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Thomas Aquinas contra Transformism

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In my previous post Synthesis-versus-Analysis I dealt with the distinction between “true whole” and “false whole”. Now let’s see how that had relations with Aquinas and his refutation of biological macroevolution.

About the origin of man and the relations between his soul and body, Aquinas was clear:

Reply to objection 3: Some have claimed that the [first] man’s body was formed antecedently in time, and that later on God infused a soul into the already formed body. But it is contrary to the nature of the perfection of the first production of beings that God would make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body; for each of them is a part of human nature. It is especially inappropriate to make the body without the soul, since the body depends on the soul, but not vice versa. [Summa Theologiae, 91, IV]

Note that the above quote especially applies to the negation of the arise of man from a non-human being (anthropoid). But in general denies the material macroevolution of any living being, because no being is inanimate (also if obviously human soul is incomparably higher than any animal soul) and Aquinas states that “soul is the form of the body” (in Scholasticism, in general, the “form” is the qualitative “principle” or “essence” of a thing):

Reply to objection 3: […] But since the soul is the form of the body, it does not have esse separately from the body’s esse; instead, it is united to the body directly through its own esse. [ibidem, 76, VII]

We can conclude that Aquinas is contra universal macroevolution in principle, because macroevolution is transformation of bodies only, while in Aquinas soul and body are not separable and the latter causatively depends on the former. By the way, this crystalline Aquinas’ position, shows how inconsistent are some Catholics (or even neo-Thomists!) who think to can believe, in the same time, in the Catholic doctrine (of which Aquinas is the master reference) and biological transformism.

But here I want to elaborate a bit specifically the above Aquinas statement: “But it is contrary to the nature of the perfection of the first production of beings that God would make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body”.

Beings are “perfect” because they are “true wholes”. If they are “true wholes” then their constitution / organization spiritus-anima-corpus must be an integrated “unit” or “oneness”. As I said in the linked post a “true whole” is a synthesis that can be neither produced nor conceived by analysis, rather only by means of “synthetic knowledge” (related to intelligent design). Because of such “synthetic knowledge” any kind of being is a top-down manifestation / instantiation of a metaphysical archetype into matter, by means of a vertical causation across the three layers: spiritual, animic (soul), corporeal (body).

Differently, a material macroevolution, or macro-morphing, of a being A to a being B would be a step-by-step analytic process, which — as we have seen — can never reach the limit of the target “true whole”. If the limit unit is not reached, and the beings are units, they neither can be produced by such analytic manner nor we can speak of “perfection”, neither about the process nor about its result. Goes without saying that such analytic process fails also because doesn’t work at all on the spiritual and animic planes.

As a consequence, only the above synthetic “vertical causation” can account for the “perfection of the production of perfect beings”, as Aquinas puts it. Any analytic serial horizontal macroevolution wouldn’t be “perfect” and wouldn’t produce “perfect” beings at all. This is the reason why Aquinas speaks of “perfection of the first production of beings” and coherently denies transformism.

Of course Aquinas’ cosmologic teachings about creatures’ origin, which are rigorously based on ontological principles, agree perfectly with the modern perspective of engineering. To provide a practical example, engineers never physically transform — say — cars into airplanes, rather they design in abstracto and assembly cars and airplanes independently. Also engineers apply an intelligent “vertical causation”, from abstract archetypes to material systems. No wonder, it couldn’t be otherwise because truth, at any level, is necessarily coherent, and the principles of intelligent design are universal.

Comments
To add to Behe's observation that the “Failure to acknowledge design leads to irrationality”, I will add that unless design is presupposed at some level then science itself becomes impossible.
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 Greg Bahnsen debate available at the bottom of the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://justinholcomb.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist/ The Atheist’s Guide to Intellectual Suicide – James N. Anderson PhD. - video https://vimeo.com/75897668 “If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.” - William J Murray
In fact to deny design altogether leads to the epistemological failure of science.
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ Alvin Plantinga - Why No One (Can) Believe Atheism/Naturalism to be True - video Excerpt: "Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life." Richard Dawkins - quoted from "The God Delusion" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QFsKevTXs Self-refutation and the New Atheists: The Case of Jerry Coyne - Michael Egnor - September 12, 2013 Excerpt: Their (the New Atheists) ideology is a morass of bizarre self-refuting claim. They assert that science is the only way to truth, yet take no note that scientism itself isn't a scientific assertion. They assert a "skeptical" view that thoughts are only constructed artifacts of our neurological processing and have no sure contact with truth, ignoring the obvious inference that their skeptical assertion is thereby reduced to a constructed artifact with no sure contact with truth. They assert that Christianity has brought much immorality to the world, yet they deny the existence of objective morality. They assert that intelligent design is not testable, and (yet claim the counter proposition, that life is not designed, is testable). And they assert that we are determined entirely by our natural history and physical law and thereby have no free will, yet they assert this freely, claiming truth and personal exemption from determinism. Here is a case in point.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/self-refutation076541.html
Even atheists themselves, who are trained to think like 'scientists', i.e. trained to deny design no matter what the evidence says to the contrary, still cannot rid themselves of 'design thinking'.
Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html
bornagain77
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LOL @ 71, OMG, how can you not realise how completely lost that post makes you look. I'm embarrassed for you. - Doesn't address my argument - Doesn't realise I acknowledge design - Doesn't remember I'm not a materialistCLAVDIVS
August 30, 2014
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LOL @ 70, OMG, the brain damage inflicted by the blind devotion to the (unsubstantiated) materialistic worldview is much, much, worse than I suspected,,, "Failure to acknowledge design leads to irrationality" Michael Behe - Life Reeks Of Design - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdh-YcNYThYbornagain77
August 30, 2014
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Box @ 68
So why do you hold that, from a scientific point of view, we cannot infer that a Samsung tv set is designed?
Design of a TV by humans is a scientific inference. Design of a TV by an unidentified intelligence with unspecified means, motive and opportunity cannot be a scientific inference. Rather, it is a metaphysical speculation.CLAVDIVS
August 30, 2014
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William J Murray
I think you may be making a category error. Chance and natural law causes/effects may be subcategories of intelligent design, but that doesn’t mean they cannot be scientifically distinguished from each other and from the rest of the super-category.
Brilliant. Exactly in this manner I see you making the category error. The rest of what you say makes no sense at all due to undefined concepts, so I will rephrase this construct in concepts that none of us should have any quibble about. There's undeniably warm and cold. Let's say you have the Warmth Project going on and you promote the claim that some characteristics of objects are scientifically better explained by warm than by cold. Obviously, the background assumptions of this project only work as long as it is ignored that warm and cold are different occurrences of the same phenomenon, namely temperature. As soon as temperature is understood, it's understood that it makes no sense to contrast warm and cold in any strict sense. There is no absolute measure of warm versus cold. Instead there's temperature everywhere. Now, replace warm and cold with design and non-design. This is the "lower viewpoint" of your perspective (as niwrad said), whereas I interpret Aquinas to view the matter on the "temperature" level and he never stoops lower from there. Another way to construe how your project could be meaningful is to identify the characteristics of design, about the same way as characteristics of living organisms are identified in biology. The characteristics of living organisms are response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development and self-regulation. What are the identifiable characteristics of (intelligent) design? How do you define them? In this discussion you keep throwing some silly scenarios at me which should make it obvious that some design is there. Naturally I cannot deny that when a house is burning that there's warmth there, but this does nothing to refute the fact that warmth is on the same indivisible continuum with cold. This is why intelligent burglars, shrouds of Turin, Korean tv sets etc. are a red herring. They are highly arguable examples. When jewelry is stolen from me, for me it's a case of burglary alright, whereas police has to work to eliminate the possibility of, e.g. insurance fraud where I could be guilty. See how interpretative it is? It's all too argueble just like warmth and cold are perceived differently by people who live in Alaska as compared to those who live in Florida. You have failed to define your own basic terms and that's why, in my view, you don't have a scientific theory at all.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner, there is no line between design and non-design in your metaphysical position - since according to you everything is designed. However thomistic metaphysics is not fundamental to modern naturalistic science. Of course you are well aware of the fact that quite the opposite is true. So why do you hold that, from a scientific point of view, we cannot infer that a Samsung tv set is designed?Box
August 30, 2014
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IOW, if one holds the philosophical position that ID is the superset, then chance and natural law are simply distinguishable subsets. If we offer "subset ID" as a third subset which contains "everything else" not in the chance and natural law subsets, then ID would be the attempt to quantify those characteristics that define the third subset, or "everything else" not attributable to chance and natural law.William J Murray
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner, I think you may be making a category error. Chance and natural law causes/effects may be subcategories of intelligent design, but that doesn't mean they cannot be scientifically distinguished from each other and from the rest of the super-category. Subcategories C (chance) and N (natural law) are distinguishable from everything else in the super-category they inhabit, which would be what IDists call "intelligent design". If the sub-categories are not in some way distinguishable from the super-category, there wouldn't be any way to mark off a subcategory. Thus, your argument that subcategories of ID leave no means by which to identify that which is not contained by either subcategory is logically (and scientifically) erroneous. Perhaps semantically ID is not a good thing to call "everything else" in the supercategory outside of the two subcategories (chance & natural law), but that's just a matter of semantics.William J Murray
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner #64 There is no need to know exactly where the line is between design and non-design to infer that a tv set is designed. In fact it is so filled with complex functions that in any case it is surely very distant from such line. Similarly, if you go from Mexico to New York, you don't need to know exactly where the frontier line is between Mexico and USA, to infer that you stay in New York. See also: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-weak-excuse/niwrad
August 30, 2014
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So you really do not see the principled flaw that your question presupposes? The flaw is in that you cannot point out where the line is between design and non-design, but this is what is necessary to make this a scientific matter.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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E.Seigner
My point is that it’s (design detection) an incoherent concept and an impossible enterprise.
