Compared to, say, “the man from Mars” in the media who turns out to be just some weird green dude who could have been born in Grand Forks or something. In “How the hunt for Mars life evolved” (MSNBC.com, March 6, 2012), Alan Boyle reports,
“Virtually every mission to the surface of Mars provides no evidence for anything,” Caltech geologist John Grotzinger, project scientist for the Mars Science Laboratory mission, told me. “We don’t expect to see any evidence for anything that might represent macroscopic life. At this point, we understand why that is. With reference to our own planet, if you go to extreme environments on Earth, places like Antarctica … the only things that you would really ever see in these extreme places are microorganisms or other simple organisms, like lichens. We’re not asking something special of Mars, we’re just conditioning our expectations based on analogs to extreme environments here on Earth.
“You put deserts and extreme cold together, and you’re not kidding anybody,” he said. “You know you’re looking for something that’s probably going to be very small and highly specialized, with adaptation to an extreme environment.”
This sounds quite promising, actually. If we narrow our expectations to specifics, we can learn something, whether or not we find what we are looking for.
I have a question. How would finding life on Mars alter Dr. Gonzalez’s Privileged Planet theory?
Thank you!
Well, other than the fact that atheists, for purely philosophical purposes, need life to be ‘out there somewhere’, since, according to atheists, life in this universe is not really all that special, there is no real scientific reason to presuppose even ‘simple’ life to be on Mars. The odds against life spontaneously forming are on any given planet (even one ‘friendly’ to life),, well the odds are ‘astronomical’.
Dr. Don Johnson lays out some of the probabilities for life in this following video:
Moreover, if that was not bad enough, there is now evidence that shows Mars to be ‘toxic’ to simple life for as far back as we can look:
But to further confound things for atheists, even ‘simple life’ does not live in isolation but is interconnected in a complex biogeochemical web that must be maintained/balanced for extended periods of time for any individual ‘simple lifeform’ to exist for any extended period of time:
On the third page of this following site there is a illustration that shows some of the interdependent, ‘life-enabling’, biogeochemical complexity of different types of bacterial life on Earth.,,,
,,,Please note, that if even one type of bacteria group did not exist in this complex cycle of biogeochemical interdependence, that was illustrated on the third page of the preceding site, then all of the different bacteria would soon die out. This essential biogeochemical interdependence, of the most primitive different types of bacteria that we have evidence of on ancient earth, makes the origin of life ‘problem’ for neo-Darwinists that much worse. For now not only do neo-Darwinists have to explain how the ‘miracle of life’ happened once with the origin of photosynthetic bacteria, but they must now also explain how all these different types bacteria, that photosynthetic bacteria are dependent on, in this irreducibly complex biogeochemical web, miraculously arose just in time to supply the necessary nutrients, in their biogeochemical link in the chain, for photosynthetic bacteria to continue to survive. As well, though not clearly illustrated in the illustration on the preceding site, please note that a long term tectonic cycle, of the turnover the Earth’s crustal rocks, must also be fine-tuned to a certain degree with the bacteria and thus plays a important ‘foundational’ role in the overall ecology of the biogeochemical system that must be accounted for as well.
As a side issue to these complex interdependent biogeochemical relationships, of the ‘simplest’ bacteria on Earth, that provide the foundation for a ‘friendly’ environment on Earth that is hospitable to higher lifeforms above them to eventually appear on earth, it is interesting to note man’s failure to build a miniature, self-enclosed, ecology in which humans could live for any extended periods of time.
further notes as to truly ‘searching for life’ out there somewhere;
Quote of interest:
Preceding quote taken from this following video;
Personally, I think the evidence clearly indicates we must look a little higher for life than in the toxic dirt of Mars
Verse and Music:
Well, that doesn’t really answer my question as to how the theory changes if life is found on Mars, but thank you.
Mike LaFontaine and exactly what are your scientific reasons for presupposing life will be found on Mars? i.e. That is a mighty big ‘if life is found’ you are riding your philosophical question on!
How would finding the remnants of an ancient extra-terrestrial civilization on Mars with detailed journals on how they engineered life on earth alter your view?
