Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 69: A way to understand Functionally Specific Complex Organisation and/or associated Information [FSCO/I] i/l/o Kolmogorov-Chaitin Complexity

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It seems that it is exceedingly hard for some to understand what FSCO/I is about. In responding to an objector, I wrote as follows just now, and think it is worth headlining for reference:

Where, K-Complexity is summarised by Wikipedia, as a first level point of reference that would have been immediately accessible all along:

<<In algorithmic information theory (a subfield of computer science and mathematics), the Kolmogorov complexity of an object, such as a piece of text, is the length of a shortest computer program (in a predetermined programming language) that produces the object as output. It is a measure of the computational resources needed to specify the object, and is also known as algorithmic complexity, Solomonoff–Kolmogorov–Chaitin complexity, program-size complexity, descriptive complexity, or algorithmic entropy. It is named after Andrey Kolmogorov, who first published on the subject in 1963 [1][2] and is a generalization of classical information theory.

The notion of Kolmogorov complexity can be used to state and prove impossibility results akin to Cantor’s diagonal argument, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, and Turing’s halting problem. In particular, no program P computing a lower bound for each text’s Kolmogorov complexity can return a value essentially larger than P’s own length (see section § Chaitin’s incompleteness theorem); hence no single program can compute the exact Kolmogorov complexity for infinitely many texts.>>

From this, it is but a short step to imagine a universal constructor device which, fed a compact description in a suitable language, will construct and present the [obviously, finite] object. Let us call this the universal 3-D printer/constructor, 3-DP/C.

Thus, in principle, reduction of an organised entity to a description in a suitably compact language is formally equivalent in information terms to the object, once 3-DP/C is present as a conceptual entity. So, WLOG, reduction to compact description in a compact language d(E) is readily seen as identifying the information content of any given entity E.

For, d(E) is a program though it can simply be a functional organisational specification, as, causally in this logic-model world:

d(E) + 3-DP/C + n ==> E1, E2, . . . En.

Obviously, n is an auxiliary instruction setting the number of copies to be made.

I write ==> to imply a constructive causal process effected by a 3-DP/C.

From this we may come back to Orgel and notice his [1973] summary:

These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.

We thus have a formal framework to reduce any entity to a description d(E), which is informational and has as metric

I = length[d(E)],

where a chain of Y/N q[s will yield I in bits, on the Kolmogorov assumption of compactness. I use compact, to imply that we can get a good enough estimator of I by using something compact. We do not have to actually build a most compact language.

Then, inject random changes in d(E) and observable sensitivity to perturbation would be an index of functional specificity of organisation. As a simple case try text strings in English as d(E) and a noisy, lossy transmission medium, giving d*(E). 3-DP/C can put out text strings on d*(E) but soon enough function will vanish as d(E) becomes gibberish.

d(E) –> lossy, noisy medium –> d*(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E*1

d*(E) –> LNM –> d**(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E**1

etc.

After a few generations, gibberish predictably will destroy configuration based functional organisation, starting with text in English.

And so forth.

I trust this will help you understand what FSCO/I is about more clearly.

Overnight, illustrating:

Now of course, 3-DP/C does not exist, though we could argue that the state of the art of technology can be seen as an early, primitive partial case. Venter et al are obviously doing engineering with life forms for example. And of course typing on a keyboard and outputting to a screen or paper are very low level examples.

Technology is not the issue, a formal representation to capture information content of a functionally organised entity is.

Conceive of say a 3-DP/C putting out worlds specified by various cosmological models. We soon enough see the point of cosmological fine tuning, e.g. see Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

Similarly, contemplate the FSCO/I in an ABU 6500CT reel, using d(E) to output:

Then, let us contemplate as a related case, the von Neumann Kinematic Self Replicator:

A von Neumann kinematic self-replicator

With these in mind, now consider the configuration space, needle in haystack search challenge:

Thence, see the significance of active information:

It is thus clear that FSCO/I is a real world concept and the design inference import it carries is real, non trivial, not incoherent, and significant. END

PS, as a frequent objector is again demanding measured values of FSCO/I on pretence that it is incoherent and un-measurable, here is a longstanding illustration put up at UD many years ago, with three specific values building on information metrics in the literature:

