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Darwin’s peppered myth: Turns out, peppered moths take care to protect themselves

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A Darwin cult (the peppered myth) developed during the twentieth century around the peppered moths, with the recent “resounding triumph” that it turns out that pollution effects do favour dark coloured moths over light coloured ones in the same species, with no important changes.

Whoop whoop. That is all Darwinism can come up with, in real life, after all this time.

But so? Snowbelt effects explain why the Canadian Groundhog Day groundhog is white and the American one is brown. No evolution was ever harmed in the making of the diverting nonsense.

In “Peppered Moths Without Evolution” (July 31, 2012), Creation-Evolution Headlines comments , noting a recent, more detailed study,

Kettlewell and Majerus didn’t take into account the moths’ behavior. They treated moths as passive creatures that would alight on tree trunks at random. They placed the selective power in the environment, with lower contrast producing greater camouflage, leaving the high-contrast moths vulnerable to birds.

The South Korean researchers found, instead, that moth behavior plays a vital role in the camouflage. They “found out that moths are walking on the tree bark until they settle down for resting; the insects seem to actively search for a place and a body position that makes them practically invisible.” A video clip embedded in the article shows the moths doing this.

The article avoids superstitious homage to Darwin as well, apparently. That’s a start  in the right direction.

We always thought that the moth had more interest in protecting its hide than the researchers did, and guess what? But how do the moths know if, when they feel invisible, they really are invisible?

See also: US Darwinists (US ranked 14th) wail over South Korea (ranked 1st), supposedly “not able to compete”

Comments
Well, wd400, two years later we now know that you were wrong and I was right. Look at this link.PaV
November 21, 2016
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I am not throwing nt under the bus, just that it is the the null hypothesis , and sometimes the null hypothesis is correct , but when it isn't we look to other explanations, like selection. We test , we poke, we prod. There's no atheistic conspiracy we just want to understand.Starbuck
August 6, 2012
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See, this is the rubbish I'm talking about. Apart from all the noise, do you mind explaining why you think a "modification factor" that segregates in a simple Mendelian fashion isn't an allele? Or what the near-fixation of one allele has to do with Haldane's paper, which is about the cost fixation of multiple alleles (and based on shakey assumptions, which Haldane makes explicit if you actually read the paper). Seems a lot like the classic Gish Gallop to me...wd400
August 6, 2012
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Starbuck: What would normally take neutral evolution 30 million years selection can do in two. Does this work for all cases? No, but it’s a good starting point and when it works we learn a lot. I see you're ready to throw neutral drift under the bus. But, of course, neutral theory developed because of the concept of "genetic load" owing to the fact that directional selection, such as you assume to be taking place here with B. betularia, requires lots of individuals to die. The "surprising" (Why do we hear biologists use that word over and over again? Is it because they have everything wrong?) level of protein polymorphisms led Kimura to propose the NT. So, as usual, you're a Darwinist who will concede the inadequacies of one theory, only because he's convinced of the power of another one. But, unfortunately, neither one is powerful enough---in a mathematical way---of explaining viable genetic pathways leading from sea squirts to humans, (let alone from cats to dogs) nor a combination of both. We're incredibly huge orders of magnitude away from any sensible mathematical solution.PaV
August 6, 2012
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wd400: Who's talking a load of rubbish here? The peppered moth is THE ICON of evolution. And evolution is supposed to tell us how bacteria became humans. And now you're saying this: the peppered moth is "just .... a nice example of adaptation in a changing environment." I've been saying for years that if Darwin entitled his book The Origin of Adaptations, that I'd probably not find too much wrong with it. Who are you kidding with this line of defense? You can't have your cake,and eat it too. The reason I question the "classic" tale told of B. betularia is, first, because I suspect that neo-Darwinism can do even less than what it appears to be able to do. That's just a personal suspicion based on a whole host of considerations. Hence, it borders on intuition. And, second, related to the first, I think that the amount of true "randomness" in mutations is far less than we think. And, third, because it seems that the gene frequencies of the alleles---whatever that means, if anything (whole genome analysis will eventually tell us just what it means; but, in the case at point, there WASN'T a "carbonaria gene", an allele, but, rather, a modification factor, so how can we even talk about "changing gene/allele frequencies"?)---are changing so quickly, back and forth, traditional pop. gen. formulas don't favor such an explanation. This is why Ted Sargeant had reservations. And, this is exactly why Haldane published his paper that later came to be known as Haldane's Dilemma. (But, of course, there's never a dilemma that a good "ad hoc", Darwinian "just-so" story can't remedy.) But, wd400, you're right: all this is is a simple case of "adaptation." New body-types aren't going to emerge via these mechanism even if we had billion, trillion years available.PaV
