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Eric Anderson: Why randomness is “the wrong tool for the job”

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Author and design theorist, Eric Anderson, clarifies the limitations of randomness in producing biological novelty.

Randomness is an important topic, true.  But not because it has, in and of itself, some deep substantive value or because it is going to help explain biological form and function.  It is important to the evolution-ID debate, primarily because it has been historically offered by evolutionary proponents as the fodder for change, the grist of the mill from which Darwin’s theory can operate, and we need to point out in the debate that this is a fool’s errand.

What does “random” mean in terms of mutations within evolutionary theory?

Despite the exciting headlines of several recent papers, it has nothing to do with whether there is some non-equal distribution across the genome, whether there are hot spots, or even what the actual cause of these mutations is behind the scenes.  That is not what we are talking about in terms of evaluating “random” mutations for evolutionary theory.

More critically, for purposes of intelligent design, we needn’t get into deep and esoteric discussions or hand wringing about what randomness actually means in some esoteric sense, whether anything in the universe is ever truly random, or even whether there is some underlying order that allows the randomness to be manifest.  And we needn’t all go back to get our PhD’s in mathematics or study number theory in depth in order to understand the issues.

For purposes of ID, the two corollary issues we need to appreciate are very simple:

First, randomness (specifically, random mutations for purposes of evolutionary theory), simply does not have the creative power to generate the biological novelty required to explain living organisms.  This has been discussed extensively in the ID literature….

Second, and more focused on the current discussion, we need to recognize that even if randomness isn’t truly random in some mathematical definitional sense, even if what appears random to us is governed by some underlying larger principles or follows discernible patterns, it still has no ability to generate the biological novelty required to explain living organisms

Law-like processes, by their very nature, are too general and generic to ever provide the specificity required to produce something like, say, the bacterial flagellum.  It doesn’t matter if we’re talking about the four fundamental forces or some underlying “order” to the universe that governs things.  It doesn’t matter how far under the hood you look–law-like forces or processes simply cannot ever provide the creative purchase required for the functional, coherent, information-rich systems we see in biology. 

Therefore, in terms of explaining biological systems, any proposed underlying order or principle or force or process that either produces what we perceive as randomness or that acts as a backdrop against which randomness is manifest, simply cannot explain what needs to be explained.  It is the wrong tool for the job.

—– Lastly, if what someone is really talking about is a guided process, then they are talking about purposeful activity–intelligent design.  Occasionally confusing terminology is put forth, such as guided evolution, or guided randomness, or God working behind the scenes to influence quantum interactions, and so on.  Let’s be clear.  If it is guided, then it isn’t evolution as proposed by Darwin, as accepted within the modern academy, or as defined in the biology textbooks.  If it is guided, then we are talking about design.

