Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Why on Earth would a layman accept Darwinistic claims?

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First, by “Darwinistic” I mean “atheistic-materialist neo-Darwinist”, which includes the view that even the origin of life can be explained by reference to chance and natural law.

As Alan Fox points out, many of those here are “laymen” when it comes to evolutionary biology.  Most of us are not specifically schooled or trained in that arena – by “us”, I mean anyone who is interested in the debate about Darwinian evolution vs ID-inclusive evolution.  I, like many, have informed myself to a moderate degree about Darwinistic claims and the ID argument, but I’m certainly not a professional scientist, nor a philosopher with any formal academic training.

IMO, a reasonable layman would be highly skeptical of claims that matter, chance & natural law can by themselves  produce the sophisticated software/hardware nano-systems and architecture found in each self-replicating cell, much less produce consciousness, teleological will, intelligence, and imagination.  A reasonable layman would be much more likely to hold – until convinced by a good understanding of compelling evidence otherwise – that consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination most probably come from that which has them or something like them already, and that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, organized, functional machinery that is operational through physically encoded instructions is only known to be originally produced by intelligence via teleological planning.  No one – to my knowledge – has ever witnessed unintelligent natural law, chance, and brute materials originate such devices and mechanisms. There is no good reason to believe that they can.

So I ask pro-Darwinistic, anti-ID laymen, like Alan Fox: without a professional  understanding of the biology, philosophy or logic involved, nor of information systems and theory, chemistry or bio-engineering, why on Earth would you accept that highly complex, hierarchical, interdependent, functional, self-replicating machines; consciousness, intelligence, teleological will and imagination can be produced (eventually) by the happenstance interactions of brute matter via law and chance?  What is the rational basis for accepting such a view,  especially if you admit that you do not really even understand the evidence/arguments pro or con because you are “just a layman”?

It seems to me laymen who do not feel qualified to argue the logic and the evidence on their own but instead prefer to defer to “experts” are in a situation where they should just remain skeptical of such claims, and certainly shouldn’t be cheerleading one side and dismissing the other.

