Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 70: Exploring cosmological fine tuning using the idea of a 3-D, universal printer and constructor (also, islands of function)

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Last time, we looked at how Kolmogorov Complexity can be used to quantify the information in functionally specific complex organisation, by using the formal idea of a 3-D universal printer and constructor, 3-DP/C:

. . . it is but a short step to imagine a universal constructor device which, fed a compact description in a suitable language, will construct and present the [obviously, finite] object. Let us call this the universal 3-D printer/constructor, 3-DP/C.

Thus, in principle, reduction of an organised entity to a description in a suitably compact language is formally equivalent in information terms to the object, once 3-DP/C is present as a conceptual entity. So, WLOG, reduction to compact description in a compact language d(E) is readily seen as identifying the information content of any given entity E.

For, d(E) is a program though it can simply be a functional organisational specification, as, causally in this logic-model world:

d(E) + 3-DP/C + n ==> E1, E2, . . . En.

Obviously, n is an auxiliary instruction setting the number of copies to be made . . . .

We thus have a formal framework to reduce any entity to a description d(E), which is informational and has as metric

I = length[d(E)],

where a chain of Y/N q’s will yield I in bits, on the Kolmogorov assumption of compactness. I use compact, to imply that we can get a good enough estimator of I by using something compact. We do not have to actually build a most compact language.

This can also be used to explore the idea of fine tuning, e.g. let us use Barnes; chart:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

Now, let us start at X, conceived as a summary of the cosmology of our observed universe, as d(E) fed into the 3-DP/C, with E here being say a simulation of the cosmos and its history:

d(E) + 3-DP/C + n ==> E1, E2, . . . En. n here would be a population of runs assuming a random element.

Now, instead, feed d(E) into a noisy channel so we begin a random walk in the space of cosmologies,

d(E) –> lossy, noisy medium –> d*(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E*1

d*(E) –> LNM –> d**(E) + 3-DP/C + 1 ==> E**1

etc.

Here, we can readily see how we can construct a map of possible outcomes, much as Barnes did and illustrates. Though of course one can also explore border zones algebraically etc.

The obvious result is that we see how our observed cosmos sits at a fine tuned operating point for a cosmos that is viable for life. (This also extends to exploring islands of function in configuration spaces in general.)

We see here how islands of function can have fitness landscapes allowing local hill climbing, but of course the issue of loss of function and locking into a peak arise:

So, now, we can use the 3-DP/C formalism to draw out what is involved in the idea of fine tuning, including of course, how intensely informational such a pattern is.

John Leslie is thought provoking:

One striking thing about the fine tuning is that a force strength or a particle mass often appears to require accurate tuning for several reasons at once. Look at electromagnetism. Electromagnetism seems to require tuning for there to be any clear-cut distinction between matter and radiation; for stars to burn neither too fast nor too slowly for life’s requirements; for protons to be stable; for complex chemistry to be possible; for chemical changes not to be extremely sluggish; and for carbon synthesis inside stars (carbon being quite probably crucial to life). Universes all obeying the same fundamental laws could still differ in the strengths of their physical forces, as was explained earlier, and random variations in electromagnetism from universe to universe might then ensure that it took on any particular strength sooner or later. Yet how could they possibly account for the fact that the same one strength satisfied many potentially conflicting requirements, each of them a requirement for impressively accurate tuning?” [Our Place in the Cosmos, The Royal Institute of Philosophy, 1998 (courtesy Wayback Machine) Emphases added.]

AND:

“. . . the need for such explanations does not depend on any estimate of how many universes would be observer-permitting, out of the entire field of possible universes. Claiming that our universe is ‘fine tuned for observers’, we base our claim on how life’s evolution would apparently have been rendered utterly impossible by comparatively minor alterations in physical force strengths, elementary particle masses and so forth. There is no need for us to ask whether very great alterations in these affairs would have rendered it fully possible once more, let alone whether physical worlds conforming to very different laws could have been observer-permitting without being in any way fine tuned. Here it can be useful to think of a fly on a wall, surrounded by an empty region. A bullet hits the fly Two explanations suggest themselves. Perhaps many bullets are hitting the wall or perhaps a marksman fired the bullet. There is no need to ask whether distant areas of the wall, or other quite different walls, are covered with flies so that more or less any bullet striking there would have hit one. The important point is that the local area contains just the one fly.” [Emphasis his.]