Comments
CR, we both know the context as was already drawn out, modern information theory, where the discovery of coded algorithmic information in DNA gives explicit information. The OP is using a model to draw out how as Orgel and Wicken were aware in the 1970's, functionally specific organisation is informational. Notice, a compact description language gets us to an estimator of K-complexity, with information metric, where for instance bit length is capable of conversion to a negative log probability metric. This development is 200 years beyond Paley on qualitative recognition of contrivance and 2000 years beyond Cicero on recognising blind search challenge in a configuration space. You obviously wish to reverse those advances in order to play dismissive rhetoric over qualitative discussions; obviously, a back handed admission of cogency. Sorry, the substance is there, first, explicit algorithmic information in DNA, then implicit, description language information, consider a suitably compressed DWG file. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2023
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@81
‘Darwinists’ don’t ‘deny’ teleological purpose because of their philosophical tendencies; they just think there is sufficient evidence to show that no designer is required. You’ve been told that over and over and over again. Why can’t you, at the very least and out of decency, admit that? Is your stance so fragile that you have to attack a straw man version of your opponents views?
It doesn't matter how often people tell BornAgain77 that "Darwinists" accept the reality of teleology. He cannot absorb information that contradicts what he already believes.PyrrhoManiac1
April 1, 2023
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CR, we both know that measurable, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information is 200 years beyond Paley’s valid but qualitative observation.
Way beyond in what sense, KF? This is incredibly vague. I'm suggesting this is not a counter example. It’s a subset of Paley’s criteria. It’s a special case. That’s my point. Yet, you still haven't given an example that doesn't overlap. Being well adapted to serve a purpose is a more fundamental way to express that same criteria. This is like saying 2+2=4 is way beyond mathematics, which is a category error. 2+2=4 is a special case of mathematics. So, again, in what way is it "way beyond" Paley's criteria? Please be specific. Of course, I've been asking this repeatedly and haven't receive an answer.critical rationalist
April 1, 2023
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CR, we both know that measurable, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information is 200 years beyond Paley's valid but qualitative observation. That you sdeem so desperate not to admit it, tells us the power of that advance. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2023
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"Disassemble a passenger jet, which comprises about 6,000,000 parts. "2. Reassemble them randomly," An experiment was conducted with fruit flies. They were exposed to various things to see if they would evolve. In some cases, certain body parts appeared in the wrong places, or they died, or they were so weakened that they could not survive in the wild/their normal environment. At best, the same genetic material only got rearranged. It showed no evidence of evolution.relatd
March 31, 2023
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"they just think there is sufficient evidence to show that no designer is required" JVL, Just-So-Stories. Fairytales. Emergences, magix, and pooferies. Andrewasauber
March 31, 2023
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So, to continue this question along the lines of Origenes’ comment, where is fault tolerance specified in DNA? First, as KF likes to remind us, biological replicators operate via von Neumann's replicator-vehicle model. In regards to a bacterium, first the recipient of how to make a copy of the bacterium is copied. Then the vehicle is constructed using the recipe. The recipe undergoes an error correction process during the copying phase. The vehicle does not get copied as that would require it to somehow scan itself at an atom by atom level. Even then, that would replicate all the errors the vehicle had accumulated having worn out, which would result in an error catastrophe. Second, Does everyone who has a mutation that effect's their hands end up with no fingers? After all, there are people with six fingers instead of five. Why don't those people end up with no fingers? A person who has six fingers did not end up with the recipe that included the blueprint for a complete extra finger. Right? Rather, a mutation in those genes affects how some other genes are expressed during the development process. So, those people end up with six fingers instead of five. However, in some cases, mutations result in significantly fewer fingers as well.
Disassemble a passenger jet, which comprises about 6,000,000 parts. 2. Reassemble them randomly,
Wait, I thought this was about Neo-Darwnism? No one thinks this reflects the latter.critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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Bornagain77: And although Darwinists, because of their atheistic metaphysics, are forced to deny that any real teleological purpose exists anywhere in the universe, Darwinists simply can’t do any research into biology without illegitimately reaching over into the ID camp and using words that directly imply teleological purpose. 'Darwinists' don't 'deny' teleological purpose because of their philosophical tendencies; they just think there is sufficient evidence to show that no designer is required. You've been told that over and over and over again. Why can't you, at the very least and out of decency, admit that? Is your stance so fragile that you have to attack a straw man version of your opponents views? It's pretty sad if one of your criticisms is that someone uses words you think imply actual design. Sounds like you're really reaching to find fault instead of making a scientific argument.JVL
March 31, 2023
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Sandy @74,
Many leading Darwinists will readily admit that life overwhelmingly ‘appears’ to be designed,
Yep , we readily admit that Darwinists ‘appear’ to be smart .
Hilarious!!! They have the appearance of intelligence. -QQuerius
March 31, 2023
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Kairosfocus @67,
BTW, years ago I used my MSO 97 to make an empty doc file, then used another program to open it up, what a mess with seemingly empty repetitive elements etc, seeming junk. I changed just one element. Then I went back to MSO, the document refused to open.
