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What Does T. cistoides Have To Do With Darwin’s Finches?

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Because of a prediction, a very strong prediction, I made on another thread, I’ve had reason to look into just what has been happening to Darwin’s finches way off on the Galapagos Islands.

Here is a paper published last year in Science Magazine by the Grants, experts in Darwin’s finches. I looked at their paper, looked at their data, and have come to the conclusion that what I predicted as the ultimate explanation to changed beak sizes is the more reasonable interpretation of the data they present.

But before we even get to the data, here’s a remark from a National Geographic website review of the article that supports my basic position:

“ Researchers from New Jersey’s Princeton University have observed a species of finch in Ecuador’s Galápagos Islands that evolved to have a smaller beak within a mere two decades.
Surprisingly, most of the shift happened within just one generation, the scientists say.”

The shift happened in ONE year? What kind of population genetics are at play here?

Well, to the data:

The most important information that we get from the article (only 3 pages in pdf) are contained in Table 1 and Figure 2.

The Grants’ paper is concerned with how Geospiza fortis and Geospiza magnarostris compete. Their conclusion is that during the drought years of 2003-2004, when the population numbers of both species fell drastically, that the “competition” from G. magnarostris, due to the numbers of both species being almost the same for the first time since G. magnarostris came over from the mainland, caused “character displacement” (beak size change) of G. fortis to a smaller size.

Table 1 gives the number of observed feedings of the three main seed types (small, medium, large) by each of the species. Figure 2 gives the beak size mean of G. fortis over the last 33 years, beginning in 1973-74.

The Grant’s give four ‘lines of support’ for their conclusion. Their fourth ‘line of support’, I believe, becomes the very reason for re-interpreting their results. The fourth ‘line of support’ is that in the drought year 1977, when G. magnarostris were few in numbers, and hence, not able to compete with G. fortis, the beak size of G. fortis actually increased so as to be able to take advantage of the Tribulus cistoides seeds (the large ones), whereas in 2004, with a similar drought taking place, but, however, with G. magnarostris now able to compete with G. fortis, the beak size of G. fortis decreased.

Let’s first notice all of Figure 2. For most of the 33 years that it records beak size, the beak size hardly fluctuates from its mean; there are only two noticeable/significant exemptions: the two drought periods, when, in BOTH instances, beak size changed almost ‘instantaneously’. The title of the National Geographic review had “instant” in its title.

Now to my prediction: my prediction is that changes in the morphology of species is driven mostly, if not completely, by environmental ‘triggers’. Table 1 now becomes important. Notice the difference between the observed feedings of G. fortis between 1977 and 2004. While both were small, the number of feedings on T. cistoides for G. fortis dropped from one sixth for 1977-1989, to one twelfth for 2004—half as much! But that’s not all of the story. In the paper, the Grants indicate that when examing these lowered ‘feedings’, whereas in normal years an average ‘feeding’ on T. cistoides was 9 to 23 mericarps, in 2004 it was never on more than 2 mericarps. That’s a factor of somewhere between 5 and 12. Taken altogether, then, this means that the amount of T. cistoides consumed by G. fortis fell in 2004 to somewhere between one tenth, and one twenty-fourth, of its normal consumption.

Let’s also notice that while both G. fortis and G. magnarostris were decimated, G. magnarostris did not change its beak size to a smaller one. If we look at ‘feeding’ observations for G. magnarostris we see that while they ate a larger proportion of the medium sized seeds than normal, nonetheless, their main intake continued to be T. cistoides.

The more reasonable interpretation of the Grants data is this: there is some protein(s) found in T. cistoides that cause beak size (and other (6) correlated characteristics, see Table 2) to increase, and that in the absence of these protein(s) beak size will diminish. The most likely method of this change is, I believe, through a changed developmental pattern in the next generation. (One possibility is that RNA is involved here, and that somehow the presence of protein(s) that come(s) from the ‘large’ seeds is able to transmit the fact of its presence, or absence, to the subsequent generation).

This thesis, though controversial perhaps, renders what we see—over a 33 year history—sensible, because: (1) It explains why G. magnarostris, despite being decimated by the drought, still does not change—since it is still principally ‘feeding’ on T. cistoides; (2) It explains why G. fortis changes beak size in ONE generation (“Instant” evolution); and (3) most importantly, it explains why in 1977, at a time when G. magnarostirs was very small in numbers, G. fortis INCREASED its beak size in ONE generation; that is, since there were no G. magnarostris to compete with, the G. fortis had all the T. cistoides to themselves. In the next generation beak size “popped-up” in size to the same degree that it decreased in size during the 2004 drought when their consumption of T. cistoides dropped drastically.

