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At Mind Matters News: Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty

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In Part 2 of 4, we look at a claim arising from a recent study: We blindly believe those we identify with, ignoring the wisdom of science:

Recently, a paper lamenting the decline of trust in science was discussed at ScienceAlert, a science news site. In representing the paper—doubtless accurately — for a lay audience, the write-up embodies the causes of legitimate public distrust…

We press on. The second point of four raised at ScienceAlert is that tribal loyalty is thought to create distrust in science: “‘Work on cultural cognition has highlighted how people contort scientific findings to fit with values that matter to their cultural identities,’ write Philipp-Muller and colleagues.” …

There seems to be no recognition here that researchers also have a tribal loyalty. The fact that they are fiercely competitive among themselves doesn’t change that. Just as businesses can be fiercely competitive among themselves but band together against unwelcome government regulations, researchers can unite against skepticism of their claims in general.

If the researchers’ response is, “We represent science,” one might ask, “Why, then, was the Wuhan lab origin of COVID-19 treated as a ‘conspiracy theory’ when it was in fact a reasonable hypothesis?” Anyone who has taken the trouble to study the situation will be aware that political considerations made the theory unpopular because — well, for one thing — the United States had been helping to fund the research.

News, “Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty” at Mind Matters News (July 18, 2022)

Sometimes — just sometimes — researchers’ attitudes are themselves the best argument against science one could think of.

Takehome: There seems to be no recognition that researchers, however fiercely competitive among themselves, also have a tribal loyalty that skews their judgment.

The paper, which requires a subscription, is “Why are people antiscience, and what can we do about it?” by Aviva Philipp-Muller, Spike W. S. Lee, and Richard E. Petty, July 12, 2022, PNAS 119 (30) e2120755119
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2120755119

Here are all four parts of the series:

  1. Why many now reject science… do you really want to know? COVID demonstrated — as nothing else could — that the “science” was all over the map and didn’t help people avoid panic. As the panic receded, the U.S. government started setting up a disinformation board to target NON-government sources of panic, thus deepening loss of trust.
  2. Researchers: Distrust of science is due to tribal loyalty. In Part 2 of 4, we look at a claim arising from a recent study: We blindly believe those we identify with, ignoring the wisdom of science. There seems to be no recognition that researchers, however fiercely competitive among themselves, also have a tribal loyalty that skews their judgment.
  3. Researchers: If we tell folks more about science, they trust less. Part 3: The researchers argue that doubts about science arise from conflict with beliefs. The many COVID-19 debacles suggest other causes… Generally, the remedy for loss of trust after widespread failures is reform of the system, not reform of its doubters. Post-COVID, scientists should take heed.