Bornagain,
I have no opinion either way. But I have heard that organic compounds have been found in comets. So, I was wondering if the privileged planet theory would accommodate some form of organic life being found somewhere other than earth. I can only assume your answer means that the theory does not accommodate that and it doesn’t matter because life won’t be found anywhere other than Earth. Do I read you right?
Mike1962,
I am not sure what you are driving at. I asked the question because I was interested in the answer. I don’t have a clue how to extract an answer from your question.
Mike, that is a fair question. I think the answer is it wouldn’t have an impact on the Privileged Planet theory.
First, the Privileged Planet is predicated largely on the concept of intelligent life — life that can seek, explore, understand. Although some of the conditions Gonzalez and Richards outline may be necessary for any life, they are really focused on intelligent life and how the conditions of our planet facilitate that intelligent life’s discoveries. Thus, finding microscopic extremophiles on Mars would not be particularly germane to their work.
Second, Mars is close enough that there has been a fair amount of exchange of material between the two planets over the millenia. Many scientists think there is a real possibility that material from Earth with living organisms may well have traveled to Mars (just as we have identified Martian material here on Earth). If memory serves I believe Gonzales has discussed this as well.
So finding microscopic life on Mars wouldn’t do much one way or another for the Privilieged Planet theory.
Now if intelligent life similar to us were found on Titan, that would probably throw a wrench into a couple of the planetary characteristics Gonzales and Richards highlight in their book . . .
Mike LaFontaine @6:
See my comments to you in #5. Largely irrelevant to the Privileged Planet. It can accommodate it, and it there may well be extremophiles found elsewhere some day, such as on Mars.
If you are asking a larger question about ID, not just the Privileged Planet theory, we could have that discussion as well.
Sheesh, I meant my comments in #7, not #5. Apologies.
Mike LaFontaine, I think Eric has more than properly addressed your overriding question. But buried within your question is the implicit assumption that life can arise by material processes. For instance you allude to, but don’t cite, organic molecules on comets (amino acids?) to support your implicit assumption. I find it interesting that you would find comfort that life can arise spontaneously just because ‘organic molecules’ are present. Yet what if we allow for an entire universe full of ‘organic molecules’ Mike? Does this help at all you implicit materialistic premise? NO! Once again we find that science itself is against your unstated philosophical premise:
Moreover Mike, as I somewhat alluded to briefly alluded to in post 2, consciousness is found to precede material reality by breakthroughs in Quantum Mechanics. Thus virtually slam dunking a major Theistic premise to empirical validity! So why in blue blazes does any ‘scientist’ even entertain the materialistic/atheistic alchemy of Darwinism anymore?? It simply is ludicrous as far as the science is concerned!!!
As well, as far as ‘organic molecules’ being found on comets, this finding is really not very surprising at all since the heavy elements necessary for life were created in massive, short-lived, mega stars, shortly after the creation of the universe itself and then exploded out into space. The universe is literally seeded from one end to the other with the necessary elements for life. What is surprising is that it is literally a miracle that the elements necessary for life should be formed in short lived mega-stars shortly after the creation of the universe in the first place. The delicate balance at which carbon is synthesized in stars is truly a work of art. Fred Hoyle (1915-2001), a famed astrophysicist, is the scientist who established the nucleo-synthesis of heavier elements within stars as mathematically valid in 1946. Years after Sir Fred discovered the stunning precision with which carbon is synthesized in stars he stated:
Sir Fred also stated:
Further notes:
For the first 400,000 years of our universe’s expansion, the universe was a seething maelstrom of energy and sub-atomic particles. This maelstrom was so hot, that sub-atomic particles trying to form into atoms would have been blasted apart instantly, and so dense, light could not travel more than a short distance before being absorbed. If you could somehow live long enough to look around in such conditions, you would see nothing but brilliant white light in all directions. When the cosmos was about 400,000 years old, it had cooled to about the temperature of the surface of the sun. The last light from the “Big Bang” shone forth at that time. This “light” is still detectable today as the Cosmic Background Radiation.