Let me also add that your experience demonstrated a low level of fault tolerance. You change one bit and the entire data set becomes inoperable. Contrast this with changing "bits" in DNA. So, to continue this question along the lines of Origenes' comment, where is fault tolerance specified in DNA? It's known that DNA includes strings that are less or more susceptible to mutation. This "specification" is integrated into the design parameters. Naturally, Darwinists will invoke their unscientific gods-of-gaps, MUSTA, MIGHTA, and EMERGED, to explain anything. Here's a thought experiment. 1. Disassemble a passenger jet, which comprises about 6,000,000 parts. 2. Reassemble them randomly, keeping only the subcomponents that become FUNCTIONAL to any level of utility. Occasionally disassemble these to try to achieve higher levels of functionality. 3. Repeat until the entire aircraft has been reassembled. 4. Note how many billions of years it takes to achieve a flying aircraft. This can be simulated by Monte Carlo analysis on a computer. • Now recognize that biological organisms are billions of times more complex. • Recognize that each component has a matter of minutes to finish assembly or become randomized again. • Recognize that many assemblies can occur that are non-functional and cannot be disassembled. • Recognize that parts from other devices are mixed in, including bicycles, pogo sticks, and chain saws. Now maybe, just maybe, some people will finally appreciate how absurd the Darwinist faith actually is. -QQuerius
March 31, 2023
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@KF
CR, you have been shown why, 200 years beyond Paley, we have more advanced information concepts, with quantification. Further, it seems you are unaware that information, entropy and probabilities are connected, as is laid out in my always linked. If you are so aware then your arguments would be deliberately misleading.
Again, you seem to be confused. Just like 2+2=4 is a special case of mathematics, FSCO/I is a special case of being "well adapted to serve a purpose." The latter is more fundamental. This is not misleading. Perhaps you can give a specific example? The one you provided overlaps, as it a special case. And yes, we have more advanced information concepts. See the constructor theory of information, which brings information into fundamental physics and lacks the problem of circularity in other theories like Shannon's etc.
We present a theory of information expressed solely in terms of which transformations of physical systems are possible and which are impossible – i.e. in constructor-theoretic terms. Although it includes conjectured laws of physics that are directly about information, independently of the details of particular physical instantiations, it does not regard information as an a priori mathematical or logical concept, but as something whose nature and properties are determined by the laws of physics alone. It does not suffer from the circularity at the foundations of existing information theory (namely that information and distinguishability are each defined in terms of the other). It explains the relationship between classical and quantum information, and reveals the single, constructor-theoretic property underlying the most distinctive phenomena associated with the latter, including the lack of in-principle distinguishability of some states, the impossibility of cloning, the existence of pairs of variables that cannot simultaneously have sharp values, the fact that measurement processes can be both deterministic and unpredictable, the irreducible perturbation caused by measurement, and entanglement (locally inaccessible information).
critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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CR claims: "Something with the appearance of design would be well adapted to serve some hypothetical purpose." Yet, teleological 'purpose', hypothetical or otherwise, simply does not exist within his Darwinian worldview.
teleological – adjective exhibiting or relating to design or purpose especially in nature https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/teleological "Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either. What an unintelligible idea." - William Provine - the late Charles A. Alexander Professor of Biological Sciences at Cornell University, said in a 1994 debate with Phil Johnson at Stanford University "In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life
And although Darwinists, because of their atheistic metaphysics, are forced to deny that any real teleological purpose exists anywhere in the universe, Darwinists simply can't do any research into biology without illegitimately reaching over into the ID camp and using words that directly imply teleological purpose. The renowned J.B.S. Haldane himself admitted as much, “Teleology is like a mistress to the biologist; he dare not be seen with her in public but cannot live without her.”
“Teleology is like a mistress to the biologist; he dare not be seen with her in public but cannot live without her.” J. B. S. Haldane
As Denis Noble, Emeritus Professor of the University of Oxford, states, “it is virtually impossible to speak of living beings for any length of time without using teleological and normative language”.
“the most striking thing about living things, in comparison with non-living systems, is their teleological organization—meaning the way in which all of the local physical and chemical interactions cohere in such a way as to maintain the overall system in existence. Moreover, it is virtually impossible to speak of living beings for any length of time without using teleological and normative language—words like “goal,” “purpose,” “meaning,” “correct/incorrect,” “success/failure,” etc.” – Denis Noble – Emeritus Professor of Cardiovascular Physiology in the Department of Physiology, Anatomy, and Genetics of the Medical Sciences Division of the University of Oxford. http://www.thebestschools.org/dialogues/evolution-denis-noble-interview/
In the following article, Stephen Talbott challenges Darwinists to, “pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness (i.e. teleology)”
The ‘Mental Cell’: Let’s Loosen Up Biological Thinking! – Stephen L. Talbott – September 9, 2014 Excerpt: Many biologists are content to dismiss the problem with hand-waving: “When we wield the language of agency, we are speaking metaphorically, and we could just as well, if less conveniently, abandon the metaphors”. Yet no scientist or philosopher has shown how this shift of language could be effected. And the fact of the matter is just obvious: the biologist who is not investigating how the organism achieves something in a well-directed way is not yet doing biology, as opposed to physics or chemistry. Is this in turn just hand-waving? Let the reader inclined to think so take up a challenge: pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness 1. One reason this cannot be done is clear enough: molecular biology — the discipline that was finally going to reduce life unreservedly to mindless mechanism — is now posing its own severe challenges. In this era of Big Data, the message from every side concerns previously unimagined complexity, incessant cross-talk and intertwining pathways, wildly unexpected genomic performances, dynamic conformational changes involving proteins and their cooperative or antagonistic binding partners, pervasive multifunctionality, intricately directed behavior somehow arising from the interaction of countless players in interpenetrating networks, and opposite effects by the same molecules in slightly different contexts. The picture at the molecular level begins to look as lively and organic — and thoughtful — as life itself. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2014/mental_cell_23.htm
