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Tourbillon

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William Paley published Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature in 1802. In 1801, Abraham Louis Breguet, called the “watchmaker of kings and the king of watchmakers,” patented a watch mechanism called the Tourbillon, which is French for “whirlwind,” revolutionizing watchmaking. The tourbillon has approximately 100 parts, and weighs only 0.296 grams.

Among the many Breguet clients have been folks such as Marie Antoinette, Napoleon Bonaparte, Sir Winston Churchill, and George Washington.    

William Paley considered the conclusion of Design appropriate if one had stumbled upon a watch in the woods and wondered of its origin:

In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there…Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.

And of course he was right. Microbiology has confirmed that the cell is much, much more complicated than even the tourbillon, and on a much smaller, nano-technological scale. A modern formulation of the argument, given what we know of microbiology and the complexity of the cell, could be:

But suppose I had found a cell upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the cell happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the cell might have always been there.

Paley also claimed that something might come to be known about the intentionality of the Watchmaker by his design:

. .when we come to inspect the watch, we perceive. . . that its several parts are framed and put together for a purpose, e.g. that they are so formed and adjusted as to produce motion, and that motion so regulated as to point out the hour of the day; that if the different parts had been differently shaped from what they are, or placed after any other manner or in any other order than that in which they are placed, either no motion at all would have been carried on in the machine, or none which would have answered the use that is now served by it. . . . the inference we think is inevitable, that the watch must have had a maker — that there must have existed, at some time and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers who formed it for the purpose which we find it actually to answer, who comprehended its construction and designed its use.

The watchmaker theme is also put forward by Richard Dawkins with his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker. The concept of a “blind watchmaker” is intended to illustrate how complexity is brought about from a step-wise evolutionary process that didn’t have the complexity as a goal.  Those familiar with the complexity of watches will not believe that they can be brought about blindly, as, hopefully, this video illustrates. This watch has a tourbillon escapement. Who would like to venture the inference that this watch was constructed blindly?

