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At Mind Matters News: Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty

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In Part 2 of 4, we look at a claim arising from a recent study: We blindly believe those we identify with, ignoring the wisdom of science:

Recently, a paper lamenting the decline of trust in science was discussed at ScienceAlert, a science news site. In representing the paper—doubtless accurately — for a lay audience, the write-up embodies the causes of legitimate public distrust…

We press on. The second point of four raised at ScienceAlert is that tribal loyalty is thought to create distrust in science: “‘Work on cultural cognition has highlighted how people contort scientific findings to fit with values that matter to their cultural identities,’ write Philipp-Muller and colleagues.” …

There seems to be no recognition here that researchers also have a tribal loyalty. The fact that they are fiercely competitive among themselves doesn’t change that. Just as businesses can be fiercely competitive among themselves but band together against unwelcome government regulations, researchers can unite against skepticism of their claims in general.

If the researchers’ response is, “We represent science,” one might ask, “Why, then, was the Wuhan lab origin of COVID-19 treated as a ‘conspiracy theory’ when it was in fact a reasonable hypothesis?” Anyone who has taken the trouble to study the situation will be aware that political considerations made the theory unpopular because — well, for one thing — the United States had been helping to fund the research.

News, “Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty” at Mind Matters News (July 18, 2022)

Sometimes — just sometimes — researchers’ attitudes are themselves the best argument against science one could think of.

Takehome: There seems to be no recognition that researchers, however fiercely competitive among themselves, also have a tribal loyalty that skews their judgment.

The paper, which requires a subscription, is “Why are people antiscience, and what can we do about it?” by Aviva Philipp-Muller, Spike W. S. Lee, and Richard E. Petty, July 12, 2022, PNAS 119 (30) e2120755119
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2120755119

Here are all four parts of the series:

  1. Why many now reject science… do you really want to know? COVID demonstrated — as nothing else could — that the “science” was all over the map and didn’t help people avoid panic. As the panic receded, the U.S. government started setting up a disinformation board to target NON-government sources of panic, thus deepening loss of trust.
  2. Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty. In Part 2 of 4, we look at a claim arising from a recent study: We blindly believe those we identify with, ignoring the wisdom of science. There seems to be no recognition that researchers, however fiercely competitive among themselves, also have a tribal loyalty that skews their judgment.
  3. Researchers: If we tell folks more about science, they trust less. Part 3: The researchers argue that doubts about science arise from conflict with beliefs. The many COVID-19 debacles suggest other causes… Generally, the remedy for loss of trust after widespread failures is reform of the system, not reform of its doubters. Post-COVID, scientists should take heed.

and

  1. Claim: If science were properly presented, trust would grow! The ideas examined in these four short essays all assume that scientists are exempt from the bias and self-interest that governs everyone else. We’re asked to believe that scientists are somehow exempt from the bias problem that they say is ingrained in our biology — yet they have the same biology as everyone else…

119 Replies to “At Mind Matters News: Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty

  1. 1
    relatd says:

    A very sad, very poorly thought out series of articles.

    1) There will never, ever be a truthful and accurate account of the origin of the virus. Only speculation will be allowed.

    The simple answer would be to provide the truthful, with supporting evidence, answer.

    The actual, documented problem is information that shows science is being manipulated, primarily for making money. That’s it. End of story.

    The “bias” idea is just plain wrong. Every scientist, no matter where he works, must show proof of his work. Bias plays no role. He either does the job he was hired for or fails to do so. He won’t be allowed to do further work if he keeps failing to complete projects.

  2. 2
    BobRyan says:

    It is not distrust of science, but distrust of scientists using propaganda over facts. Anyone who brought up herd immunity was demonized. Anyone who said the draconian measures of locking down and wearing masks was attacked. Anyone who challenged the COVID shots was ridiculed.

    Nothing they did was effective. Everything promised to work failed to slow the spread.

    Then there are the side effects of the shot and boosters that were ignored. A lot of healthy athletes in the world died after taking the shots. People continued to get COVID after the shots.

    Now, there is a study showing 91% of fully vaccinated make up the deaths of COVID related illness. It is not the unvaccinated who are at risk, but the vaccinated.

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/fully-vaccinated-account-91-covid-deaths-one-country/

  3. 3
    BobRyan says:

    If we were dealing with real scientists, rather than propagandists, they would have admitted that the cure was far worse than a pretty harmless disease.

  4. 4
    bornagain77 says:

    BobRyan, “It is not distrust of science, but distrust of scientists using propaganda over facts.”

    Bingo! And as you also pointed out, “Nothing they did was effective. Everything promised to work failed to slow the spread.”

    Double Bingo!

    In fact, many times their propagandized ‘science’ actually made things worse. Much worse!

  5. 5
    BobRyan says:

    bornagain77

    That it did, in every metric there is. No one can point to a single thing better in the United States that is better than before things were shut down and people isolated. It never should have happened in the United States.

    Experts across the board were screaming from the rooftops not to do anything, and no one paid attention to their accurate warnings. Herd immunity remains the way to go with any new coronavirus. The science has not changed.

  6. 6
    relatd says:

    BR at 2,

    You totally missed the point. Totally. Either you are selecting facts that only suit you or you are lying. I took the vaccine, people I know took the vaccine. A certain number of people will have a deadly reaction to certain vaccines. Look it up. I totally reject the “politicians are evil” explanation for the lockdowns. Who ordered them? Evil politicians or the CDC in the United States? I have worked in hospital with patients in quarantine. Wearing a mask was nothing new to me. Nothing they did was effective? Really? Based on what? Imagination? The moment the health crisis hit, I automatically began screening the information coming out. That there was a “along party lines polarization” did not surprise me. But I refuse to listen to complete idiots and shills online – not referring to you.

    My doctor was wearing a mask. He recommended I get a specific booster. I suffered no ill effects.

    The unvaccinated are not risk. Wow. Call – I mean it – call an actual doctor and tell him that.

  7. 7
    relatd says:

    BR at 3,

    Millions died. What is your definition of harmless?

  8. 8
    relatd says:

    BR at 5,

    You literally don’t know what you’re talking about.

  9. 9
    relatd says:

    Ba77 at 4,

    You also have no idea what you’re talking about.

  10. 10
    bornagain77 says:

    “You also have no idea what you’re talking about.”

    My fairly severe* adverse reaction to the ‘vaccine’ begs to differ.

    (*My arm was so sore that I could not work for two days. all for a vaccine that is now known to be ineffective)

    Of note:

    John West Explains Why Discovery Institute Will Start Speaking Up About Science Totalitarianism Around COVID
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/john-west-explains-why-discovery-institute-will-start-speaking-up-about-science-totalitarianism-around-covid/

  11. 11
    asauber says:

    Relatd throws “doctor” out there and all contention must cease. lol 😉

    Andrew

  12. 12
    relatd says:

    Ba77 at 10,

    We’re talking about a global spread. Taking into account that some people can have a severe adverse reaction to a flu shot, given every year, does not invalidate the usefulness of flu shots. I’d post the numbers for the virus in question but I’m not sure you’d accept them as factual.

  13. 13
    asauber says:

    “some people can have a severe adverse reaction to a flu shot, given every year, does not invalidate the usefulness of flu shots”

    Flu shots don’t work for everybody to begin with, so the usefulness of a particular shot depends on particular cases.

    Andrew

  14. 14
    relatd says:

    So, I’m starting to see the big picture: Government! Government! Government! The eeevil-bad Government.

    OK. The government lied, all the restrictions were useless-wrong, and they all happened. Can SOMEONE tell everyone, in detail, why all of the lockdowns, masks, and vaccinations happened? Give us the specifics so everyone can understand. Not ‘doctors, heh, heh, heh… Wink, wink, nod, nod.’

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    Of note:

    Jan. 2022 – For example, it is fact, not fiction, that the government’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has had more adverse reaction reports filed for the COVID-19 vaccines than for any other vaccine since VAERS started collecting data in 1990. Indeed, as of mid-January, 55 percent of all adverse reactions, 59 percent of all hospitalizations, and 71 percent of all deaths reported to VAERS are from the COVID-19 vaccines. What these data mean is subject to legitimate differences of opinion. But the fact that the data exist is unquestionable. Yet if you spend much time discussing VAERS in social media or on YouTube, you are likely to be banned.
    – John West, “ –
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/john-west-explains-why-discovery-institute-will-start-speaking-up-about-science-totalitarianism-around-covid/

    Question: Are you still wearing your mask??? ,,, there is help for you, 🙂

    Addicted To Masks? Maskers Anonymous Can Help
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBsCHDdi_O4

  16. 16
    relatd says:

    Ba77 at 15,

    So that’s it, eh? What are you going to do about it? Do the math. Hundreds of millions of jabs were given out. If those numbers are true, what is anyone going to do about it?

    By the way, when hospitals were full, when automobile companies were making ventilators, when nurses had to improvise because they could not get enough protective clothing – NONE of that happened? I worked in hospital. I never had to wear protective clothing around anyone dying from an adverse reaction to anything.

    And if the vaccine is KNOWN to be ineffective then how did these adverse reactions occur? Again, I did not need protective clothing around people who were dying from an adverse reaction to anything.

    I’m still wearing my mask. Oh yes. Because my doctor wore a mask. Because conventions in the United States are demanding the wearing of masks and showing proof of vaccination. Look them up. ALL of them.

    Let me guess – I’m speculating – this is the eeeeeevil government’s way of disposing of people. The eeeeevil government wants lots of people dead. Just shooting them in the street would be… uh… too obvious?