August 6, 2012
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When evolutionary biologists use the null hypothesis to try to explain ancestor-descendant variations in genes, they look to examples such as the peppered moth for answers as to why neutral evolution fails. What would normally take neutral evolution 30 million years selection can do in two. Does this work for all cases? No, but it's a good starting point and when it works we learn a lot.Starbuck
August 6, 2012
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PaV, You really do talk a load of rubbish sometimes. No one has ever claimed that that the peppered moths explained "wholesale changes in body-types" - just that they form a nice example of adaptation in a changing environment. Creationist's apoplexy about the peppered moths, and the bizzare things you'll say to avoid the simple interpretation of the results, on the hand, seems to suggest they form some sort of problem for you guys?wd400
August 6, 2012
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Nick Matzke: Furthermore, recent studies in the last few years have narrowed down the region of the genome that controls melanism. As was mentioned, they also found classic genomic signatures of a selective sweep there (reduced diversity in that region). And this is exactly what you would expect if Majerus’s suggestion — that a point mutation swept through the population — is correct. It was correct of you to point out that the genes for melanism didn't change in the carbonaria morph. As the authors wrote: there is no 'carbonaria gene.' Was this what Darwinists expected? No. Why do I say that? Because they wrote that "surprisingly" none of the candidate genes turned out to be linked to the gene pathway associated with melanism. Yes, there appears to be a SNP. But, does this fit Majerus' model? Not really---and for the same reason given above. Now, it could be argued that this confirms neo-Darwinian premises. But are we sure? Ted Sargeant's reasons for invoking "induction" regarding B. betuleria is because the change occurred too rapidly. (He notes 47 years for the 'carbonaria' to develop, which, he writes, corresponds to a selection factor of .50, which is quite high as selection factors go.) At the time Sargeant questioned the "classical" theory regarding B. betularia, one of the denouncements of his theory was that it was Lamarkian. But we now know that this is a detectable phenomena in plants, and IIRC, even in animals, via RNA-mediated epigenetic mechanisms. And we also now know that not all mutations are random. IOW, are we dealing here with a case of a "directed mutation"? You can’t just sit around and make half-baked comments suggesting that some already-refuted explanation is more plausible and expect to be taken seriously. The questions raised above are scientific questions, not religious ones. Your question deserves to be turned around. The real question should be: why should science take Darwinism seriously. The mathematics make no sense at all. Behe's work, first his computer simulation and then his "Edge of Evolution" make this quite clear. If you want to convince ID folks about evolution, either show us all the "intermediate forms" that Darwin expected to find in the fossil record, or show us some mathematical way of explaining how new genetic information comes about. Or, better yet, both. The genetic evidence so far for the 'carbonaria' is of a controlling region SNP. And the authors suggest that it is but one, single mutation. How did all of the other information in the mutated sequence come about? How is this type of change in any way impressive? Why should we go from the occurence of SNPs in bringing about very simple adaptive change, to wholesale changes in body-types? On what basis is such an extrapolation to be carried out? Because otherwise we have to invoke intelligent agency? Is it materialism then that requires this extrapolation? Is that science? Why should logical people be required to 'believe' this stuff? Let's point out that Darwinists insisted that "junk-DNA" had no function and was a confirmation of their theory. ID said that didn't make much sense. Who turned out to be right? ID said that if an intelligent agent is involved in the operation of the genome, then "front-loading" is a distinct possibility, as well as being more likely---i.e., a non-gene-centric position. And now we know that sea squirts have genes that are used for limb formation, a fact that buttresses the notion of "front-loading" and which points to regulatory pathways as determinative, rather than simply genes. ( Darwinism is running out of time. Nothing about it makes much sense. When will all the ad hoc explanations finally stop? Hopefully soon.PaV
August 6, 2012
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There is no “carbonaria gene.” So state the authors. The gene pathway that leads to melanism is the same in the typicals and in the ‘carbonaria.’ What changes, apparently, is some kind of molecular ‘factor’.