This fly on the wall metaphor has been famous, and aptly captures the issue of locality of fine tuning.

A modern watch movement, an example of both functionally specific, complex information and irreducible complexity of well-matched core functional parts

Where, too, we see that fine tuning leading to islands of function is a broad phenomenon, the bits and pieces of a complex system need to fit and work together for the whole to work.

This of course, brings us full circle to Paley’s famous watch.

Paley, in his time, could describe the intricate nature of contrivance leading to an artifact, a system well adapted to the purpose of time keeping. But, he had not the means to quantify the information involved, that would have to wait for over a century until we first found the idea of surprise and reduction of uncertainty leading to negative log probability metrics and informational entropy. Where, too, Jaynes et al were able to follow Szilard et al and draw a connexion between informational and thermodynamic entropy. In effect, the entropy of a macro observable entity is the average wanting information to specify microstate, given a description on macro observable state.

Then came Kolmogorov, and we can therefore use the formalism of a 3-DP/C to understand information content, functionality based on information implicit in organisation, and islands of fine tuned function amidst seas of non function, thus blind search challenge.

Paley, in his Ch 2, had a further contribution that has been even more underestimated. He saw that the additionality of self-replication vastly increased the complex functionality to be explained. This means that origin of life is even more complex than many acknowledge, and that origin of sustainable, novel body plans is even more challenging.

Coming back to focus, fine tuning at cosmological scale, the Nobel equivalent prize holder, Sir Fred Hoyle, has some choice words:

[Sir Fred Hoyle, In a talk at Caltech c 1981 (nb. this longstanding UD post):] From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has “monkeyed” with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.] . . .

also, in the same talk at Caltech:

The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn’t so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn’t give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrangements that would be useless in serving the puposes of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it’s easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. [ –> 20^200 = 1.6 * 10^260] This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem – the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn’t convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes – by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix.

. . . and again:

I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the [–> nuclear synthesis] consequences they produce within stars. [“The Universe: Past and Present Reflections.” Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]>>