Comments
F Hickson @ 64 Do any of these forms of "selection" have a mechanism for selection with foresight?hnorman42
June 7, 2022
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Fred Hickson:
If separate creation and human exceptionalism sits better in your psyche, fine by me. I’ve long since realised we humans, for all the power of our intellect, are ruled by our emotions.
If universal common descent via magical processes sits better in your psyche, fine by me. I’ve long since realized we humans, for all the power of our intellect, are ruled by our emotions.ET
June 7, 2022
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FH at 90, A truly civilized human being is civil.relatd
June 7, 2022
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Oh yes. I have that picture on my wall showing an ape as my relative and another showing a fish as my relative. Rubbish.
No problem. If separate creation and human exceptionalism sits better in your psyche, fine by me. I've long since realised we humans, for all the power of our intellect, are ruled by our emotions.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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Wikipedia -
Deuterostomia (/?dju?t?r??sto?mi.?/; lit.?'second mouth' in Greek)[2][3] are animals typically characterized by their anus forming before their mouth during embryonic development.
"Get thee behind me, Satan!"Seversky
June 7, 2022
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LCD: If nothing natural can account for emergence of life then must be something super-natural. Telic processes. Natural processes didn't produce Stonehenge, telic processes did. Heck, natural processes only exist in nature and because of that could not have produced it.ET
June 7, 2022
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FH at 86, Oh yes. I have that picture on my wall showing an ape as my relative and another showing a fish as my relative. Rubbish.relatd
June 7, 2022
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Why ignore the questions? They are scientific. Are you just another animal? If so, why do you believe that to be true?
In the biological sense, Relatd, all people are animals. We belong in the clade Deuterostomia, which means we are doughnuts, topologically speaking.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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Jerry at 82, Better warriors automatically had more wives? What is that based on?relatd
June 7, 2022
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FH at 80, Why ignore the questions? They are scientific. Are you just another animal? If so, why do you believe that to be true?relatd
June 7, 2022
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ET ID does not require the supernatural.
If nothing natural can account for emergence of life then must be something super-natural. Unless you know a 3rd option.Lieutenant Commander Data
June 7, 2022
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Eric, Thank you for the reply. It provides more arguments to my thesis that Darwin’s ideas are self refuting. As far as natural selection is concerned, there are good examples such as light skin color and the need for vitamin D in northern climates. This is an example of a physical environment shaping a characteristic. Then there is the idea of a culture shaping a characteristic such as successful warriors being given more wives and passing on characteristics that made them better warriors. Or the interaction of culture with environment such as trading and local availability of rivers leading to passing on mental skills that are good for merchants How you best define that, I am not sure but the idea is easy to understand. Aside: this is not Lamarckism as the traits are assume to be random and certain traits lead to success and get passed on. The blacksmith may develop big arms but one with big arms to begin with is more likely to be a successful blacksmith.jerry
June 7, 2022
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Fred @73: "Maybe, though I wonder where the front-loading stuff lives till it is needed and what switches it on when it is needed." Yes, I am very skeptical about that too. I think the switching on would be the easy part. But I just don't know that there is evidence, or reason to believe, that, for example, an early bacterium had all the genetic information for an elephant buried somewhere in its genome. I'm keeping an open mind about deep front-loading, particularly since we still don't know where all the information for organismal form is located, how much is required, and many details of other processes, such as transfer of genetic information. But I currently view it as unlikely.Eric Anderson
June 7, 2022
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This isn’t about biology, it’s about worldview. 1) Are you just another animal? 2) Will you do whatever you want based on this view? THAT is the problem here.
Are you making some sort of religious argument? ID is supposed to be science, no?Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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If those who speak for biology are causing unjust harm to people, then we should be concerned.
Why apply it only to biologists? You might have a word with Vladimir Putin.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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If we’re talking about initial conditions setup, with law-like processes attaining from thence forward, then I think we can rule it out.
I dunno, I'm not a strict determinist, so I don't think initial conditions set up a clockwork universe. The fact of quantum uncertainty rules out determinism for me. And an uncertain universe is so much more fun. Of course this means the Creator is throwing dice but what's wrong with that? Multiverses - multiple dice throws!Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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If those who speak for biology are causing unjust harm to people, then we should be concerned.Silver Asiatic