  17. 17
    bornagain77 says:

    Relatd, ‘I did not need protective clothing around people who were dying from an adverse reaction to anything.’

    If it makes you happy, keep wearing your mask, I don’t care. But I’ll be damned if I let an idiot from the government give me another ‘vaccine’ shot.

  18. 18
    relatd says:

    Ba77 at 17,

    Then move to a country where shots aren’t required.

  19. 19
    bornagain77 says:

    The 2nd amendment says that I’m in the right country where shots aren’t required!
    🙂

  20. 20
    relatd says:

    Ba77 at 19,

    Then sue them all. Go ahead. 🙂 You realize you can cross a busy freeway without looking both ways? I would never recommend it.

    Something else I would never recommend: going without masks in public places and going without vaccines.

  21. 21
    vividbleau says:

    I think it was about a year ago when Joe Biden said, if my memory is correct, something like if your vaccinated you won’t get Covid or be able to transmit the virus.

    Here is Dr Birx just recently
    “I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against infection. And I think we overplayed the vaccines. And it made people then worry that it’s not going to protect against severe disease and hospitalization. It will, but let’s be very clear — 50% of the people who died from the Omicron surge were older, vaccinated.”

    She also said that regarding the” 15 days to slow the spread” that she knew at the time they were going to extend that indefinitely, it was just a prequel. Also in her book she basically said that the six feet social distancing and the recommendation that gatherings should be limited to 10 basically was pulled out of her ass.

    Vivid

  22. 22
    relatd says:

    Vb at 21,

    So, go ahead, give us the motivations for this – obvious to certain people – hoax. Come on.

    More vaccines are coming. More boosters are coming. Another vaccine is coming that will knock out all variants. Other medications are in the works. So TELL THE WHOLE WORLD what will happen RIGHT NOW according to whoever. You know, save lives by trashing vaccines. I mean if you don’t say anything now then all this will just continue.

  23. 23
    vividbleau says:

    “You know, save lives by trashing vaccines”

    You do know they are not vaccines?

    “So, go ahead, give us the motivations for this – obvious to certain people – hoax”

    Hey I just laid out a couple of facts about how we were mislead care to comment?

    “So, go ahead, give us the motivations for this – obvious to certain people – hoax. Come on.”

    The usual most obvious suspects, power and money. Pretty simple really.

    Vivid

  24. 24
    relatd says:

    Vb at 23,

    The vaccines are not vaccines? What are they? What is their actual purpose? I request links to credible sources. Why was anyone misled? If a crime was committed, the police need a motive. Why did the evil government do this? Be specific.

    If not, nothing you say will change anything. Almost everyone I know got the vaccine. The handful who did not caught the virus, were ill for a number of days and recovered.

    Do you think by posting here that you will convince anyone of anything? Proof. Evidence. Credible information. Not Dr. Brix. Because, you know, according to a few here, you can’t trust doctors.

  25. 25
    relatd says:

    So nobody is willing to be specific. I guess I’ll have to do it.

    The Government lied !!!

    Lockdowns were unnecessary !!! All those people in the U.S. collecting EXTRA unemployment? I sure did.

    Vaccines kill people !!! Hey, if you’re going to release vaccines, make sure at least HALF of the people DIE !!!

    It was about killing people !!! Elderly people !!! And people with “underlying conditions.” The vaccines were DESIGNED primarily to kill them !!!

    So, how to stop all this? Hide in your underground bunker and work from there. If the government can’t find you they can’t FORCE you to get a vaccine or wear a mask or stand six feet away from people !!! Hurray !!!

    Did I miss anything?

    Here’s reality:

    I and everyone I know will get the next booster. We will continue to follow CDC (as opposed to the evil, power-hungry government) guidance. And that’s that. Nothing changes for most people until a medication that protects against all variants appears.

  26. 26
    vividbleau says:

    “The vaccine against smallpox is a live-attenuated vaccine; whereas, the vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 are nucleic acid or viral-vectored.”

    I assume you got the small pox vaccine along with many others, how many people do you know got small pox after getting vaccinated for small pox or polio after getting the polio vaccine?

    Vivid

  27. 27
    vividbleau says:

    “Why did the evil government do this? Be specific.”

    I was specific, power and money.

    Vivid

  28. 28
    vividbleau says:

    “We will continue to follow CDC”

    Is that the same CDC that gave bad advice about natural immunity LOL ?

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/06/10/gop-rep-massie-cdc-giving-bad-advice-on-vaccines-for-those-with-prior-covid-infection/

    Vivid

  29. 29
    relatd says:

    Vb at 26 and 27,

    I collected all of the information I could about how each vaccine was formulated. You believe something I don’t believe.

    Power and money? That’s a zero content explanation. Everything the wealthy do is about power and money. If this is the best you can do then no one has specific information about this particular event, just don’t take the vaccines. I guarantee – nothing will change. It will end when it ends.

    I don’t believe you. Think what you wish.

  30. 30
    vividbleau says:

    “If this is the best you can do then no one has specific information about this particular event, “

    I know the drug companies are making a boatload of money, I know that the government restricted peoples freedom and gained more power, what else do I need to know?

    “I don’t believe you.”

    What don’t you believe? Is it you don’t believe what Birx said? What Biden said? That the Covid vaccine is not like the small pox and polio vaccines? That the CDC gave out bad advice on natural immunity? That probably no one you know got small pox or polio after getting vaccinated?

    Vivid

  31. 31
    Silver Asiatic says:

    During a July 2021 CNN town hall, U.S. President Joe Biden stated that “You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”

    President Joe Biden tested positive for COVID-19 Thursday morning July 21, 2022

  32. 32
    relatd says:

    SA at 31,

    And so did non-politicians around the world.

  33. 33
  34. 34
    Silver Asiatic says:

    LCD

    True. You have to go to alternative media just to get basic facts. Quick searches on Bitchute or Rumble are enough to expose what is going on.

  35. 35
    BobRyan says:

    If the shots were so effective, why does the UK have 91% of COVID related deaths from “vaccinated”?

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/fully-vaccinated-account-91-covid-deaths-one-country/

  36. 36
    BobRyan says:

    Doctors who wear masks, switch them out every four hours, at the latest. They get tossed in with hazard material. Where are the hazmat bins?

    Anyone who actually does research know states and countries that did nothing handled it the best.

    There is also Birx admitting to faking numbers to make things look far worse than they were. She also made it clear she believed the shots would do nothing to stop the spread.

  37. 37
    BobRyan says:

    Masks were never going to work. The only thing they do is place numerous things close to the nose to be breathed in. Those things, when worn longer than four hours, are breeding grounds for all sorts of nasty things.

    Besides the nasty stuff that people inhale, coronaviruses do not only enter the body through the nose and mouth. They also enter through the eyes. That is why they were never going to work. Why no mention of face shields, which are more sanitary and effective?

    There was also the fact that Wuhan is a major city with an international airport. By the time it was discovered in October of 99, it already spread throughout the world. Where were the global deaths? It never happened.

    Even altered by the CCP for purposes of becoming a bio-weapon, COVID is so benign it failed. There were no floating cruise ships filled with elderly that became morgues.

    COVID, even with the changes made in a lab, is not an equal opportunity killer, like influenza. There must already be a weakened host for it to become deadly. Healthy people never had anything to fear from COVID.

    Herd immunity, like what happened in states like South Dakota, worked. By not shutting down and quarantining healthy people, they had fewer deaths, suicides, ODs, homeless, etc. People carried on their lives the same way every state and federal government should have.

    All those promised deaths were projected, not actually occurring. In order for America to have those deaths, numbers were rigged in favor of COVID. Influenza was treated like it suddenly disappeared. They added those, and all sorts of other causes to make the numbers higher than they actually were.

  38. 38
    relatd says:

    BR at 37,

    “… numbers were rigged…” Please expose the reasons for the numbers being rigged. And, what are you going to do about it? Everything that happened happened. It can’t be undone. Look at international travel which was badly affected by demands for testing and quarantine.

    I would be very careful about making statements like the following:

    “Healthy people never had anything to fear from COVID.”

    That is not accurate based on people I know who actually got it. Your reference to a “bio-weapon” is a serious charge. Where is your evidence?

  39. 39
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: If the shots were so effective, why does the UK have 91% of COVID related deaths from “vaccinated”?

    Because a) the vaccines don’t prevent you getting an infection but they help your body fight it off better than they would have if not previously primed and b) as the proportion of vaccinated people in a population grows the number of those who die from the disease and are vaccinated becomes a higher proportion of those who die. Think of it this way: let’s suppose in a given population you have 100% vaccination rates. But some people still don’t fight off the disease and die. In that case 100% of the deaths will be from the vaccinated population.

    The point that the article you cite doesn’t make is that the proportion of COVID deaths amongst the vaccinated is lower than the proportion of deaths amongst the unvaccinated.

    There are actually lots of online discussions of this seeming contradiction which you could have easily found but didn’t bother to look.

    https://www.factcheck.org/2021/11/scicheck-why-its-easy-to-misinterpret-numbers-of-deaths-among-the-vaccinated/

    https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/11/fact-check-in-uk-fully-vaccinated-are-82-percent-of-covid-19-deaths-and-66-percent-of-hospitalizations-but-percentages-dont-tell-full-story.html

    https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2022/04/fact-check-high-vaccination-rate-explains-why-92-of-english-covid-deaths-are-among-fully-vaccinated.html

    The CDC says that, as of Dec. 4, the weekly COVID-19 death rate among unvaccinated adults was 9.74 per 100,000 population, and the rate was 0.1 per 100,000 population for people 18 and older who were fully vaccinated with a booster dose.

    https://www.factcheck.org/2022/02/scicheck-latest-cdc-data-unvaccinated-adults-97-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-19-than-boosted-adults/

    What most people do when they read something that sounds a bit dodgy or weird is to try and fact check it. You just bought it hook, line and sinker.