Food, for thought. END

Comments
Q, Intelligent design is the scientific investigation of [candidate and tested] signs of design. That is all it needs to be to be very powerful and soundly scientific: are there observable signs of design, Y; are they highly reliable where we can directly compare observed origin, Y; are they present in the natural world, Y -- in cell based life, in body plans, in the physical cosmos. And this simple, straightforward, almost obvious, but equally obviously, it is unwelcome to many precisely due to the strength of the results so obtained. Of course, determined and sufficiently ruthless ideology driven objectors will therefore refuse to acknowledge how longstanding, simple, reasonable and responsible that is. See Wikipedia vs New World Encyclopedia on ID for a telling contrast. That -- frankly, dishonest -- ideological conduct is all too familiar from far too many cases of radicalism over the past century or two, but such a tactic always carries the implication: the sound and straightforward understanding they slander poses a severe threat to their ideological agendas, which cannot deal with it on the merits, so they resort to strawman and ad hominem tactics, subtle or blatant. Telling, not in their favour. KFkairosfocus
April 12, 2023
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Critical Rationalist @86, . . . And Critical Rationalist has STILL not been able to address my challenge to provide a simple definition of the target of his attacks, namely Intelligent Design. An accurate definition of Intelligent Design is STILL of primary importance to your criticism of Intelligent Design. If your definition is wrong, then your argument is irrelevant. You're critical of Intelligent Design, so please define what you're criticizing. -QQuerius
April 9, 2023
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CR @83, KF
KF: CR, no one here defends infallibility of our senses and perceptions, or actual reasoning. What is said is, self aware consciousness is self evident and undeniably true.
CR: This has already been addressed. (...) If you think you are Napoleon, the person you think you are because you think does not exist. So, it’s unclear how this actually “helps” in the sense you seem to think it does.
1.) I do something. 2.) From nothing nothing comes. 3.) I exist. “I”, in the premises and conclusion, refers to consciousness, the very “thing” that has self-aware conscious experience. So, in this argument, “I” does not refer to a social identity, such as “Napoleon.” This would have been crystal clear to you if you had read Descartes, who arrives at cogito ergo sum while performing radical doubt, which implies believing that all his memories are mistaken and there being no outside world at all.
CR: Should I expand on this?
Well, actually yes. Answer me this: do you doubt that you exist?
CR: If you have false or mistaken memories, the explanatory theories you use to interpret your experience would be false.
Again, read Descartes, who assumes all his memories to be mistaken prior to arriving at cogito.Origenes
April 8, 2023
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@Q Either ID makes specific claims about the designer or it doesn't. Ori doesn't seem to agree with you regarding the scientific status of ID.critical rationalist
April 8, 2023
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Kairosfocus, Obviously, Critical Rationalist prefers to defend whatever he considers critical rationalism by distorting or denying all historical, intellectual, and sensory knowledge. He's become the Samson chained to the pillars of reason to bring them down on society in retribution for challenges to his fantasy world. And Critical Rationalist has STILL not been able to address my challenge to provide a simple definition of the target of his attacks, namely Intelligent Design. The question then becomes, if discussion is unworthy of his self-proclaimed intellect, why is he wasting time with us. Maybe he's trying to convince himself that he has anything defensible. -QQuerius
April 7, 2023
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CR, to focus the fallacy: no, we only need adequate reliability to have good warrant. Infallibility is a strawman. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2023
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CR, no one here defends infallibility of our senses and perceptions, or actual reasoning. What is said is, self aware consciousness is self evident and undeniably true.
This has already been addressed. At best, the response to it has been to call it childish. What you keep ignoring is, any infallibility in a source cannot help us before our fallible human reasoning has had its say. What we have is criticisms failing. That's it. (Ori is an example of this in regards to 2+2=4, etc. Apparently, Ori doesn't thing he's a fallibilist because progress is made by defining words correctly?) If you think you are Napoleon, the person you think you are because you think does not exist. So, it's unclear how this actually "helps" in the sense you seem to think it does. Should I expand on this? If you have false or mistaken memories, the explanatory theories you use to interpret your experience would be false. And, therefore you would reach false conclusions from your experience. This would include the idea that you are Napoleon. Those theories do not come from experience. They come from theories that you, or other people, would have amassed over time, which would come from your memories, etc. For example, where do information theories come from? You remember them, refer to previously published documents, etc. You cannot infalably know the world wasn't created last Thursday, with false memories, along with all of those theories of information. Nor do you somehow continually interpret experience to mechanically derive those theories yourself, every moment. Right?critical rationalist
April 6, 2023
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CR, no one here defends infallibility of our senses and perceptions, or actual reasoning. What is said is, self aware consciousness is self evident and undeniably true. Further, error exists is much the same. So are LoI, LEM, LNC, as pervasive branch on which we sit first principles. So is 2 + 3 = 5. SETs are true, accurately describing reality. They are known to be true once one has adequate experience to understand. They are further true on pain of instant, manifest absurdities [of various kinds] on attempted denial. In the case of being self aware, to doubt or deny requires the said self aware consciousness. And so forth. No one is requiring infallible reasoning etc only reliability enough to bet the farm, e.g. when one crosses a busy street. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2023