It sounds like it's the regulation of the gene that's changed (which makes a lot of sense). It could be that it's still the same gene, if the mutation is in the regions that control expression. Or it could be at another locus, which interacts with the region that control expression. I think this could reasonably be called a gene too.A Gene
August 6, 2012
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For all you mutation skeptics, SNP = single nucleotide polymorphism = point mutation.
unfounded presupposition of 'randomness' again Nick??? Already referenced Shapiro earlier, but to add that line of criticism,, Though SNP's (random mutations) do get through to make some point mutations to DNA, the level of DNA repair that prevents them from happening is simply unfathomably complex: Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm A Look at the Quality Control System in the Protein Factory - JonathanM - March 2012 Excerpt: The DNA damage response (DDR) system is like a cellular special ops force. The moment such damage is detected, an intricate network of communication and recruitment launches into action. If the cellular process for making proteins were a factory, this would be the most advanced quality-control system ever designed. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/a_look_at_the_q057791.html Repair mechanisms in DNA include: A proofreading system that catches almost all errors A mismatch repair system to back up the proofreading system Photoreactivation (light repair) Removal of methyl or ethyl groups by O6 – methylguanine methyltransferase Base excision repair Nucleotide excision repair Double-strand DNA break repair Recombination repair Error-prone bypass http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html Although evolution depends on 'mutations/errors' to DNA to make evolution plausible, there are multiple layers of error correction in the cell to protect against any "random changes" to DNA from happening in the first place: The Evolutionary Dynamics of Digital and Nucleotide Codes: A Mutation Protection Perspective - February 2011 Excerpt: "Unbounded random change of nucleotide codes through the accumulation of irreparable, advantageous, code-expanding, inheritable mutations at the level of individual nucleotides, as proposed by evolutionary theory, requires the mutation protection at the level of the individual nucleotides and at the higher levels of the code to be switched off or at least to dysfunction. Dysfunctioning mutation protection, however, is the origin of cancer and hereditary diseases, which reduce the capacity to live and to reproduce. Our mutation protection perspective of the evolutionary dynamics of digital and nucleotide codes thus reveals the presence of a paradox in evolutionary theory between the necessity and the disadvantage of dysfunctioning mutation protection. This mutation protection paradox, which is closely related with the paradox between evolvability and mutational robustness, needs further investigation." http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2011/04/26/dna_repair_mechanisms_reveal_a_contradic Contradiction in evolutionary theory - video - (The contradiction between extensive DNA repair mechanisms and the necessity of 'random mutations/errors' for Darwinian evolution) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzh6Ct5cg1o The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems Excerpt: The bottom line is that repair mechanisms are incompatible with Darwinism in principle. Since sophisticated repair mechanisms do exist in the cell after all, then the thing to discard in the dilemma to avoid the contradiction necessarily is the Darwinist dogma. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-darwinism-contradiction-of-repair-systems/ Nick perhaps you want random unguided mutations to be true, but the fact is that mutations that happen to DNA are, as Shapiro has pointed out so eloquently, for the vast majority of times regulated, directed, changes to DNA that are governed. i.e. non-random with respect to true randomness! It is simply unwarranted for you to claim that this example is truly random, much less do you seem realize how trivial this example of cyclical variation is to the burden of proof for explain where moth wings and highly integrated DNA repair mechanisms came in the first place! etc.. etc.. etc...bornagain77
August 6, 2012
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And yet Majerus found that Moths preferred to stay in shaded areas.
Which I've already said in this thread. The point is that peppered moths apparently don't actively match backgrounds to their color, where dark moths rest on dark surfaces and light/peppered moths rest on light surfaces. Yet the DI/UD suggested that the peppered moth work was somehow impeached because some other random species from Korea have this behavior.
Now, the authors have a subsequent paper that has come out, and they seem to identify the SNP involved in this regulatory factor. Now, this might seem like straightforward “neo-Darwinian” evolution—trivial as it always is; however, can we just simply rule out some environmental factor leading, along its own pathway, to a “directed mutation”? I don’t think so.