Comments
Seriously? http://livinglove.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/appendix4-pg2.pdf http://livinglove.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/appendix4-pg3.pdfPaulN
June 16, 2009
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JERRY: To get some feel for this, go to Robert Hazen’s page on complexity. Hazen is a leading researcher in the search for the origin of life. Yes he is, and he also acknowledges the phenomenon known as emergent complexity. If you've read hazen, you should be familiar with it. As for Abel's work, it is entirely devoid of originial data and is littered with bafflegab. Hazen's outclasses Abel's work by orders of magnitude.derwood
June 16, 2009
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PaulN: Also you’ll find a comprehensive review of the book made by the most recent reviewer in the amazon link above, at least you’ll have a better idea of his research if you care to bother. I preferred this review. The rest seem more like the usual Amazon back-pat/cheerleading/hero-worship fests that go on there.derwood
June 16, 2009
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PaulN: You should familiarize yourself with this man and his book and furthermore the discussions here and here. Once you’ve thoroughly evaluated the rigors of his research Have YOU "thoroughly evaluated the rigors of his research", or do you just assume that anything he writes is gold? then you might be in a position to write his ideas off with such an off-handed assertion. What is to say that that man and his work has NOT been rigorously evaluated? I'm not sure that that man's rigorous research has to do with anything. I guess I am just not that impressed with the elevation of the latest YEC with a degree and a book to Hero status. Sorry. I've read reviews of his book written by scientists I trust and it appears to be the usual litany of YEC claptrap. I found it especially amusing that the program he took part in producing will produce extinction even in a population in which the beneficial mutation parameter is set to 90%. But it is totally biologically realistic... This goes for you as well derwood @58, perhaps then you’ll learn that his studies are in fact complimentary consistent with Behe’s. His "studies"? Is that YEC-speak for literature bluffing? The notion that beneficial mutations don’t occur is a strawman, as Dr. Sanford himself acknowledges. Then one has to wonder why you wrote "According to Dr. John C. Sanford, it’s not a creative engine for much at all, other than accumulating errors until they are finally expressed in the form of tragic phenotype catastrophes." So, does the latest hero simply ignore the work of Rice and Chippindale, for example? Looking at Sanford's CV, I see precious little relevant to evolutionary genetics. I also note that on the MA site, ReMine is referred to as having expertise in genetics. So please forgive me if I am not impressed by unwarranted accolades and embellished relevance. I’m glad I’m beginning to forget what it’s like to be in your position of arrogance. It is probably difficult to forget something that is actually happening in real time.derwood
June 16, 2009
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I'm just throwing this in here because it relates somewhat to this discussion: in this month's edition of Reader's Digest magazine, a group of elementary school students in New York are studying evolution by examining cell phones. Yes, cell phones. They examine older and more current models to see how they have adapted. This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Cell phone are not the result of random mutations and natural selection; they are obviously intelligently designed by humans for humans. And they say *we* don't understand evolution?Barb
June 16, 2009
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Orasmus, Your litany of 'thresholds' is a non-sequitur. Asking to "see the Designer" (which I did not do) is not the logical equivalent of the list your concocted. Asking to "see the designer" would be more analogous to asking to "see the mechanisms" of evolution, e.g., RM&NS. You posited a series of specific events. If I were to produce an analogy to that, I could list the exact same things you did, since we all knnow that ID is not about magic or poofery or any designer 'willing it thus'.derwood
June 16, 2009
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"So the earth does not have complexity that leads to function? Plate tetonics? Vulcanism? Naturally occoruing fission reactors?? The magnetosphere?" You forgot rock slides, glacial action, erosion, planetary motion etc. What functions do these naturally occurring events have? What end are they serving? They are mostly just molecules in motion operating under the basic laws of the physical universe. By the way Rare Earth and the Privileged Planet argue that the concentration of these natural phenomena is unique or very close to unique and in the end do have a function.jerry
June 16, 2009
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Oh, and to give you a more straightforward answer: No, I don't think there's anything wrong with scientific pursuits that seek to verify the validity of the Bible.PaulN
June 16, 2009
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Echidna,
Does the fact that a “science” book talking about the genome attempts to substantiate the Bible not cause you to think that perhaps something is badly wrong?
Again, the primary purpose of the book is not to substantiate the Bible, but to document an empirical observation about the realistic limitations of mutation and selection. He points out that these observations line up with biblical accounts after the fact, which is still ultimately tangential to the focus of his line of research.
And in any case, as I’ve clearly noted, he uses the lifespans of people in the Bible to back up his claims about genome degeneration. And that is clearly using scriptural references to back up his science. End of.
He uses his theory on genetic entropy to explain the lifespan of the people in the Bible, he doesn't use the Bible to explain their lifespan. He is simply highlighting a correlation, HEAVEN FORBID!! Your willingness to completely dismiss a thoroughly documented empirical observation that simply mentions or correlates to the Bible is completely irrational.PaulN
June 16, 2009
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Echidna.Levy
I’m not interested in entering into a conversation when the terms that are used have been created soley for the purpose of proving a point and are not in use generally outside of this site, and your own.
If you had to explain scientifically why Egypt's pyramids are not natural occurrences to someone who was convinced otherwise, you would likely have to reduce some of your key concepts to new terms. If the terms are not common, it's because usually no one needs to explain such things.ScottAndrews