So you, before, say, a Samsung tv set, cannot infer it is designed. Or, at maximum, you can infer design only because you know there exist some Korean engineers who work hard to sell odd black boxes. You spend money for buying it not because you see the tv set working and doing some functions. For you, to detect such functions is "an incoherent concept and an impossible enterprise". ?niwrad
August 30, 2014
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@StephenB What scientific bearing does your question have? Sure I can infer there was criminal intent behind the disappearance of the jewelry - from my own point of view - but the same "evidence" matters zilch for outsiders such as police, because it's my job to establish that I had any jewelry there in the first place. I could show proofs of purchase but this would not be proof of where I kept the jewelry and so on and so forth. I assume that when you talk about evidence, there should be some broader bearing than just me, right? Your question has nothing to do with science, no matter how long it persists for you.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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E. Seigner
My point is that it’s (design detection) an incoherent concept and an impossible enterprise.
My question @51 persists: You come home, enter your living room, and find that your boxes, papers, and clothes are scattered all over the floor. Some of the furniture has been toppled. Lately, your neighborhood has been experiencing storms with damaging winds. Criminals have also been roaming the area. Was this chaos the result of intelligent activity by a burglar or by the natural activity of a tornado? Oh, there is one more piece of information: The dresser drawers are open and the jewelry is gone. Can you draw an inference about which kind of cause was at work?StephenB
August 30, 2014
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Mung
I accuse you of an anachronism and your response is to accuse the creator of the OP of an anachronism?
I didn't accuse the creator OP of anything. On the contrary, I have defended his use of the word "transform" and even offered my own explanation of what he means by it. I simply pointed out that you erroneously attributed that word to Aquinas. It was, therefore, inappropriate to ask me if his meaning of the word was the same as mine.StephenB
August 30, 2014
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Mung #53 In Q.75, Art.6, Reply to objection 1: I read: "Thus, the claim that man and the other beasts have a similar principle of generation is true with respect to the body; for all animals are alike in being made from the earth [substance]." There, Aquinas doesn't mean evolution in the modern sense at all. So I don't understand why, from that, Kreeft claims: "Bodies could have evolved [!?], but not souls." I explain his interpretation with a commitment to evolutionism. Your general accusation that "I abuse Aquinas" is odd: at the very end, in my OP I simply state that Aquinas was a creationist. Do you believe that he wasn't? That instead he was an evolutionist ante litteram?niwrad
August 30, 2014
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Silver Asiatic
Ok, you haven’t explained why it is impossible to determine, scientifically, that a fire was created by man-made design or by random cause (God-made design). But it’s important to me to know that you think this would be pseudo-science, or a category error or non-coherent. For you, there is no way, scientifically to evaluate evidence and determine an event was designed.
There's this science called criminal forensics, I guess. For them any housefire would look natural in the sense that that's what they see often enough. The fire would look as if due to natural causes if the fire started on the roof (likely lightning), less so when it started near ground or indoors (electricity failure, self-igniting materials, or arson). To suspect an accidental or wilful human agent, all other causes have to be carefully eliminated. It would be good to find an open lighter there, a can of fuel or such. Most cases like this remain unresolved because the evidence burns down with the victims. In older times conclusions were drawn bolder, nowadays far more cautiously because we are now more sensitive to the fact that astonishingly much depends on the one who draws the conclusions. Many times the conclusion is not the interpretation of forensic evidence, but of psychological motivation in an attempt to impute guilt or assumption on how the accident might have occurred. Moreover, law contains the concept "act of God" which basically means wider natural catastrophy or mayhem, and in an area at the time when such occurs, officials won't go into the details if this or that particular event was "God" or "man". They only address the general problem according to a rule of thumb they came up with for the time being. This is not a precise science and never will be. As for Shroud of Turin, it definitely depends on the one who draws the conclusions. Huge stone staircases amazingly similar to those in Egyptian and Mayan pyramids and paths of stone resembling Roman roads have been found in several places at the bottom of the Atlantic. Those who want to interpret this as clear archeological evidence of Atlantean civilization cannot be stopped, and disbelievers have no other option but to express their disbelief - and disregard the "evidence".
Yes, [Dawkins] admits that things look designed. But he says that they’re not designed — they are created by a blind watchmaker, evolution. Can a blind, purposeless process create the complex functional organisms in nature? Dawkins says, yes.