As a follow-up to this study, here is what the Grant’s propose: “Our findings should prove useful in designing realistic experiments, by identifying ecological context (high densities at the start of an environmental stress) and by estimating the magnitude of natural selection.

Here is what I consider to be another important point in all of this. From an ID perspective, this kind of an experiment is a complete waste of time. What would be valuable, OTOH, is an experiment wherein native Galapagos seeds are fed to controlled populations of G. magnarostris and G. fortis while observing changes to beak size (and other traits that are correlated). You see, ID really is “science”!

Finally, let’s remember that Kettlewell’s experiment and the Galapagos Finches are the Modern Synthesis’ great claims to fame. Well, I think they got it completely wrong. What do you think?

Comments
Creationists/IDists don’t generally have a problem with the idea that selection can weed out the less fit — we just don’t believe that this is the explanation for the arrival of the fit. In this case, the arrival of the fit surely came about as a developmental phenomenon whereby the mother finch (assuming she lived, of course) somehow “sensed” this new diet (new diets can certainly be a stressor if the right morphology is not in place to consume it properly)…and this probably generated specific hormones which acted on the genetic program of her developing embryos.
Van, remember that there was no breeding in the drought year. So in order for you theory to be true, the mother finch would have had to sense the drought year before it occurred and thus impart the changed beak to their offspring so they could survive the upcoming drought of 2005. Is that what you are suggesting?hrun0815
January 23, 2008
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Bob...even if the drought caused the death of birds with the ill-fitted beaks, that still does not provide evidence for the origin of the fit. The origin of the fit is ultimately what's in question here: was it merely randomness or accidental -- or was it somehow directed from within the organism as a response to the environment. Creationists/IDists don't generally have a problem with the idea that selection can weed out the less fit -- we just don't believe that this is the explanation for the arrival of the fit. In this case, the arrival of the fit surely came about as a developmental phenomenon whereby the mother finch (assuming she lived, of course) somehow "sensed" this new diet (new diets can certainly be a stressor if the right morphology is not in place to consume it properly)...and this probably generated specific hormones which acted on the genetic program of her developing embryos. This guy says it a bit better than I have: http://www.biology.duke.edu/nijhout/polyphenism.htm "It appears that in the control of polyphenic development, hormones act as stimuli that induce discrete switches in developmental pathways. There is independent regulation of the pattern of hormone secretion, of tissue receptivity to the hormone, and of the developmental response of each tissue to the hormone. Because hormone secretion is regulated by the central nervous system, this mechanism allows development to become responsive to environmental variables. Variation in tissue sensitivity to the hormones allows the developmental switch to produce alternative phenotypes in response to specific environmental signals. This is interesting from an evolutionary perspective because genetic variation in the signal and the response mechanisms provide the basis for the evolution of adaptive developmental responses to environmental contingencies." All this is quite testable on finches -- so where are the experiments?van
January 23, 2008
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Because birds with big beaks died. That's what the stuff about selection differentials is saying. BobBob O'H
January 23, 2008
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Bob, you say that I’m not reading the paper correctly. You say that no breeding, hence no young, were born in 2004, and that the young from one year become the adults in the next year, and you say that adult morphology, at least hard tissue like beaks doesn’t change. So, then, please explain why the beak size changed in the year 2005.
Because mortality of G. fortis in that year was strongly correlated to beak size.hrun0815
January 23, 2008
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Bob, you say that I'm not reading the paper correctly. You say that no breeding, hence no young, were born in 2004, and that the young from one year become the adults in the next year, and you say that adult morphology, at least hard tissue like beaks doesn't change. So, then, please explain why the beak size changed in the year 2005.PaV
January 23, 2008
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I’m referring to Figure 2. The drought years were 2003 and 2004. No breeding occurred those years, meaning, no young were hatched. So, in 2003, we’re only dealing with adults. In 2004 we’re only dealing with adults. In 2005, we’re dealing with both adults and young finches.
If there was no breeding in 2004, then there were no new adults in 2005 (unless through immigration) - young finches in one year become adults in the next year. This is how the legend to Fig. 1 starts: "Mean beak size PC1 bill of adult G. fortis (sexes combined) in the years 1973 to 2005." Grant and Grant were only studying adult birds, so the 2005 recruits were not measured.