This working biologist agrees with Noble and Talbott’s assessment and states, “in our work, we biologists use words that imply intentionality, functionality, strategy, and design in biology–we simply cannot avoid them.”
Life, Purpose, Mind: Where the Machine Metaphor Fails – Ann Gauger – June 2011 Excerpt: I’m a working biologist, on bacterial regulation (transcription and translation and protein stability) through signalling molecules, ,,, I can confirm the following points as realities: we lack adequate conceptual categories for what we are seeing in the biological world; with many additional genomes sequenced annually, we have much more data than we know what to do with (and making sense of it has become the current challenge); cells are staggeringly chock full of sophisticated technologies, which are exquisitely integrated; life is not dominated by a single technology, but rather a composite of many; and yet life is more than the sum of its parts; in our work, we biologists use words that imply intentionality, functionality, strategy, and design in biology–we simply cannot avoid them. Furthermore, I suggest that to maintain that all of biology is solely a product of selection and genetic decay and time requires a metaphysical conviction that isn’t troubled by the evidence. Alternatively, it could be the view of someone who is unfamiliar with the evidence, for one reason or another. But for those who will consider the evidence that is so obvious throughout biology, I suggest it’s high time we moved on. – Matthew http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/life_purpose_mind_where_the_ma046991.html#comment-8858161
And as the following 2020 article pointed out, “teleological concepts cannot be abstracted away from biological explanations without loss of meaning and explanatory power, life is inherently teleological.”
Metaphor and Meaning in the Teleological Language of Biology Annie L. Crawford – August 2020 Abstract: Excerpt: However, most discussions regarding the legitimacy of teleological language in biology fail to consider the nature of language itself. Since conceptual language is intrinsically metaphorical, teleological language can be dismissed as decorative if and only if it can be replaced with alternative metaphors without loss of essential meaning. I conclude that, since teleological concepts cannot be abstracted away from biological explanations without loss of meaning and explanatory power, life is inherently teleological. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/biologists-cant-stop-using-purpose-driven-language-because-life-really-is-designed/ In summary, the very words that Biologists themselves are forced to use when they are doing their biological research, words that directly imply teleological purpose, falsifies Darwinian evolution and proves that the design we overwhelmingly see in biology is real, and is not merely an 'appearance' and/or 'illusion' of design.
Matthew 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
bornagain77
March 31, 2023
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And, a single instruction calling up a teapot file has not removed the need for information to be somewhere describing the teapot.
Which is my point! You've just picking and choosing where the need for FSCO/I is. You've pushed it into some inexplicable mind, that exists in an inexplicable ream, that operates via inexplicable means and methods and is driven by inexplicable motives. This just pushes the problem up a level without improving it.critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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It can indeed be said that it is “improbable” that Shakespeare’s Hamlet came about by monkeys banging away on typewriters. Similarly, it is “improbable” that an iPhone comes about by purely natural processes such as mineral deposition and erosion.
This again? The works of Shakespeare explicitly refer to other human beings. It also refers to explanatory concepts like love, rivalry, allegiance, etc. which are explanatory and also refer to other human beings. Only people can create explanatory knowledge. So, the best explanation for Shakespeare work is a person. However, there is no explanatory knowledge in a bacterium. Nothing in a tiger knows, in an explicatory sense, about how its stripes help improve its food supply. This is non-explanatory knowledge. As such, comparing the two is highly flawed. Right? And we should be embarrassed?
What is your point with “misleading”?
It means what it says. How you calculate probability matters. Otherwise, it's just incredulity, dressed up.
Why is it not the case?
By nature of being, well, unrelated. Specifically, the opposite of this would be true as well.
Note how a constructor’s means to achieve a purpose can be represented as a tree of subtasks it performs defined in constructor-theoretic terms. As a more fundamental unification, this allow trees to cross boundaries in ways that the current conception obscures, such as into the applications that open files, and even information and knowledge itself. It becomes more clear, not less. And it excludes cases when multiplication is not applicable.
If this unification makes if more clear how constructor tasks are related and cross boundaries, it also becomes more clear of where tasks are not related and do not cross boundaries. This is the contrast. Again, we're referring to the appearance of design in something specific, like an organism, not how much appearance of design there is in the entire world.critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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Many leading Darwinists will readily admit that life overwhelmingly ‘appears’ to be designed,
:) Yep , we readily admit that Darwinists 'appear' to be smart .Sandy
March 31, 2023
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Gobbledygook riddled with baseless unnecessary assumptions. Why on earth should ID accept your incoherent definition of intelligent design?
First, this criticism could be applicable to just about anything. So how can it be used in a critical way? For example...
Your comment is Gobbledygook riddled with baseless unnecessary assumptions? Why should I accept it?