They've identified the SNP? Where's the paper, I haven't seen it yet I think. PS: For all you mutation skeptics, SNP = single nucleotide polymorphism = point mutation.NickMatzke_UD
August 6, 2012
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wd400: You’re going to have to explain to me how a trait can be Mendelian dominant in breeding experiments and “epigenetically” controlled. Well, actually, I wouldn’t bother. Even if the was some weird epigenetic thing going on, the evidence for strong selection on a newly arising mutant would still stand. There is no "carbonaria gene." So state the authors. The gene pathway that leads to melanism is the same in the typicals and in the 'carbonaria.' What changes, apparently, is some kind of molecular 'factor'. That's why in the paper I cited they talk about a "control region." The gene pathway segregates as normal, but it is this control factor that effects the inherited pathway. Now, the authors have a subsequent paper that has come out, and they seem to identify the SNP involved in this regulatory factor. Now, this might seem like straightforward "neo-Darwinian" evolution---trivial as it always is; however, can we just simply rule out some environmental factor leading, along its own pathway, to a "directed mutation"? I don't think so. So, what we see is either completely non-neo-Darwinian in character, or, by default, it is a simple SNP, which, given a large population size can be arrived at fairly quickly. But, again, this is a trivial form of so-called "neo-Darwinian" evolution. There's no new "gene" that has shown up (again, there's no "carbonaria gene"); it's a simply SNP---which fits right in with Behe's conclusions about what so-called "neo-Darwinian" evolution can bring about. (obviously we're talking about, at most, one, SINGLE, protein-to-protein bond here).PaV
August 6, 2012
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Joe @78 - I don't think they looked at differential reproduction, because the suspected mechanism was differential survival. Which Kettlewell did look at. BTW, I assume you've given up trying to explain what you think is wrong with the O'Hara paper.A Gene
August 6, 2012
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And yes evos, TRAITS are genetic. Unfortunately, for you, "being a moth" is NOT a trait.Joe
August 5, 2012
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wd400- It is up to you and the author(s) to verify they measured natural selection- that is they measured the differential reproduction based on heritable random variation.Joe
August 5, 2012
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Maus, This is ridiculous. The trait acts as dominant in breeding experiments in which pollution or whatever environmental cue you want is taken out of the picture. Why dream up an epigenetic pattern for such a simple trait? Moreover, what difference would it make? If the dark-bodied allele is an epiallele that is inherited in such a strict Mendelian fashion, and has been subject to such strong selecton, then it makes no difference if it's a point mutation or an methyl tag that brought the allele into existence.wd400
August 5, 2012
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Matzke:
I.e., it’s genetic, like many other thousands of inherited traits in other species (e.g., flower color, eye color, hair color, etc.)
Eye color: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm "The two pictures show the eyes of two genetically identical flies. The difference in eye colour is determined by epigenetic factors." -- from the photo caption. Hair color: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2822875/ "The degree of methylation within the 5? IAP long terminal repeat (LTR) varies dramatically among individual isogenic Avy/a mice, causing a wide variation in coat color ranging from yellow (unmethylated) to pseudoagouti (methylated) (Fig. 1B)." -- text immediately preceeding Fig 1B. Flower color: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15493332 "The flower variegation patterns can be determined by the frequency and timing of the excision of these transposons, and their stable insertions produce plain color flowers without generating pigmented spots or sectors; furthermore, both genetic and epigenetic regulation appeared to play important roles in determining the frequency and timing of the excision of the transposons." Of particular note with the last: Epigenetic factors plays a role in the transposons directly rather than the 'pure, simple' persisted methylation alteration. And while all of these notions are Mendelian in nature it is also the case that epigenetics plays a demonstrable role. The Eye and Hair color issues allow you to see that amount of variation of alebdo due epigenetics. Which is, really, the entire point here. It's a safe presumption here that everything is some matter of genetics. But simply tipping your hat to the tautology does not demonstrate cause from correlation. And specifically, if we do not know the specific gene and mechanism at hand then we cannot rule out what sort of effects epigenetics may play. This is especially pertinent in the case I quoted about flower color. Strictly, you are speaking beyond what the evidence supports. Don't do this, it is the sort of 'intellectual bankruptcy' that the YEC/ID side engages in, no?
And this is exactly what you would expect if Majerus’s suggestion — that a point mutation swept through the population — is correct.
'Expect if' is a weasel word. It either is a valid demonstration or it is not. If you say it is then you have discarded Methodological Naturalism. There simply is no 'point mutation' specifically known and in evidence. It is a pure appeal to mythology and has no place in a discussion of the evidence. For bonus points: It is never the case that Reality is consistent with a theory. It is always the case that a Theory is consistent with, or refuted by, Reality. The distinction is crucial as the former allows soft-headed individuals to claim that 'Reality shows x about a theory...'. This is never the case no matter how softly the notion is pedalled.