Comments
Joealtle:
Science has shown how early cells could have been generated by simple chemistry, nothing shows any evidence of a higher being.
Either a troll or clueless (or both).Eric Anderson
April 27, 2013
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Getting the building blocks is the first step of getting the building and the most difficult when it comes to abiogenesis. Biological molecules are a lot different than bricks.Joealtle
April 27, 2013
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Pieces of abiogenesis are still in pieces. Getting building blocks does not get you the building.Joe
April 27, 2013
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Numerous studies are putting together the pieces of abiogenesis. There are many ideas on how it can happen and it was almost certainly a blend of many of these ideas. Simple molecules can arrrange themselves into structures with basic biological function to create early protocells. There is no evidence of an intelligent designer.Joealtle
April 27, 2013
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I would accept that nature was able to generate life from the primordial soup before I accepted the idea that some higher being exists.
You would accept something without evidence?
Science has shown how early cells could have been generated by simple chemistry, ...
No, it has not demonstrated such a thing. If it had then the scientists involved would have recieved Nobel Prizes. Yet no such Nobel has been handed out. And no such evidence is found.
nothing shows any evidence of a higher being.
Well you don't seem to know what evidence is.Joe
April 27, 2013
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I would accept that nature was able to generate life from the primordial soup before I accepted the idea that some higher being exists. Science has shown how early cells could have been generated by simple chemistry, nothing shows any evidence of a higher being.Joealtle
April 26, 2013
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Allan Miller doesn't get it either. He really thinks that a designer could design living organisms and after that the blind watchmaker takes over. That is like designing a car without knowing what it is going to do once it starts. No Allan, if living organisms were designed then the inference is they were designed to evolve and evolved by design- just as I have told you chumps when I could post there. That you can be willfully ignorant doesn't mean anything. Do you think that Stonehenge was designed yet the placement of stones showing the time of the year is purely accidental? "Oh yeah, we designed a computer but nature will do the programming."Joe
March 23, 2013
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"Wait, Chris…Don’t do that!" said lastyearon. Well, why not? If there's no objective morality, why can't we do whatever we like (or whatever evolution has hard-wired our brains to like)? And if there's no free will, who can blame anyone if they do something "wrong"?Chris Doyle
March 23, 2013
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kairosfocus, people like petrushka, Mike Elzinga, Patrick May- they are more dense than a singularity. They are walking black holes.Joe
March 22, 2013
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I’m off to do whatever it is that evolution hard-wired my brain to do next…
Wait, Chris...Don't do that! I heard somewhere that evolution leads to torturing babies and murdering millions of Jews.lastyearon
March 22, 2013
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FSCO/Ikairosfocus
March 22, 2013
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Joe, see what I mean about red herrings led out to strawmen? The issue pivots on origin of life in plausible prelife chemistry and physics. No answer there, no answer anywhere else after that. FYI, Petrushka, OOL is the ROOT of the tree[s] of life. No roots, no shoots, branches or twigs, whether chimps or humans. So, the mechanism issue starts at OOL and goes on from there. Until you have something that takes common design off the table, you have no credible evolutionary materialist account of origin of life or of body plans. And so far, the only empirically warranted explanation for DSCO/I is design. So, why should we not sit on the principle that like causes like? KFkairosfocus
March 22, 2013
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petrushka "answers" KF's challenge by asking a question:
Do you accept DNA evidence as used in courts as proof of paternity?
Yes, I do. And the DNA evidence used in courts as proof of paternity would say that humans are not related to chimps. Not only that the DNA evidence doesn't say anything about a mechanism- ie guided or unguided. That makes you a double-moron.Joe
March 22, 2013
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All praise evolution, Chance Ratcliff! What choice have you got?Chris Doyle
March 22, 2013
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If I feel pulverized, it’s because of beating my head against the brick wall of their impenetrably closed minds.
I did that once, then I evolved :) . Now I just expose them for what they are and tell them off. And it bothers them because the truth hurts. And it's good no-cost therapy.Joe
March 21, 2013
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Well Chris, I'll thank evolution for your comment then. Your atoms obviously have a good sense of taste. BA77's atoms have a good sense of humor. I could go on, but complementing every atom would take all day.Chance Ratcliff
March 21, 2013
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LOL at 95 and 96,,, :) ,,, too funny!bornagain77
March 21, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff, no point in me offering praise for your post: it's not like you freely chose to write it. You're just a bunch of atoms at the end of the day. So am I, I've got no choice in writing this either. In fact, this isn't me - there is no me - this post just wrote itself by accident. I'm off to do whatever it is that evolution hard-wired my brain to do next...Chris Doyle
March 21, 2013
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"If I feel pulverized, it’s because of beating my head against the brick wall of their impenetrably closed minds."