See how that works? Or should I say, doesn't work? Get back to me you have an actual criticism of what I wrote. Second, what does your acceptance have to do with it? That would be like saying whether 2+2=4 is a special case of mathematics depends on whether you accept it or not. What's in question is, are there examples where they do not overlap. Quibbling over the definition of words is not such and example. Again, I'm suggesting Paley's criterion for the appearance of design is a more fundamental. It's like general relativity, compared to Newton's laws. It scales. It has universal reach. But if it doesn't have universal reach, then how is it applicable to what would be our designers?critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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CR, you have been shown why, 200 years beyond Paley, we have more advanced information concepts, with quantification. Further, it seems you are unaware that information, entropy and probabilities are connected, as is laid out in my always linked. If you are so aware then your arguments would be deliberately misleading. So, to charity: my first two textbooks on information were the Connor series and Taub and Schilling, you can probably get copies through Amazon. The base of modern information metrics is negative log probability. We adjust, we use weighted sums we account for redundancies, all explained in standard textbooks. This gives an additive result, tied to the compounding of probabilities, using well known properties of the log function. BTW, neg log base two gives information in bits and is equivalent to counting the length of a chain of two-state unbiased elements. This carries the meaning, the information in one book can be added to that in another, providing there is surprise, i.e. two copies of the same book, apart from number of copies, is the same information. Which is precisely what d(E) shows. As an analogue, there is just one null set, all the references to it are just referencies to it. Take up von Neumann's construction of N using it, we have infinite references and implication, each natural is also unique, a structure organised on {}. From this, each value in ZQRCR* is also unique though there will be diverse ways to refer to them, e.g. 1/2, 2/4, 3/6 etc refer to the same rational. Just so, truly synonymous reference to d(E) is just that. The actual ideal L[d(E)] is a minimum, a compact description language simply approaches it. And, a single instruction calling up a teapot file has not removed the need for information to be somewhere describing the teapot. Such can even be reverse engineered from the teapot and used to create another copy of the pot. And more, the desperation to reject FSCO/I backhandedly speaks for itself on how powerful it is as a sign of design. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2023
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CR
CR: First, I’d again point out, it’s well adapted to serve a purpose.
Ori: I do not understand what you mean by the term “purpose.” Whose “purpose” is being served? What purpose are you referring to?
CR: Something with the appearance of design would we well adapted to serve some hypothetical purpose. This would reflect whatever problem said hypothetical designer may have wanted to solve, what hypothetical goal it had, etc. when it supposedly designed whatever is in question.
Gobbledygook riddled with baseless unnecessary assumptions. Why on earth should ID accept your incoherent definition of intelligent design?Origenes
March 31, 2023
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First, again, this is like asking an ID proponent, who is the designer of Bacterium? How did they do it, etc? Should I expect an answer. If not, why? Second, you're getting hung up on the definitions of words, again. Words are shortcuts for ideas. And I've given examples of this many times. Something with the appearance of design would we well adapted to serve some hypothetical purpose. This would reflect whatever problem said hypothetical designer may have wanted to solve, what hypothetical goal it had, etc. when it supposedly designed whatever is in question. For example, imagine something was designed, but that design reflected a careful attempt to appear to be random or natural. It would have been designed, but not exhibit the appearance of design. Right?critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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CR @64
3.1.1 Appearance of design Something with the appearance of design is often described as “improbable” [27, 28].
Let’s put this in perspective. It can indeed be said that it is “improbable” that Shakespeare’s Hamlet came about by monkeys banging away on typewriters. Similarly, it is “improbable” that an iPhone comes about by purely natural processes such as mineral deposition and erosion.
This is misleading because probability measures are multiplicative; so that would mean that two independent objects with the appearance of design would have much more of that appearance than they do separately.
“Misleading”? When you have an oil refinery AND a library filled with science books, then, sure, you have more “appearance” of design, then separately. What is your point with “misleading”?
But that is not the case when the two objects have unrelated functionalities (such as, say, internal organs of different organisms).
Why is it not the case?
In contrast, two organs in the context of the same organism, coordinating to the effect of gene prop- agation, do have a greater appearance of design than either separately.
So, it works exactly the same. What “contrast” are you talking about then? Two organs in the same organism “have a greater appearance of design than either separately”, just like two independent objects have, as you have argued. There is no contrast here. And what could possibly be your point with this (non-existent) contrast?Origenes
March 31, 2023
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From an earlier thread, starting out regarding information.
Only organized systems are well adapted to serve a purpose. Strings that are random, in they merely have some order, are adapted, but not well adapted. If you can swap one string's content with the content of some other random string and it has no impact on how well it serves purpose of, say, being the recipe of a bacterium, then it wasn't well adapted to serve that purpose in the first place. Both strings are both equally poorly adapted at serving that purpose. Their ability to serve that purpose does not get any worse. However, if a string that is well adapted to serve the purpose of being the recipe for a bacterium, then you cannot replace it with just any other string. Right? You cannot change it without causing a significant reduction in its ability to serve that purpose. If you could, then it's unclear how the string was actually playing the role of the recipe of a bacterium in the first place. Again, a rock can be used to tell time by using it as a sun dial. But it's not well adapted to serve that purpose. You could replace it with some other rock, or even some non-rock, like a stick, tree, even a person. The knowledge of how to tell time is in us, not the rock. However, this is not the case with the watch. It is well adapted to serve the purpose of telling time. You cannot vary it significantly without a corresponding reduction in its ability to tell time.