This 400,000 year old “baby” universe entered into a period of darkness. When the dark age of the universe began, the cosmos was a formless sea of particles. By the time the dark age ended, a couple of hundred million years later, the universe lit up again by the light of some of the galaxies and stars that had been formed during this dark era. It was during the dark age of the universe that the heavier chemical elements necessary for life, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and most of the rest, were first forged, by nuclear fusion inside the stars, out of the universe’s primordial hydrogen and helium.
It was also during this dark period of the universe the great structures of the modern universe were first forged. Super-clusters, of thousands of galaxies stretching across millions of light years, had their foundations laid in the dark age of the universe. During this time the infamous “missing dark matter”, was exerting more gravity in some areas than in other areas; drawing in hydrogen and helium gas, causing the formation of mega-stars. These mega-stars were massive, weighing in at 20 to more than 100 times the mass of the sun. The crushing pressure at their cores made them burn through their fuel in only a million years. It was here, in these short lived mega-stars under these crushing pressures, the chemical elements necessary for life were first forged out of the hydrogen and helium. The reason astronomers can’t see the light from these first mega-stars, during this dark era of the universe’s early history, is because the mega-stars were shrouded in thick clouds of hydrogen and helium gas. These thick clouds prevented the mega-stars from spreading their light through the cosmos as they forged the elements necessary for future life to exist on earth. After about 200 million years, the end of the dark age came to the cosmos. The universe was finally expansive enough to allow the dispersion of the thick hydrogen and helium “clouds”. With the continued expansion of the universe, the light, of normal stars and dwarf galaxies, was finally able to shine through the thick clouds of hydrogen and helium gas, bringing the dark age to a close. (How The Stars Were Born – Michael D. Lemonick)
http://www.time.com/time/magaz.....-2,00.html
Moreover, every class of elements that exists on the periodic table of elements is necessary for complex carbon-based life to exist on earth. The three most abundant elements in the human body, Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, ‘just so happen’ to be the most abundant elements in the universe, save for helium which is inert. A truly amazing coincidence that strongly implies ‘the universe had us in mind all along’. Even uranium the last naturally occurring ‘stable’ element on the period table of elements is necessary for life. The heat generated by the decay of uranium is necessary to keep a molten core in the earth for an extended period of time, which is necessary for the magnetic field surrounding the earth, which in turn protects organic life from the harmful charged particles of the sun. As well, uranium decay provides the heat for tectonic activity and the turnover of the earth’s crustal rocks, which is necessary to keep a proper mixture of minerals and nutrients available on the surface of the earth, which is necessary for long term life on earth. (Denton; Nature’s Destiny). These following articles and videos give a bit deeper insight into the crucial role that individual elements play in allowing life:
Music and Verse:
No, there wasn’t. But far be it for me to stand in the way of a righteous post.
It wouldn’t
bornagain77,
I don’t think Mike LaFontaine’s post came across as implying anything other than an honest question.
On another note. Understand that I agree with much of what you say here on UD, but don’t you think it’s somewhat unnecessary to flood threads with unrelated info? It tends to dilute the topic on hand.
I also suggest this because I enjoy your contributions here on UD and have learned quite a bit from yourself and others, but many times your post consists of reams of unrelated commentary and material in relation to the original post.
I think when folks see line upon line of text and quotes their eyes start to gloss over a bit 🙂 and so many of us simply pass over your post, which is a pity.
In fact your posts are far more informative and when you just address the topic. But that’s just me.
Look I’m not saying don’t post any of it, but sometimes it’s an information onslaught if you know what I mean 🙂 and unfortunately the actual message relating to the topic itself get’s lost.
Anyway, just my thoughts. No ill will intended.
Stu7, I hate to be blunt, but please skip reading my posts if you don’t like them.
All I’m saying is the message and punch of your post sometimes get’s lost in between all the other stuff.
bornagain77
I’ve heard about this before and found it very interesting even though I don’t know much about the topics. I remember reading something about an underlying consciousness in the universe. Can you elaborate more on the topic since I’d really love to know more about it.
The connections between the things bornagain writes, Stu, are there. If you don’t see them, don’t expect him to spoon-feed you. He does have a polymath’s range of interests.
I suffer from just the same problem as you with some other forum posters, but never when I am fascinated by the subject, unless – as sometimes happens with bornagain – it becomes too technical for me to even browse. But I know that’s due to my deficiency, and I don’t need to understand the technical details, since he, himslef, provides a digest.