And this should tell you how astonishingly much depends on the one who draws the conclusion. Dawkins' conclusion is rationally prudent in its own way. Normally when we "detect design" we also find the designer and can ask questions about intents and purposes. Without the designer, there's no clear border between design and non-design. Dawkins' conclusion is more cautious due to lack of communication from the designer, yours is more bold, but there is and never will be any clear-cut evidence to sway people, because it's essentially a matter of internal interpretation, not of external evidence. It's like arguing over whether this or that particular thing is warm or cold. There's no way to settle on a border between warm or cold, because the border would be arbitrary in any case and the whole issue of warm and cold would still remain completely a matter of interpretation. Warm and cold is not in things per se, even though temperature can be measured. Warm and cold is in how we perceive things. Same with design. Design is not in things, even though we observe degrees of order and structure; it's crucially in how we interpret things. The interpretation depends on your metaphysics, not on the physics of the thing. When one argues with a guy like Dawkins, it's a fight between different metaphysics and between intellectual/cultural backgrounds. It's a matter of interpretation of facts, not a matter of what the facts are. Both sides agree down to details what the physical and biological facts are. What differs is the interpretation. Therefore I'd say the following to niwrad:
A same object can be seen from quite different viewpoints. When Aquinas says that in the cosmos all is order, his viewpoint in that moment, is an absolute pure metaphysical one. In fact, from such highest viewpoint all things are finally recomposed and integrated in the metaphysical total Perfection. The ID viewpoint when it examines the same objects is quite different and lower.
This lower viewpoint is already covered by normal science and ID with its faulty metaphysics has nothing to add to it. It only makes matters worse. The metaphysical baggage of materialist/atheist scientists is so thin that it is sufficiently neutral and makes the scientists efficient at their work. Problems emerge only when they extrapolate and interpret the results of their studies, but even this is not much of a problem provided that the public is perceptive enough to distinguish between the study or experiment and its wider interpretation. Since materialist metaphysics is vacuous, interpretations quickly go far and wide whichever way, so it's easy for the public to see when the scientist is outside his own area of expertise. Given that the interpretation of facts entirely depends on metaphysics (and therefore, when approaching facts, the metaphysics should be either pristine or rigorously coherent), the skewed metaphysics and flawed key concepts of the ID theory can only lower the general standards of science, not add anything to it. Plenty of evidence of this here.E.Seigner
August 30, 2014
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Mung
vjtorley has often expressed his views on common descent. I don’t believe I have ever seen you contradict or challenge him. Have you?
Obviously, I have immense respect for VJ Torley. I usually agree with his comments. Recently, though, during what I believe was his successful refutation of Ed Feser on the question of context and design detection, I did, nevertheless, lean closer to Feser on one side issue, namely his point that nothing can be moved or changed except by something outside the thing being changed. I consider this point to be sacrosanct from a Thomistic point of view. Ultimately, nothing can change or move unless something on the outside causes it to happen. I will argue that point all day long--even if an anti-ID partisan like Feser holds it. Still, I am considering VJ's objection (perhaps exception would be a better word) to that view, which, again, is thoughtful. I have consulted two other Thomists that I respect to get their take on it. Things can get complicated.
Does Kreeft just not understand Aquinas
Again, I have tremendous respect for Peter Kreeft. I owe him a great deal. Still, I am not with him in all things. Yes, he accepts the possibility that macro-evolution could have occurred. I would love it if he could respond to niwrad's argument, but that is unlikely to happen. VJTorley didn't seem to have any significant criticism of it, and he was the first one to respond. Perhaps, he, like me, needs a little more time to process it. I also think Kreeft is a little to easy on Islam, but that is a story for another day. Also, keep in mind that, though he accepts Aquinas' design arguments, as well he should, Kreeft rejects (last time I checked) ID science, saying that he doesn't believe "design can be measured." In that context, I think he misunderstands ID. Inexplicable!StephenB
August 29, 2014
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Mung:
micro-evolution is that species of transformism which is acceptable given the position of Thomas Aquinas.
I don't follow you. I defined transformation as a change in form, which occurs in macro-evolution. It does not occur in micro-evolution. Beyond that, I can only tell you that prior to being exposed to niwrad's argument, I believed that Thomism could be reconciled with guided macro-evolution but not with unguided macro-evolution. His new approach has caused me to revisit that view. At this point, I am still processing it, but it seems legitimate to me. Perhaps you or ES will provide an objection that will change my mind back again. I am a sucker for a good argument.StephenB
August 29, 2014
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Why does niwrad honor you for defending his position if you’re not willing to defend his position?
That comment is toally without warrant. I suggested that you ask him for his own definition of "transformism" since you rejected my account of his definition, which is based on the words "trans" and "form."StephenB
August 29, 2014
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StephenB:
Do you really think that Aquinas used the word “transformism?”