You can’t just sit around and make half-baked comments suggesting that some already-refuted explanation is more plausible and expect to be taken seriously.
See: The above issues on epigenetics.
... even though it is *already tested and known* that peppered moths don’t have the actively-search-for-matching-background behavior which was the major point of the Korean study.
And yet Majerus found that Moths preferred to stay in shaded areas. So if you're stating that Majerus is incompetent and incapable of counting moths in light and shade, then I should sorely like to see a reference as to how he cocked it up and why.
(1) NS is real; (2) it occurs in the wild, sometimes at rates that humans can observe over a few years; (3) selection can spread mutations from miniscule frequencies (the first dark moth was only observed in the 1800s IIRC) to very high frequencies (it was 99% in highly polluted regions); (4) the result of this process is a specific functional adaptation to the environment, i.e. camouflage, which “looks designed”.
(1) It shows predation is real. But if NS is synonymous with predation then let us call it that. If it is not then you need to provide a definition for NS to use in this context. (2) Predation does occur in the wild. It's called the food chain and is obvious. This does not follow from your first point until you can state what NS definitively is and is not. (3) No, it shows that predation can alter allele frequencies. I'm not entirely sure who disagrees with this notion. (4) Differential predation rates over pre-existing morphs does not show 'specific functional adaptation' unless you have some truly perverse idea about what a 'cause' is and what an 'effect' is. This goes back to your statements in (1) again. I'll stop here as it is already getting too long in the tooth. But if your statement is that the vocal and self-selected minority that argue for YEC/ID demonstrate that YEC/ID is 'intellectually bankrupt' on the basis of their fallacies and sophistries... Then you simply have no argument against me considering the same of not only YEC/ID but of Evo as well. If not based on the majority of argumentation witnessed by Evo proponents, then by your own inability to use any manner of rationality. Unless your argument is to state that 'But it's ok when my side does it.' But that doesn't seem to improve things any.Maus
August 5, 2012
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Axel you state: He worships a nasty God, too, Nick. actually Axel the new atheists are the ones who worship a 'nasty' god. The first part of this video shows what new atheists think of God: Ben Stein vs. Richard Dawkins Interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc Needless to say Dawkins view is NOT my view of God.bornagain77
August 5, 2012
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Of related interest, here are a few comments from the 'non-Darwinian' evolutionist, James A. Shapiro - PhD. Genetics
Shapiro on Random Mutation: "What I ask others interested in evolution to give up is the notion of random accidental mutation." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/jerry-coyne-fails-to-unde_b_1411144.html -Comment section Shapiro on Natural Selection: "My argument remains that the innovative process in evolution is rapid natural genetic engineering rather than gradual selection of small changes over long periods of time. This argument does not deny a role for selection. I simply assert that it is unrealistic to ascribe a creative (virtually deus ex machina) role to natural selection." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/theory-of-evolution_b_1294315.html Shapiro on Cell cognition: "Recent postings have provoked numerous questions about my application of the term "cognitive" to cell regulatory processes. I base this usage on the notion that cognitive actions are knowledge-based and involve decisions appropriate to acquired information. It is common today for molecular, cell and developmental biologists to speak of cells "knowing" and "choosing" what to do under various conditions. While most scientists using these terms would insist they are just handy metaphors, I argue here that we should take these instinctive words more literally. Cell cognition may well prove itself a fruitful scientific concept." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/cell-cognition_b_1354889.html
Of note: As with neo-Darwinists Shapiro admits he has no 'real time' empirical experiments for the origin of novel protein domains/genes by Darwinian processes (so as to be able to have the 'protein domains' to shuffle around in the first place) but must rely, as do neo-Darwinists, on the DNA/protein sequence similarity data to try to make his case that 'natural genetic engineering' occurred in the distant past so as to create the diversity we see in life on earth. Yet, just as with neo-Darwinists, Shapiro relying on sequence similarity Data to try to make his case for 'natural genetic engineering' has the very same 'unscientific' problem that neo-Darwinism has of assuming the conclusion beforehand to try to prove very question being asked. i.e. Can novel functional information be generated 'bottom up' by the material processes of neo-Darwinism?: Here is Shapiro admitting he must rely on sequence similarity data to try to make his case:
How Natural Genetic Engineering Solves Problems in Protein Evolution - James Shapiro - May 2012 Excerpt: When I pointed out the potential of domain shuffling by natural genetic engineering to Intelligent Design advocates who claimed protein evolution by natural mechanisms was impossible, they refused to recognize genomic data as irrefutable evidence and insisted on real-time experiments. I disagree with them strongly on the DNA sequence data. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/genetic-engineering_b_1541180.html
This elephant in the living room problem that Shapiro, and neo-Darwinists is exactly the question that needs to be asked! Doug Axe's work on the rarity of proteins is focused exactly on the rarity of individual protein domains/folds themselves. Doug Axe addresses James Shapiro's mistaken disagreement with Intelligent Design here:
On Protein Origins, Getting to the Root of Our Disagreement with James Shapiro - Doug Axe - January 2012 Excerpt: I know of many processes that people talk about as though they can do the job of inventing new proteins (and of many papers that have resulted from such talk), but when these ideas are pushed to the point of demonstration, they all seem to retreat into the realm of the theoretical. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/on_protein_orig055471.html
supplemental notes:
Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds: Doug Axe: Excerpt: The prevalence of low-level function in four such experiments indicates that roughly one in 10^64 signature-consistent sequences forms a working domain. Combined with the estimated prevalence of plausible hydropathic patterns (for any fold) and of relevant folds for particular functions, this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10^77, adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723 The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds - Douglas Axe - 2010 Excerpt Pg. 11: "Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991. Comparing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli, provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on average, for every new metabolic pathway. In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10^159 to one in 10^308 possibilities, something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin." http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1 The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds - Douglas Axe, Jay Richards - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-05-03T11_09_03-07_00 Seeing Past Darwin II: James A. Shapiro - James Barham - May 2012 Excerpt: Much in our culture depends upon the public’s being made aware that Darwinian theory as standardly interpreted is intellectually bankrupt.(2) And little that I have encountered communicates this fact so well as the work of James A. Shapiro. http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/05/03/darwin-ii-james-a-shapiro/
bornagain77
August 5, 2012
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He worships a nasty God, too, Nick. Not good medicine.Axel
August 5, 2012
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Funny also Nick that it still is commonly, and falsely, automatically assumed in the prevailing neo-Darwinian mindset that any mutations that generate any variations in any particular kind of species, such as the peppered moth variation, are completely random. Yet Shapiro, who is certainly not a IDists, has been creating quite a stir in recent years by pointing out that the vast majority of mutations that generate variations are NOT completely random as is required by within the modern synthesis of neo-Darwinism:
Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112). http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf
This, Nick, is not comforting in the least to your basic neo-Darwinian presuppositions that all life arose by purely random, unguided, processes! In fact when we test the central claim of neo-Darwinism, the claim that purely random variations can create novel beneficial features that can then be selected, we find, 'surprisingly', that neo-Darwinism's central claim comes up woefully inadequate!
Response to John Wise - October 2010 Excerpt: But there are solid empirical grounds for arguing that changes in DNA alone cannot produce new organs or body plans. A technique called "saturation mutagenesis"1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12 None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans--because none of the observed developmental mutations benefit the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.html
Moreover, we now have solid evidence that your not even in the right ballpark with the reductive materialistic neo-Darwinian framework Nick!