June 16, 2009
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PaulN
Also, you had it backward regarding his last chapter. He was more using scientific evidence including his observations regarding genetic entropy to substantiate the Bible, not the other way around.
Does the fact that a "science" book talking about the genome attempts to substantiate the Bible not cause you to think that perhaps something is badly wrong? And in any case, as I've clearly noted, he uses the lifespans of people in the Bible to back up his claims about genome degeneration. And that is clearly using scriptural references to back up his science. End of.Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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PaulN First you said:
Tell me where in any of the sources I’ve provided, or in Sanford’s book itself where you’ll find scriptural references to back up his science.Tell me where in any of the sources I’ve provided, or in Sanford’s book itself where you’ll find scriptural references to back up his science.
Now you say:
You did not meet any criteria for how he uses scripture to back up his claims for genetic entropy, which was my main point.
..
Funny how you dodge facing the actual primary scientific proposals of the book, and undermine the focus of his research with something completely tangential.
If it's so tangential why does it take up a significant proportion (an entire chapter!) of his book? If he's not using scriptural references to back up his science then what exactly is chapter 10 about? Sanford uses scriptural references to back up his science and that's a plain fact. Deny it till you are blue in the face, a plain reading of that chapter clearly shows that as fact.Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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Also, you had it backward regarding his last chapter. He was more using scientific evidence including his observations regarding genetic entropy to substantiate the Bible, not the other way around.PaulN
June 16, 2009
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kairosfocus,
I think jerry and kairosfocus have done an excellent job of pointing you in the direction of scholarly material on the Web which answers your skeptical question about the definition of complexity.
Jerry gave several definitions in this thread. Which one are you taking about when you use the world "complex"?
Science is not decided by any official or group of officials.
Quite right. It's decided on the basis of evidence. What are you yourself doing to promote your evidence in the only place that other scientists will take note of it? I.E. Peer reviewed journals? If you want to change how things are then there is only one course of action - convince people via indisputable evidence!
Of course, there are millions of cases in point of FSCI.
I'm afraid I can only find references to FSCI (Functional Complex Specified Information) on this and your own site. As such it seems that you are tying to piggyback on the work of the real scientists you mention. I'm not interested in entering into a conversation when the terms that are used have been created soley for the purpose of proving a point and are not in use generally outside of this site, and your own.Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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How fitting for you to choose the one chapter at the end of the book where he elaborates on his beliefs according to biblical historicity. Now tell me what this has to do with the first 9 chapters that actually compile the scientific arguments for genetic entropy. Funny how you dodge facing the actual primary scientific proposals of the book, and undermine the focus of his research with something completely tangential. You did not meet any criteria for how he uses scripture to back up his claims for genetic entropy, which was my main point. I happen to agree with his assessment on Noah and his descendants, but again that is a completely tangential factor in judging the validity of his research on genetic entropy. Try again. You've already made it obvious that you're desperate to win an argument by any means, unfortunately to the point where the attempts become self-defeating. You only prove my point by dodging the key subjects and core components of our discourse, leaving you with ultimately shallow retorts, which end up harmin your own credibility.PaulN
June 16, 2009
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Jerry
Things like clouds, thunder storms, the center of the earth and rocks may have complexity but do not lead to function. They have consequences but not functional ones.
So the earth does not have complexity that leads to function? Plate tetonics? Vulcanism? Naturally occoruing fission reactors?? The magnetosphere? The list could go on... Indeed, it's plain to all the earth is simply plain rock and does nothing at all. So therefore the "bits" of CSI in the earth <500? Is that your contention Jerry? It seems to me rather that the earth is a "factory" producing many things. Will you now claim that this "factory" is in fact intelligently designed when a moment ago you say "the center of the earth and rocks may have complexity but do not lead to function"?Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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vjtorley
It turns out that rocky planets were not even possible in the universe until several generations of stars had created the necessary heavy elements
So, to be clear, you believe that your god was not capable of working around that issue? So you don't believe your deity is omnipotent? Interesting.... Why would your god act according to the rules of physics one day (waiting until heavy elements were available) and then break them the next by directly creating life?Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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PaulN
Tell me where in any of the sources I’ve provided, or in Sanford’s book itself where you’ll find scriptural references to back up his science.
Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome. Chapter 10. Sanford talks about the declining life-spans of the generations of men after Noah. He talks about the life-spans of post-flood man, as recorded in the Bible. Sanford then speaks about the 5 books of Moses and the life-span informataion he derives from that. I could go on. But I think you'll find that meets your criteria of Sanford using scriptural references to back up his "science".
I’m done arguing with you.
That's fine, because as far as I can tell we never argued anyway.Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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Echidna.Levy I think jerry and kairosfocus have done an excellent job of pointing you in the direction of scholarly material on the Web which answers your skeptical question about the definition of complexity. I won't attempt to add to what they've said on that topic. Instead I'll address your other questions. Regarding the appearance of life on Earth, some time after its formation 4.54 billion years ago, you ask:
How long would it have to be before you were convinced that it was not the product of an intelligent plan?
My answer is that I'd expect to see life emerge on Earth as soon as the Earth became capable of supporting life. A supernatural Creator would have had no particular reason to wait until after that date to create life. According to the article, New Glimpses of Life’s Puzzling Origins, in The New York Times (June 16, 2009), that was about 150 million years after the Earth formed:
Recent evidence from very ancient rocks known as zircons suggests that stable oceans and continental crust had emerged as long as 4.404 billion years ago, a mere 150 million years after the Earth’s formation.
It was formerly believed that the Late Heavy Bombardment, the rain of gigantic comets and asteroids that pelted the Earth and Moon around 3.9 billion years ago, would have killed any nascent life on Earth, but Stephen Mojzsis, a geologist at the University of Colorado, has argued otherwise in an article in Nature. If it could be shown that life on Earth emerged later than 3.8 billion years ago, I'd count that as good (but not conclusive) evidence that it was not designed. You also wrote:
The earth is much younger then the universe. Why did your “designer” wait such a very long time before creating the earth?
That's easy. According to http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_the_universe.html :
Why would God create the universe over 13 billion years ago and wait all that time before creating human beings? It turns out that rocky planets were not even possible in the universe until several generations of stars had created the necessary heavy elements. Other important factors that require an old universe and old earth include the amount of radioactive materials in the universe, the age of the Sun and the stability of its nuclear fusion cycle, the amount of land mass and oxygen on the earth, and the optimal viewing time and location to observe the universe.
vjtorley
June 16, 2009
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Echidna As a working definition of functionally specific complex information, try out: information requiring at least 500 - 1,000 bits of capacity, fulfilling a code-bearing algorithmic and/or linguistic specific function. There are of course more complex definitions out there, but this will do for a 101 level discussion. (You may want to look at the weak argument correctives in the right hand column.) The complexity aspect comes from the scope of the configuration space indicated by the bit depth, and from the resistance to compression imposed by the requirement of code-bearing functionality. (That is, we have here organisation, not mere order, which can be simply and briefly described: e.g. "repeat 'XYZ' 50 times.") Functionality, of course implies that there is a specification, and that is in a context of doing some real work of communication and/or processing. Of course, there are millions of cases in point of FSCI. In EVERY case where we know the origin directly, it is intelligent, not a spontaneous product of chance and necessity. That should not be surprising as 1,000 bits specifies a search space of 10^301 states, i.e over ten times the square of the 10^150 or so quantum states states that the 10^80 or so atoms of the cosmos we observe can have had across its lifetime. So, once specific funcitonality confines teh number of useful states to a target zone of reasonable size -- e.g. think about how easy it is to corrupt a program by randomising its bits -- then, Chance + necessity are maximally unlikely to get to shores of first function in the lifespan of our cosmos. So, we do not even get to the point that Dawkins et al love to start from: climbing Mt Improbable through cumulative selection. For, you have to get to function first before you can have differential functional performance. And in case you are still labouring under the impression that he concept is not a scientifically legitimate one, why not cf remarks by Orgel et al as they tried to understand how life at cell level differs from crystals and random tars, e.g. this:
Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.6 [Source: L.E. Orgel, 1973. The Origins of Life. New York: John Wiley, p. 189.]
(Of course, you may have swallowed the modern attempt to redefine science as applied materialism; which has no good historical or philosophical warrant whatever Mr Lewontin or his colleagues in the US NAS have to say. Science is not decided by any official or group of officials.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 16, 2009
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Khan:
IDers claim to have already discovered signals analogous to what SETI researchers are looking for, but show no interest in finding out anything about the source of those signals.
How would one do that scientifically? You do realize that in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the ONLY possible way to make any scientific inference about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used is by studying the design in question. Everything we "know" about the alleged builders of Stonehenge (which isn't very much) came from studying the artifacts they left behind. Those artifacts are evidence for their existence.Joseph
June 16, 2009
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Echidna,
It’s not me that has written his ideas off. It’s the entire scientific community.
Only in your narrow world where the "scientific community" is limited to those who agree upon and are driven by naturalism, which in no real, logical way discredits what John C. Sanford has discovered. It's also worth noting that your scientific community by and large have actually left his ideas mostly uncontested.
And it’s obvious that Sanford already knows it, or he would have published this work in a venue where it might have had some impact - a peer reviewed journal for example.
SURE! Perhaps in an imaginary far off land where people actually judge ideas based on their merits instead of resorting to character assassination =). Or perhaps in a world where nerds will be first picks in dodgeball. Unfortunately both seem equally unlikely to happen in any world primarily influenced by a materialistic monopoly. The whole point of peer reviews is to have your ideas reviewed by, guess who? PEERS.
Then again, when you are making your case with the use of scripture it’s not surprising you won’t even attempt to get it published anywhere other then a book. No actual serious scientific journal would publish genome related work backed up by using scripture as evidence!
