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Adam, Eve, Richard Buggs, and Dennis Venema: Could Adam and Eve have existed?

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Dennis Venema replies to Buggs, insisting that Adam and Eve could not likely exist. Geneticist Richard Buggs thinks that they could have.

Dennis VenemaFrom Venema at BioLogos:

The key here is that one individual can only have at most two alleles of any gene. A population reduction to one breeding pair would mean that at most, four alleles of a given gene could pass through the bottleneck – in the case where both individuals are heterozygous, and heterozygous for different alleles. The population would then have to wait for new mutation events to produce new alleles of this gene – a process that will take a significant amount of time. Since this would happen to all genes in the genome at the same time – a reduction to a maximum of four alleles – we would notice this effect for a long time thereafter as genetic diversity was slowly rebuilt across the genome as a whole.

Richard
Richard Buggs

So, a bottleneck to two individuals would leave an enduring mark on our genomes – and one part of that mark would be a severe reduction in the number of alleles we have – down to a maximum of four alleles at any given gene. Humans, however, have a large number of alleles for many genes – famously, there are hundreds of alleles for some genes involved in immune system function. These alleles take time to generate, because the mutation rate in humans is very low. This high allele diversity is thus the first indication that we did not pass through a severe population bottleneck, but rather a relatively mild one (estimated, as we have discussed, at about 10,000 individuals by current methods).

Image result for Adam and Eve public domain
Adam and Eve

Another effect that a bottleneck to two individuals would produce is that there would be no rare alleles after the bottleneck. All alleles would have a frequency of at least 25%. As the population expanded after such an event, those alleles would stay common, and only new mutations would produce less common alleles. What we observe in humans in the present day is that many alleles are rare – even exceedingly rare. The distribution of alleles in present-day humans looks like it comes from an old, large population – not one that passed through an extreme bottleneck within the last few hundred thousand years, which is when our species is found in the fossil record. Thus the observation that we have many alleles of certain genes and the distribution of allele frequencies both support the hypothesis that humans come from a population, rather than a pair. More.

Over to Buggs. This is getting to be fun…

See also: Adam and Eve and the Skeptics, Episode 2: Geneticist Richard Buggs replies

Adam and Eve debut at the Skeptical Zone: In other words, we don’t really know if they could have existed because the human race seems very improbable anyway. But it is high time the question was liberated from the Sunday armchair of theistic evolution, to say nothing of its occasional personal dramas.