Well Shogun, the way I found out that consciousness precedes, and is central to, material reality is a bit different from how it was arrived at by from quantum mechanics itself. It all started when Dr. Dembski posted this video on UD a few years back:
,,, I noticed that the earth mysteriously demonstrates centrality in the universe in this video Dr. Dembski posted a while back;
,,,for a while I tried to see if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity was sufficient to explain centrality we witness for the earth in the universe. And indeed, at first glance it appears as if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity is sufficient to explain the centrality we see for ourselves in the universe;
,,,Thus from a 3-dimensional (3D) perspective, any particular 3D spot in the universe is to be considered just as ‘center of the universe’ as any other particular spot in the universe is to be considered ‘center of the universe’. This centrality found for any 3D place in the universe is because the universe is a 4D expanding hypersphere, analogous in 3D to the surface of an expanding balloon. All points on the surface are moving away from each other, and every point is central, if that’s where you live.,,,
,,,yet, I kept running into the same problem for establishing the sufficiency of General Relativity to explain our centrality in this universe, in that every time I would perform a ‘thought experiment’ of trying radically different points of observation in the universe, General Relativity would fail to maintain centrality for the radically different point of observation in the universe. The primary reason for this failure of General Relativity to maintain centrality, for radically different points of observation in the universe, is due to the fact that there are limited (10^80) material particles to work with. Though this failure of General Relativity to provide sufficiency was obvious to me, I needed more proof so as to establish it more rigorously, so I dug around a bit and found this,,,
,,,and even though the preceding pretty much blew a hole in any hope I had for General Relativity sufficiently explaining the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, I also ‘serendipitously’ found the following which further confirmed my suspicions on the inadequacy of General Relativity to maintain our centrality in the universe,,,
,,,But since General Relativity is insufficient to explain the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, what else is? Universal Quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation is! To prove this point I dug around a bit and found this experiment,,,
This following experiment extended the infamous double slit experiment to show that the ‘spooky actions’, for instantaneous quantum wave collapse to ‘uncertain’ particle state, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance in the universe:
Moreover, to make the preceding much more rigorous, I found something that is simply unprecedented in science. I found out that quantum mechanics has advanced to the point that a experiment was preformed that ruled out any future theories surpassing the accuracy of the current Quantum Theory’s predictive power.
Moreover, I’ve found that the ‘Quantum wave packet’, as it is called in its uncollapsed state, is ‘real’ instead of merely abstract, as has been held by many notable figures within quantum mechanics,,
i.e. ,,,It is important to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?
The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to explain quantum entanglement, leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:
bornagain, do you think maybe mathematical logic, any logic, has serious limitations. I mean, it’s not very tolerant, and doesn’t allow for diversity of beliefs. I say it is the tool of preference of hate-filled bigots. Why couldn’t we have a more rainbowy kind of logic.
I think the EU will be pondering this as I write.
continued shogun,, and to make universal Quantum Wave collapse much more ‘personal’ I found this,,,
,,,Here is Wigner commenting on the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries,,,
i.e. In the experiment the ‘world’ (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a ‘privileged center’. This is since the ‘matrix’, which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is ‘observer-centric’ in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.”
As well, Wigner’s work in elucidating consciousness’s central importance in quantum symmetries has now been solidified by other work in quantum mechanics:
Preceding quote taken from this following video;
I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe:
So much for the Copernican mediocrity principle eh?
Moreover the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
Also of related interest is the fact that a ‘uncollpased’ photon, in its quantum wave state, is mathematically defined as ‘infinite’ information:
etc.. etc..
Though there is much more that could be drawn out concerning to relation to temporal and ‘eternal’ time that quantum actions have, hopefully this brief outline gives you a clear enough picture shogun for how consciousness precedes material reality;
Music and verse:
Well, for sure, later editions would have to be renamed, The Pretty Doggon Privileged Planet.
Stu7, you’re not alone, man. We all love ba77, but I’m going to have to send him a bill for a new scrollwheel for my mouse soon! 🙂
Thanks bornagain77 for the posts about quantum theory. It’s more than I expected but I guess there is alot to learn on this field.