, and they interpret the data based on these presuppositions. All "design" in the data is obviously projected by the metaphysics. It's not in the physics.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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E Seigner
What scientific bearing does your question have? Sure I can infer there was criminal intent behind the disappearance of the jewelry – from my own point of view – but the same “evidence” matters zilch for outsiders such as police, because it’s my job to establish that I had any jewelry there in the first place.
First, you can, as you discovered, draw the inference to design (a burglar) by ruling out natural causes (a tornado). If it was, as you say, an impossible process or an incoherent concept, you could not have made the inference. ID and several other scientific disciplines use the same process, albeit in a more formalized way. Second, other observers can arrive at the same conclusion by using other evidence, such as the open dresser drawers or the selectively broken glass around the windows. Your report that the jewelry is missing simply increases the probability of an intelligent cause and decreases the probability of a natural cause.
I could show proofs of purchase but this would not be proof of where I kept the jewelry and so on and so forth.
Irrelevant to the inferential process. Either way, it is just one piece of evidence among many.
I assume that when you talk about evidence, there should be some broader bearing than just me, right?
Evidence can be known by few or by many. Evidence is evidence.
Your question has nothing to do with science, no matter how long it persists for you.
I said that "my question persists" as a diplomatic way of saying that you may have missed it and to refrain from saying that you were running away from it. In the beginning, you said that the inferential process by which design is detected was "impossible" and "incoherent." Now, after having been disabused of that notion, you agree that it is possible and coherent, but you want to change the subject and claim that it is not science. If you keep moving the goalposts, we will get nowhere. In any case, the design inference which I helped you through is the same process used in anthropology, archeology, forensic sciences, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. In each case, the inference is based on empirical evidence. In the simple case I designed for you, the evidence was, among other things, the open dresser drawers, the missing jewelry, and the selectively broken glass. By that process, you ruled out a natural cause and affirmed an intelligent cause. We do the same thing every day and in many ways. ID, and other historical sciences, simply formalize and quantify the process.StephenB
August 30, 2014
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@William J Murray I didn't confuse you with anyone. I just assumed you had read up on the discussion. Please do now.
[Intelligent design is, g]enerally speaking, functionally specified complex information beyond the known capacity of the subset categories’ ability to produce, either separately or in combination. This is why your “warm and cold” analogy is inappropriate; warm and cold are ambiguous or at best arbitrary concepts.
It's glaringly obvious how warm and cold is precisely the right analogy. In defining the intelligent design, you just pile undefined concepts on undefined concepts, such as: - functionally specified complex information - known capacity - subset categories' ability to produce What are "subset categories" so that they would have the ability to produce? Produce what? Produce "complex information"? Information is not information without interpretation, so this requires an interpreter and this in turn highlights all the problems I have already mentioned. What is the "known capacity"? Is it some level of "complex information" beyond which it can be determined to be due to an intelligent cause? How do you ensure that this level is not arbitrary? How do you ensure the level is unambiguous and understood the same way by all? To me it looks as arbitrary as the line between warm and cold. Moreover, if "complex information" beyond a set point is due to intelligent agent, then below that point the "complex information" is due to other, "unintelligent" causes, which makes the concept of information incoherent - unintelligent causes don't produce information in the relevant sense, much less "complex information". By the way, why is it "functionally specified complex information"? Is it to be distinguished from "unspecified simple information"? Looks like you are not really talking about information at all here. In conclusion, everything is undefined from the beginning to the end. You have not a single concept that science uses or could use.
There may be some gray area, but chance and natural law as subcategories are insuffucient subset aspects of the superset ID to create a computer or a 747 or this post by themselves. You know it and I know it; it’s certainly not ambiguous.
This blatantly disregards my earlier point that of course there's evident heat when a house burns, but this does nothing to refute the fact that warm and cold are on the same unbroken continuum and both are really modes of temperature. You did not manage to frame ID differently than warm and cold. I argue that we don't detect design or intelligent design. We observe structure and order. Some structure and order is culturally interpreted as stemming from human agents. The rest of structure and order is natural, God-given. There's some structure and order throughout, and there's nothing inherently special about man-made "design" that would make it separately detectable other than in the sense of culture and art, which are not the topic of precise sciences. Aquinas makes precisely the same point.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner said:
In this discussion you keep throwing some silly scenarios at me which should make it obvious that some design is there.
You have me confused with someone else. That was my first post in this thread.
What are the identifiable characteristics of (intelligent) design? How do you define them?
Generally speaking, functionally specified complex information beyond the known capacity of the subset categories' ability to produce, either separately or in combination. This is why your "warm and cold" analogy is inappropriate; warm and cold are ambiguous or at best arbitrary concepts. If, however, one examines what natural law produces, and what "chance" produces, there are categorical limitations wrt FSCI that are not arbitrary or, beyond a certain point, ambiguous. There may be some gray area, but chance and natural law as subcategories are insuffucient subset aspects of the superset ID to create a computer or a 747 or this post by themselves. You know it and I know it; it's certainly not ambiguous. To argue otherwise is to deny the obvious. There's no good reason to claim that the differential between what the subcategories can achieve by themselves and what what can be achieved inclusive of what lies outside of those subsets is not a scientifically measurable commodity. It seems to me to be more a matter of a philosophical a priori to insist that the subsets cannot be distinguished from the surrounding ID than a matter of logcial, practical or scientific limitation.William J Murray
August 30, 2014
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Which should not be surprising since, being made in God's image for a relationship with God, we were 'designed' to intuitively recognize design,,
Children are born believers in God, academic claims - 24 Nov 2008 Excerpt: "Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html Young Children Think Like Scientists - 27 September 2012 Excerpt: "What these experiments show if you give the children one of these causal problems like figuring out how the machine works and then just leave the video recorder running, what you see is when the child[ren] are just spontaneously playing. … What they do is to do a bunch of experiments that will give them just information they need to figure out how the toy works," Gopnick said. http://www.livescience.com/23522-young-children-think-like-scientists.html Geometric Principles Appear Universal in Our Minds - May 2011 Excerpt: Villagers belonging to an Amazonian group called the Mundurucú intuitively grasp abstract geometric principles despite having no formal math education,,, Mundurucú adults and 7- to 13-year-olds demonstrate as firm an understanding of the properties of points, lines and surfaces as adults and school-age children in the United States and France,,, http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/05/universal-geometry/ “Geometry is unique and eternal, a reflection from the mind of God. That mankind shares in it is because man is an image of God.” – Johannes Kepler Belief in God is a Properly Basic Belief (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/Arguments-About-God-Alvin-Plantinga-/1261 Another interesting argument comes from the leading philosopher and Christian, Alvin Plantinga—he asked, what evidence does anyone have for the existence of other people’s minds? He argued cogently that the evidence for God is just as good as the evidence for other minds; and conversely, if there isn’t any evidence for God, then there is also no evidence that other minds exist—see God and Other Minds, Cornell University Press, repr. 1990. http://creation.com/atheism-is-more-rational
supplemental note:
Look Who's Irrational Now - 2008 Excerpt: "What Americans Really Believe," a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html
bornagain77
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