(1) is it entirely impossible for adult features to change under the influence of certain proteins/chemicals ? We have the recent case of steroids and baseball, for example.
What position does the Darwin's finch usually play? The ball? :-) More seriously, we're talking about skeletal morphology here, not soft tissue. We're also talking about a part of the body that isn't surrounded by soft tissue, so it's difficult to see how changes in the size and shape could be rendered. It might be that it's possible that beak size can change in adult finches, but you would need to dig through the literature yourself to find the evidence. It's a part of doing science, we've all had to do it.
Non-breeding explains why there wasn’t a “decrease” in either drought year. It’s simply because there were no ‘young’ being hatched.
Ah, I see. You haven't read the paper properly. Only adults were measured.
OTOH, the Grants have to explain how such a large change occurred in just “one” generation.
They do that. That's what all the talk is about selection differentials is about - comparing the beak sizes of survivors and individuals that died. BobBob O'H
January 22, 2008
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Bob O'H: (31) What are you saying? (1 )that beak size increases in adults? (2) that the change was just sampling variation? It would seem to be a coincidence that such a huge change would coincide with the drought. And how does non-breeding explain why there wasn’t a decrease? Does bill size change in adults? I'm referring to Figure 2. The drought years were 2003 and 2004. No breeding occurred those years, meaning, no young were hatched. So, in 2003, we're only dealing with adults. In 2004 we're only dealing with adults. In 2005, we're dealing with both adults and young finches. As to the increase in the beak size of adults, here are two observations: (1) is it entirely impossible for adult features to change under the influence of certain proteins/chemicals ? We have the recent case of steroids and baseball, for example. (2) We're talking about changes that fall within the confidence interval of the previous year; IOW, it's a minor change. That's why I said that it could be due simply to sampling differences from one year to the next. But the reference was to the years 2003-2004. The "huge change" you refer to happened in 2005. Non-breeding explains why there wasn't a "decrease" in either drought year. It's simply because there were no 'young' being hatched. So, in 2003 and in 2004 there were only adults to sample. All the change the Grants report happened in one year: 2005. To me, everything is very consistent with the hypothesis I propose. OTOH, the Grants have to explain how such a large change occurred in just "one" generation.PaV
January 22, 2008
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Bob O’H: How so? Look at what happened in 1977. It was a drought year. Beak sizes went up; feeding on T. cistoides causes beak sizes to increase. It might even have that effect on adults from year to year. But part of the increase could just simply be due to sampling differences from year to year. The real point is that the non-breeding (non-mating) explains why there wasn’t a “decrease” in the beak size those years.
What are you saying? (1 )that beak size increases in adults? (2) that the change was just sampling variation? It would seem to be a coincidence that such a huge change would coincide with the drought. And how does non-breeding explain why there wasn't a decrease? Does bill size change in adults?
I'm sorry, Where do you get that from? I can’t see it in the paper. The size of the confidence interval and the standard deviation are directly related. Variance is simply the standard deviation squared. You’ll notice an unusually large confidence interval for 2005.
Fig. 2 shows the 95% confidence interval for the mean. This also depends on the sample size. If you read the text, you'll see that that is the year with the lowest sample size. On its own you can't use it to say anything about the variance in the trait. BobBob O'H
January 22, 2008
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I think it's pretty clear that the consumption of a different, more-difficult-to-eat seed is causing the release of a hormone in the mother, which not only may alter her beak size/shape, but also alter the beak of her offspring. Lamarck was right.van
January 22, 2008
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Bob O'H: That’s more or less what Grant and Grant say - G. fortis was forced to shift to a less optimal source of nutrition. I guess if you allow different nutrition to include less nutrition, you’re saying the same thing. That doesn't do justice to the data. Yes, there is a competitive population component to all of this---as seen in comparing 1977 t0 2005. But the morphological change is entirely due to diet, and has almost nothing to do with a competitive population being present. The 'trigger' is dietal. The competitive population---and the lack of rain!!--- simply has a role in what the diet consists of in a given year.PaV
January 22, 2008