The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories - Stephen Meyer "Neo-Darwinism seeks to explain the origin of new information, form, and structure as a result of selection acting on randomly arising variation at a very low level within the biological hierarchy, mainly, within the genetic text. Yet the major morphological innovations depend on a specificity of arrangement at a much higher level of the organizational hierarchy, a level that DNA alone does not determine. Yet if DNA is not wholly responsible for body plan morphogenesis, then DNA sequences can mutate indefinitely, without regard to realistic probabilistic limits, and still not produce a new body plan. Thus, the mechanism of natural selection acting on random mutations in DNA cannot in principle generate novel body plans, including those that first arose in the Cambrian explosion." http://eyedesignbook.com/ch6/eyech6-append-d.html
supplemental notes:
The Fate of Darwinism: Evolution After the Modern Synthesis - David J. Depew and Bruce H. Weber - 2011 Excerpt: We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes.,,, http://www.springerlink.com/content/845x02v03g3t7002/ The Rapid Origin of Domesticated Chicken - Cornelius Hunter - March 2012 Excerpt: The research finds that epigenetic mechanisms may be the cause of the rapid origin of domesticated chickens brought about by breeding, and that these epigenetic changes are reliably and stably inherited, resulting in lasting change in a population. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/03/rapid-origin-of-domesticated-chicken.html
bornagain77
August 5, 2012
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correction: Have you somehow been given fiat right to dictate evidence we are allowed to considerbornagain77
August 5, 2012
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NickMatzke_UD you state:
Are they just congenitally unable to focus on a topic and engage in actual discussion, rather than spamming with irrelevant, thrown-together links and quotes
Funny that when you make unsubstantiated claims that the cyclical variation within peppered moths is proof that all life arose by neo-Darwinian processes you do not consider this unmitigated hogwash, but when I pointed out that you can't even establish the fixation of single random beneficial mutation in a fruit fly in 35 years of trying,,, https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/turns-out-peppered-moths-take-care-to-protect-themselves-find-best-position/#comment-429167 then you consider this 'spam'? MMM Hmm, and exactly why is very speculative supporting evidence given such bias over direct empirical evidence in your 'impartial' view of science? Have you somehow been fiat right to dictate what evoidence we are allowed to consider and what evidence we are not allowed to consider. Sorry Nick, I'm not nearly as impressed with you hot air as you are!bornagain77
August 5, 2012
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Oh yeah, I forgot to add: 7. Bornagain77's posts -- what the heck? I mean, really, do you guys like having him/her on your side? That person specializes in thread derailment and in not engaging the actual topic under discussion. Are they just congenitally unable to focus on a topic and engage in actual discussion, rather than spamming with irrelevant, thrown-together links and quotes?NickMatzke_UD
August 5, 2012
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Ugh, this "discussion" thread just further illustrates the complete intellectual bankruptcy of the creo/ID side. 1. There's absolutely no evidence for environmental/epigenetic factors control whether a peppered moth is light or dark. This was suggested decades ago, looked for and not found. On the contrary, when scientists looked for Mendelian inheritance, the trait was found to be Mendelian. I.e., it's genetic, like many other thousands of inherited traits in other species (e.g., flower color, eye color, hair color, etc.) Furthermore, recent studies in the last few years have narrowed down the region of the genome that controls melanism. As was mentioned, they also found classic genomic signatures of a selective sweep there (reduced diversity in that region). And this is exactly what you would expect if Majerus's suggestion -- that a point mutation swept through the population -- is correct. You can't just sit around and make half-baked comments suggesting that some already-refuted explanation is more plausible and expect to be taken seriously. And other creationists can't just sit around and let junk like this get said by their side without correction. It completely discredits your claims to intellectual credibility. 2. A similar attempt at distraction is the failure to admit that the DI/UD posts tried to use the Korean study to cast doubt on the British peppered moth studies, even though it is *already tested and known* that peppered moths don't have the actively-search-for-matching-background behavior which was the major point of the Korean study. #1 and the points below have been raised just to avoid admitting the mistakes made by DI/UD. 3. Another attempt at evasion/distraction is to pretend that the peppered moth study, by itself, is supposed to be some kind of universal proof of every piece of evolution. That's just crazy. The peppered moth work does demonstrate several things: (1) NS is real; (2) it occurs in the wild, sometimes at rates that humans can observe over a few years; (3) selection can spread mutations from miniscule frequencies (the first dark moth was only observed in the 1800s IIRC) to very high frequencies (it was 99% in highly polluted regions); (4) the result of this process is a specific functional adaptation to the environment, i.e. camouflage, which "looks designed". None of (1)-(4) should be controversial, even to IDists/creationists who usually say that they accept that at least natural selection at least exists, and it's all just a product of demographics and differential survival rates over the course of a few decades. It's not "mysterious". But for some reason, probably just blind instinctive antievolutionism and hatred for evolution, you guys feel the need to dispute these. 