  40. 40
    relatd says:

    There are at least two narratives here – both opposed to each other. And a third. I’ll speculate on that:

    If the virus is a bio-weapon then it was designed to kill a given portion of the population. It will be over when it’s over, not before.

  41. 41
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: Herd immunity, like what happened in states like South Dakota, worked. By not shutting down and quarantining healthy people, they had fewer deaths, suicides, ODs, homeless, etc. People carried on their lives the same way every state and federal government should have.

    Go to: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ Click on the top of Deaths/1M pop column to arrange the US states in descending deaths per 1 million people order. South Dakota comes in at 23 so in the top half. The District of Columbia which has a vastly higher population density did much better.

    Perhaps you should check your stats a bit more.

  42. 42
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau: That probably no one you know got small pox or polio after getting vaccinated?

    Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen though.

    From Wikipedia:

    The inactivated polio vaccines are very safe. Mild redness or pain may occur at the site of injection. Oral polio vaccine results in vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis in about three per million doses. They are generally safe to give to those who are pregnant, and those who have HIV/AIDS, but who are otherwise well.

    Inactivated polio vaccine can cause an allergic reaction in a few people since the vaccine contains trace amounts of antibiotics, streptomycin, polymyxin B, and neomycin. It should not be given to anyone who has an allergic reaction to these medicines. Signs and symptoms of an allergic reaction, which usually appear within minutes or a few hours after receiving the injected vaccine, include breathing difficulties, weakness, hoarseness or wheezing, heart rate fluctuations, skin rash and dizziness.

    cVDPV cases outnumbered wild polio cases for the first time in 2017. A potential, adverse effect of the OPV is its known ability to recombine to a form that causes neurological infection and paralysis.[27] This genetic reversal of the pathogen to a virulent form takes a considerable time (at least 12 months) and does not affect the person who was originally vaccinated. The vaccine-derived attenuated virus is normally excreted from vaccinated people for a limited period. Thus, in areas with poor sanitation and low vaccination coverage, the spontaneous reversal of the vaccine-derived virus to a virulent form and its spreading in the environment can lead to unvaccinated people becoming infected. Clinical disease, including paralysis, caused by vaccine-derived poliovirus (VDPV) is indistinguishable from that caused by wild polioviruses. Outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP), caused by a circulating vaccine-derived poliovirus (cVDPV), have been reported, and tend to occur in areas of low coverage by OPV, presumably because the OPV is itself protective against the related outbreak strain. With wild polio cases at record lows, 2017 was the first year where more cases of cVDPV were recorded than the wild poliovirus, a trend that is expected to continue.

    To combat this, the WHO in 2016, decided to switch from the trivalent polio vaccine to the bivalent polio vaccine. This vaccine no longer contains the type 2 polio virus because it was eradicated in 1999.

    Nothing is ever 100% safe or effective. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or lying.

    By the way, research on mRNA vaccines started well before COVID-19 arrived on the scene:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRNA_vaccine

  43. 43
    relatd says:

    How about travel requirements? From the U.S. Department of State:

    https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/covid-19-travel-information.html

  44. 44
    asauber says:

    “Nothing is ever 100% safe or effective. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or lying.”

    And sometimes its not 90 or 80 or 50 percent. So whomever decided to mandate a chemical injection for everyone knew they were forcing people who it wouldn’t work as advertised for.

    Andrew

  45. 45
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 44,

    You have a clear bias. You are talking nonsense. Stop it before I write your favorite word again – doctor. Doctor, doctor, doctor…

  46. 46
    asauber says:

    “You have a clear bias. You are talking nonsense.”

    Relatd,

    I don’t think so. I think you’re just whining because you can’t admit being wrong.

    Andrew

  47. 47
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 46,

    You are just whining. Example: They put a gun to my head !!! They strapped me down !!! And FORCED me to get a VaCcInE. Wah ! Wah ! And so on…

  48. 48
    asauber says:

    “They put a gun to my head !!! They strapped me down !!! And FORCED me to get a VaCcInE. Wah ! Wah ! And so on…”

    Relatd,

    I never commented any of those things. Go see your doctor. You are experiencing hallucinations. I’m sure there is some kind of chemical they can inject you with for it.

    Andrew

  49. 49
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 48,

    I will tell “them” where you are and how much you like vaccines…

    🙂

  50. 50
    JVL says:

    Asauber: And sometimes its not 90 or 80 or 50 percent. So whomever decided to mandate a chemical injection for everyone knew they were forcing people who it wouldn’t work as advertised for.

    Are you sure? No respected authority in the UK said it would stop anyone from catching COVID, just that it would reduce the symptoms. And they admitted that its efficacy wasn’t completely known but, after a shorter than usual trial period, it looked very, very effective and safe.

    Surely you know how vaccines work? They prepare the body to fight off a future exposure to a virus but they don’t stop you from catching that virus. They can’t stop you from catching the virus. That’s not possible unless you live in a bubble.

    And, I have to say, that any reasonably intelligent person probably knew how vaccines worked and what they could and couldn’t do. And if they didn’t know then they could find out. You seem to be saying that: the stupid people were lied to and didn’t figure it out and so were hood winked. The data and info has always been available for anyone who wanted to look for it. Some public officials, no doubt, made statements that were not completely correct. Some of them are a bit dopey and they make mistakes. Oh well.

    Just because sometimes there are government conspiracies to cover up and hide things (Watergate, the Iran Contra Affair, the Profuma affair, etc) doesn’t mean everything is a government conspiracy.

  51. 51
  52. 52
    asauber says:

    “any reasonably intelligent person probably knew how vaccines worked and what they could and couldn’t do”

    JVL,

    Any how do we tell if great masses of people we’ve never met knew how vaccines worked?

    Andrew

  53. 53
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 52,

    What is wrong with you? Did you go door to door? “Hello. Do you know how vaccines work?”

    I’m guessing not. I can see your overblown frustration through my computer screen.

    Why do you assume “great masses” are stupid or incapable of finding out?

  54. 54
    JVL says:

    Asauber: Any how do we tell if great masses of people we’ve never met knew how vaccines worked?

    Is that really the point? Are you going to judge the authorities and the scientists based on how the great masses of people, who have access to the internet and tons of data and reports and such, reacted? Is that your criteria? It sounded to me that you were judging the truth based on what the common perception was. That doesn’t sound very sound to me.

    What is actually accurate and our best knowledge based on the evidence we have? Should we base that on what some news source says? Should we base that on what some politician says? Should we base that on some blog post or youtube video? Perhaps we should, at least, look at the actual data as has been produced by the medical professionals and scientific practitioners and modellers who are looking at the real results based on real studies and proper surveys. Is that a controversial or suspect position to take?

    Shall we, you and I, take a stand for real data and real results, knowing that they are always provisional and subject to change because new data always comes in? And shall we agree to consider all of the data that is available, to not give undue preference to any particular study over all the other information?

    Is that not the logical and scientific approach?

  55. 55
    asauber says:

    “Is that really the point?”

    JVL,

    You brought it up as a point. I’m just asking if the point is evidential or is it just assumed.

    Andrew

  56. 56
    asauber says:

    “David Kessler, chief science officer of the White House COVID-19 Response Team and a former FDA Commissioner, said that despite the historic feat of delivering 784 million doses (of which 601 million have been administered), there is consensus in the scientific community about the next steps.

    “We need vaccines with longer duration and greater breadth of protection,” he said.

    “We don’t know how this virus may continue to mutate and come back in a stronger form,” Kessler added.”

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fauci-on-needing-a-second-generation-of-covid-vaccines-we-have-multiple-variants-of-concern-and-it-s-getting-more-complicated/ar-AA100e7g?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=06b262737dc048f18f81d97c2672b99d

    So despite the effective jab that you know works well, you’ll need yet more different jabs. Huh.

    Andrew

  57. 57
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 56,

    That’s the plan. However, a multi-variant vaccine is in the works.

  58. 58
    asauber says:

    “That’s the plan.”

    Relatd,

    Seems like it. Let me know how it goes.

    Andrew

  59. 59
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 58,

    Read the rules on international travel. Read the rules for going to any convention in the U.S. Read the rules for kids in schools. Trust me, I won’t tell you about them myself.

    I’m not in charge of the operation.

  60. 60
    vividbleau says:

    JVL

    Vividbleau: That probably no one you know got small pox or polio after getting vaccinated?

    “Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen though.”

    JVL you are so predictable. In over 50 years I do not know anyone that was vaccinated for small pox or polio who contracted polio or small pox. Contrast that with the double vaxed COVID shot, I know of at least 20!!How many people do you know personally that got polio or small pox after their vaccination?

    Vivid

  61. 61
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    2018: “The next deadly disease that will cause a global pandemic is coming, Bill Gates said on Friday at a discussion of epidemics.” 😆 Enough said.

  62. 62
    BobRyan says:

    Name a single country or state that locked down and had success? The only thing it did was destroy the global economy.

    Vaccines, unlike flu shots, prevent most people from getting a given virus. It takes at least a decade to develop. 3 years for animal testing, and 7 for human. Most do not make it past the human testing phase.