Geneticist defends possible Adam and Eve in Nature: Ecology and Evolution

and

Geneticist: Adam and Eve could have existed

Comments
ronvanwegen @37, Nobody comes to God unless the Son calls him or her. It is neither for you nor the Catholic Church, nor any other Church, to judge how anybody interprets the Bible. Salvation comes neither from you nor any Church. Give it a rest.FourFaces
November 14, 2017
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The Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit defined the canon of scripture. You're welcome! So, where was the greatest authority then? The Bible or the Catholic Church? Well, duh! So, what does the Bible say? "...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) But, since Luther, every Christian is THE interpreter of the Bible then that verse (and any other) can mean pretty much anything they want it to mean. Which results in such travesties as "Homosexual acts good!" in one "church" and "Homosexual acts bad!" in another" etc. From the one Bible - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! That's confusion and confusion is not of God. Have at it individual protestant interpreters. Irrespective of what you come up with it will have no authority behind it other than your own. Give it up guys - it hasn't worked for 500 years and it sure ain't workin' now.ronvanwegen
November 14, 2017
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FourFaces, Thanks. Best wishes.cmow
November 13, 2017
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cmow, I have many favorite passages in the Bible such as: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Notice that he did not say that we get eternal life for believing that the Bible is infallible. Another one of my favorites is this one: "Search and you shall find." This last one is important to me because most of my work consists of searching the metaphorical passages for hidden scientific meaning. I found some amazing things. But that's for another place and time. See you around.FourFaces
November 13, 2017
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FourFaces, No, the translations are not inspired (not the lovely KJV, not the Textus Receptus, not even the LXX). Only the original language (Hebrew, Greek, and some Aramaic), and in fact, only the autographs, which we don't have, but which we can be confident of via the science of textual criticism. Thanks for feeling sorry for me...I guess. I was actually thinking the same towards you. I don't think you need to affirm inerrancy to be a Christian (there are new converts to Christianity who may not even have even read a Bible, much less considered inerrancy). But I am worried that your low view of Scripture will lead you away from God, if it hasn't already. Based on some of your shallow comments and verbiage about Canon, translations, and so forth, I question whether you have a deep understanding of the issues. Inerrancy aside, disciples of Jesus tend to value Scripture and thus defend it, but you can barely say anything positive about it except 'you can find God in it'. The subtext of your comments is disturbing in that sense. As a Christian brother, FourFaces, tell me -- what is your favorite passage in the Bible? Rather than focusing on the negative, please encourage me with a bit of the Bible that you do value. And at that, the last word can be yours, and we can move on to ID.cmow
November 13, 2017
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All science, so far. You mean we were not discussing life emerging from dirt or the universe creating itself from nothing or computers achieving consciousness via some magic called emergence or uploading human consciousness into a machine? You're right. We were discussing science.FourFaces
November 12, 2017
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All science, so far.MatSpirit
November 12, 2017
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cmow @30, Wait, wait, wait — so you don’t believe in inerrancy, fine, but now you are saying that every one who does is guilty of idolatry? Yes, absolutely. The errors, untruths and contradictions in the Bible are widely documented. Insisting that the Bible is infallible is the work of the Devil. Many have lost their faith after becoming aware of the problems in the Bible. Heck, the translators themselves introduce their own biases and even their cluelessness into it. Did God inspire those translators? Why didn't he pick just one translation then? I feel sorry for you, cmow. But then again, maybe not. There are many con artists and liars in all the Christian communities around the world. the Bible is God’s Word, revealed to us. BS. The Bible is a compilation of many books written by men. It is a book of study for Christians and Jews. Yes, you can find God in it but not everything in it is from God.FourFaces
November 12, 2017
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FourFaces @24 -- Wait, wait, wait -- so you don't believe in inerrancy, fine, but now you are saying that every one who does is guilty of idolatry? That is a bold statement. Are you sure? You know -- nobody thinks Paul is infallible, right? Those who believe in inerrancy do so because God is infallible, and the Bible is God's Word, revealed to us.cmow
November 12, 2017
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mikeenders, Do you use Wikipedia? Is Wikipedia 100% accurate and reliable? If not, why do you use it? Your circularity argument is bogus. You protest too much. You sound like one of those con artist Bible thumpers.FourFaces
November 12, 2017
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"No it is not. I tested the admonition and it sounds perfectly logical to me." Bad logic almost always seems perefectly logical to those who hold it. its not up for debate - if the Bible is to be questioned you cannot cite the bible telling you to test it as a reliable indication that you should. Thats what you did and its undobutedly circular.mikeenders
November 12, 2017
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mikeenders @26, – completely circular. No it is not. I tested the admonition and it sounds perfectly logical to me. If it looks illogical to you or anyone else, that is irrelevant AFAIC. No skeptic is impressed that ... I don't care what skeptics think. They are irrelevant to my salvation. I know who my savior is and why I am being saved. This is all that matters.FourFaces
November 12, 2017
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"You’re kidding me? That’s idolatry, IMO, the work of the Devil. Even the Bible teaches us to test all things. This includes the Bible itself." I've read some howlers from Bible rejectors claiming to be Christian but this takes the cake.If the Bible really teaches that we should "test" it then we would have to test the teaching that we should test all things - completely circular. The problem with Biologos is similar to your problem. They think in some tortured illogical way that invoking a metaphor anywhere there is an apparent contradcition with science they make religion or Christianity more palatable. In fact they just make it laughable. No skeptic is impressed that you can reinterpret a passage that nowhere states its metaphorical as metaphorical. They intuitively realize if you can do that with one book then you can do it with all of them including the Gospels.mikeenders
November 12, 2017
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J-Mac @23, For a Bible worshipping Christian, you sure speak with a forked tongue.FourFaces
November 12, 2017