I think what is meant by pulverized is dismissed. You see, these things we go on about are illusory, nonexistent, unremarkable, emergent, or contrived. For instance, descriptive classifications of information are contrived. Free will is illusory. Consciousness is emergent. Objective moral truths are nonexistent. And the breadth of human experience, expression, and accomplishment is unremarkable, unless we're crediting Darwinian evolution.Chance Ratcliff
March 21, 2013
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If I feel pulverized, it's because of beating my head against the brick wall of their impenetrably closed minds.William J Murray
March 21, 2013
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'LITTLE MORE THAN EMPTY BLUFFING?' You're flanneling them shamelessly. KF. I think you mean, plum 'empty bluffing'.Axel
March 21, 2013
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Joe [G] There is a very simple test, one that in two day's time -- a full half orbit of the Earth around the Sun -- will be six months old. That is, there is an offer on the table to host here at UD, a 6,000 word essay -- equivalent of about 40 minutes of talking straight -- laying out a presentation of the decisive case for evolutionary materialist origin of life and body plans, i.e. from microbes to Mozart. If the TSZ denizens do have such a pulverising case, it would be child's play to summarise it, include links on where to go for more, and sent it in. That, for just about six months now, we have seen carping, ducking, dodging, attempts to divert to snip and snipe games as usual, and otehr antics, tells us loud and clear that TSZ etc do NOT have the case that is being boasted of. And if any over at TSZ object, there is a very simple answer: submit the case. It would be published here at UD, by me. This is a free kick at goal. So, why are there in the end no takers after six months? ABSENT A SERIOUS RESPONSE, WE CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK THAT WHAT WE ARE HEARING IN BOASTS ABOUT PULVERISING CASES IS LITTLE MORE THAN EMPTY BLUFFING. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2013
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Does anyone here feel pulverized? I ask because Joe Felsenstein has declared that the septic zone ilk have been pulverizing our arguments againts evolutionism. I guess if one counts equivocation as a pulverizing mechanism, then our arguments would be pulverized. If one counts bald assertion as a pulverizing mechanism, our arguments would be pulverized. If one counts pulverizing a strawman as a pulverizing mechansim, then our arguments would be pulverized. However if one counts only positive evidence as a pulverizing mechanism, then no, our arguments have not been pulverized. They haven't even been properly addressed. So stuff another donut in it Joe.Joe
March 21, 2013
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steveO:
I believe that elsewhere you’ve said that blind and undirected chemical processes cannot be shown produce FCSI. I agree with you on this.
That is ID's position. Dembski states it. Meyer states it. And I would say all IDists agree. And I thnk I see your point- if nature was designed such that it could bring about FCSI given specific circumstances, would that refute ID? Designed as in front-loaded to bring about, like your program. If the processes were indistinguishable from blind and undirected processes then we wouldn't infer design. So it would all depend. Alan Fox, believe it or not, provided some insight for design detection-> discontinuities, as in we need something that can be distinguished from blind and undirected processes in order to infer design.Joe
March 21, 2013
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Joe I believe that elsewhere you've said that blind and undirected chemical processes cannot be shown produce FCSI. I agree with you on this.steveO
March 21, 2013
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Lizzie Liddle sez:
We know that Darwinian mechanisms can result in “the appearance of design”.
Unfortunately no one "knows" that, Lizzie. No one knows how to even test that claim. If there were such evidence then we wouldn't be having this debate. This is totally unbelievable. Lizzie doesn't accept ID because she sez there isn't any evidence but then she turns around and claims there is evidence for something that is totally lacking evidence. Earth to Lizzie- your word is meaningless without supporting evidence.Joe
March 21, 2013
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SteveO- Nature/ natural has two meanings- existing in nature and produced by nature. Living organisms exist in natureJoe
March 21, 2013
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Evidently, Dawkins, Denton & Co are mystagogues.Axel
March 21, 2013
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And life = nature iff (if and only if) nature, operating freely, produced life
So to you, Joe, does the term nature include life on earth?steveO
March 21, 2013
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A most anomalous confirmation of a mindset betraying a total lack of an empirically-scientific underpinning of Darwinism, is surely provided by the concession of Dawkins, Denton et al, below (an iteration of Dawkins' words quoted by WJM in his post #28) below: “Living objects look designed, they look overwhelmingly as though they’re designed. Biology is the study of complicated things which give the impression of having been designed for a purpose.” For crying out loud, they are now disavowing the very definition and rationale of the term 'empirical', as it is applied to 'empirical science'; usually implicitly, as it is so routinely applied to the term, 'science', and now so distinctively defines it. Science is about APPEARANCES; what is measurable; what is apparent, however indirectly, to the senses. These people have no problem accepting the most paradoxical features of quantum mechanics, their lineaments apparent only indirectly by the most sophisticated, modern measuring apparatuses, yet baulk, nay recoil at the APPEARANCE, seemingly most dubious, of design THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE OF NATURE, if in inorganic matter, only at the quantum level. So they seem to be defining themselves as partisans of a scientific counter-culture, repudiating empirical evidence as the sine qua non of science, itself. Bravo, Dawks!Axel
March 21, 2013
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