and

  1. Claim: If science were properly presented, trust would grow! The ideas examined in these four short essays all assume that scientists are exempt from the bias and self-interest that governs everyone else. We’re asked to believe that scientists are somehow exempt from the bias problem that they say is ingrained in our biology — yet they have the same biology as everyone else…
Comments
There is also the question of when the outbreak first occurred. When was it? How long before Dr Li noticed the clusters? How many clusters did he notice over what time frame? Unless asking about origin of COVID is propaganda. Last I checked, that was scientific inquiry.BobRyan
August 3, 2022
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Going back to the 70s, the bird flu was promised to be safe. It killed more people than the bird flu. Going back, experts told us eugenics was valid science. Despite the experts in both cases claiming something to be true, they lied. How can ten years of testing be forced into less than a year? That is a valid question. It cannot be done. How does anyone know what the long term effects are? It has not been around long enough to know. Just because government experts claim something is true, does not make it true. Show me the ten+ year study. According to the College of Physicians of Philadelphia: "Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years, and involves a combination of public and private involvement." https://historyofvaccines.org/vaccines-101/how-are-vaccines-made/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation Is it only long and complex with everything other than COVID? They did not even have a years worth of research. The first phase of vaccine development is animal, which takes at least three years. They skipped all traditional testing, including animal. How do they know how safe it is without the proper testing science requires? That is not propaganda, but scientific fact. The propagandists are the ones telling us it is safe. The same ones who said if you took the shots, you would not get COVID. They had no idea what would happen, but guaranteed people would not get it. These were the same people who still push masks that do nothing to stop something airborne. Airborne viruses, like influenza, enters through the mouth, nose and eyes. Why were face-shields not pushed? They protect everything, unlike the masks. A lot of questions that should be asked that are not.BobRyan
August 3, 2022
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BR at 115, Seriously? Where the hell do you get vour information from? Certainly from nowhere and no place credible. "No one has yet to say why the COVID shots are safe." https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w - AND - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/recs/grade/covid-19-pfizer-biontech-etr.html If you keep posting crap you will be called on it.relatd
August 2, 2022
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BR at 114, Stop the useless speculation. Just stop it. You rambling on about what should have been done amounts to nothing. Zero. And you commenting on people's mental states can have a negative effect on others who might believe you. Keep that in mind.relatd
August 2, 2022
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No one has yet to say why the COVID shots are safe. MRNA is band new. There has been no long term studies where it has been used on people. How does anyone know they are safe? It takes ten years to develop vaccines. Most pass the animal testing phase, which lasts at least three years. The vast majority do not get past the human testing that takes seven years. Just because something works in animals, does not mean it works in humans. That is why every few years exciting news breaks about AIDS vaccines being right around the corner. They get it to work on animals, but have yet to get it to work on people. No one can say they are safe. No one knows. It has not been out long enough to know anything. The bird flu shots in the 70s was supposed to be safe. Everyone said it was. More people died of the shots than the flu. Without proper testing that cannot be rushed, no one knows what will happen to those who take it. The human testing phase is happening. It is being tested on the population of the world without being told the truth. No one knows if it is safe or not. We know it stops nothing from spreading and data does prove people are more likely to die after getting the shot than those who do not. There are also side effects that are not being called side effects. https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/study-covid-shots-linked-increase-overall-deaths/ https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/zogby-many-got-covid-shots-diagnosed-brand-new-condition/BobRyan
August 2, 2022
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vividbleau It is not just Italy, but other countries as well. That region was hit hard. Everyone had already become infected who was going to be. Did the lock-downs do anything? They did, just not what they were hoping. Staying inside in close proximity made things worse. People need to get outside for the benefits of the sun. Fresh air is a good thing. People all over the world were isolated and alone. Human contact, not online, is needed. Isolation causes depression, which weakens the immune system. Before Italy shut down and forced people into their homes, how many had already left for other countries? The day people infected with COVID left Wuhan was the day it spread to the world. Symptoms do not show right away. You cannot stop a spread that has already happened. But can make things worse, which is what governments around the world did. Closing businesses harmed more than the economy. For some, that was the only socializing they did. Taking that away led to suicides. People who were comfortable and did not worry about bills lost everything. They were also among the increased suicides. Shutting down places where people unwind, like bars, increased violence at home. Being stuck in the same place for too long brings serious mental health issues. Women who would have left their abusers were forced to stay with them. It was more important