June 7, 2022
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FH at 72, This isn't about biology, it's about worldview. 1) Are you just another animal? 2) Will you do whatever you want based on this view? THAT is the problem here.relatd
June 7, 2022
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Fred @70: I'm hesitant to drift OT, but just FYI, there is no such thing as a self-replicating RNA, or any other self-replicating molecule, for that matter. (Merely catalyzing a reaction is not, and will never be, the same thing as selecting specific small molecules or atomic constituents from the environment and building a copy of a functional enzyme in the real world. Essentially all the hyped papers and news headlines derive mileage from conflating these very different processes.)Eric Anderson
June 7, 2022
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FH at 70, Sorry. I don't believe that can be proven. "It has been proposed that the first “biological” molecules on Earth were formed by metal-based catalysis on the crystalline surfaces of minerals. In principle, an elaborate system of molecular synthesis and breakdown (metabolism) could have existed on these surfaces long before the first cells arose. But life requires molecules that possess a crucial property: the ability to catalyze reactions that lead, directly or indirectly, to the production of more molecules like themselves. Catalysts with this special self-promoting property can use raw materials to reproduce themselves and thereby divert these same materials from the production of other substances. But what molecules could have had such autocatalytic properties in early cells? In present-day cells the most versatile catalysts are polypeptides, composed of many different amino acids with chemically diverse side chains and, consequently, able to adopt diverse three-dimensional forms that bristle with reactive chemical groups. But, although polypeptides are versatile as catalysts, there is no known way in which one such molecule can reproduce itself by directly specifying the formation of another of precisely the same sequence." Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26876/relatd
June 7, 2022
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One could of course propose a deep, sophisticated form of front-loading that would play out over time, but that is very different than just an initial conditions setup.
Maybe, though I wonder where the front-loading stuff lives till it is needed and what switches it on when it is needed.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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As I said, Relatd, you have no need in your daily life to worry about this at all. The biological sciences manage very well without your input (or mine, for that matter).Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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Fred @ 52: "I allow the possibility that the Creator of the Universe designed the unfolding of the parallel, series and nested environments so that life evolved in all its diversity (and dead ends) due to the over-arching plan of the Creator. Of course that is not a scientific view, nor one that appeals to me personally. I just can’t rule it out." Thanks, Fred. This actually goes back to part of the point of the OP, which relates to whether there is some behind-the-scenes way of driving toward a specific outcome. If we're talking about initial conditions setup, with law-like processes attaining from thence forward, then I think we can rule it out. At least if we're talking about a hands-off approach since the initial conditions setup. (One could of course propose a deep, sophisticated form of front-loading that would play out over time, but that is very different than just an initial conditions setup.)Eric Anderson
June 7, 2022
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Let’s say the first organism could metabolize iron or sulfur. Next, tell me how it could reproduce.
By binary fission, I imagine. RNA can store information, act as catalysts and will self-replicate.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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EA at 66, I'm the first organism. I have no predators. I eat everything around me in my little pool of water. I run out of food. I die.relatd
June 7, 2022
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EA at 65, There is no "climbing Mount Improbable." There are no throws of the dice over millions of years that happen to come up with the right organism in the right environment. In other words, it's the theory of sheer, dumb luck (trying) to hold the whole thing together. Consider: The first organism appears. From where? The lucky combination of dead/inorganic chemicals? Let's say it happens. Now what? Is this organism capable of eating anything around it? How did it acquire the machinery to metabolize anything? How did it acquire the ability to reproduce?relatd
June 7, 2022
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FH at 63, Plants eat sunshine? Is that why they need soil, water and nutrients? Let's say the first organism could metabolize iron or sulfur. Next, tell me how it could reproduce.relatd
June 7, 2022