Is this not a more fundamental way of saying the same thing? IOw, Paley perfected the criteria for the appearance of design. Oddly, functional specificity was easier, it is easy to see that for configuration-sensitive function, missing, disoriented, poorly coupled, defective or missing parts, beyond reasonable tolerance, will undermine function. When something is well adapted to serve a purpose (configuration-sensitive), changing it will cause it to serve that purpose less, if even at all (undermine function).
So, the issue will not fit into the small bag you are trying to stuff it into to disregard key issues that make all the difference. See above. It's unclear how the criteria of being well adapted to serve a purpose is a small bag. It's a more fundamental criterion that actual scales. It's a far bigger bag. In fact, it's a bag that is so big it has universal reach As I pointed out in an earlier thread... ‹blockauote> No, I pointed out that the means by which you might choose to represent the watch, in bits, would vary wildly depending on the particular digital format you choose to represent it. Right? For example, the very same watch could appear to have wildly more or less of the appearance of design depending on what format you happened to chose to represent it, digitally. If you store it as a 12K by 12K png, that would be vastly more bits than, say, parametric format. You'd have to somehow use the most efficient digital representation possible, and that format might not have even been invented yet. For example, someone just recently invented a way to reduce the size of a Neural Radiance Field by 100 times. As such, did a watch represented as an NRF suddenly just have much less of the appearance of design? And what about a description in a string of text? Words are shortcuts for ideas, which would represent other information in the receiver, etc. As such, it's unclear how this could be accurately used, in practice, to identify how much a thing has the appearance of design. Being well adapted to serve a purpose does not have this problem, as it would be format independent and wouldn't even require a digital representation at all. It simply scales in ways FSCO/I cannot. Again, a watch is well adapted to the purpose of telling time. A rock is not, despite the fact that you can use it to tell time as a sundial. We are well adapted to use a rock to tell time, not the rock. I don't even need to appeal to Auto CAD, etc To reiterate, I have still yet to see an example of how the shoe does't fit. It's that you seem to object to wearing it consistently. At this point, you seem to be hung up on having the right definition of words, as opposed to actualiy addressing the ideas and explanatory
critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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CR, files in standard format are by definition cases of functional information. Yes, there will be redundancies and sometimes contextual omissions e.g. files assume your PC already has key fonts loaded. Files can be corrupted, so the information is functionally specific. It uses coded information with strings of glyphs, 1/0 then ASCII etc, which depend on framing and configuration. This extends from strings to more complex arrays that use pointers to set them up. Thus, configurational specificity and coupling are a part of the function, i.e. they are organised. And in the beyond a threshold sense, 500 - 1,000 bits, they are complex. BTW, years ago I used my MSO 97 to make an empty doc file, then used another program to open it up, what a mess with seemingly empty repetitive elements etc, seeming junk. I changed just one element. Then I went back to MSO, the document refused to open. So, we see functionally specific, complex organisation. Where, obviously, these files are informational, with associated information, and they obviously use info carrying capacity of the number of bits used as an index of the amount of functional information. Whether the coding is compact much less at a minimum, this is an upper bound, and a Zip or the like lossless compression can help us see how much redundancy is there. From such facts, any responsible person may readily see that functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] is a coherent, relevant, useful and ubiquitous phenomenon and concept. We can extend to say a nut and bolt, which can be reduced to a DWG file format or to NC control code. Machines can then be set up to create these in quantity, just look at the bins in a hardware store, or look under the bonnet/hood of a car. Here, except perhaps for stamped symbols on a bolt head, the information is implicit in the organisation of the nut and bolt. We could go on and on, pausing to note that the same pattern is pervasive in the world of life and in the physics of the cosmos. The rhetorical pretence that FSCO/I is meaningless or incoherent etc is a mark of desperate opposition, a back handed implicit acknowledgement of its significance and power as a strong sign of design. KF PS, if you can call up a tea pot with one command, that is the problem. The description of the pot is loaded elsewhere and the command indexes and pulls it.kairosfocus
March 31, 2023
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PS, Wikipedia confesses:
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief is a bestselling book by Francis Collins in which he advocates theistic evolution. Collins is an American physician-geneticist, noted for his discoveries of disease genes, and his leadership of the Human Genome Project (HGP). He currently serves as the director of the US National Institutes of Health. In the book, Collins describes briefly the process by which he became a Christian.[1][2] Collins raises arguments for the idea of God, drawing from science and philosophy. He cites many famous thinkers, most prevalently C. S. Lewis, as well as Saint Augustine, Stephen Hawking, Charles Darwin, Theodosius Dobzhansky and others. In 2007 Christianity Today judged it one of the best books of the previous year.[3] . . .
The cover of the book of course features a certain molecule of note.kairosfocus
March 31, 2023
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CR @63
CR: First, I’d again point out, it’s well adapted to serve a purpose.
I do not understand what you mean by the term "purpose." Whose "purpose" is being served? What purpose are you referring to? Do you mean to say that something has a *function* within a system?Origenes