to prevent them from leaving, than being safe. Women and children were murdered. People who were told to stay home was given time, which led to increased alcohol and drug abuse. People have been drinking themselves to death and ODing in record numbers. Those masks people were told to wear inside and outside are bio-hazards. They get set in bio-hazard containers after they are used by doctors and nurses. They also switch them out, when having to wear them longer, every four hours. Any longer and bacteria starts to grow. I have seen plenty of people told to wear a mask, but never heard anyone tell them to get bio-hazard bins. We know they need to be replaced every four hours, yet no one says that. How much bacteria are on those masks people still wear? Masking children and social distancing was reckless. Children do get serious symptoms from COVID. Masking, social distancing and keeping children at home harmed their growth. Children learn to speak by watching lips move. That cannot be done with masks. Speech impediments are a problem. Along with depression from not being around other children.BobRyan
August 2, 2022
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JVL I can admit when I am wrong. It was December when he noticed. I was going off memory. October is what I came up with as the latest the outbreak could have happened in Wuhan. In order for the clusters to form that got Dr. Li's notice, at least two months is needed. It was clusters over time; not seeing everything happening in a single day. Given the time it takes to kill the elderly, which is what Dr. Li noticed, could it have been any shorter than two months? Regardless of when, it still begs the question of how many people left Wuhan for the world once COVID hit? Release and deaths do not happen on the same day with SARS.BobRyan
August 2, 2022
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BobRyan: It was October. The CCP covered it up for as long as they could. December is when it broke to the world. That was two months after it was first noticed. Again, what evidence or data do you have that persuades you it was first noticed in October 2019? I've asked you several times now and you just keep repeating that it's true without justifying the claim.JVL
August 1, 2022
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JVL It was October. The CCP covered it up for as long as they could. December is when it broke to the world. That was two months after it was first noticed. When did it begin? How long until it was noticed? How many infected were already in the world before China admitted the truth? SARS hides. There is nothing that really screams out that it is SARS. Dr. Li just happened to notice there were clusters of elderly that were dying, rather than younger people. Time is fixed. Viruses cannot go back in time. Discovery always follows outbreak. There is no way to know when that outbreak happened. Impossible to know how long it was in the world. SARS is not some great killer, like influenza. It requires a weakened host to get to the lungs. Every SARS outbreak showed the same thing. An increase in elderly dying without others, including children. The only way to get the numbers they used based on what is known about SARS, is if other things are included and deaths given to COVID that would otherwise be contributed to those other things. Influenza was included in the deaths. As for that shot, they are finding increased deaths from those who took it. There are also additional health problems being discovered. https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/study-covid-shots-linked-increase-overall-deaths/ https://www.wnd.com/2022/07/zogby-many-got-covid-shots-diagnosed-brand-new-condition/BobRyan
August 1, 2022
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JVL re 107 Personally very gratified that you changed your mind, speaks very well of you. Vividvividbleau
July 31, 2022
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BR at 104, Stop the narrative. Just stop it.relatd
July 31, 2022
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BobRyan: The CCP forced him to recant. He noticed in October of 2019. Again, even the stuff you linked to says he noticed and reported people being ill in DECEMBER of 2019 NOT October. I don't know why you keep insisting on October.JVL
July 31, 2022
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Vividbleau: In what way? I am now in favour of calling any human who can or did produce eggs a woman or female for medical and physical purposes. I heard an interview with a woman doctor who pointed out that after puberty there were lots and lots of physical characteristics that can never be changed via surgery or hormones. Most of us don't need to be told if an individual is male or female because of some of those characteristics. I don't mind using female pronouns when referring to someone who is trans-female; I think I can do that without addressing the physical issues, just like I can call a woman Miss or Mrs or Ms or Dr or whatever they prefer. Did you know there was a female King of Sweden? The Swedes decided it was a non-sex title. Anyway, the interview I heard also pointed out that some of the male characteristics would always give an advantage in sporting events but I still think it's up to the athletes to decide. I assume that most women athletes do not want to compete against a trans-woman and I'd hope that the majority opinion would be respected. It was also pointed out that there are few if any trans-men who want to compete in the male events. No surprise there. It was also pointed out that woman do not want men in some places because they want to be able to be safe at times. I hadn't really thought about that before and it was pointed out that a lot of abuse had happened which I hadn't realised completely. Anyway, I don't care if people of the age of consent want to go through cosmetic surgery to make themselves look more like the sex they were not born as but parts of their bodies will still show physical signs of their genetics. So, because they transition cannot be complete then I think genetically and medically the person should be labelled according to their genetics. Socially I couldn't care less what people want to look like or dress or be addressed as.JVL