    Did a rushed program with new technology stop anything? No. People who get the shots still get the disease. It is not a vaccine. Vaccines work.

    Here is an actual breakdown by state. You do not find higher deaths per capita. They also did not have all the negative things that happened in states that shut down, like suicides and ODs.

    https://www.americanexperiment.org/states-that-stayed-open-fared-much-better-than-states-that-shut-down/

  63. 63
    BobRyan says:

    Most sites include influenza in their numbers to amp up the deaths. It is one of many comorbidities that leads to death in all but a few cases.

    Here is a breakdown from the CDC that shows comorbidities. Towards the bottom is a chart that shows only 1% of deaths are only COVID. Everything else has at least 1.

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/clinical-care/underlyingconditions.html

  64. 64
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau: JVL you are so predictable. In over 50 years I do not know anyone that was vaccinated for small pox or polio who contracted polio or small pox. Contrast that with the double vaxed COVID shot, I know of at least 20!!How many people do you know personally that got polio or small pox after their vaccination?

    I don’t know any but I posted a quote explaining that it does happen with the oral polio vaccine at a rate of about 3 per 1 million doses so it’s not surprising that I don’t know anyone. And yes, I was a child in the early 60s and had my initial polio vaccine on a sugar cube or in a paper cup like many people did. I also received another dose in the 90s before travelling to a part of the world where polio was still prevalent based on the advice of the CDC and my (then) local health care provider. It cost me $5. I didn’t get ill or get polio either time.

    You seem to have a very simplistic notion that all vaccines have or should have the same efficacy rates and chances of side effects, etc. This is clearly not the case and if you really wanted to learn about such things you could easily look it up. But you don’t, preferring to rely on anecdotes and personal experiences. Why don’t you look at the actual data instead? Are you worried that your beliefs might be challenged or even disproven? The scientific approach is to look at all the challenges to your ideas and see if they stay standing after that. Maybe you should try that.

  65. 65
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: Here is a breakdown from the CDC that shows comorbidities. Towards the bottom is a chart that shows only 1% of deaths are only COVID. Everything else has at least 1.

    As the page you linked to clearly says:

    This webpage provides an evidence-based resource for healthcare professionals caring for patients with underlying medical conditions who are at higher risk of developing severe outcomes of COVID-19. Severe outcomes of COVID-19 are defined as hospitalization, admission to the intensive care unit (ICU), intubation or mechanical ventilation, or death.

    People with underlying medical conditions are much more likely to get tipped over the edge if they get COVID-19 is the point.

    We continue to learn more about the risk factors for severe COVID-19 outcomes. Although age is the strongest risk factor for severe COVID-19 outcomes, patients with certain underlying medical conditions are also at higher risk. The more underlying conditions a person has, the higher the risk for severe COVID-19 outcomes.

    Age remains the strongest risk factor for severe COVID-19 outcomes. Approximately 54.1 million people aged 65 years or older reside in the United States; in 2020, this age group accounted for 81% of U.S. COVID-19 related deaths. As of May 23, 2022 (CDC COVID Data Tracker), the proportion of deaths in this group was more than 42 times than those aged 30-39 years. In 2020, residents of long-term care facilities made up less than 1% of the U.S. population but accounted for more than 35% of all COVID-19 deaths.

    None of this is surprising and would be true for many, many other diseases: if you already have some problems getting another one is much more likely to kill you than if you were otherwise healthy. That makes perfectly good sense. And guess which population group has the most pre-existing or underlying problems? The elderly.

    Also, you were wrong about the 1%. The 1 you noticed (as is clearly said in the chart heading) is the death risk ratio for people with no conditions.

    The whole point of this publication is to point out that physicians and medical professionals should be aware that certain groups (especially the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions) are much more likely to have serious symptoms or death if they catch COVID-19. You didn’t fully read the statements and you mis-interpreted a chart and then twisted your impressions to fit your own pre-existing condition/bias.

  66. 66
    relatd says:

    LCD at 61,

    I have put Bill Gates on “ignore.”

  67. 67
    relatd says:

    BR at 62,

    Do you think billionaires don’t know what they’re doing? Now, in the U.S., so-called “inflation” is vacuuming money out of out wallets. Companies are making record profits. They want that extra money we got from the frying pan-schmemik back in their hands.

    Regarding the rest of your comments, the needle on my Prop-O-Ganda meter kept going into the red. Quit posting crap.

  68. 68
    BobRyan says:

    It was the CDC giving accurate data on deaths, with 1% of those who died having nothing else. The elderly, which we knew about, were the ones at greatest risk. So shut down the world and bring on a shot that is not a vaccine for everyone?

    Vaccines prevent people from getting a virus, like polio and smallpox. Inoculations are for things like influenza. You can get influenza with or without a shot. It helps most and causes influenza in a few. They all have the virus targeted in them.

    COVID does not, which is why it fails.

    Dr. Scot Atlas tried to tell President Trump not to lock down the country. We should be going for herd immunity. He is the biggest expert in the field and ignored. He listened to Fauci.

    Birx admitted that she lied and altered numbers to make things appear worse than they actually are to bring on shots that would do nothing. She and Fauci both knew they were ineffective.

    MRNA is a relatively new technology. It is believed to tremendous potential, including curing cancer. It will be years of legitimate testing before we know for certain. Dr. Robert Malone co-created the mRNA shot and made clear it should not be used.

    Rather than listen to one of the few people in the world who knows what they are talking about, he was ignored. They wanted a test on the general population without even a year of testing. COVID was used as an excuse to test the world.

  69. 69
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: It was the CDC giving accurate data on deaths, with 1% of those who died having nothing else.

    You have a right to be incorrect. Again, both graphs/charts at the bottom of the paper you cited are clearly labelled “Death Risk Ration (RR)” which is why they numbers given don’t add up to 100. Or hadn’t you noticed that. If you can even read a clear and simple heading then why should anyone listen to your interpretations? Are you too much of a coward to go back and look again and admit you were wrong?

    So shut down the world and bring on a shot that is not a vaccine for everyone?

    Some very young people died and some middle-aged people. And a lot of people are still suffering from Long Covid which the vaccines also seem to help with. You do know that there was a real risk that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was going to die in hospital with COVID? He, himself, admitted it, on air. He’s in his 50s and helped push out vaccinations across the UK starting with the most vulnerable: the elderly. If an idiot like Boris Johnson can get that right why can’t you?

    Vaccines prevent people from getting a virus, like polio and smallpox. Inoculations are for things like influenza.

    Sigh. From Wikipedia:

    Inoculation is a set of methods of artificially inducing immunity against various infectious diseases. The terms “inoculation”, “vaccination”, and “immunization” are often used synonymously, but there are some important differences among them. Inoculation is the act of implanting a disease inside a person or animal, vaccination is the act of implanting or giving someone a vaccine specifically, and immunization is what happens to the immune system as a result

    Anyway, a vaccine does not stop you from getting infected; it ramps up the immune system so it’s ready to fight off an infection.

    Dr. Robert Malone co-created the mRNA shot and made clear it should not be used.

    Again, easily found on Wikipedia:

    While Malone promotes himself as an inventor of mRNA vaccines, credit for the distinction is more often given to the lead authors on the major papers he contributed to (such as Felgner and Wolff), later advances by Katalin Karikó and Drew Weissman, or Moderna co-founder Derrick Rossi. Ultimately, mRNA vaccines were the decades-long result of the contributions of hundreds of researchers, including Malone. The New York Times, in an article about Malone, reported: “While he was involved in some early research into the technology, his role in its creation was minimal at best, say half a dozen Covid experts and researchers, including three who worked closely with Dr. Malone.”

    Also:

    In early 2020, during the COVID-19 pandemic, Malone was involved in research into the heartburn medicine famotidine (Pepcid) as a potential COVID-19 treatment following early observational data suggesting that it may have been associated with higher COVID-19 survival. Malone, then with Alchem Laboratories, suspected famotidine may target an enzyme that the virus (SARS-CoV-2) uses to reproduce, and recruited a computational chemist to help design a 3D-model of the enzyme based on the viral sequence and comparisons to the 2003 SARS virus. After encouraging preliminary results, Alchem Laboratories, in conjunction with New York’s Northwell Health, initiated a clinical trial on famotidine and hydroxychloroquine. Malone resigned from Alchem shortly after the trial began and Northwell paused the trial due to a shortage of hospitalized patients.

    With another researcher, Malone successfully proposed to the publishers of Frontiers in Pharmacology a special issue featuring early observational studies on existing medication used in the treatment of COVID-19, for which they recruited other guest editors, contributors, and reviewers. The journal rejected two of the papers selected: one on famotidine co-authored by Malone and another submitted by physician Pierre Kory on the use of ivermectin. The publisher rejected the ivermectin paper due to what it stated were “a series of strong, unsupported claims” which they determined did “not offer an objective nor balanced scientific contribution.” Malone and most other guest editors resigned in protest in April 2021, and the special issue has been pulled from the journal’s website.