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cmow @21, One century or two later. What difference does it make? Even if it was just one year later, it would not have taken away from the point of my comment. Remember that we were discussing the claim that the entire Bible is infallible, a claim that I strongly dispute. The point of my previous comment is that one cannot claim that a private letter by Paul to his friend and disciple Timothy is the "inerrant word of God. Paul, being a Jew, certainly did not count his letter to Timothy as part of scripture. And why should anyone accept that early "Church fathers", being the fallible men that they were, had the authority to decide what whether or not a letter written by another fallible man (Paul erroneously thought Jesus was coming back in his lifetime) should be accepted by Christians as the "inerrant word of God". Worshipping the Bible as the inerrant word of God is idolatry, IMO. I say this as a Christian. One must test all things.FourFaces
November 12, 2017
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20@ FourFaces Your abilities to contradict yourself are truly amusing... You can start your own church. Call it the christian Swedish buffet church; i.e. choose what you want to believe as you please...God don't matter... Have a nice life!J-Mac
November 12, 2017
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cmow @ 21: Nicely done. Thanks for the research.Truth Will Set You Free
November 12, 2017
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FF @20, Your intellect is truly dizzying. I'd question your treatment of 1 Timothy. What are you referring to when you say the Catholic Church didn't include 1 Timothy in the NT canon until centuries later? Several early church fathers quoted it in their writings and supported it as NT canon -- Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Polycarp, Tertullian, Origen, etc... It was included in the Muratorian Canon, and in Codex Sinaiticus. In fact, the only rejection we know of was by Marcion, but his reasons were wrapped up in the heresy he promoted and was excommunicated for anyway. Point being, by the end of the 2nd Century, 1 Timothy -- and for that matter 2 Timothy and Titus (the pastoral epistles) -- are all pretty well entrenched in the canon and never really doubted until the skepticism of the 19th century.cmow
November 11, 2017
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J-Mac 2Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.” I guess you didn’t do your own search… Funny. However, you need to do your homework before talking about searches. Several questions come up. Did you know that the verse you quoted was taken from a private letter written in Greek by a Jew named Paul to a Jewish-Greek man named Timothy and that it was not included in the so-called New Testament until centuries later by the Catholic Church? Is Paul your God? If not, is his opinion God's opinion? If not, is he correct? What scripture was he referring to? Was he referring to the Torah or the Greek Septuagint translation? Did you know that the Catholic Church also included in the NT the writings of a Jew named James who may have been the brother of Jesus (it is reported that Jesus did not like him and did not count him as one of his disciples)? Did you know that Paul did not like James either because James set himself up as the head of the Church in Jerusalem and would send spies (including Peter) to Paul's gentile Churches? My point is that you got to do your homework before you start quoting scriptures to others.FourFaces
November 11, 2017
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@8 FourFaces Conduct your own search. I did... 2Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." I guess you didn't do your own search... BTW: Did you know that only few decades ago people who believed that the universe had a beginning (because the Bible indicates that) were laughed at? Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the havens and the earth...J-Mac
November 11, 2017
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@17 Truth Will Set You Free, I agree...I have never met a homosexual who would be comfortable with the lifestyle or truly happy... I've also learned that the addiction and suicide ratse are very high among them as well as among people with gender issues...J-Mac
November 11, 2017
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FourFaces @ 16; My uncle is homosexual and wishes he wasn't. Says that there is nothing inherently "fun" about the lifestyle.Truth Will Set You Free
November 11, 2017
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rvb8, if I were gay I would quite proudly say. This is like saying that you would be proud of being schizophrenic. Why would anybody be proud of an abnormality? Being gay is obviously a mental dysfunction most likely caused by bad parenting at an early age which triggered an epigenetic transformation. Unfortunately although I know, and am friendly to many gays, (since university), I am sad to say, I am not a part of that fun culture. I, too, I am friend of many gays. But I don't see it as a fun culture. My gay friends all have problems with depression and obsessive behavior. They are not a happy bunch, regardless of the propaganda. This is why, as a Christian, I have compassion for gays. I know they are suffering.FourFaces
November 11, 2017
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bb @11:
John Sanford’s “Mendel’s Accountant” genetic modeling software is said by him to demonstrate the Biblical account.
Where does Sanford say this?Mung
November 11, 2017
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Venema:
The key here is that one individual can only have at most two alleles of any gene.
Yes and designed, continued recombination can produce more from that. The problem is Venema and others are approaching this from a standard evolutionary point of view. Yet if Adam and Eve were real then it is clear that point of view goes out the window and you have to start over.
The population would then have to wait for new mutation events to produce new alleles of this gene – a process that will take a significant amount of time.
That is only in a blind watchmaker scenario, Dennis. Try again, this time think about it first.ET
November 11, 2017
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rvb8 -- The expression, ‘you wouldn’t Adam and Eve it’, is Cockney rhyme for, ‘you wouldn’t believe it.’ Others include, ‘The ole trouble and strife’, for ‘wife’. Or, if you’re in her good books, ‘The ole huggs and kisses’, for ‘The Mrs.’ Or, ‘Me ole China Plate’, for, ‘Me ole mate.’ Get the gist? You 'neglected' to mention Berkshire Hunt! Which itself has been shorted to 'berk'.JVL
November 11, 2017
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FourFaces, if I were gay I would quite proudly say. Unfortunately although I know, and am friendly to many gays, (since university), I am sad to say, I am not a part of that fun culture. As for, 'East London gay expression'?? Ummm, no, it is called cockney rhyme; You're American per chance? The expression, 'you wouldn't Adam and Eve it', is Cockney rhyme for, 'you wouldn't believe it.' Others include, 'The ole trouble and strife', for 'wife'. Or, if you're in her good books, 'The ole huggs and kisses', for 'The Mrs.' Or, 'Me ole China Plate', for, 'Me ole mate.' Get the gist? Tell me FourFaces, are you the stereotypical puritan buzzkill, who thinks, laughter, merriment, and a jolly good time are the fastest way to, 'ole Nick!'?rvb8
November 10, 2017
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There are 2 bottlenecks in the Bible, which says Adam & Eve lived for almost 1,000 years. Such a robust genome might very well tolerate the mutations caused by such a low population density. The second bottleneck was the flood, where the world's population was reduced to 8 people, that had similar lifespans to the original pair. The Bible says longevity dramatically decreased in subsequent generations. John Sanford's "Mendel's Accountant" genetic modeling software is said by him to demonstrate the Biblical account.bb
November 10, 2017
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rvb8, “You wouldn’t Adam and Eve it!” Is that an East London gay expression?FourFaces
November 10, 2017
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As the English, or more accurately, the East End Londoners are fond of saying; "You wouldn't Adam and Eve it!" :)rvb8
November 10, 2017
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