Interesting question, one which I assume is rhetorical. I accuse you of an anachronism and your response is to accuse the creator of the OP of an anachronism? I only wish you had made the point sooner.
Do you really think that Aquinas used the word “transformism?” That is niwrad’s term to summarize Aquinas’ philosophy. So if you want a definition, it will have to come from the person who decided to use the term.
Why does niwrad honor you for defending his position if you're not willing to defend his position? It seems to be that you are defining your terms in a circular manner. micro-evolution is that species of transformism which is acceptable given the position of Thomas Aquinas. macro-evolution is that species of transformism which is not acceptable given the position of Thomas Aquinas. But the OP uses transformism to mean macro-evolution, so we'll leave that to niwrad to sort out. But YEC'ism is perfectly compatible with whatever, since we can't be bothered to define our terms in any meaningful way. Really? How many species are extant today? How many species disembarked from the ark? Are you aware of any YEC who believes that all extant species were directly created by God, approx 6000 years ago? Or do they believe that extant species evolved? Do we need to discuss specific examples?
Rodents are mammals of the order Rodentia, characterized by a single pair of continuously-growing incisors in each of the upper and lower jaws. The name is derived from the Latin r?dere, to gnaw. About forty percent of all mammal species are rodents, and they are found in vast numbers on all continents except Antarctica. They are the most diversified mammalian clade and can be found in a variety of terrestrial habitats including human-made environments. There are species that are arboreal, fossorial, and even semi-aquatic. Well known rodents include mice, rats, squirrels, prairie dogs, porcupines, beavers, guinea pigs, and hamsters, but rabbits, hares and pikas are now considered to be in a separate order, Lagomorpha.
All the same kind? All the result of micro-evolution? All the same FORM with the same BODY and the same SOUL?Mung
August 29, 2014
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niwrad, I think you're abusing Aquinas. Surprise! But what do I know. StephenB, vjtorley has often expressed his views on common descent. I don't believe I have ever seen you contradict or challenge him. Have you? So, can we make any sense out of what the argument is and what it does or does not prove? From the OP:
Note that the above quote especially applies to the negation of the arise of man from a non-human being (anthropoid). But in general denies the material macroevolution of any living being, because no being is inanimate ...
Does it really? "The saying that man and animals have a like beginning in generation is true of the body." Q 75, Art 6, Obj 3 fn 4 from Kreeft's A Shorter Summa (p 101):
Bodies could have evolved, but not souls.
Does Kreeft just not understand Aquinas?Mung
August 29, 2014
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niwrad @#49 -- thanks for your kind words. :-) That was a very good explanation regarding the absolute metaphysical sense of order vs the lower-level view from science. I did catch a mistake ... E.Seigner quoted an ID definition:
The section ID Defined on this site says this: “The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.”
I incorrectly said that ID doesn't say that natural selection is unguided. What I meant was, "unguided in an absolute, metaphysical sense". It is considered unguided in the biological sense.Silver Asiatic
August 29, 2014
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E. Seigner
My point is that it’s (design detection) an incoherent concept and an impossible enterprise.
You come home, enter your living room, and find that your boxes, papers, and clothes are scattered all over the floor. Some of the furniture has been toppled. Lately, your neighborhood has been experiencing storms with damaging winds. Criminals have also been roaming the area. Was this chaos the result of intelligent activity by a burglar or by the natural activity of a tornado? Oh, there is one more piece of information: The dresser drawers are open and the jewelry is gone. Can you draw an inference about which kind of cause was at work?StephenB
August 29, 2014
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E.Seigner:
The attempt to distinguish between designed and undesigned things is inherently untenable and Aquinas makes no such attempt.
Intelligent Design does not attempt to distinguish between designed and undesigned things. If you think it does then you are mistaken and need to adjust your thinking.Mung
August 29, 2014
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E.Seigner You are a compendium of near all the anti-ID arguments and Silver Asiatic is doing an excellent job in replying to you. Your debate is polite and interesting. I am proud to host it in the thread I started. I don't want to interfere (and certainly I wouldn't be smart like Silver Asiatic), however I would add only a bit. A same object can be seen from quite different viewpoints. When Aquinas says that in the cosmos all is order, his viewpoint in that moment, is an absolute pure metaphysical one. In fact, from such highest viewpoint all things are finally recomposed and integrated in the metaphysical total Perfection. The ID viewpoint when it examines the same objects is quite different and lower. For ID there are differences after all between a scrap and the Space Shuttle, and by analyzing these differences, argues that an intelligent cause has something more to do with the latter. Aquinas sure was able to consider both the two viewpoints, and to distinguish them carefully. A wise dictum of Scholasticim was indeed "distingue frequenter".niwrad
August 29, 2014
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E.Seigner Thanks again for your willingness to discuss this. I appreciate the opportunity to learn your views.