July 31, 2022
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Bob “Wuhan is a business center that gets global traffic, including Americans.” Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that Italy did a lot of business in Wuhan and that’s why the country got blitzed early on.The Lombardy region suffered the worst outbreak in Europe. Vividvividbleau
July 31, 2022
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JVL “For the record, I have changed my mind about the man vs woman issue.” In what way? Vividvividbleau
July 31, 2022
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Dr. Li was the first to say anything about SARS. The CCP forced him to recant. He noticed in October of 2019. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30382-2/fulltext https://www.sapiens.org/culture/li-wenliang-nationalism/ How many left Wuhan for other parts of China and the world before he noticed? How many left between the time he noticed and when he was forced to recant? Wuhan is a business center that gets global traffic, including Americans. COVID needs comorbidities in all but very few cases. Last winter we were told there was no influenza, yet there is always influenza. Influenza was added to the CDC numbers. Dr. Birx admitted she knew all along the shots would do nothing about COVID. https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/dr-deborah-birx-i-knew-shots-would-not-prevent-covid-infection/BobRyan
July 30, 2022
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Relatd, to observe regarding facts of experience and linked concerns is not doing medicine sans licence. Let me be specific, for years I have realised that a certain dosage of Garlic oil is helpful for me in dealing with colds [given my atopic condition]. I am aware of vitamin and mineral deficiency issues, esp D and C, D having been tied to adverse CV19 outcomes. When I recently had what seems a mild case, I did that, Zn was not then to be had. On evidence including Uttar Pradesh and the D wave, I also took IVM. All of the above helped, and for the moment I seem to have natural immunity given a cluster linked to the district where I just dealt with multiple funerals. All of this can be derided as anecdotes or fringe opinion, but that is part of the issue with the OP, the so called mainstream has undermined its own credibility. We are going to regret consequences of how things have been handled in recent years, medical, policy, law, government, politics. KFkairosfocus
July 30, 2022
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ET at 101, I would caution you against giving medical advice, including a specific type of treatment.relatd
July 30, 2022
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JVL:
Here’s a particular quote which definitely supports ET:
In September, researchers from Hospital Del Mar in Barcelona reported that among 249 patients studied, those who survived COVID had higher zinc levels in their plasma (an average of 63.1 mcg/dl) than those who died (43mcg/dl).
Anyway, he’s got a point and I’m honestly admitting it and will argue on his side on this one.
And according to the medical books, humans should have a minimum of 72 mcg/dL. 72 - 142 is the range. And according to a peer reviewed paper, zinc acetate, is the zinc that prevents covid from replicating. And a zinc ionophore is required. Green tea contains EGCG, which is an ionophore and an antioxidant. Quercetin is also a zinc ionophore. Vitamin D levels should be 40ng/mL - 70 ng/mLET
July 30, 2022
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“In May, Chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers Cecilia Rouse said during a CNN interview that “Typically, economists date a recession as being at least two quarters of negative growth, and other factors, which we have not seen at all.” Biden’s economic adviser Jared Bernstein also described a recession as “two consecutive quarters of declining growth” in an op-ed provided to Foreign Affairs. The president’s economic adviser Heather Boushey also cited the “rule of thumb” in a paper that “two quarters of negative growth in GDP” means the economy is in a recession. Source Breitbart https://twitter.com/rncresearch/status/1553068799167008775?s=21&t=KgHtAGjmNcaJzXcJO07ilw Obama, Clinton and Tim Geitner also defined a recession in those terms as well. Vividvividbleau
July 30, 2022
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JVL “I would think that you would be aware of the official US government policy. Oh well.” You made me spill my coffee, take the red pill JVL Vividvividbleau
July 30, 2022
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Vivid at 96, You have discovered the work of the Global Cabal of Relabelers and Repackagers. Take existing words and change their meanings. Invent new words and terms to create the illusion that people are living "in the future."relatd
July 30, 2022
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BR at 83, Your comments are unsupported. Please stop giving out medical advice. "WE" is the wrong word. World leaders, world governments ordered shutdowns - not werelatd
July 30, 2022
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Brian Deese,"Two negative quarters of GDP growth is not the technical definition of recession.” Deese, 2008: “Economists have a technical definition of recession, which is two consecutive quarters of negative growth.” https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/07/29/nancy-pelosi-acknowledged-technical-definition-recession-2008/ Just a few words that liberals have redefined: "recession" "woman" "vaccine" "democracy" "healthcare" "racist" "mostly peaceful" https://t.co/XINob7S6in Vividvividbleau
July 30, 2022
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https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/07/30/joe-biden-moves-back-into-isolation-after-testing-positive-again-for-coronavirus/ Vividvividbleau
July 30, 2022