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CR, kindly see CD in 70 and my response to him in 72. He asserted arcane and has been replied to. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2023
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@KF If we stub our toe, do we feel pain in our toe? No, we do not. That pain just seems localized to our toe. What comes from our toe are electrical impulses not pain impulses. The entire field of pain management is in its infancy. That we at one time thought pain was being emitted by our toes reflected a theory of our senses. So, no. It's unclear how I'm conflating anything. Our senses cannot be an infallible source of knowledge because they are theory laden. We accept them because they reflect hard to vary explanations of how the world works, which are not observed in the sense that they could be a foundation. Our experiences can be mistakenly interpreted. This does not mean that they cannot be corrected, infallibly, but that they are not a source that we can infallibly rely on as a last resort.critical rationalist
April 5, 2023
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And, if a formalism linked to the Turing machine approach and using Kolmogorov complexity is arcane, then ask those who refused to listen to informal summaries. KF
Where did I say it was arcane? That would be like saying 2+2=4 is arcane because it is a special case of mathematics. You can't make this stuff up.critical rationalist
April 5, 2023
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Kairosfocus @77, And still no answer from Critical rationalist either, perhaps for the same reason.
I’d just like Critical Rationalist (ONLY) to address my challenge and provide a simple definition of the target of his attacks, namely Intelligent Design.
-QQuerius
April 5, 2023
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AF, no cogent answer from you so we see predictable resort to antitheism and ideology. Meanwhile, patently you have no answer to cosmological fine tuning, which does call for a designer beyond the cosmos. KFkairosfocus
April 4, 2023
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The UD website was down all yesterday as it has been a lot lately. Caspian has disappeared. You are penning more arcane OPs. The OPs are getting repetitive. A harbinger or an omen?
Possibly the site owner has too many work commitments to keep a regular eye on this site and its glitches. I presume he'll notice when the ad revenue declines further. KF is a bit of an oddball when it comes to ID. His writings are not exactly inspirational. Anyway, in these times of political division descending into tribalism, with Donald Trump looking to retake the US presidency, the need for the ID figleaf has gone and we're back to the God-fearin' agin the Devil.Alan Fox
April 4, 2023
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PS, some of the record, from Lewontin:
[Lewontin lets the cat out of the bag:] . . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
Similarly, NSTA:
All those involved with science teaching and learning should have a common, accurate view of the nature of science. [--> yes but a question-begging ideological imposition is not an accurate view] Science is characterized by the systematic gathering of information through various forms of direct and indirect observations and the testing of this information by methods including, but not limited to, experimentation [--> correct so far]. The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts [--> evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed] and the laws and theories related to those [--> i.e. ideologically loaded, evolutionary materialistic] concepts . . . . science, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products [--> censorship of anything that challenges the imposition; fails to appreciate that scientific methods are studied through logic, epistemology and philosophy of science, which are philosophy not science] . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science [--> a good point, but fails to see that this brings to bear many philosophical issues], a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations [--> outright ideological imposition and censorship that fetters freedom of responsible thought] supported by empirical evidence [--> the imposition controls how evidence is interpreted and that's why blind watchmaker mechanisms never seen to actually cause FSCO/I have default claim to explain it in the world of life] that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument [--> ideological imposition may hide under a cloak of rationality but is in fact anti-rational], inference, skepticism [--> critical awareness is responsible, selective hyperskepticism backed by ideological censorship is not], peer review [--> a circle of ideologues in agreement has no probative value] and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic [= evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed by definition, locking out an unfettered search for the credibly warranted truth about our world i/l/o observational evidence and linked inductive reasoning] methods and explanations and, as such [--> notice, ideological imposition by question-begging definition], is precluded from using supernatural elements [--> sets up a supernatural vs natural strawman alternative when the proper contrast since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, is natural vs artificial] in the production of scientific knowledge. [US NSTA Board, July 2000, definition of the nature of science for education purposes]
Again, Monod:
In writing about naturalistic origins of life, in Chance and Necessity, Monod proposed that life is the result of chance and necessity. This reflects the naturalistic attitude, and is tied to the a priori rejection of design as a possibility highlighted by Lewontin thirty years later; yes, an assumption held to be pivotal to scientific “objectivity.” Clipping:
[T]he basic premise of the scientific method, . . . [is] that nature is objective and not projective [= a project of an agent]. Hence it is through reference to our own activity, con-scious and projective, intentional and purposive-it is as | makers of artifacts-that we judge of a given object’s “naturalness” or “artificialness.” [pp. 3 – 4] . . . . [T]he postulate of objectivity is consubstantial with science: it has guided the whole of its prodigious develop-ment for three centuries. [--> false!] There is no way to be rid of it, even tentatively or in a limited area, without departing from the domain of science itself. [--> ideological captivity to evolutionary materialistic scientism][p. 21]
Further to such, in a 1971 television interview, he asserted — tellingly — as follows:
[T]he scientific attitude implies what I call the postulate of objectivity—that is to say, the fundamental postulate that there is no plan, that there is no intention in the universe. Now, this is basically incompatible with virtually all the religious or metaphysical systems whatever, all of which try to show that there is some sort of harmony between man and the universe and that man is a product—predictable if not indispensable—of the evolution of the universe.— Jacques Monod [Quoted in John C. Hess, ‘French Nobel Biologist Says World Based On Chance’, New York Times (15 Mar 1971), p. 6. Cited in Herbert Marcuse, Counter-Revolution and Revolt (1972), p. 66.]
This is of course a Nobel Prize winner speaking and writing on the record. Chance and Necessity was in fact a highly influential, widely celebrated book. This is not some half baked soapbox debater.
So, the record is quite clear.kairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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CR, I do not control UD. As for anti-theism as a motive, that is actually a matter of longstanding record as appended; pretence otherwise is common but in the end revealing of agendas. My focus, however, has been that there is an ideological imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism [and fellow travellers], which led to establishing claimed mechanisms that are not fit for purpose, which are then used to suppress strong signs of design. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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Kairosfocus @64,
This has the further implication that hill climbing is a highly local phenomenon, in such a space.
Besides being trapped on hills or islands of fine-tuned functionality, there's no demonstrated evidence of this "climbing" occurring experimentally with genetic analysis. Popular examples all seem to involve the genetic disabling of a feature, the disabling of epigenetic suppression, or simply epigenetic expression. -QQuerius
April 3, 2023
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CD, see above. And, if a formalism linked to the Turing machine approach and using Kolmogorov complexity is arcane, then ask those who refused to listen to informal summaries. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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CR, kindly do not conflate transduction and signal transmission with conscious sensing.
Can you kindly point out where I did this? The idea that knowledge comes to us from our senses is highly problematic if our senses do not reflect not some kind of atomic operation. Rather, they depend on a long chain of hard to vary explanatory theories which, being prior to observation, are themselves not observed. Apparently, this is not problematic because some designer wanted it not to be problematic? And the designer gets want it wants by nature of merely wanting it?critical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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KF/65 The UD website was down all yesterday as it has been a lot lately. Caspian has disappeared. You are penning more arcane OPs. The OPs are getting repetitive. A harbinger or an omen? So, you think my "inability" to address the "design inference" is motivated by my anti-theism? I didn't realize that the "design inference" was a matter of theology. Nor am I quite clear on your term "design inference" divorced from the question: designed by whom? Because, you know, there is only one answer to that question and all roads lead to Christianity. And Christianity leads to Genesis and, well you know the story...chuckdarwin
April 3, 2023
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Jerry, utter infallibility is not the only degree of certainty that can provide adequate warrant for reliable knowledge. Your sight and memory, you know are fallible but under normal circumstances reliable. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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it’s unclear how observation can reflect some kind of infallible source for the physical world
Yet, everyone infallibility gets to the Walmart and knows exactly where to go when they enter. Sounds like some other really stupid comments made on UD before about the real world. I am looking out at the woods behind my house. If someone took a photo of these woods and didn’t tell me where the photo came from. My response would be that is behind my house. But here I am answering another person who comes here with stupid comments in the hope that the person will be ignored. But no, I know all stupid commenters must be answered while legitimate comments are ignored. So who is stupid? Answer: the pro ID people who constantly answer the stupid comments thinking it makes a difference but ignore legitimate observations. Not the people who bait them and who smile every time someone seriously replies to their nonsense.jerry
April 3, 2023
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CR, kindly do not conflate transduction and signal transmission with conscious sensing. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2023
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A scientific explanation of sense-impressions would include not just a redescription of them as patterns of neural firings but also the biological teleological function of those patterns, both what tends to cause them and whose those patterns tend to cause, as embedded in a biologically autonomous system capable of detecting and responding to environmental complexity.
My point, is. Those processes are not observed. They happen prior to observations. Sense impressions do not resemble what we eventually experience. Our senses are like scientific instruments. We accept the result we get based on the assumption they are configured correctly according to the theory of how they work. You wouldn't replace the lens in a microscope with a penny and expect to see bacteria, right? If you did, then you'd need some other explanation for how you're seeing bacteria, other than the microscope. Like it's a replay or digital feed from some other microscope that was configured correctly, had a lens, etc. Correct? IOW the observation of bacterial reflects a long chain of hard to vary explanatory theories, like optics, electromagnetism, etc. And all of those things are not observed. So, it's unclear how observation can reflect some kind of infallible source for the physical world.critical rationalist
April 3, 2023
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CD, you still seem to be playing at conflation of the design inference on sign [tracing to Plato in The Laws Bk X] with Biblical Creationism. This insistence on an invidious association strawman tactic in the face of due and longstanding correction shows that you cannot address the design inference soundly on its merits, and, likely, that anti-theism is a motivating and biasing force. The design inference on tested, observable, reliable sign, stands on its own merits as an exercise in scientific, inductive reasoning, modern sense; where inference to the best explanation is a case of argument by empirically grounded support. For this OP, the matter on the table is cosmological fine tuning, explored through the algebra of a 3-DP/C, which helps us understand the well known island of function fine tuning that has emerged since the 1950's in cosmology. Where, Sir Fred Hoyle, FYI, was a life long agnostic. KF PS, for reminder of record as cited in the OP, here is Hoyle:
>>[Sir Fred Hoyle, In a talk at Caltech c 1981 (nb. this longstanding UD post):] From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.]>> . . . also, in the same talk at Caltech: >>The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn't so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn't give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it's easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. [ --> 20^200 = 1.6 * 10^260] This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem - the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn't convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes - by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix. >> . . . and again: >> I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the [--> nuclear synthesis] consequences they produce within stars. ["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]>>
PPS, you are therefore aware of chs 5 - 7 in Descent.kairosfocus
April 1, 2023
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Q, yes, I am aware of cosmological fine tuning, discoverability as a case of fine tuning, the rare & privileged planet in spiral galaxy habitable zone, the Leslie flies on a wall model of local fine tuning, and more. This OP was about extending the 3-DP/C model to allow exploring how we can recognise fine tuning in a configuration space. It also allows us to see how islands of function in a sea of non functional configurations is a fine tuning problem. This has the further implication that hill climbing is a highly local phenomenon, in such a space. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2023
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CR, 58: Kindly, read the OP. Notice, I am using the 3-DP/C algebra to explore how cosmologies, physical models of the universe, may be described and allowed to wander about a configuration space. This allows us to see what would result, as for instance Luke Barnes has charted, for just one pair of key parameters. The X is where our cosmos sits, and the effects of variation are shown. In cosmology space, it turns out that there is a narrow operation zone compatible with life as we experience it; based on the logic of structure and quantity based on cosmos level physics. You of course say we observe just one cosmos, great observation, I assume you are aware of multiverse speculations: so, again there is a heads we win, tails you lose pattern. Instead, we are looking at cosmology and models for universes, generally run as computational simulations. This is valid and shows an originally unexpected pattern. What this OP does, is to help us view it by using a framework designed to draw out the information content of a complex configuration, E, i.e. d(E). Feed d(E) through a lossy, noisy channel before going to the 3-DP/C, and we now have a way to do a random walk, with different outcomes coming out of the simulation. Back in the 50's it was noted that O, C abundance was sensitive to certain nuclear parameters, by Hoyle and Farmer, now it is dozens. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2023
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So, we do not experience anything directly, even if it’s sitting right in front of us
How people over think things. We all get to the Walmart store by the same route. We shop in the same aisle for the same things which we share with others. We drive different cars for the same trip. This is just one of a typical million interactions with others sharing the same experiences of the outside world. We use the same or very similar procedures to build the roads, bridges, parking lots for this experience. All are shared with millions of others. So yes, we do see the world in the same way as others. There can always be minor differences but nothing major and when there are major differences, it is explored to explain why. So can we bury this perception issue. It is useless and at best irrelevant.jerry
April 1, 2023
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@58
We do not experience sense impressions for what they really are – namely electrical crackles, right? So, we do not experience anything directly, even if it’s sitting right in front of us. So much for our senses reflecting an atomic, infallible means of accessing the outside world to us directly.
I would not be so quick to infer from "a scientific theory of sense-impressions redescribes them as patterns of neuronal firings" to "therefore, we do not experience physical things as they are". A scientific explanation of sense-impressions would include not just a redescription of them as patterns of neural firings but also the biological teleological function of those patterns, both what tends to cause them and whose those patterns tend to cause, as embedded in a biologically autonomous system capable of detecting and responding to environmental complexity. This does not get us all the way to the absolute metaphysical verities that onto-theologians have longed for, but it does give us all the pragmatic realism needed to make sense of everyday experience and its sophisticated extension, science.PyrrhoManiac1
April 1, 2023
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While Chuckdarwin continues to avoid denouncing the ugly racism implicit in Darwinism, let me instead comment on Critical Rationalist's response @58. Critical Rationalist, You seem obsessed with the desire to avoid a "fine tuner." In @41, I laid out the two major possibilities. Then in @46, I asked the question
How are the fine-tuned parameters determined in the first place? Are they inevitable? If so, did they exist before space-time, mass-energy, gravity, and everything else came into existence and in what form?
The answer to the question isn't that we need another universe to compare ours to. That's hopeless since we cannot perform experiments on other universes. So instead of simply giving up, physicists have calculated what would happen if any of the seemingly independent constants of the universe were slightly different. Curiosity is a mark of intelligence. And rather than immediately rejecting the evidence on ideological grounds, scientists ask why such values all seem to be critical for the existence of the universe. They would ask the questions that I asked above and consider the cogent response of Kairosfocus @48 involving some "superlaw." -QQuerius
April 1, 2023
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