    Starting in mid-2021, Malone received criticism for propagating COVID-19 misinformation and conspiracy theories, including making claims about the toxicity of spike proteins generated by some COVID-19 vaccines; using interviews on mass media to popularize medication with ivermectin; and tweeting a study by others questioning vaccine safety that was later retracted. He said that LinkedIn temporarily suspended his account over a post stating that the Chairman of the Thomson Reuters Foundation was also a board member at Pfizer, and other posts questioning the efficacy of some COVID-19 vaccines. Malone has also falsely claimed that the Pfizer–BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines could worsen COVID-19 infections, and that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had not granted full approval to the Pfizer vaccine in August 2021. Malone has promoted hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin as COVID-19 treatments. In November 2021, Malone shared a deceptive video on Twitter that falsely linked athlete deaths to COVID-19 vaccines. In particular, the video suggested that Jake West, a 17-year-old Indiana high school football player who succumbed to sudden cardiac arrest, had actually died from COVID-19 vaccination. However, West had died years earlier, in 2013, due to an undiagnosed heart condition. Malone deleted the video from his Twitter account after receiving a cease-and-desist letter from West’s family. Malone later said on Twitter that he did not know the video was doctored. On December 29, 2021, Twitter permanently suspended Malone from its platform, citing “repeated violations of our COVID-19 misinformation policy”, after he shared on that platform a video about supposed harmful effects of the Pfizer vaccine. In an April 1, 2022 interview, Malone made the unfounded claim that COVID-19 vaccines are “damaging T cell responses” and “causing a form of AIDS”. Malone claimed that he had “lots of scientific data” to back up his claim, but did not cite evidence.

    On December 30, 2021, Malone claimed on The Joe Rogan Experience podcast that “mass formation psychosis” was developing in American society in its reaction to COVID-19 just as during the rise of Nazi Germany. The term mass formation psychosis is not found in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, is not based on factual medical information, and is described by Steve Reicher, a professor of social psychology at the University of St Andrews, as “more metaphor than science, more ideology than fact.” Clips of the podcast episode were removed by YouTube from their platform for violating the site’s Community Guidelines. 270 physicians, scientists, academics, nurses and students wrote an open letter to Spotify complaining about the content of the podcast. On January 3, 2022, Congressman Troy Nehls entered a full transcript of The Joe Rogan Experience interview with Malone into the Congressional Record in order to circumvent what he said was censorship by social media.

    Malone has spoken at anti-vaccine and anti-vaccine-mandate rallies, including a January 2022 rally in front of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. and a March 2022 rally in Santa Barbara, California.

    As of April 2022, Malone has more than 134,000 subscribers on his Substack subscription newsletter. According to media research firm Zignal Labs, Malone has been mentioned more than 300,000 times on social media, cable television, and print or online news outlets.

    So, your opinion comes from Dr Malone himself and maybe only from Dr Malone. Have you bothered to read any of the criticism of Dr Malone? Have you looked at any of the actual data about the efficacy of the COVID-19 vaccines? It seems not.

  70. 70
    relatd says:

    BR at 68,

    Test the world for what? A biological weapon? China had no role?

    Don’t make me take out my Prop-O-Ganda meter.

  71. 71
  72. 72
    Seversky says:

    What is the Catholic position on capitalist profiteering?

  73. 73
  74. 74
    BobRyan says:

    Did any of the measures taken, including the most draconian, stop anything? Nothing governments did stopped it from spreading.

    MRNA should still be in animal testing, since it takes at least three years to figure out how to make it work. Then another 7 for human testing, which is where most fail. Every so often there is news about a potential breakthrough with AIDS that never comes to light.

    Why the rush? MRNA is believed to hold the key to curing all sorts of things. COVID was an excuse to see what happens when tested on mass population, rather than go through the lengthy process of proper testing. It should still be animal research, not human.

    Anyone who took the shots is a human test subject. As for Wikipedia being a source, it fails. Anyone can change anything. There is a difference between inoculations, like influenza and vaccines.

  75. 75
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: Did any of the measures taken, including the most draconian, stop anything? Nothing governments did stopped it from spreading.

    The virus is transmitted via close contact between people so limiting the number of close contacts slows down the spread and helps the medical community keep up with the cases. All this was very clearly explained and understood in the UK at least. Besides, it’s just common sense.

    MRNA should still be in animal testing, since it takes at least three years to figure out how to make it work. Then another 7 for human testing, which is where most fail.

    The mRNA vaccine did go through some human testing and was seen to be incredibly effective and incredibly safe so the governments of the world decided that it was in everyone’s interest to fast-track the process and get people vaccinated so fewer would die and the hospitals would not be overrun with patients. As it was many hospitals ran out of ventilators and PPE.

    COVID was an excuse to see what happens when tested on mass population, rather than go through the lengthy process of proper testing. It should still be animal research, not human.

    You are so paranoid and without any kind of evidence.

    Anyone who took the shots is a human test subject. As for Wikipedia being a source, it fails. Anyone can change anything. There is a difference between inoculations, like influenza and vaccines.

    I welcome you to find a mistake or error (backed up by evidence) in any of the material I posted. And the Wikipedia article SAID there was a difference between inoculations and vaccines. You can read can’t you?

  76. 76
    ET says:

    96% of the US Climate Data is Corrupted!!!

    Corrupted Data via Faulty weather station locations

  77. 77
    asauber says:

    If anyone thinks there are some governing institutions who wouldn’t ever fudge numbers to make themselves look better is hopelessly stupid.

    Andrew

  78. 78
    JVL says:

    Asauber: If anyone thinks there are some governing institutions who wouldn’t ever fudge numbers to make themselves look better is hopelessly stupid.

    An opinion is not the same as evidence that it actually happened. Evidence first.

  79. 79
    asauber says:

    “An opinion is not the same as evidence that it actually happened. Evidence first.”

    JVL,

    Is your contention that no government institution ever fudged any numbers? Let’s start there to see if we can actually have a discussion.

    Andrew

  80. 80
    JVL says:

    Asauber: Is your contention that no government institution ever fudged any numbers? Let’s start there to see if we can actually have a discussion.

    Of course they do! But, in any given situation, you have to first show that they did in that case.

    Look, we know some conspiracies have happened. Anyone, like me, who lived through Watergate and the Iran Contra debacle knows this. That doesn’t mean every situation is a planned lie. You still have to find the evidence. And you have to look at ALL the evidence before you come to a conclusion. Not just the stuff that supports your view.

  81. 81
    relatd says:

    BR at 74,

    That did it. Stop the narrative. OK? Your unsupported nonsense is nonsense.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

    Unfortunately, due to your enthusiasm, you have won the 2022 Manure Spreader Award, which is now on its way to you.

  82. 82
    vividbleau says:

    JVL

    “You seem to have a very simplistic notion that all vaccines have or should have the same efficacy rates and chances of side effects, etc. “

    Ahhh no! Perhaps you have mistaken me for Joe Biden?

    July 25, 2022 at 6:00 pm
    During a July 2021 CNN town hall, U.S. President Joe Biden stated that “You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”

    He also said that if you got the jab you could not give it to anyone else.

    BTW did the CDC immediately come out and tell the public that Biden was wrong? Did WHO? Did the NHS? Did Birx, who from her own lips knew what she was saying about the Covid jab was not accurate? Did Fauci? Did they immediately come out and tell the public that he was wrong about transmissibility ?

    “This is clearly not the case and if you really wanted to learn about such things you could easily look it up. But you don’t, preferring to rely on anecdotes and personal experiences. Why don’t you look at the actual data instead? “

    Are you actually saying that I need to look up some study before I conclude that the polio and small pox vaccines / inoculations were more effective than the Covid jab? That’s bonkers!

    “Are you worried that your beliefs might be challenged or even disproven?

    There is no chance that my belief regarding the efficacy of the polio and small pox vax are more effective than the Covid jab and unlike you I don’t need Wikipedia to do my thinking for me. The same Wiki I might add that just changed the definition of what is a recession. I have enjoyed a very very long career in the financial sector and over my lifetime what defines a recession has been 2 quarters of declining GDP growth. This is a perfect example of gaslighting and the full blown adoption of the ideology that truth is made not found.

    Vivid

  83. 83
    BobRyan says:

    How about going back to the beginning of when COVID was first noticed. It was October of 2019 by Dr. Li, who was a doctor in Wuhan. Wuhan is a major city with an international airport.

    The BBC and others reported that Dr. Li noticed what appeared to be SARS and spoke out about it. No one was looking for SARS and the CCP disagreed, so they sent police to threaten him until he recanted.

    Just because it was first noticed in October of 2019, does not mean it was not already there. How long did it take before anyone noticed the symptoms? How far had COVID already spread with an international airport?

    Just because we know the origin does not mean we know how long it was out in the world. How many infected left Wuhan before October of 2019? No one in China was looking for SARS.

    Most people who have COVID do not even know they have it due to either no or mild symptoms. Only a small percentage develop serious symptoms.

    Why shut down for something that is already in the general populace? Why rush new technology, which is what mRNA is? Why ignore the normal ten years of testing that happens with vaccines?

    Drug companies and the CDC, along with others said it was safe. Without testing, how do they know what the long-term effects are? Other than the promise that it was safe, there was no data to prove it was safe. In less than a year, it was already out and being used on the world. Something that should still be in the animal testing phase was promised as safe by people who could not know it was.

    Then there was taking the shots for those who took the shot. People who took it were told they would not get COVID if they took it. If the shots prevented others from getting COVID, how does my not taking it have any impact on those who have taken it? If it only effects me, why would there be pressure?

    Then we were told that anyone who took the shot needed more shots. We were told that it was a vaccine, which does not require more than one. Polio does not need additional boosters. Vaccines are a one and done.

    There were also the increasing numbers of people who took the shot that got COVID. Seems like everyone who takes the shot gets something they were told they would not get.

    Throughout it all, naturally immunity has been scoffed at. I will take my natural immunity over a rushed shot any day. My immunity has been tried and tested, unlike the shots.

