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Good and bad arguments for fine-tuning?

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Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Canadian cosmologist Don Page has written, “In summary, I think the evidence from fine tuning is ambiguous, since the probabilities depend on the models.”

Some have questioned this, and I asked physicist Rob Sheldon who writes to say,

Don Page is exactly correct. Many, though not all, of these fine-tuning arguments have no way to measure the domain, and without that, specifying the range doesn’t turn it into fine tuning.

Let us suppose that your name is Robert Green, and you Google your name and find out that there are exactly 256 Robert Greens in the phone book. Is this evidence of fine tuning or not?

You know the range–256–but you don’t know the domain–the number of potential Robert Greens in the universe. Now suppose your name were Englebert Humperdinck, and you discovered there’s another one in the phone book. Would that be fine tuning? Let us further suppose that this EH was listed as living in a house that you moved out of 15 years ago, would that remove the fine tuning? So you see, it really does matter how big the domain is, how big is the pool of potential-EH minus defined-EH.

In the same way, when someone tells you that the proton mass to electron mass ratio must be accurate to 3 parts per thousand or else life is impossible, is that fine tuning or not? IF it is 3 parts per million for every other physical constant, then this one might not be so finely tuned after all. But wait, parts-per-million of what? It has to be compared to something, and by their nature, physical constants are in different units which makes it hard to intercompare them.

Now when the expansion energy of the universe (kinetic energy) equals the gravitational potential energy of the universe to one part in 10^60, that is measured in the same energy units. That’s clearly fine tuning or a law, but not an accident. So there are valid examples of fine tuning, which may turn
into some deep physical insight in the future, but for the moment can only be described as not-coincidence. But there are more invalid fine tuning examples being advertised than there are valid ones, which was Don Page’s point.

Thoughts?