SA: How would you infer man-made design vs God-made design? For example, a house burned down. Was it caused by arson, or did God cause it? If you cannot use scientific evidence to infer design, what do you do? ES: This question is entirely nonsensical. Not only because it displays the category error that makes ID theory fundamentally problematic for me, but also because you present the question to me, while it’s exactly your job to show that “scientific evidence to infer design” is a coherent concept and a meaningful entreprise. My point is that it’s an incoherent concept and an impossible entreprise.
Ok, you haven't explained why it is impossible to determine, scientifically, that a fire was created by man-made design or by random cause (God-made design). But it's important to me to know that you think this would be pseudo-science, or a category error or non-coherent. For you, there is no way, scientifically to evaluate evidence and determine an event was designed.
For Aquinas (and for me too, incidentally), natural selection is very much a guided process, as much as any possible intelligently designed process would be.
That does explain your position. I don't know how you determine the difference between a guided and unguided process though.
Even for atheists natural selection is an essentially guided process in the sense that it’s deterministic, law-like.
Yes, natural selection has some law-like features, but it is not a sufficient explanation for the development of life on earth.
ID theorists make a more fundamental error and mistakenly believe that natural selection is unguided and there’s supposedly some other process that can be shown to be guided and called “intelligent” as distinguished from unguided natural processes.
Again, ID doesn't state that natural selection is unguided, only that natural selection cannot explain the development of things which have the appearance of having been designed. For example, was the image on the Shroud of Turin was not created by a known natural process. It was not created by natural selection. We use science to determine that. There is no man-made process yet known to account for the image. But it does look like it was designed. Markings on other burial cloths do not look designed. Science evaluates these kinds of things. In fact, some European scientists recently declared that the image on the Shroud was not produced by known natural processes.
That is, where *you* see chance as total disorder, Aquinas sees time as the ordering element, hence there’s the ordering element everywhere.
I didn't say total disorder. If you read again, we know what order is because we know what disorder is. We know what design is because we know what chance is. We can scientifically determine the difference between the two. We can see aspects of the universe that conform to mathematical structures -- thus order. Other aspects do not -- thus randomness. But that does not mean total chaos or complete disorder.
Inasmuch as time is everywhere in the universe, there’s no absolute disorder at any point. In Aquinas’ metaphysics, from the relative point of view there’s always some order or another, and from the absolute point of view there’s absolute order.
That's a good explantion - yes, I agree. But we do also see the difference between chance and order -- thus between randomness and design.
But science doesn’t study chaos. Science aims to determine natural order, scientific laws or laws of nature, i.e. consistent design-like features. Therefore for science there is no “scientific evidence for having been designed”, much less “having been designed with intelligence”.
When we don't know why something happens, science may conclude it is a random, accidental, chance event. But with study, some law may be discovered. So, we see the difference between chance and law. We can do the same between chance and intelligent design. You can read my symbols and language because I designed this text. I can also produce text by chance that you cannot read.
The thing you call design is indistinguishable from order or laws of nature. Dawkins even has a book The Blind Watchmaker, hasn’t he? He absolutely admits that there’s design in nature throughout. He just doesn’t admit the designer.
Yes, he admits that things look designed. But he says that they're not designed -- they are created by a blind watchmaker, evolution. Can a blind, purposeless process create the complex functional organisms in nature? Dawkins says, yes. Blind, physical laws caused human beings to evolve from ape-like ancestors in that view.
The designer is undetectable by design, just like you won’t find the watchmaker in any watch. To assume that you can find the watchmaker in the watch is a metaphysical category error.
Yes, you're right, but ID says nothing about finding the designer. It only sees evidence of design. We know what intelligence can produce and we know what random chaos produces. We also know what physical laws like gravity produce. We see what natural selection can produce. We can determine the difference between those things.Silver Asiatic
August 29, 2014
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How would you infer man-made design vs God-made design? For example, a house burned down. Was it caused by arson, or did God cause it? If you cannot use scientific evidence to infer design, what do you do?
This question is entirely nonsensical. Not only because it displays the category error that makes ID theory fundamentally problematic for me, but also because you present the question to me, while it's exactly your job to show that "scientific evidence to infer design" is a coherent concept and a meaningful entreprise. My point is that it's an incoherent concept and an impossible entreprise.
What do you think ID’s definition of intellect is?