    All of this for something no one knows exactly when the virus first left Wuhan on that international airport and other modes of transportation. We shut down much of the world for something that was already in the world.

  84. 84
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau:

    I would say that President Biden got that statement wrong. I think he should have said: if you get these vaccines then if you catch COVID your symptoms should be reduced or non-existent. And he should have said that your viral load will be much lower so that you’d be much less likely to give it to some one else.

    I recently tested positive for COVID-19 and was told by my employer to stay away for five days even though I’ve had three vaccinations. Because I can still give it to someone else. My symptoms were minor to non-existent.

    BTW did the CDC immediately come out and tell the public that Biden was wrong? Did WHO? Did the NHS? Did Birx, who from her own lips knew what she was saying about the Covid jab was not accurate? Did Fauci? Did they immediately come out and tell the public that he was wrong about transmissibility ?

    You’re implying they didn’t. I have no idea since I don’t follow all the US news. I think they should have.

    Are you actually saying that I need to look up some study before I conclude that the polio and small pox vaccines / inoculations were more effective than the Covid jab? That’s bonkers!

    I’m saying that it’s easy enough to find information about how vaccines vary considerably in their efficacy. Some are only 60% effective while others are in the high 90s.

    There is no chance that my belief regarding the efficacy of the polio and small pox vax are more effective than the Covid jab and unlike you I don’t need Wikipedia to do my thinking for me.

    Wikipedia doesn’t tell me how to think but it does provide some baseline information that I can then follow-up to help me make up my mind.

    The same Wiki I might add that just changed the definition of what is a recession. I have enjoyed a very very long career in the financial sector and over my lifetime what defines a recession has been 2 quarters of declining GDP growth. This is a perfect example of gaslighting and the full blown adoption of the ideology that truth is made not found.

    I am not an economist but was it the case that the economic community changed its definition of a recession and that Wikipedia was just reflecting that change?

    Again, Wikipedia is just a source that’s free and easy to access. And I just use it as one source of information that hopefully will provide me with references that I can check out.

  85. 85
    JVL says:

    from https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/recession.asp

    A recession is a significant, widespread, and prolonged downturn in economic activity. Because recessions often last six months or more, one popular rule of thumb is that two consecutive quarters of decline in a country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) constitute a recession.

    Economists including those at the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), which dates U.S. business cycles, define a recession as an economic contraction starting at the peak of the expansion that preceded it and ending at the low point of the ensuing downturn.

    Recessions typically produce declines in economic output, consumer demand, and employment. The NBER considers indicators including nonfarm payrolls, industrial production, and retail sales, among others, in designating the start and end of U.S. recessions, usually months after the peak and trough of the business cycle.

    So it looks like there are different benchmarks and definitions of a recession.

  86. 86
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: How about going back to the beginning of when COVID was first noticed. It was October of 2019 by Dr. Li, who was a doctor in Wuhan. Wuhan is a major city with an international airport.

    What is your evidence that it was first noticed in October 2019?

    Just because it was first noticed in October of 2019, does not mean it was not already there. How long did it take before anyone noticed the symptoms? How far had COVID already spread with an international airport?

    It was noticed because people were getting very ill. If it had been widespread before it was noticed in China then it would have been noticed someplace else when people started getting really ill. People DID get really ill, that’s why it was noticed!! You keep saying it’s just a minor thing but you admit people were getting very ill.

    Most people who have COVID do not even know they have it due to either no or mild symptoms. Only a small percentage develop serious symptoms.

    The percentage varies. And, remember, even some young children and teenagers have died. And many people are now suffering from Long COVID.

    Why shut down for something that is already in the general populace? Why rush new technology, which is what mRNA is? Why ignore the normal ten years of testing that happens with vaccines?

    Your argument depends on your contention that COVID was already widespread which you have not provided any evidence of. Again, the accepted version is that COVID was noticed and reported in December 2019 in China. Please give us evidence that there is another story.

    Without testing, how do they know what the long-term effects are?

    It was tested!! True that it wasn’t tested over a long period of time but people were dying. And, guess what, after more than a year of vaccinations there doesn’t seem to be huge numbers of lingering after effects. And if you think there are then please provide the evidence.

    People who took it were told they would not get COVID if they took it. If the shots prevented others from getting COVID, how does my not taking it have any impact on those who have taken it? If it only effects me, why would there be pressure?

    They should have been told that their body would have a better chance of fighting the virus if they got vaccinated. That’s how vaccinations work, you should know that. You can get COVID more than once as has been clearly documented. AND, even if you are vaccinated, you can still catch the virus (it happened to me recently) and you can still pass it on (I was told to stay home for five days) BUT your symptoms are much less and you are less likely to pass it on. But you still can.

    Then we were told that anyone who took the shot needed more shots. We were told that it was a vaccine, which does not require more than one. Polio does not need additional boosters. Vaccines are a one and done.

    There is a lot of evidence that even the Polio vaccines effectiveness tapers off. When I went travelling in Central America (in the early 90s) I was advised (by the CDC and my local health authority) to get a Polio booster, Which I did.

    There were also the increasing numbers of people who took the shot that got COVID. Seems like everyone who takes the shot gets something they were told they would not get.

    Everyone? Really? I’ve had three vaccination and only got a sore patch on my arm. As did many people I know. Some felt a little poorly for a day or so. But that’s better than the full blown COVID symptoms if you aren’t one of the lucky ones who suffers a lot. To the point of death for some.

    Throughout it all, naturally immunity has been scoffed at. I will take my natural immunity over a rushed shot any day. My immunity has been tried and tested, unlike the shots.

    Some people aren’t as lucky as you. And some people died.

    You are not a medical expert. There are lots of people who have spent years and years dealing with viral pandemics. I’ll take their words over yours I think.

  87. 87
    JVL says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_efficacy

    Vaccine efficacy or vaccine effectiveness is the percentage reduction of disease cases in a vaccinated group of people compared to an unvaccinated group. For example, a vaccine efficacy or effectiveness of 80% indicates an 80% decrease in the number of disease cases among a group of vaccinated people compared to a group in which nobody was vaccinated. When a study is carried out using the most favorable, ideal or perfectly controlled conditions, such as those in a clinical trial, the term vaccine efficacy is used. On the other hand, when a study is carried out to show how well a vaccine works when they are used in a bigger, typical population under less-than-perfectly controlled conditions, the term vaccine effectiveness is used.

    Vaccine efficacy was designed and calculated by Greenwood and Yule in 1915 for the cholera and typhoid vaccines. It is best measured using double-blind, randomized, clinical controlled trials, such that it is studied under “best case scenarios.”

    Vaccine efficacy studies are used to measure several important and critical outcomes of interest such as disease attack rates, hospitalizations due to the disease, deaths due to the disease, asymptomatic infection, serious adverse events due to vaccination, vaccine reactogenicity, and cost effectiveness of the vaccine. Vaccine efficacy is calculated on a set population (and therefore is not a constant value when counting in other populations), and may be misappropriated to be how efficacious a vaccine is in all populations.

    And the very important point is made: a vaccine may not be 100% effective but if it’s safe then getting the vaccine is better than getting a full-blown version of the disease.

    Also, from the article on Polio:

    The second polio virus vaccine was developed in 1952 by Jonas Salk at the University of Pittsburgh, and announced to the world on 12 April 1955. The Salk vaccine, or inactivated poliovirus vaccine, is based on poliovirus grown in a type of monkey kidney tissue culture (vero cell line), which is chemically inactivated with formalin. After two doses of inactivated poliovirus vaccine (given by injection), 90 percent or more of individuals develop protective antibody to all three serotypes of poliovirus, and at least 99 percent are immune to poliovirus following three doses.

    Subsequently, Albert Sabin developed another live, oral polio vaccine. It was produced by the repeated passage of the virus through nonhuman cells at subphysiological temperatures. The attenuated poliovirus in the Sabin vaccine replicates very efficiently in the gut, the primary site of wild poliovirus infection and replication, but the vaccine strain is unable to replicate efficiently within nervous system tissue. A single dose of Sabin’s oral polio vaccine produces immunity to all three poliovirus serotypes in about 50 PERCENT of recipients. Three doses of live-attenuated oral vaccine produce protective antibody to all three poliovirus types in more than 95 percent of recipients. Human trials of Sabin’s vaccine began in 1957, and in 1958 it was selected, in competition with the live vaccines of Koprowski and other researchers, by the US National Institutes of Health. Licensed in 1962, it rapidly became the only polio vaccine used worldwide.

    So, even the vaunted polio vaccine is not more than 50% effective after one dose!! How many did you have when you were a child? Do you remember? Was it more than one? Probably.

  88. 88
    vividbleau says:

    JVL

    “I would say that President Biden got that statement wrong.”

    That’s the understatement of the year.

    “I am not an economist but was it the case that the economic community changed its definition of a recession and that Wikipedia was just reflecting that change?”

    You mean the Biden economic community, the community that said inflation was transitory.

    JVL here is what is going on. All of us are swimming in a polluted sea of lies so and we are left adrift to sort out facts vs fiction. However the liars do not see their lies as lies because of the ideology they embrace. Much has been written about the importance of truth on this site but to the left, like many here , truth is made not found. Truth was made not found by asserting that a man can be a women, two quarters of negative GDP is not the technical definition of a recession, I could go on forever. Bottom line narrative makes something true to the postmodern lefty deconstructionist. The lies become the truth.

    JVL please take the red pill

    Vivid

  89. 89
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau: You mean the Biden economic community, the community that said inflation was transitory.