March 31, 2023
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Of course, predictably, you will continue to deny that file size measures are an index of FSCO/I,
What format? How much of the means to interpret the context is in us, or the program that reads the file? In OpenGL, you can specify an entire teapot using a single command. So, if a file contained that command, then you’re going to get wildly varying results, compared to another file that code contains the individual polygons that would make up the exact same teapot. Of course, polygons are an approximation. You can use more points / faces to become more accurate, but that increases the file size dramatically. Your render could apply a subdivision process to counteract this. On the other hand, you can use parametric Boolean descriptions that would result in a vastly more highly accurate representation, with a much smaller file size. Again, how you choose to represent something would result in wildly varying levels of appearance of design. This is entirely why the constructor theory of life has an entire section on the appearance of design.
3.1.1 Appearance of design Something with the appearance of design is often described as “improbable” [27, 28]. This is misleading because probability measures are multiplicative; so that would mean that two independent objects with the appearance of design would have much more of that appearance than they do separately. But that is not the case when the two objects have unrelated functionalities (such as, say, internal organs of different organisms). In contrast, two organs in the context of the same organism, coordinating to the effect of gene prop- agation, do have a greater appearance of design than either separately. This can be expressed naturally in constructor-theoretic terms for programmable constructors. Consider a recipe R for a possible task T. A sub-recipe R? for the task T? is fine-tuned to perform T if almost any slight change in T? would cause T to be performed to a much lower accuracy. (For instance, changing the mechanism of insulin production in the pancreas even slightly, would impair the overall task the organism performs.) A programmable constructor V whose repertoire includes T has the appearance of design if it can execute a recipe for T with a hierarchical structure including several, different sub-recipes, fine-tuned to perform T. Each fine-tuned sub-recipe is performed by a sub-constructor contained in V : the number of fine-tuned sub-recipes performable by V is a measure of V ’s appearance of design. This constructor-theoretic definition is non-multiplicative, as desired..
Note how a constructor’s means to achieve a purpose can be represented as a tree of subtasks it performs defined in constructor-theoretic terms. As a more fundamental unification, this allow trees to cross boundaries in ways that the current conception obscures, such as into the applications that open files, and even information and knowledge itself. It becomes more clear, not less. And it excludes cases when multiplication is not applicable. So, the entire system of the file, the program that reads it, the knowledge in us, etc. can be represented at a fundamental, unified way in constructor theory. It can cross those boundaries and different levels of explanation, that might have been obscured or even ignored all together because there was no place for them in the current conception of physics. Now contrast this with FSCO/I. It’s focused on bits of information, which doesn’t scale and would result in wildly different results depending on how you choose to represent it, etc.critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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CR seems to be arguing that the concept of complex specified functional organization/information is superfluous and can be replaced by the term “well-adapted.”
Huh? First, I’d again point out, it’s well adapted to serve a purpose. What gives? Apparently, you think the “to serve a purpose” part is superfluous and can be replaced with nothing? Second, I’m suggesting it’s a more fundamental. It has universal reach. FSCO/I is a special case of being well adapted to serve a purpose. it does not scale. That’s as incoherent as suggesting I claimed we can replace 2+2=4 with mathematics. 2+2=4 is a special case of mathematics. For example, you can use Newton's laws to launch satellites into space. But once in orbit, you need general relativity to create a Global Positioning System. Newton’s laws are an approximation. They do not scale. They lack the reach of general relativity. It’s more fundamental. Right? Like Newton’s laws, CSFO/I does not scale. It lacks the same reach as “being well adapted to serve a purpose.“critical rationalist
March 31, 2023
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Alan Fox, "I’m perfectly happy in acknowledging the design aspect of living organisms. But the source of that design is the evolutionary process." Well that is not a surprise. Many leading Darwinists will readily admit that life overwhelmingly 'appears' to be designed,
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” - Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case. It is difficult enough to study what is happening now." - Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit - p. 138 (1988) “The real core of Darwinism … is the theory of natural selection. This theory is so important for the Darwinian because it permits the explanation of adaptation, the ‘design’ of the natural theologian, by natural means, instead of by divine intervention.” - Ernst Mayr - Foreword in Michael Ruse, Darwinism Defended: A Guide to the Evolution Controversies (Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley, 1982) Darwin's greatest discovery: Design without designer - Francisco J. Ayala - May 15, 2007 Excerpt: "Darwin’s theory of natural selection accounts for the 'design' of organisms, and for their wondrous diversity, as the result of natural processes,",,, Darwin's Explanation of Design Darwin's focus in The Origin was the explanation of design, with evolution playing the subsidiary role of supporting evidence. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8567.full The Ongoing Battle Against Darwinism — Moving Towards a New Biology - Mar 13, 2021 Excerpt: “It was one of the great merits of Darwin himself to show that the purposiveness of organic structure and function was apparent only. The teleology of adaptation is a pseudo-teleology, capable of being accounted for on good mechanistic principles, without the intervention of purpose, conscious or subconscious, either on the part of the organism or of any outside power” - Julian Huxley, one of the co-founders of the neo-Darwinian Synthesis - Evolution: The Modern Synthesis, Allen and Unwin, 1942, p 412 https://graham-pemberton.medium.com/the-ongoing-battle-against-darwinism-moving-towards-a-new-biology-5a0b9be1d389 Adaptation - by Richard C. Lewontin - 1978 Excerpt: Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each or­ganism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.,,, https://dynamics.org/~altenber/LIBRARY/REPRINTS/Lewontin_Adaptation.1978.pdf etc.. etc..