The section ID Defined on this site says this: "The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection." Looks like natural selection is said to be undirected process here. This is a very profound error and no amount of details around the definitions of "intelligent" and "design" can hide it. For Aquinas (and for me too, incidentally), natural selection is very much a guided process, as much as any possible intelligently designed process would be. Even for atheists natural selection is an essentially guided process in the sense that it's deterministic, law-like. Atheists may make the error of assuming no guider or law-giver behind the process, but this doesn't change the law-like nature of the process for them. ID theorists make a more fundamental error and mistakenly believe that natural selection is unguided and there's supposedly some other process that can be shown to be guided and called "intelligent" as distinguished from unguided natural processes. Atheists don't go that far in their own error. For atheists, the process is unguided only nominally, while for all practical purposes it's guided, it's perfectly deterministic and orderly.
Notice, Aquinas states: “In all such things we find chance: not that everything is casual which occurs in such things; but that in each one there is an element of chance.” Interesting, unless things were governed, nothing would happen unintentionally. The fact that we can see the difference between chance and intention enables us to recognize design. God made it that way.
I also notice how Aquinas states in the end of your quote: "...he does not say absolutely that he observes chance in all things, but “time and chance,” that is to say, that defects may be found in these things according to some order of time." That is, where *you* see chance as total disorder, Aquinas sees time as the ordering element, hence there's the ordering element everywhere. Inasmuch as time is everywhere in the universe, there's no absolute disorder at any point. In Aquinas' metaphysics, from the relative point of view there's always some order or another, and from the absolute point of view there's absolute order.
ID states that some things show scientific evidence of having been designed with intelligence.
This is incoherent because there's nothing designed without intelligence. If it's designed, it should go without saying that it's designed with intelligence. Otherwise it would be undesigned, chaotic, formless, purposeless. But science doesn't study chaos. Science aims to determine natural order, scientific laws or laws of nature, i.e. consistent design-like features. Therefore for science there is no "scientific evidence for having been designed", much less "having been designed with intelligence". Science presupposes order - with or without intelligence - and studies the order, consistent and persistent properties, laws of nature. The thing you call design is indistinguishable from order or laws of nature. Dawkins even has a book The Blind Watchmaker, hasn't he? He absolutely admits that there's design in nature throughout. He just doesn't admit the designer. The designer is undetectable by design, just like you won't find the watchmaker in any watch. To assume that you can find the watchmaker in the watch is a metaphysical category error.E.Seigner
August 29, 2014
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E.Seigner Interesting comments, thanks. I appreciate your insights.
ID is a project to detect intelligent design, whereas Aquinas sees design throughout. Some design is man-made, but everything else in the world, animate and inanimate, including man’s intellect, is God-made.
You cite two kinds of design: Man made design, and God made design. You've stated earlier (#42):
I dismiss any and all possibility of inferring design from evidence
How would you infer man-made design vs God-made design? For example, a house burned down. Was it caused by arson, or did God cause it? If you cannot use scientific evidence to infer design, what do you do?
This is irreconcilable with ID’s definition of intellect,
What do you think ID's definition of intellect is?
ID’s definition of design,
As above, what do you think that definition is?
and ID’s definition of intelligent design,
And one more time, if you would. Thanks.
Aquinas is consistent and does not make the category error. He says straightforwardly that there is unfailing order “always or nearly always” in the universe and whenever there is order, it’s a case of “providence”.
When we see order, we see design, yes. When we say "nearly always", what does that mean to you? Sometimes (nearly always) there is order, and sometimes not. How do you distinguish that? When we see order, we have evidence of design, but we don't always see order -- only "nearly always".
Therefore natural things are indistinguishable from intelligently designed things, but isn’t this distinction the whole basis of ID?
No, it's not a distinction between natural and design. It's a distinction between "that which shows evidence of having been designed with intelligence" and "that which appears as the product or chance or natural-law". So, we see a stone shaped in the image of a famous man. We know that chance or natural law cannot produce that, thus we conclude that the face was intentionally designed and not the product of chance. Aquinas explains ID and this distinction later in the same article. While we know that God designed everything, God also wanted to show the beauty of order. But, you can't see the beauty of order unless you know what disorder is. So, God shows us things that look like chance or disorder. That way, we know what design looks like. If everything is design, then the word design is meaningless. We can see what chance produces. A pile of rocks after an avalance, patterns of raindrops on the ground. Gravity, physical matter and chance. Here's how Aquinas explains the ID inference in the same Question, Article 3:
Objection 1: It would seem that not all things are subject to the Divine government. For it is written (Eccles. 9:11): "I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the learned, nor favor to the skillful, but time and chance in all." But things subject to the Divine government are not ruled by chance. Therefore those things which are under the sun are not subject to the Divine government. Reply to Objection 1: These things are said to be under the sun which are generated and corrupted according to the sun's movement. In all such things we find chance: not that everything is casual which occurs in such things; but that in each one there is an element of chance. And the very fact that an element of chance is found in those things proves that they are subject to government of some kind. For unless corruptible things were governed by a higher being, they would tend to nothing definite, especially those which possess no kind of knowledge. So nothing would happen unintentionally; which constitutes the nature of chance. Wherefore to show how things happen by chance and yet according to the ordering of a higher cause, he does not say absolutely that he observes chance in all things, but "time and chance," that is to say, that defects may be found in these things according to some order of time.