    Like I said, I’m not an economist but I did post a quote from an investment website which gave at least one other definition of recession from the National Bureau of Economic Research. It seems that there are different ways of looking at it and if the NBER are suspect then please explain why.

    JVL here is what is going on. All of us are swimming in a polluted sea of lies so and we are left adrift to sort out facts vs fiction. However the liars do not see their lies as lies because of the ideology they embrace. Much has been written about the importance of truth on this site but to the left, like many here , truth is made not found. Truth was made not found by asserting that a man can be a women, two quarters of negative GDP is not the technical definition of a recession, I could go on forever.

    For the record, I have changed my mind about the man vs woman issue. It wasn’t me who came up with a different definition of recession, I just found one and posted it. That’s not a lie that’s just pointing out that there is more than one definition.

    JVL please take the red pill

    I’m good thanks.

  90. 90
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, a recession is a long enough dip in GDP etc, as part of aperiodic economic oscillations. For many decades, it has been statistically recognised and a consensus that two quarters — half a year — of decline is a reliable sign of recession. You do not DEFINE a recession, you recognise it and its statistical signs. There are political newspeak games being played. As for the CV19 story, they will one day be the poster child for how respect for science was foolishly sacrificed for political expediency, and at what cost. KF

  91. 91
    ET says:

    I have not received a COVID-19 or a flu vaccine. I have not been sick with covid. It’s been two decades since I was sick from the flu. Pauling was right. Illnesses like those can be traced to vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Shame on the people in power for not educating the masses.

  92. 92
    vividbleau says:

    JVL

    “ It seems that there are different ways of looking at it and if the NBER are suspect then please explain why.”

    No there is not two ways of looking at it a recession has always been defined as two quarters of GDP decline and has been defined that way since the 1950s. As I stated previously my business is trading the stock market . I have been doing it for 48 years. For 48 years a recession has been defined as a decline for two consecutive quarters. There has never been in my lifetime a recession that was not defined in that way.

    Take the red pill

    Vivid

  93. 93
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau: No there is not two ways of looking at it a recession has always been defined as two quarters of GDP decline and has been defined that way since the 1950s. As I stated previously my business is trading the stock market . I have been doing it for 48 years. For 48 years a recession has been defined as a decline for two consecutive quarters. There has never been in my lifetime a recession that was not defined in that way.

    From: https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2022/07/21/how-do-economists-determine-whether-the-economy-is-in-a-recession/

    (Yes, that’s The White House!)

    What is a recession? While some maintain that two consecutive quarters of falling real GDP constitute a recession, that is neither the official definition nor the way economists evaluate the state of the business cycle. Instead, both official determinations of recessions and economists’ assessment of economic activity are based on a holistic look at the data—including the labor market, consumer and business spending, industrial production, and incomes.

    The National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) Business Cycle Dating Committee—the official recession scorekeeper—defines a recession as “a significant decline in economic activity that is spread across the economy and that lasts more than a few months.” The variables the committee typically tracks include real personal income minus government transfers, employment, various forms of real consumer spending, and industrial production. Notably, there are no fixed rules or thresholds that trigger a determination of decline, although the committee does note that in recent decades, they have given more weight to real personal income less transfers and payroll employment.

    Here’s a link to the National Bureau of Economic Research laying out their definition:

    https://www.nber.org/news/business-cycle-dating-committee-announcement-january-7-2008

    Which reads, in part:

    The committee places particular emphasis on two monthly measures of activity across the entire economy: (1) personal income less transfer payments, in real terms and (2) employment. In addition, we refer to two indicators with coverage primarily of manufacturing and goods: (3) industrial production and (4) the volume of sales of the manufacturing and wholesale-retail sectors adjusted for price changes. We also look at monthly estimates of real GDP such as those prepared by Macroeconomic Advisers (see http://www.macroadvisers.com). Although these indicators are the most important measures considered by the NBER in developing its business cycle chronology, there is no fixed rule about which other measures contribute information to the process.

    The chair of the NBER is John Lipsky:

    John Lipsky is the Peterson Distinguished Scholar at the Kissinger Center for Global Affairs, and a Senior Fellow of the Foreign Policy Institute, both at Johns Hopkins University’s Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). Previously, he served a five-year term as the International Monetary Fund’s First Deputy Managing Director. Prior to his IMF term, Mr. Lipsky was Vice Chairman of the JPMorgan Investment Bank, after serving as JPMorgan’s Chief Economist. Currently, Mr. Lipsky is Co-Chair of the Aspen Institute’s Program on the World Economy, a Director of the Center for Global Development, and of the American Council on Germany and an Advisory Board member of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research (SIEPR). Mr. Lipsky is a life member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and received a PhD in economics from Stanford University.

    I would think that you would be aware of the official US government policy. Oh well.

  94. 94
    JVL says:

    ET: Pauling was right. Illnesses like those can be traced to vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Shame on the people in power for not educating the masses.

    Well, for the second or third time (for various topics) I was going to argue against ET but I have to admit he has a damn good point.

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-supplements-vitamins-what-we-know

    As he says, it’s all about deficiencies and not getting extra which can be dangerous if you do it to excess. There are caveats in the article about not knowing for sure with COVID-19 but the discussion about general cases is good.

    Here’s a particular quote which definitely supports ET:

    In September, researchers from Hospital Del Mar in Barcelona reported that among 249 patients studied, those who survived COVID had higher zinc levels in their plasma (an average of 63.1 mcg/dl) than those who died (43mcg/dl).

    Anyway, he’s got a point and I’m honestly admitting it and will argue on his side on this one.

  95. 95
  96. 96
    vividbleau says:

    Brian Deese,”Two negative quarters of GDP growth is not the technical definition of recession.”

    Deese, 2008: “Economists have a technical definition of recession, which is two consecutive quarters of negative growth.”

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/07/29/nancy-pelosi-acknowledged-technical-definition-recession-2008/

    Just a few words that liberals have redefined:
    “recession”
    “woman”
    “vaccine”
    “democracy”
    “healthcare”
    “racist”
    “mostly peaceful” https://t.co/XINob7S6in

    Vivid

  97. 97
    relatd says:

    BR at 83,

    Your comments are unsupported. Please stop giving out medical advice.

    “WE” is the wrong word. World leaders, world governments ordered shutdowns – not we

  98. 98
    relatd says:

    Vivid at 96,

    You have discovered the work of the Global Cabal of Relabelers and Repackagers. Take existing words and change their meanings. Invent new words and terms to create the illusion that people are living “in the future.”

  99. 99
    vividbleau says:

    JVL
    “I would think that you would be aware of the official US government policy. Oh well.”

    You made me spill my coffee, take the red pill JVL

    Vivid

  100. 100
    vividbleau says:

    “In May, Chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers Cecilia Rouse said during a CNN interview that “Typically, economists date a recession as being at least two quarters of negative growth, and other factors, which we have not seen at all.”

    Biden’s economic adviser Jared Bernstein also described a recession as “two consecutive quarters of declining growth” in an op-ed provided to Foreign Affairs.

    The president’s economic adviser Heather Boushey also cited the “rule of thumb” in a paper that “two quarters of negative growth in GDP” means the economy is in a recession.

    Source Breitbart

    https://twitter.com/rncresearch/status/1553068799167008775?s=21&t=KgHtAGjmNcaJzXcJO07ilw

    Obama, Clinton and Tim Geitner also defined a recession in those terms as well.

    Vivid

  101. 101
    ET says:

    JVL:

    Here’s a particular quote which definitely supports ET:

    In September, researchers from Hospital Del Mar in Barcelona reported that among 249 patients studied, those who survived COVID had higher zinc levels in their plasma (an average of 63.1 mcg/dl) than those who died (43mcg/dl).

    Anyway, he’s got a point and I’m honestly admitting it and will argue on his side on this one.

    And according to the medical books, humans should have a minimum of 72 mcg/dL. 72 – 142 is the range. And according to a peer reviewed paper, zinc acetate, is the zinc that prevents covid from replicating. And a zinc ionophore is required. Green tea contains EGCG, which is an ionophore and an antioxidant. Quercetin is also a zinc ionophore.

    Vitamin D levels should be 40ng/mL – 70 ng/mL

  102. 102
    relatd says:

    ET at 101,

    I would caution you against giving medical advice, including a specific type of treatment.

  103. 103
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, to observe regarding facts of experience and linked concerns is not doing medicine sans licence. Let me be specific, for years I have realised that a certain dosage of Garlic oil is helpful for me in dealing with colds [given my atopic condition]. I am aware of vitamin and mineral deficiency issues, esp D and C, D having been tied to adverse CV19 outcomes. When I recently had what seems a mild case, I did that, Zn was not then to be had. On evidence including Uttar Pradesh and the D wave, I also took IVM. All of the above helped, and for the moment I seem to have natural immunity given a cluster linked to the district where I just dealt with multiple funerals. All of this can be derided as anecdotes or fringe opinion, but that is part of the issue with the OP, the so called mainstream has undermined its own credibility. We are going to regret consequences of how things have been handled in recent years, medical, policy, law, government, politics. KF

  104. 104
    BobRyan says:

    Dr. Li was the first to say anything about SARS. The CCP forced him to recant. He noticed in October of 2019.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30382-2/fulltext

    https://www.sapiens.org/culture/li-wenliang-nationalism/

    How many left Wuhan for other parts of China and the world before he noticed? How many left between the time he noticed and when he was forced to recant?

    Wuhan is a business center that gets global traffic, including Americans.

    COVID needs comorbidities in all but very few cases. Last winter we were told there was no influenza, yet there is always influenza. Influenza was added to the CDC numbers.