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Comments
Virgil Cain, Map, territory.....Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Carpathian:
The resistances in a voltage divider are a result of the chemical makeup of the resistors .
So what?
The resistors and the actual resistances they provide, are not symbolic.
So what? AGAIN the codons are the symbols that REPRESENT the amino acids.
They are “symbolic” only to us, the intelligent agents who “symbolized” them.
Only ignorance says things like that. Codons represent amino acids. That is a scientific fact. The codons are symbols within the system. We only recognized them as that. Perhaps this isn't covered in your third grade curriculum but it is covered in the higher grades.Virgil Cain
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Voltage dividers have voltage in and voltage out. With biology we have nucleotides in and amino acids out.
Using that sort of simplistic logic I could compare a bathtub to a nuclear generating plant, i.e. water in and water out. ID has a tradition of never providing details about any of their claims and we see that in this sort of response from you.Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Voltage dividers have voltage in and voltage out. With biology we have nucleotides in and amino acids out. Ribosomes are genetic compilers.
The resistances in a voltage divider are a result of the chemical makeup of the resistors . The resistors and the actual resistances they provide, are not symbolic. A D/A converter on the other hand, accepts a symbolic/numerical/binary value as an input.
AGAIN the codons are the symbols that REPRESENT the amino acids.
They are "symbolic" only to us, the intelligent agents who "symbolized" them. Show me another intelligent agent who had anything to do with those "symbols".Carpathian
August 19, 2015
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Virgil Cain: Voltage dividers have voltage in and voltage out. With biology we have nucleotides in and amino acids out. Ribosomes are genetic compilers. AGAIN the codons are the symbols that REPRESENT the amino acids. Well put. But you can shout this at a brick wall and the brick wall will never agree with you.mike1962
August 18, 2015
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Carpathian:
That’s a terribly unscientific argument.
Only someone who is scientifically illiterate would say that and here you are.
IDists are making the biological ID argument and should have to build a case why it is so without regard to other explanations.
That isn't how science works. Science mandates that lesser explanations be explored first- parsimony.
Why should biological ID be the only assumption in science that doesn’t have to stand on its own evidence?
It does stand on its own evidence.
If “Darwninism” can be ruled out because of its “improbability”, then the same should apply to biological ID.
Darwinism is ruled out due to lack of supporting evidence, lack of models and lack of testability. Your position has absolutely nothing. And we can tell that hurts.Virgil Cain
August 18, 2015
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Carpathian:
Biology in operation is equivalent to the voltage divider, i.e. the output is based on a chemical configuration.
Voltage dividers have voltage in and voltage out. With biology we have nucleotides in and amino acids out. Ribosomes are genetic compilers. AGAIN the codons are the symbols that REPRESENT the amino acids.Virgil Cain
August 18, 2015
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Carpathian; If you can’t show me a “symbol” driven component in biology, then biology is not symbol driven. Logic Fail. Carpathian; If you can’t show me a “symbol” driven component in biology, then biology is not symbol driven. So it's sign driven then. Do you have any intent whatsoever to actually educate yourself on the subject?Mung
August 18, 2015
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How did the subject of this thread get changed from good and bad arguments for fine-tuning to bad arguments against ID?Mung
August 18, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Of course it is as every day someone could actually step forward and demonstrate life can arise and diversify via purely materialistic processes. However no one can. The intelligent design criteria has been met.
That's a terribly unscientific argument. IDists are making the biological ID argument and should have to build a case why it is so without regard to other explanations. Why should biological ID be the only assumption in science that doesn't have to stand on its own evidence? If "Darwninism" can be ruled out because of its "improbability", then the same should apply to biological ID. Show how it is possible to design, roll out, repair, etc., biological organisms with a top-down system like biological ID.Carpathian
August 18, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Wrong! They are symbolic within the system. Codons REPRESENT amino acids. The codons act exactly as symbols act. The genetic code is a real code and you are a real moron.
A D/A converter is "symbol" driven, i.e. its output voltage is based on a numeric "symbol" read on its input. A voltage divider also can generate a voltage dependent on the resistors used, but it is not "symbol" driven. The output of the voltage divider is based on the chemical composition of the resistors. Biology in operation is equivalent to the voltage divider, i.e. the output is based on a chemical configuration. If I am wrong, you should be able to show me the chemical equivalent of the D/A converter where a "symbolic" input generates an output. If you can't show me a "symbol" driven component in biology, then biology is not symbol driven.Carpathian
August 18, 2015
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Carpathian:
Biological ID is not being put to the test every day.
Of course it is as every day someone could actually step forward and demonstrate life can arise and diversify via purely materialistic processes. However no one can. The intelligent design criteria has been met.
If your claim is true, that biological ID has been tested, show me where I can look that up.
You are too willfully ignorant to look anything up.Virgil Cain
August 17, 2015
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EugeneS: I am not asking about phenotypic effect. Of course you are. If it has no phenotypic effect, then it's not functional. It doesn't matter if it codes for proteins, or regulates other genes, or has some other function.Zachriel
August 17, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
You are equally ignorant with respect to science. ID is put to the test every day and every day it passes.
Biological ID is not being put to the test every day. It has never been tested by the ID side at all. Biological ID is the kind of ID this site is concerned with. Building 747's is not biological ID. If your claim is true, that biological ID has been tested, show me where I can look that up. It doesn't exist since IDists, i.e biological IDists, have done anything they can to avoid the question. Saying "aliens" did it does not prove that it can be done by "aliens".Carpathian
August 17, 2015
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Carpathian:
Yes, but they are symbolic only to us.
Wrong! They are symbolic within the system. Codons REPRESENT amino acids. The codons act exactly as symbols act. The genetic code is a real code and you are a real moron. Look, you are obviously ignorant with respect to biology. You are equally ignorant with respect to science. ID is put to the test every day and every day it passes.
i.e., the interaction is chemical
No, it isn't.Virgil Cain
August 17, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Symbols!