WHAT? Tell me where in any of the sources I've provided, or in Sanford's book itself where you'll find scriptural references to back up his science. I fear that the combination of your arrogance and willful ignorance preclude your ability to make valid statements. You radiate behavioral signals that favor the ID side more than anything. If anyone who wants to judge for themselves what Sanford has thoroughly researched, including his background, then they now have the resources to do so. I'm done arguing with you.PaulN
June 16, 2009
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ScottAndrews (91), "If you think that the term “complex” has no well-defined meaning in relation to ID then you haven’t actually read about what you’re disputing." Actually, I'm in the same boat as Echidna - the term "complex" has been kicking around the ID bazaars for years, but I've never been at all clear what its defined as. The problem is the boundary between complex and non-cimplex - where does it lie? Can you let me know?Gaz
June 16, 2009
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Echidna.Levy
The trouble is you have not defined “complex” with rigour. Do that and perhaps your argument will make sense.
You've given yourself away. If you think that the term "complex" has no well-defined meaning in relation to ID then you haven't actually read about what you're disputing.ScottAndrews
June 16, 2009
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RDK @62:
The complexity of life found today is much greater than the product of any intelligence we know of….therefore intelligence must have created it? Doesn’t follow.
Or we could conclude that more complex design is obvious evidence of random forces at work. We have a logical conclusion based on evidence that leads to an unknown factor - how very unscientific! And we have a conclusion that disregards the evidence and makes an astronomically improbably assumption based on nothing at all. I won't dismiss anything based on massive improbabilities if a) there's another explanation not defeated by improbability, or b) there's some logical reason to consider the possibility, or c) I'm fantasizing.ScottAndrews
June 16, 2009
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PaulN @ 16: "I think you actually have it backwards. Most subtle changes fly under the radar of natural selection, leaving significant survival-based changes to be selected for or against. Selection happens at the gene level, which can effect anything from subtle variations to significant body structures. My qualm is that seeing as most of these subtle variations that are supposed to drive evolution forward fly under the radar of selection, why don’t we see them add up until they eventually reach any grossly malformed end results in parts of the organism or the organism as a whole." Two reasons. First, even a mutation that is only mildly adverse will be selected out of the organism, it just takes longer. Second, by the time mildly adverse mutations build up enough to be noticed, they are then selected against. Selection isn't binary. Mutations that only mildly affect the organism are only mildly selected on.djmullen
June 16, 2009
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Joseph @ 13: "Nice bedtime story (about the rabbits). Do you have any scientific data to support it?" http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-11/975598428.Ev.r.html "Anatomically, lagomorphs [rabbits] are most similar to the order Artiodactyla, the even-toed ungulates like cows, pigs and deer. The earliest fossil lagomorphs occurred in Mongolia in the Paleocene period (which started 65 million years ago). The leporids (hares and rabbits) diverged from the other lagomorphs in the Oligocene period (37 million years ago). Around that time, there was a fossil rabbit called Palaeolagus that might be very similar to the common ancestor of hares and rabbits. Palaeolagus probably looked a lot like modern hares and rabbits (for a picture, see Savage and Long, 1986)." Now will you please show us a similar record of how The Designer created rabbits? Joseph @ 14 "Another exmple is the eye/ vision system. Even though we know much, much more than Darwin did about these systems the evidence for their “evolution” is the same- that is we observe varying degrees of complexity in existing systems and we “know” the original population(s) didn’t have one, therefor they all evolved!!" Ok, evolutionists can show you a long line of proto-eyes and many different kinds of eyes. These range from a spot in a cell that detects light to an eagle's eye. The complex eyes are not found in the early record or on simple animals. The eyes can be arranged to show that you can progress from the simplest light detecting spots to an eagle's eye in a series of short steps with no major jumps involved. Now what evidence does ID have that can match this?djmullen
June 16, 2009
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Echidna.Levy (#84) asked: "The earth is much younger then the universe. Why did your “designer” wait such a very long time before creating the earth?" This an even more poignant question, given that Guillermo Gonzalez and others have hypothesized that the very physical constants of the universe, for trillions of galaxies billions of light-years away in all directions, were fine-tuned for the convenience of life on earth.PaulBurnett
June 16, 2009
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PaulN @ 7: "The problem is that we haven’t observed anything to this extent in reality." The problem is that YOU haven't observed The Designer designing anything at all while we can show you Darwinian evolution in action. For example, teosinte to corn macro evolution. PaulN @ 8 & 9: I'm sorry to say this, but there are some things you can say that sound just fine to someone who knows nothing about evolution, but which are like wearing a sign saying, "I don't understand the evolution I'm criticizing," to someone who does. Complaining that the fruit fly experiments never made new types of fruit flies is one of them. The fruit fly experimenters weren't trying to make new fruit flies, they were trying to figure out how genes work and they did that very well. The reason you don't see failed experiments in evolution in the fossil records is because they failed - the changes didn't help survival or actively killed their bearers off. "Failed experiments" never pass their failure onto lots of children and those non-existant children consequently aren't fossilized.djmullen
June 16, 2009
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PaulN (80), "I would surely hope that the ID camp would not chop off that leg just to gain a step up in credibility with the opposition, as credibility shouldn’t take precedence over sound logic and reason of well researched ideas." An admirable sentiment, but there is absolutely no logic, reason or well-researched ideas in creationism whatsoever. But I'm willing to listen: what is the single best piece of logic, reason or research that gives an age fpor the Earth of 6000 years?Gaz
June 16, 2009
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