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Mapou: And isn’t that supporting the ID hypothesis that a designer anticipated future environmental changes and pre-loaded the genome with enough anticipatory information so as to adapt? If we want to play with things for a second, in a plant study on Arabadopsis a few years ago, the experimenters found that there were a kind of set of 'templates', RNA templates, found in the germ cells, and that these 'templates' came from more than one generation back, with the ability to sort of "substitute" different "versions" of particular genes. As I say, if we play with all of this, we could then suggest that what happens in nature---flora and fuana, plants and animal---is that some kind of patterning takes place over a number of generations. Along the lines of voice-controlled software, where you have to pronounce certain words the program gives you so that the program can learn your inflection patterns, maybe in a particular environment, with a particular food source, a pattern/template is established and stored (!!), like RAM memory, wherein the regulatory mechanism for the genome is geared to the environmental conditions that prevail in a particular year(s). IOW, in drought years, use Program D; in wet years use Program W. Based on the dietary inputs for a given year, 'templates' are brought out from the organism's genetic 'memory' (perhaps using RNA instead of DNA, and built up over decades of environmental change), and "run", as we would say. The idea really does make a whole lot of sense. (And makes Lamarck a bit more of a hero!)PaV
January 22, 2008
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The size of the confidence interval and the standard deviation are directly related. Variance is simply the standard deviation squared. You’ll notice an unusually large confidence interval for 2005.
The large size of the confidence interval is not necessarily due to a large variance. Typically, the confidence interval is not the standard deviation but the standard error of the mean. It is therefor dependent on sample size (the larger the sample size, the smaller the standard error of the mean). Thus, the larger confidence interval is not necessarily due to a larger variance but more likely due to the fact that the sample size (the number of each species) declined drastically in those years.hrun0815
January 22, 2008
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Bob O'H: How so? Look at what happened in 1977. It was a drought year. Beak sizes went up; feeding on T. cistoides causes beak sizes to increase. It might even have that effect on adults from year to year. But part of the increase could just simply be due to sampling differences from year to year. The real point is that the non-breeding (non-mating) explains why there wasn't a "decrease" in the beak size those years. Where do you get that from? I can’t see it in the paper. The size of the confidence interval and the standard deviation are directly related. Variance is simply the standard deviation squared. You'll notice an unusually large confidence interval for 2005.PaV
January 22, 2008
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ari-freedom: and on p 194-197 he explains how the population can change in phenotype with no genetic variation or selection. Interesting. So what we have here is phenotypic adaptation without natural selection. Isn't that contrary to ND theory? And isn't that supporting the ID hypothesis that a designer anticipated future environmental changes and pre-loaded the genome with enough anticipatory information so as to adapt? This watchmaker was anything but blind. He could see into the future.Mapou
January 22, 2008
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Extrapolating PaV’s concept, could the change or differential survival be due to different nutrition based on the different type’s of seeds eaten?
That's more or less what Grant and Grant say - G. fortis was forced to shift to a less optimal source of nutrition. I guess if you allow different nutrition to include less nutrition, you're saying the same thing.
(1) that the average beak size went up slightly in both 2003 and 2004 before decreasing. The fact that no young were produced each of those years explains this fact.
How so?
(2) There is sizable variance in beak size for the year 2005;
Where do you get that from? I can't see it in the paper. BobBob O'H
January 22, 2008
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from Atom's Spetner quote "The adaptation ... can occur without any genetic change." and on p 194-197 he explains how the population can change in phenotype with no genetic variation or selection. Cultural channels could change the entire population and it would look as if something was inherited.ari-freedom
January 22, 2008
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pangenesisari-freedom
January 22, 2008
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Bob O'H: It turns out that your 'fact' isn't 'ugly' at all---in fact, it's quite pretty. Here's what I mean. When I read "breeding", I think of active, human agents being involved, and understood things this way. I would have expected "there was no mating in either year." That said, this "ugly fact", i.e., that the populations didn't breed (which also is suggestive of an 'environmental trigger'), actually clears up two things that concerned me: (1) that the average beak size went up slightly in both 2003 and 2004 before decreasing. The fact that no young were produced each of those years explains this fact. So, 2005 was, in fact, the first year that young were produced, and we see the 'instaneous' decrease in beak size that year. (2) There is sizable variance in beak size for the year 2005; but, of course, if you have adults with average size (large) beak sizes (the drought is over), and young with small beak sizes, then you would expect a lowered mean, and