Yes, but they are symbolic only to us. i.e., the interaction is chemical unlike a computer which is truly symbolic. In a computers' RAM, the data is symbolic as there is no distinction between 0 and 1 as they are used as symbols in further processing. In a cell, there is a distinction in the effect of those chemicals. To say they are "codes" put there by an intelligent agent might actually be true, but the fact that this process works as it does in no way indicates the presence of an intelligent agent's intentions. It is not good enough to look at something, break down it's process as being "code-like" in operation and then conclude from that that there was a "code-giver". I don't understand why ID doesn't put its it's own theory to a test. See if it is possible to orchestrate the makeup of an ecosystem from top-down. I see no effort in criticizing ID from the ID side, which is what you would expect from any scientific theory.Carpathian
August 17, 2015
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Carpathian- Cells are chemical systems like computers are electrical systems. Also we did NOT come up with the symbols. We observed them. As we have told you the codons do not become the amino acids. There isn't any physio-chemical connection.
A codon is a sequence of three DNA or RNA nucleotides that corresponds with a specific amino acid or stop signal during protein synthesis.
Symbols!Virgil Cain
August 17, 2015
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Virgil Cain,
"A codon is a sequence of three DNA or RNA nucleotides that corresponds with a specific amino acid or stop signal during protein synthesis. DNA and RNA molecules are written in a language of four nucleotides; meanwhile, the language of proteins includes 20 amino acids."
"Nucleotides are organic molecules that serve as the monomers, or subunits, of nucleic acids like DNA and RNA. The building blocks of nucleic acids, nucleotides are composed of a nitrogenous base, a five-carbon sugar (ribose or deoxyribose), and at least one phosphate group."
Cells are chemical systems. Simply because we have come up with symbols for a cell's components does not suddenly make those components some sort of indirect reference to the actual chemistry instead of being the chemicals themselves.Carpathian
August 17, 2015
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wd400:
I think most of the human genome is junk,...
When you come up with a way to test that idea please let us know.Virgil Cain
August 17, 2015
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Carpathian:
The cell is driven by chemistry, not symbols.
And yet codons are symbols for amino acids as there isn't any physio-chemical connection that determines the codon/ amino acid pairings.Virgil Cain
August 17, 2015
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Mung:
Carpathian @ 63: I could take a 1K resistor and paint new stripes on it so that it appears to be a 22K resistor. If measured, a meter would still show 1K. Symbols come from us, not from the physical world. Mung: It’s as if you think no measurement was ever made in the world until humans came along. Is that really what you believe?
I believe what I said, not what you said. The sentences should be easy to parse. The colored stripes on the resistor will read 1K at one read and 22K on the read after the symbol has been modified. Colored stripes indicating 1K: actual resistance = 1K Colored stripes indicating 22K: actual resistance = 1K Regardless of the symbol, the chemistry is what determines the resistor value. Language is a symbolic system, chemistry isn't. The cell is driven by chemistry, not symbols.Carpathian
August 17, 2015
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Zachriel, Be specific. I am not asking about phenotypic effect. It is a different thing altogether. In human genome only 2% of DNA is protein coding. However, whether DNA is functional is a different thing.EugeneS
August 17, 2015
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Saying ‘the number of identified regulatory functions in non-coding DNA will grow over time’ is both not specific and not a a test of the idea of junk DNA. I think most of the human genome is junk, I think there is no doubt that the number of identified regulatory functions in non-coding DNA will grow. Pretending that is a meaningful statement is as silly as News' old "earlier than previously thought" series from the fossil record.wd400
August 16, 2015
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EugeneS: How much was thought to be junk originally, and how much of that has been proven to be not junk, and still how much of that is now believed to be non-junk. The amount of junk DNA has been subject to dispute for decades; however, a substantial portion of the genome probably has little or no phenotypic effect.Zachriel
August 16, 2015
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Zachriel: Some DNA is clearly junk. This is not specific. This is general. That’s like saying, Zachriel’s Vaunted Theory of Gravity will lead to new discoveries about stars and galaxies. Be specific. How much was thought to be junk originally, and how much of that has been proven to be not junk, and still how much of that is now believed to be non-junk. And based on the figures, make a conclusion. BTW, as regards specificity and TOE see here: https://youtu.be/VHeSaUq-Hl8EugeneS
August 16, 2015
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EugeneS: Do you agree that the junk DNA hypothesis has been debunked? Some DNA is clearly junk.Zachriel
August 16, 2015
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Zachriel: It’s general, not specific. Nor is it properly entailed, much less uniquely entailed. Do you agree that the junk DNA hypothesis has been debunked?EugeneS
August 16, 2015
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EugeneS: Zachriel is (are?) pretending that saying ‘the number of identified regulatory functions in non-coding DNA will grow over time’ is not specific. It's general, not specific. Nor is it properly entailed, much less uniquely entailed.Zachriel
August 16, 2015
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It's absolutely pointless talking to people who have chosen to act like little children. I can't even rely on their ability to count. Zachriel is (are?) pretending that saying 'the number of identified regulatory functions in non-coding DNA will grow over time' is not specific. Carpathian demands that only engineering a living cell from scratch will prove ID right. Is it not capricious? Though I am not a biologist, even I can see that the case for ID will only grow stronger over time as new functions in non-protein coding DNA are identified. From Wiki (Non-Coding DNA):
The international Encyclopedia of DNA Elements (ENCODE) project uncovered, by direct biochemical approaches, that at least 80% of human genomic DNA has biochemical activity. ... Other studies on plants have discovered crucial functions in portions noncoding DNA that were previously thought to be negligible and have added a new layer to the understanding of gene regulation.
All of this newly discovered regulatory functionality was originally thought to be non-existent by evolutionists. It was in line with the vague evolutionary narrative of 'trial and error' to suppose that there should be a genetic scrap yard. This hypothesis has already been falsified.EugeneS
August 16, 2015
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Virgil, "Carpathian, you are hopeless." Yes, hopeless indeed. They are acting like capricious little children. Biosemiotics is an established field of study in biology. They are acting as if it had not existed.EugeneS
August 16, 2015
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