Notice, Aquinas states: "In all such things we find chance: not that everything is casual which occurs in such things; but that in each one there is an element of chance." Interesting, unless things were governed, nothing would happen unintentionally. The fact that we can see the difference between chance and intention enables us to recognize design. God made it that way. You would not recognize the remarkable existence of the human eye, for example, without recognizing what chance produces. Evolution is a random process. We see what it produces. A physical-chemical reaction like the Big Bang produces chance results, but we see order instead. That's the ID argument. It's based on evidence we observe scientifically. We see order, we eliminate chance or natural law as the secondary cause of it, so we infer design. Yes, the first cause of everything is God, but science is looking at secondary causes.
The attempt to distinguish between designed and undesigned things is inherently untenable and Aquinas makes no such attempt.
Yes, that would be a problem, but ID does what Aquinas does. Notice, Aquinas doesn't say that chance events are undesigned. He only says that we observe design in order. That's what ID does. ID states that some things show scientific evidence of having been designed with intelligence. Other things do not give that evidence - but it does not mean they were "undesigned". It's just they appear to be products of randomness or known laws. We distinguish between design and what natural laws produce, as with forensics. We can't conclude that something is "undesigned" but only that it shows evidence of having been caused by chance or natural laws.Silver Asiatic
August 29, 2014
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Conclusion: If Aquinas was alive today, he probably would lose his job at a Catholic university (or never get the job) for being an ID advocate.
I draw a totally different conclusion. ID is a project to detect intelligent design, whereas Aquinas sees design throughout. Some design is man-made, but everything else in the world, animate and inanimate, including man's intellect, is God-made. This is irreconcilable with ID's definition of intellect, ID's definition of design, and ID's definition of intelligent design, which are just a fundamental category error. Aquinas is consistent and does not make the category error. He says straightforwardly that there is unfailing order "always or nearly always" in the universe and whenever there is order, it's a case of "providence". Reply to objection 1 that you quoted is particularly unconditional saying that everything moves towards an end and is therefore guided by knowledge, including natural things. Therefore natural things are indistinguishable from intelligently designed things, but isn't this distinction the whole basis of ID? The attempt to distinguish between designed and undesigned things is inherently untenable and Aquinas makes no such attempt.E.Seigner
August 29, 2014
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Quoting below from Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q. 103, adding emphasis:
Whether the world is governed by anyone? I answer that, Certain ancient philosophers denied the government of the world, saying that all things happened by chance. But such an opinion can be refuted as impossible in two ways. First, by observation of things themselves: for we observe that in nature things happen always or nearly always for the best; which would not be the case unless some sort of providence directed nature towards good as an end; which is to govern. Wherefore the unfailing order we observe in things is a sign of their being governed; for instance, if we enter a well-ordered house we gather therefrom the intention of him that put it in order, as Tullius says (De Nat. Deorum ii), quoting Aristotle [*Cleanthes]. Secondly, this is clear from a consideration of Divine goodness, which, as we have said above (Question [44], Article [4]; Question [65], Article [2]), was the cause of the production of things in existence. For as "it belongs to the best to produce the best," it is not fitting that the supreme goodness of God should produce things without giving them their perfection. Now a thing's ultimate perfection consists in the attainment of its end. Therefore it belongs to the Divine goodness, as it brought things into existence, so to lead them to their end: and this is to govern. Reply to Objection 1: A thing moves or operates for an end in two ways. First, in moving itself to the end, as man and other rational creatures; and such things have knowledge of their end, and of the means to the end. Secondly, a thing is said to move or operate for an end, as though moved or directed by another thereto, as an arrow directed to the target by the archer, who knows the end unknown to the arrow. Wherefore, as the movement of the arrow towards a definite end shows clearly that it is directed by someone with knowledge, so the unvarying course of natural things which are without knowledge, shows clearly that the world is governed by some reason.
Summarizing: There are some who claim the world was created by chance and there is no evidence of Intelligent Design. However, through scientific research we observe evidence in nature of order (complex specified functions) and therefore can infer not chance, but intelligence governs these things. Science observes this, just as if we saw a well-ordered room, we would infer a designer that ordered the room. When we see irreducible functions occurring for definite ends (circulation system, immune responses, procreation), it is like when we see an arrow directed at a target. We infer that an archer sent the arrow to the target. Conclusion: If Aquinas was alive today, he probably would lose his job at a Catholic university (or never get the job) for being an ID advocate. :-)Silver Asiatic
August 29, 2014
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