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Jerry @49: I fully understand what you're saying. You are pointing out a very important aspect of ecology, as well as the fact that the underlying idea of Darwin's theory--a Malthusian fight to the death in the struggle for existence, at all costs, and without consideration for anything else in the biosphere--does not hold up in light of observations. There are very few examples of organisms that reproduce headlong, and even bacteria colonies have controls over when and how much they reproduce. Further, there are many, many examples of cooperative behavior in the biosphere. There are good design-based ways to view this cooperative behavior, as well as the limits to organismal change to keep things within bounds. That's all good. I'm just pressing on the concept of natural selection here, at a fundamental level. Lastly, I appreciate that almost everyone thinks they know exactly what natural selection is. :) My experience is that, when pressed, it is incredibly difficult to come up with any precise definition, and even more difficult to come up with any substantive content to the concept.Eric Anderson
June 7, 2022
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CD @ 45 & 47: Thanks. As to this "interaction between species and their niche environment is the non-random element..." Where is the non-randomness? The environment can, and does, change. Other organisms come and go, climate fluctuates, food sources rise and fall, and on and on. We can't simply proclaim, as a matter of fiat, that an "interaction" means non-random or, as Davies does, that "selection is far from random." Based on what? The only causal mechanism evolution can point to is the environment, which is claimed to exert "pressure" to shape and mold the organism. But the environment is itself an essentially random situation. "I think we are mixing categories. Evolution is a huge umbrella, and we are talking about a very specific part of the process." Are there other non-random causes in evolutionary theory? So far, we don't seem to be getting any traction from natural selection (which was supposed to be the great saving principle to help avoid randomness). Here is part of what I think is going on. A Darwinist will look at a specific environment, in a given moment and say, just to give an example, "The environment has turned colder, so those organisms that can better survive in a colder environment will be more likely to survive. Ta da! The organisms are changing in a non-random manner. Therefore, natural selection provides direction to evolution." But they fail to see that the environment is just another random factor. If we have random mutations, subjected to the random vagaries and hazards of the environment, that just means that we've got another layer of randomness, not that we've avoided it. If we are looking narrowly at only the immediate shift and not the broader picture, we fail to see that it is randomness all the way down. Of course any particular change must go in a particular direction, otherwise it wouldn't be a change! That isn't the issue. The question is whether the changes are leading somewhere--in some identifiable direction toward increased functional capabilities, as Darwin and Dawkins claimed. ----- "Change in phenotype to adapt to a given ecological niche is one of Darwin’s greatest observations. The concept has become so commonplace that we forget how significant this observation was." Let's not overstate Darwin's role here. People have observed for millennia that organisms are well adapted to their environments and that organisms can change in small adaptive ways. Some posited that this was due to their ability to adapt within their created kind. So let's not overstate Darwin's contribution in making this observation. Darwin didn't write a book called, "How Organisms Vary Slightly, but Don't Really Fundamentally Change." No, Darwin was trying to piece together a larger creative narrative from these modest observations. Darwin's claim, Darwin's contribution, if you will, was that he thought he perceived in the mundane observation of small-scale changes some grander story. He claimed that these small-scale changes people had been observing were really a process of the organism turning into a completely different kind of organism. That was Darwin's contribution to the discussion. And that claim, unfortunately, has never been observed or demonstrated. ----- "... “negative selection” ...is completely contingent on the environment available to the population. So, within the larger process of “evolution,” randomness is still a huge part of the game." Agreed. Now what I'm trying to pin down is how this "huge part" of randomness suddenly becomes non-random (as Dawkins, Davies, and others have claimed), just because we slap the label "natural selection" on it. So far, I haven't seen anything at all convincing from anybody on that front. Look, it's OK if it is all randomness. Then evolution can just come clean that it is relying on sheer dumb luck (which, ultimately, it has to do anyway) for all the creative capabilities. The smoke and mirrors is brought in with the idea of natural selection. The idea of natural selection performs two rhetorical functions: (i) it provides a false impression of some creative capacity (anthropomorphizing the environment as a creative agent), and (ii) it effectively distracts people from looking at the underlying causes for the change in the first place. Pronounce that some observed change in the organism occurred because of "natural selection," and people tend to just nod and pat each other on the back and think they've provided some answer to the actual cause of the change. (BTW, it isn't just me, as a critic of evolutionary theory, who has noticed these things. A number of evolutionists have had very frank things to say about the shortcomings of natural selection and even questioning whether it has substantive explanatory value.) Apologies for the lengthEric Anderson
June 7, 2022
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The confusion between the idea that adaptive traits are “selected” and the idea that something is “selected for” its adaptive traits.
Both group selection and selection at the level of the gene have been largely rejected. Modern evolutionary theory has settled on selection acting on individual phenotypes. We don't hear much about extended phenotypes these days, either.Fred Hickson
June 7, 2022
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