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ET: Pauling was right. Illnesses like those can be traced to vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Shame on the people in power for not educating the masses. Well, for the second or third time (for various topics) I was going to argue against ET but I have to admit he has a damn good point. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-supplements-vitamins-what-we-know As he says, it's all about deficiencies and not getting extra which can be dangerous if you do it to excess. There are caveats in the article about not knowing for sure with COVID-19 but the discussion about general cases is good. Here's a particular quote which definitely supports ET:
In September, researchers from Hospital Del Mar in Barcelona reported that among 249 patients studied, those who survived COVID had higher zinc levels in their plasma (an average of 63.1 mcg/dl) than those who died (43mcg/dl).
Anyway, he's got a point and I'm honestly admitting it and will argue on his side on this one.JVL
July 30, 2022
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Vividbleau: No there is not two ways of looking at it a recession has always been defined as two quarters of GDP decline and has been defined that way since the 1950s. As I stated previously my business is trading the stock market . I have been doing it for 48 years. For 48 years a recession has been defined as a decline for two consecutive quarters. There has never been in my lifetime a recession that was not defined in that way. From: https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2022/07/21/how-do-economists-determine-whether-the-economy-is-in-a-recession/ (Yes, that's The White House!)
What is a recession? While some maintain that two consecutive quarters of falling real GDP constitute a recession, that is neither the official definition nor the way economists evaluate the state of the business cycle. Instead, both official determinations of recessions and economists’ assessment of economic activity are based on a holistic look at the data—including the labor market, consumer and business spending, industrial production, and incomes.
The National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) Business Cycle Dating Committee—the official recession scorekeeper—defines a recession as “a significant decline in economic activity that is spread across the economy and that lasts more than a few months.” The variables the committee typically tracks include real personal income minus government transfers, employment, various forms of real consumer spending, and industrial production. Notably, there are no fixed rules or thresholds that trigger a determination of decline, although the committee does note that in recent decades, they have given more weight to real personal income less transfers and payroll employment.
Here's a link to the National Bureau of Economic Research laying out their definition: https://www.nber.org/news/business-cycle-dating-committee-announcement-january-7-2008 Which reads, in part:
The committee places particular emphasis on two monthly measures of activity across the entire economy: (1) personal income less transfer payments, in real terms and (2) employment. In addition, we refer to two indicators with coverage primarily of manufacturing and goods: (3) industrial production and (4) the volume of sales of the manufacturing and wholesale-retail sectors adjusted for price changes. We also look at monthly estimates of real GDP such as those prepared by Macroeconomic Advisers (see http://www.macroadvisers.com). Although these indicators are the most important measures considered by the NBER in developing its business cycle chronology, there is no fixed rule about which other measures contribute information to the process.
The chair of the NBER is John Lipsky:
John Lipsky is the Peterson Distinguished Scholar at the Kissinger Center for Global Affairs, and a Senior Fellow of the Foreign Policy Institute, both at Johns Hopkins University's Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). Previously, he served a five-year term as the International Monetary Fund's First Deputy Managing Director. Prior to his IMF term, Mr. Lipsky was Vice Chairman of the JPMorgan Investment Bank, after serving as JPMorgan's Chief Economist. Currently, Mr. Lipsky is Co-Chair of the Aspen Institute's Program on the World Economy, a Director of the Center for Global Development, and of the American Council on Germany and an Advisory Board member of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research (SIEPR). Mr. Lipsky is a life member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and received a PhD in economics from Stanford University.
I would think that you would be aware of the official US government policy. Oh well.JVL
July 30, 2022
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JVL “ It seems that there are different ways of looking at it and if the NBER are suspect then please explain why.” No there is not two ways of looking at it a recession has always been defined as two quarters of GDP decline and has been defined that way since the 1950s. As I stated previously my business is trading the stock market . I have been doing it for 48 years. For 48 years a recession has been defined as a decline for two consecutive quarters. There has never been in my lifetime a recession that was not defined in that way. Take the red pill Vividvividbleau
July 30, 2022
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I have not received a COVID-19 or a flu vaccine. I have not been sick with covid. It's been two decades since I was sick from the flu. Pauling was right. Illnesses like those can be traced to vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Shame on the people in power for not educating the masses.ET
July 30, 2022
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JVL, a recession is a long enough dip in GDP etc, as part of aperiodic economic oscillations. For many decades, it has been statistically recognised and a consensus that two quarters -- half a year -- of decline is a reliable sign of recession. You do not DEFINE a recession, you recognise it and its statistical signs. There are political newspeak games being played. As for the CV19 story, they will one day be the poster child for how respect for science was foolishly sacrificed for political expediency, and at what cost. KFkairosfocus
July 30, 2022
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