The fatal problem for Darwinists, (aside from the fact that they have ZERO real-time empirical evidence that unguided Darwinian processes, and natural selection in particular, can produce this overwhelming 'appearance of design', and/or overwhelming 'illusion of design'), is that in order for us to even be able to have an 'illusion of design' in the first place, 'real design' must be present somewhere in nature. Otherwise, It simply would be impossible for us to say that such and such is merely an 'illusion of design' if we did not first have 'real design' present somewhere in nature to compare the illusion of design to. But alas, for Darwinists there simply is no 'real design' to be found anywhere in nature in order for us to ascertain whether something is only an illusion of design or whether it is real design. According to Darwinian metaphysics, and especially with their denial of free will, not even human artifacts exhibit 'real design'. For instance, according to Darwinian metaphysics, Einstein himself was not responsible for discovering the theories of relativity.
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
In fact, Alan Fox himself has denied that he himself is responsible for writing, (and/or designing), his very own sentences.
BA77: “So AF holds that the ‘niche”, not AF himself, is responsible for the information that he himself is writing in his posts?” Alan Fox: “Yes, sort of, though I don’t know,,,,” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/at-evolution-news-for-darwinism-pregnancy-is-the-mother-of-all-chicken-and-egg-problems/#comment-771084
To state the obvious, this is insane. Since Alan Fox, via his denial of free will, is not really responsible for writing any of his own sentences, why should we believe anything that he is only 'appearing' to write? And not that I ever expect an honest answer from Alan Fox, but my question to him is, "If nothing in nature can be said to be 'real design', (not even your own sentences), how in blue blazes are you, or anybody else, able to tell whether something is only an illusion of design and that it is not real design? i.e. Exactly what is your measuring standard for differentiating 'real design' from that which is only an 'illusion of design'? Supplemental note as to how complete the Darwinist's denial of 'real design' is.: "It is purpose that must be denied in order to deny design in nature. So the mind, as well as teleology, must be denied. Eliminative materialism is just Darwinian metaphysics carried to its logical end and applied to man. If there is no teleology, there is no intentionality, and there is no purpose in nature nor in man’s thoughts."
Teleology and the Mind - Michael Egnor - August 16, 2016 Excerpt: From the hylemorphic perspective, there is an intimate link between the mind and teleology. The 19th-century philosopher Franz Brentano pointed out that the hallmark of the mind is that it is directed to something other than itself. That is, the mind has intentionality, which is the ability of a mental process to be about something, rather than to just be itself. Physical processes alone (understood without teleology) are not inherently about things. The mind is always about things. Stated another way, physical processes (understood without teleology) have no purpose. Mental processes always have purpose. In fact, purpose (aboutness-intentionality-teleology) is what defines the mind. And we see the same purpose (aboutness-intentionality-teleology) in nature. Intentionality is a form of teleology. Both intentionality and teleology are goal-directedness — intentionality is directedness in thought, and teleology is directedness in nature. Mind and teleology are both manifestations of purpose in nature. The mind is, within nature, the same kind of process that directs nature. In this sense, eliminative materialism is necessary if a materialist is to maintain a non-teleological Darwinian metaphysical perspective. It is purpose that must be denied in order to deny design in nature. So the mind, as well as teleology, must be denied. Eliminative materialism is just Darwinian metaphysics carried to its logical end and applied to man. If there is no teleology, there is no intentionality, and there is no purpose in nature nor in man’s thoughts. The link between intentionality and teleology, and the undeniability of teleology, is even more clear if we consider our inescapable belief that other people have minds. The inference that other people have minds based on their purposeful (intentional-teleological) behavior, which is obviously correct and is essential to living a sane life, can be applied to our understanding of nature as well. Just as we know that other people have purposes (intentionality), we know just as certainly that nature has purposes (teleology). In a sense, intelligent design is the recognition of the same purpose-teleology-intentionality in nature that we recognize in ourselves and others. Teleology and intentionality are certainly the inferences to be drawn from the obvious purposeful arrangement of parts in nature, but I (as a loyal Thomist!) believe that teleology and intentionality are manifest in an even more fundamental way in nature. Any goal-directed natural change is teleological, even if purpose and arrangement of parts is not clearly manifest. The behavior of a single electron orbiting a proton is teleological, because the motion of the electron hews to specific ends (according to quantum mechanics). A pencil falling to the floor behaves teleologically (it does not fall up, or burst into flame, etc.). Purposeful arrangement of parts is teleology on an even more sophisticated scale, but teleology exists in even the most basic processes in nature. Physics is no less teleological than biology. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/08/teleology_and_t/
Verse:
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
bornagain77
March 31, 2023
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But of course for months you have been in self discrediting denial of something so commonplace Wikipedia cannot but acknowledge it, much less leading voices. KF
*chuckles* I'm just disagreeing with you.Alan Fox
March 31, 2023
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And remember, I'm perfectly happy in acknowledging the design aspect of living organisms. But the source of that design is the evolutionary process.Alan Fox
March 31, 2023
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KF, if you are talking about Francis Collins, he's no friend of the ID "movement".Alan Fox
March 31, 2023
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