4. An even stranger claim some creationists/IDists have been making recently is something about how selection can't fix mutations. In the peppered moth, we've observed melanism go from basically 0% frequency to 99% frequency in polluted regions. But you're seriously going to try to make some kind of argument that getting from 99% to 100% is impossible? Why? Any change in allele frequency is just demographics. If you assert that fixation is impossible for some bizarre reason, you are asserting that it's impossible for the 1% or 0.1% or whatever of a population to die off. Why, oh why, would this be impossible? 5. Yet another bizarre claim is the idea that you can't distinguish selection from drift. But it's trivial to do so in a case like the peppered moth, where you have measurements of allele frequency for many years. Genetic drift is random. Allele frequencies randomly move up and down each generation. Natural selection is nonrandom. Allele frequencies move in whatever direction selection is pushing. When you graph these two options, they are totally different. In any large population, drift means the allele frequency exhibits brownian motion, i.e. "drifts" up and down, back and forth, etc. But selection means the allele frequency moves smoothly in one direction, in a smooth sigmoidal curve, until it hits fixation. In other words, for the love of God, look stuff up. Google is your friend. E.g.: http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/natural-selection-genetic-drift-and-gene-flow-15186648 6. Lastly, yet one more bit of bizarre weirdness put forth in this thread is that the peppered moth example is irrelevant because the moths are going back to the light "peppered" form. But we know the cause of that -- the cause is the Clean Air Act that England passed in the 1950s. Up until the 1950s, large parts of England were polluted by black soot "fallout" from the smokestacks of factories. Photos show soot coating buildings and trees. The peppered moth populations in polluted areas gradually turned melanic during this period. After the Clean Air Act, the environment became cleaner, and the lighter moths were favored again. Natural selection means that populations track the environment. If an environmental change is permanent, then the adaptive change will be also. But if it's not, it's not. When you make the "it's irrelevant because the moths went back to light" argument, you are effectively saying "it's irrelevant because the Brits passed the Clean Air Act, but if they had let the environment remain polluted, it would be relevant". It's a bizarre argument you are making. No well-informed scientist will ever take ID/creationism seriously when you make these sorts of arbitrary and confused claims, or leave them standing without rebuttal. The point of the peppered moth story is that natural selection changes allele frequencies in an adaptive direction. The fact that this happened both to make the species darker (in a polluted environment) and lighter (in a clean environment) makes the example stronger, not weaker. Short version: you're not going to get any respect from the scientific community, nor deserve it, until you can eliminate your basic, crashingly basic, mistakes, and correct the mistakes from others on your side, and only criticize the science when you actually know what you are talking about and actually take the actual published data seriously.NickMatzke_UD
August 5, 2012
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Of related interest: The Mysterious Epigenome. What lies beyond DNA - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpXs8uShFMo Epigenetic changes don't last - September 2011 Excerpt: They found that epigenetic changes are many orders of magnitude more frequent than conventional DNA mutations, but also often short lived. They are therefore probably much less important for long-term evolution than previously thought. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-epigenetic-dont.htmlbornagain77
August 5, 2012
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Maybe it’s chemicals that control this putative ‘control region’, such as factory emissions, or tree bark chemicals themselves. This is the more likely explanation of “industrial melanization.” So, what, then, becomes of this “icon of evolution.”
I don't think you understood the use of the word 'control'. They are talking about the genetic and developmental mechanism that underlies ('controls') the difference between the black (carbonaria) and peppered (typical) forms, which is ultimately determined by a difference in DNA base sequence (that we haven't quite pinpointed yet). This difference is fixed within individuals irrespective of the environmental conditions the caterpillars grow up in. The relative survival of the dark and light forms is influenced by their visibility on different coloured resting surfaces, to bird predators. You should read a recent article, published in Biology Letters, dealing with the bird predation side of the story: http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2012/01/27/rsbl.2011.1136.short?rss=1Starbuck
August 5, 2012
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CG: That first few responses thing is key, cf say 32 above (and there are others), which clips a key part of the just linked by PJ. Note for instance PaV at 11 and BA 77 at 16, which also points to and clips the ENV article. In short, the evidence is that NM was responded to fairly promptly and on the merits. KFkairosfocus
August 5, 2012
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Hi Carlg, I think you will find most of Nicks points are in some ways answered here. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/journal_of_evol062781.html I think it may be why he hasn't been back to this thread?PeterJ
August 5, 2012
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I am addressing only Nick's first post and the first few responces. As a proponent of ID I read Nick's post with interest and thought he made a few good points. In reading the responces I thought maybe I was on the Richard Dawkins site. His specific points went unanswered as only antidarwinian arguments were made. This long non sequiter approach was continued with a piling on effect. If consensus is of limited value among scientists, it has no value on web site for advocates. When you fall while water sking, let go of the rope. Admit his good points and move on. As for Nick's name calling, please don't emulate it. Never get in your opponents way when they are self destructing.carlg
August 4, 2012
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