    Dr. Birx admitted she knew all along the shots would do nothing about COVID.

    https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/dr-deborah-birx-i-knew-shots-would-not-prevent-covid-infection/

  105. 105
    vividbleau says:

    JVL
    “For the record, I have changed my mind about the man vs woman issue.”

    In what way?

    Vivid

  106. 106
    vividbleau says:

    Bob
    “Wuhan is a business center that gets global traffic, including Americans.”

    Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that Italy did a lot of business in Wuhan and that’s why the country got blitzed early on.The Lombardy region suffered the worst outbreak in Europe.

    Vivid

  107. 107
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau: In what way?

    I am now in favour of calling any human who can or did produce eggs a woman or female for medical and physical purposes.

    I heard an interview with a woman doctor who pointed out that after puberty there were lots and lots of physical characteristics that can never be changed via surgery or hormones. Most of us don’t need to be told if an individual is male or female because of some of those characteristics.

    I don’t mind using female pronouns when referring to someone who is trans-female; I think I can do that without addressing the physical issues, just like I can call a woman Miss or Mrs or Ms or Dr or whatever they prefer. Did you know there was a female King of Sweden? The Swedes decided it was a non-sex title.

    Anyway, the interview I heard also pointed out that some of the male characteristics would always give an advantage in sporting events but I still think it’s up to the athletes to decide. I assume that most women athletes do not want to compete against a trans-woman and I’d hope that the majority opinion would be respected. It was also pointed out that there are few if any trans-men who want to compete in the male events. No surprise there.

    It was also pointed out that woman do not want men in some places because they want to be able to be safe at times. I hadn’t really thought about that before and it was pointed out that a lot of abuse had happened which I hadn’t realised completely.

    Anyway, I don’t care if people of the age of consent want to go through cosmetic surgery to make themselves look more like the sex they were not born as but parts of their bodies will still show physical signs of their genetics. So, because they transition cannot be complete then I think genetically and medically the person should be labelled according to their genetics. Socially I couldn’t care less what people want to look like or dress or be addressed as.

  108. 108
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: The CCP forced him to recant. He noticed in October of 2019.

    Again, even the stuff you linked to says he noticed and reported people being ill in DECEMBER of 2019 NOT October. I don’t know why you keep insisting on October.

  109. 109
    relatd says:

    BR at 104,

    Stop the narrative. Just stop it.

  110. 110
    vividbleau says:

    JVL re 107

    Personally very gratified that you changed your mind, speaks very well of you.

    Vivid

  111. 111
    BobRyan says:

    JVL

    It was October. The CCP covered it up for as long as they could. December is when it broke to the world. That was two months after it was first noticed.

    When did it begin? How long until it was noticed? How many infected were already in the world before China admitted the truth?

    SARS hides. There is nothing that really screams out that it is SARS. Dr. Li just happened to notice there were clusters of elderly that were dying, rather than younger people.

    Time is fixed. Viruses cannot go back in time. Discovery always follows outbreak. There is no way to know when that outbreak happened. Impossible to know how long it was in the world. SARS is not some great killer, like influenza. It requires a weakened host to get to the lungs.

    Every SARS outbreak showed the same thing. An increase in elderly dying without others, including children.

    The only way to get the numbers they used based on what is known about SARS, is if other things are included and deaths given to COVID that would otherwise be contributed to those other things. Influenza was included in the deaths.

    As for that shot, they are finding increased deaths from those who took it. There are also additional health problems being discovered.

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/study-covid-shots-linked-increase-overall-deaths/

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/zogby-many-got-covid-shots-diagnosed-brand-new-condition/

  112. 112
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: It was October. The CCP covered it up for as long as they could. December is when it broke to the world. That was two months after it was first noticed.

    Again, what evidence or data do you have that persuades you it was first noticed in October 2019? I’ve asked you several times now and you just keep repeating that it’s true without justifying the claim.

  113. 113
    BobRyan says:

    JVL

    I can admit when I am wrong. It was December when he noticed. I was going off memory. October is what I came up with as the latest the outbreak could have happened in Wuhan.

    In order for the clusters to form that got Dr. Li’s notice, at least two months is needed. It was clusters over time; not seeing everything happening in a single day.

    Given the time it takes to kill the elderly, which is what Dr. Li noticed, could it have been any shorter than two months?

    Regardless of when, it still begs the question of how many people left Wuhan for the world once COVID hit? Release and deaths do not happen on the same day with SARS.

  114. 114
    BobRyan says:

    vividbleau

    It is not just Italy, but other countries as well. That region was hit hard. Everyone had already become infected who was going to be. Did the lock-downs do anything?

    They did, just not what they were hoping. Staying inside in close proximity made things worse. People need to get outside for the benefits of the sun. Fresh air is a good thing.

    People all over the world were isolated and alone. Human contact, not online, is needed. Isolation causes depression, which weakens the immune system.

    Before Italy shut down and forced people into their homes, how many had already left for other countries?

    The day people infected with COVID left Wuhan was the day it spread to the world. Symptoms do not show right away. You cannot stop a spread that has already happened. But can make things worse, which is what governments around the world did.

    Closing businesses harmed more than the economy. For some, that was the only socializing they did. Taking that away led to suicides.

    People who were comfortable and did not worry about bills lost everything. They were also among the increased suicides.

    Shutting down places where people unwind, like bars, increased violence at home. Being stuck in the same place for too long brings serious mental health issues.

    Women who would have left their abusers were forced to stay with them. It was more important to prevent them from leaving, than being safe. Women and children were murdered.

    People who were told to stay home was given time, which led to increased alcohol and drug abuse. People have been drinking themselves to death and ODing in record numbers.

    Those masks people were told to wear inside and outside are bio-hazards. They get set in bio-hazard containers after they are used by doctors and nurses. They also switch them out, when having to wear them longer, every four hours. Any longer and bacteria starts to grow.

    I have seen plenty of people told to wear a mask, but never heard anyone tell them to get bio-hazard bins. We know they need to be replaced every four hours, yet no one says that.

    How much bacteria are on those masks people still wear?

    Masking children and social distancing was reckless. Children do get serious symptoms from COVID. Masking, social distancing and keeping children at home harmed their growth. Children learn to speak by watching lips move. That cannot be done with masks. Speech impediments are a problem. Along with depression from not being around other children.

  115. 115
    BobRyan says:

    No one has yet to say why the COVID shots are safe. MRNA is band new. There has been no long term studies where it has been used on people. How does anyone know they are safe?

    It takes ten years to develop vaccines. Most pass the animal testing phase, which lasts at least three years. The vast majority do not get past the human testing that takes seven years. Just because something works in animals, does not mean it works in humans. That is why every few years exciting news breaks about AIDS vaccines being right around the corner. They get it to work on animals, but have yet to get it to work on people.

    No one can say they are safe. No one knows. It has not been out long enough to know anything.

    The bird flu shots in the 70s was supposed to be safe. Everyone said it was. More people died of the shots than the flu.

    Without proper testing that cannot be rushed, no one knows what will happen to those who take it. The human testing phase is happening. It is being tested on the population of the world without being told the truth.

    No one knows if it is safe or not. We know it stops nothing from spreading and data does prove people are more likely to die after getting the shot than those who do not. There are also side effects that are not being called side effects.

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/study-covid-shots-linked-increase-overall-deaths/

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/zogby-many-got-covid-shots-diagnosed-brand-new-condition/

  116. 116
    relatd says:

    BR at 114,

    Stop the useless speculation. Just stop it. You rambling on about what should have been done amounts to nothing. Zero. And you commenting on people’s mental states can have a negative effect on others who might believe you. Keep that in mind.

  117. 117
    relatd says:

    BR at 115,
    Seriously? Where the hell do you get vour information from? Certainly from nowhere and no place credible.

    “No one has yet to say why the COVID shots are safe.”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

    – AND –

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/recs/grade/covid-19-pfizer-biontech-etr.html

    If you keep posting crap you will be called on it.

  118. 118
    BobRyan says:

    Going back to the 70s, the bird flu was promised to be safe. It killed more people than the bird flu. Going back, experts told us eugenics was valid science. Despite the experts in both cases claiming something to be true, they lied.

    How can ten years of testing be forced into less than a year? That is a valid question. It cannot be done.

    How does anyone know what the long term effects are? It has not been around long enough to know. Just because government experts claim something is true, does not make it true.

    Show me the ten+ year study. According to the College of Physicians of Philadelphia:

    “Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years, and involves a combination of public and private involvement.”

    https://historyofvaccines.org/vaccines-101/how-are-vaccines-made/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

    Is it only long and complex with everything other than COVID? They did not even have a years worth of research. The first phase of vaccine development is animal, which takes at least three years.

    They skipped all traditional testing, including animal. How do they know how safe it is without the proper testing science requires?

    That is not propaganda, but scientific fact.

    The propagandists are the ones telling us it is safe. The same ones who said if you took the shots, you would not get COVID. They had no idea what would happen, but guaranteed people would not get it.

    These were the same people who still push masks that do nothing to stop something airborne. Airborne viruses, like influenza, enters through the mouth, nose and eyes. Why were face-shields not pushed? They protect everything, unlike the masks.

    A lot of questions that should be asked that are not.

  119. 119
    BobRyan says:

    There is also the question of when the outbreak first occurred. When was it? How long before Dr Li noticed the clusters? How many clusters did he notice over what time frame?

    Unless asking about origin of COVID is propaganda. Last I checked, that was scientific inquiry.

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