a large variance---which is exactly what we see. No mention is made of there being no 'breeding' during the 1977 drought, and for that year we see an immediate jump in beak size. The variance seems small, which might mean that when beak sizes were measured many of the 'adults' had died, leaving mainly the 'young' that had the larger beak size. As to the 'environmental triggers' and such, yes, I'm thinking of something along the lines of Lamarck.......but ALSO along the lines of Darwin's idea of panspermia (??? was that what he called it?) wherein various organs and parts of the body send a kind of 'seed' to the reproductive organs. This blend of the two might account for why two brilliant minds came up with separate theories with neither one fully capturing the phenomena they so carefully observed. Of course, time will tell in all of this.PaV
January 22, 2008
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Bob Good observation. Curious the phrase "strong directional selection against individuals with large beaks" Extrapolating PaV's concept, could the change or differential survival be due to different nutrition based on the different type's of seeds eaten?DLH
January 22, 2008
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PaV, I think your hypothesis would be very easy to verify with available data. According to your theory, there should be a drastic discontinuity of beak size either in the individuals that fed less on the T. cistoides seeds or in their offspring. That is, either the beaks of the individuals should shrink, or, the beak sizes of the offspring should be significantly smaller than the average beak size of the parents. In contrast, according to the Grant's theory, the beak size of the individuals should not change and the beak size of the offspring would be directly correlated to the average beak size of both parents. What actually changes the beak size of the population is that the individuals with smaller beaks produce more offspring than the individuals with larger beaks. Why don't you go over the published data and see which theory the data supports?hrun0815
January 22, 2008
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OK, now I've looked at the paper, and I think there's a slight problem.
Now to my prediction: my prediction is that changes in the morphology of species is driven mostly, if not completely, by environmental ‘triggers’.
Now, this could be read as suggesting a change in adult birds, but beak length is stable in size in adults. So...
The most likely method of this change is, I believe, through a changed developmental pattern in the next generation.
this would be a better interpretation - in essence, a form of Lamarckian inheritance. It would then mean that juvenile birds would have smaller beaks, but adults would have beaks of the same size (well, assuming no variation in survival!). Here's the problem. From the Grant & Grant paper:
Little rain fell in 2003 (16 mm) and 2004 (25 mm), there was no breeding in either year, numbers of both species declined drastically, and from 2004 to 2005 G. fortis experienced strong directional selection against individuals with large beaks (26).
(bolding mine, italics in the original) There was no recruitment into the population (except possibly by immigration), so there was no next generation to have smaller beaks. "The great tragedy of science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact" - T.H. Huxley BobBob O'H
January 22, 2008
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PaV - I'm on it, but I have to do some work first... BobBob O'H
January 21, 2008
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DLH: Checking out your links, it looks like all the literature citations I need have already been accounted for! :) Those references sure make me feel stronger about the conclusions I've reached. The above offer still stands. I'm waiting to hear from Bob O'H, for example. Got to run.PaV
January 21, 2008
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DLH: I tried to post earlier, and apparently something happened to it. You seem to be right on top of this side of the evolution debate. Thanks for the references---you're going to keep me busy for a while. As to a paper, I think Dembski's approach is good: put it out online, and then with criticisms in hand, publish. Quite honestly, if you want to run with it, I'm happy either to work something out with you or let you run with it--whatever works out best. shaner74: I was quite surprised myself by the suddenness.PaV
January 21, 2008
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Atom (15): I've read Spetner's book, and thought it was one of the best I had read on genetics and such. Thanks for pointing out the similarities. I don't think my ideas here are a result of his, but it certainly is time to pick up his book again and reread. Thanks.PaV
January 21, 2008
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Good discussion PaV. Reminds me of Dr. Lee Spetner's book, where he comes to the same conclusion and uses it as a starting point for his "Non-Random Evolutionary Hypothesis." He gives examples from different species, including how the presence (or absence) of predators can also trigger "built-in" development responses. From "Not By Chance" page 200:
Crabs prey on snails with thin shells, but they cannot eat snails that have thick shells. Snails can somehow tell if crabs are around. In the presence of crabs they grow a thick shell [Stearsn 1989]. This adaptation clearly helps protect the snails from the crabs. Snails are themselves predators. They prey on barnacles. When the barnacle senses snails, it protects itself by growing into a bent-over shape that keeps the snails from eating it. When there are no snails around, the barnacle develops into its normal straight form. [Stearns 1989, Lively 1986]. - I am suggesting here that organisms have a built-in capacity of adapting to their environment. I am suggesting that to the extent that evolution occurs, it occurs at the level of the organism. This suggestion differs sharply from the thesis of the NDT [Neo-Darwinian Theory], which holds that evolution occurs only at the level of the population. Organisms contain within themselves the information that enables them to develop a phenotype adaptive to a variety of environments. The adaption can occur by a change in the genome through a genetic change in the environment, or it can occur without any genetic change.
Atom
January 21, 2008
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What the Grants have shown, in my opinion anyway, is that true genetic novelties have NOT arisen. Their meticulous work has continued to display that with rainfall patterns, and the corollary of hard seed types remaining, that beak length gets longer or shorter. Climatic change brings beak lengthening, and when it oscillates back to the standard, beak shortening occurs. The situation is observable (drought v rains) but the trigger to cause the involuntary beak change has not. The idea of this food source as being the reason behind the beak lengthening is very interesting PaV, and I hope it goes somewhere. I've studied, though not in depth, the Grants work and have always been slightly confused. On Daphne Major, the studied group pre-drought (1976) was 751 birds. After the '77 drought the studied survivors numbered 90. The '76 graph show the standard curve, the '78 graph has a discernible peak between 10 and 10.5 mm for beak depth. This group of birds is really the focus of the whole study. If only 10 of those birds had not made it, I wonder if the study would have made such news. The curve would, in all respects, have been a less populated version of what was before and, except for this one particular spike, it is the classic curve. I've always considered there has been a lot of spin in this icon, and a less revered look at it could show many inconsistencies rather than evolutionised elegies. Rationalism V Empiricism? A lot has been written and eulogised over 2-3mm!AussieID
January 21, 2008
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PaV Here is an example of another "instant" dramatic change in ONE generation - of humans. Increase in length of leg relative to trunk in Japanese children and adults from 1957 to 1977: comparison with British and with Japanese Americans. Tanner JM, Hayashi T, Preece MA, Cameron N. Ann Hum Biol. 1982 Sep-Oct;9(5):411-23.
"Adult height increased by 4.3 cm in boys and 2.7 cm in girls between 1957 and 1977, the increment being less in the second decade than in the first."
Secular changes in relative leg length in post-war Japan. Ali MA, Uetake T, Ohtsuki F. Am J Hum Biol. 2000 May;12(3):405-416.
"A significant trend towards greater relative leg length (long-leggedness) among Japanese children and youth has occurred during the period of about four decades covered by this study. After showing a strikingly consistent trend at all age levels between 6 and 17 years and a dramatic trend during the birth-year age period 1943-1963, the relative growth in leg length has been rapidly slowing or has stopped in both sexes."
I think it will be important to compare changes against the typical time per generation for the species.DLH
January 21, 2008
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Great work PaV! I wasn't aware the change occurred so rapidly. I think your idea is dead on.shaner74
January 21, 2008
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PaV Strongly encourage you to pursue and publish your observation. Recommend posting a graph these parameters as described. See the following for the impact of nutrition on growth: Early Nutrition Causes Persistent Effects on Pheasant Morphology, Ohlsson & Smith, Physiological & Biochemical Zoology 74(2):212-218, 2001 "Differences in growth conditions during early ontogeny have been suggested to cause permanent affects on the morphology and quality of birds. . . . An experimental increase in the first 3 wk of life accelerate growth . . ." Effects of nestling diet on growth and adult size of zebra finches (poephila guttata) Peter T. Boag, The Auk, Vol. 104, April 1987, No. 2 p 155-166. ". . . a low-quality diet reduced growth rates of nine external morphological characters, while a high-quality diet increased gowth rates. . . ." See also: Citations to Boag 1987 Nestling diet, secondary sexual traits and fitness in the zebra finch, TR Birkhead. Proc. Biological Sciences, Vol. 266, No. 1417, Feb 22, 1999 pp 385-390 Also see the studies showing dramatic differences in size based on nutrition for human populations with similar genetic makeup. e.g. the studies of height of Japanese in Japan vs Japanese Americans in the last half of the 20th century. Your observation on the difference in see diet may reveal a specific nutrient strongly effecting growth separate from general nutrition. Both factors are worth exploring, especially seeing the strong difference in the table - and the implications for origin theories.DLH
January 21, 2008
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