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Adam and Eve could be real?: Genes’ introns and exons tell different stories here. Who to believe?

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We’ve been looking at a new book, Science and Human Origins, by Ann Gauger, Doug Axe, and Casey Luskin (Discovery Institute Press, 2012), in which Gauger takes issue with Templeton winner Francisco Ayala’s claim that genetics shows that there cannot have been a literal Adam and Eve.

“Cannot” is a big word, one that prompts investigation.

See also: Breaking: Adam and Eve are scientifically possible

Adam and Eve possible?: Ayala’s contrary claim built in favourable assumptions

Here’s another brief excerpt, not enough to justify being a noviewer (not reading the book, but still holding forth on it):

Phylogenetic confusion

Ayala created his phylogenetic tree based on exon 2 sequences of the HLA-DRB1 genes, while Bergström et al. used intron 2 sequences. A third study by Doxiadis et al. examined the phylogenetic histories of chimp, macaque and human HLA-DRB1 genes again, but this time using sequences taken either from exon 2 or introns 1-4. Surprisingly, the tree alignments using exon 2 or using introns 1-4 give markedly different pictures of the gene’s phylogenetic history, even though both sets of sequences come from the very same genes. There is a substantial difference in the phylogenetic relationships. Exon 2 comparisons typically showed cross-species associations, while intron comparisons showed within-species associations.

It is clear that the intron sequences group according to species, whereas exon 2 sequences show no species-dependent relationships.

[Explanatory figure follows]

This should be surprising. Although trees based on gene comparisons sometimes do not show the same phylogenetic relationships as the species themselves do, as is the case for the exon 2 sequences, when this happens it indicates something unusual is going on.

It’s even more unusual that trees drawn from adjacent segments of the same gene disagree with one another. It’s not that exon 2 is highly variable and the introns are more conserved, because this is not the case. Intron lineages can differ quite a bit from one another. Rather, the intron lineages group together according to species, while the exon 2 lineages do not.

Some evolutionary biologists try to explain this discordance between the HLA-DRB1 trees by arguing that this proves that these genes have their origin in deep time, before the lineages of chimps, humans and macaques separated, and that it is the exon 2 data that defines the gene’s history. Others think that there has been cross-species shuffling of ancient peptide-binding motifs between different exon 2 sequences over time, but leaving the intron lineages unchanged. It is not clear, however, how such a patchwork cross-species assortment of exon 2 sequences could have been acquired without disrupting the species-specific introns. Furthermore, this would require that the incipient species’ populations intermingled for a prolonged period of time. The intermingling is highly unlikely to have lasted for thirty million years, though, which is the last time macaques, chimps, and humans supposedly shared a common ancestor. And the fact that the intron sequences do associate by species, with branch lengths as long or longer than the exon branch lengths, argues that many of these intronic lineages have been evolving independently for quite a while, indeed some as long as thirty to forty million years. Therefore this phylogenetic discordance is something that cannot be explained by common ancestry, especially when one considers an additional piece of information: The HLA-DRB1 region of chromosome six shows little or no signs of recombination.

Note: David Klinghoffer formally introduces the book here.

Comments
This may be of interest;
De Novo Origin of Human Protein-Coding Genes - November 10, 2011 Excerpt: The de novo origin of a new protein-coding gene from non-coding DNA is considered to be a very rare occurrence in genomes. Here we identify 60 new protein-coding genes that originated de novo on the human lineage since divergence from the chimpanzee. The functionality of these genes is supported by both transcriptional and proteomic evidence.,,, Here we identify 60 new protein-coding genes that originated de novo on the human lineage since divergence from the chimpanzee, supported by both transcriptional and proteomic evidence. It is inconsistent with the traditional view that the de novo origin of new genes is rare. http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002379;jsessionid=0ADFB2D28FD590F0785D9A7D2D1D4569
Of note: The actual count for de novo genes in humans is now up to over 1000 and possibly as high as 7000,,,
Human Gene Count Tumbles Again - 2008 Excerpt: Applying this technique to nearly 22,000 genes in the Ensembl gene catalog, the analysis revealed 1,177 “orphan” DNA sequences.,,, the researchers compared the orphan sequences to the DNA of two primate cousins, chimpanzees and macaques. After careful genomic comparisons, the orphan genes were found to be true to their name — they were absent from both primate genomes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080113161406.htm From Jerry Coyne, More Table-Pounding, Hand-Waving - May 2012 Excerpt: "More than 6 percent of genes found in humans simply aren't found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over fourteen hundred novel genes expressed in humans but not in chimps." Jerry Coyne - ardent and 'angry' neo-Darwinist - professor at the University of Chicago in the department of ecology and evolution for twenty years. He specializes in evolutionary genetics. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/from_jerry_coyn060271.html Study Reports a Whopping "23% of Our Genome" Contradicts Standard Human-Ape Evolutionary Phylogeny - Casey Luskin - June 2011 Excerpt: For about 23% of our genome, we share no immediate genetic ancestry with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. This encompasses genes and exons to the same extent as intergenic regions. We conclude that about 1/3 of our genes started to evolve as human-specific lineages before the differentiation of human, chimps, and gorillas took place. (of note; 1/3 of our genes is equal to about 7000 genes that we do not share with chimpanzees) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/study_reports_a_whopping_23_of047041.html A False Trichotomy Excerpt: The common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and human Y chromosomes are “horrendously different from each other”, says David Page,,, “It looks like there’s been a dramatic renovation or reinvention of the Y chromosome in the chimpanzee and human lineages.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-false-trichotomy/
Moreover:
Could Chance Arrange the Code for (Just) One Gene? "our minds cannot grasp such an extremely small probability as that involved in the accidental arranging of even one gene (10^-236)." The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds” 2004: - Doug Axe ,,,this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10^77, adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences." http://www.mendeley.com/research/estimating-the-prevalence-of-protein-sequences-adopting-functional-enzyme-folds/
As well, just changing one protein into another protein of similar functionality is found to be extremely problematic as well:
When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://www.biologicinstitute.org/post/18022460402/when-theory-and-experiment-collide Corticosteroid Receptors in Vertebrates: Luck or Design? - Ann Gauger - October 11, 2011 Excerpt: if merely changing binding preferences is hard, even when you start with the right ancestral form, then converting an enzyme to a new function is completely beyond the reach of unguided evolution, no matter where you start. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/luck_or_design051801.html
bornagain77
June 21, 2012
June
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This may be of interest;
De Novo Origin of Human Protein-Coding Genes - November 10, 2011 Excerpt: The de novo origin of a new protein-coding gene from non-coding DNA is considered to be a very rare occurrence in genomes. Here we identify 60 new protein-coding genes that originated de novo on the human lineage since divergence from the chimpanzee. The functionality of these genes is supported by both transcriptional and proteomic evidence.,,, Here we identify 60 new protein-coding genes that originated de novo on the human lineage since divergence from the chimpanzee, supported by both transcriptional and proteomic evidence. It is inconsistent with the traditional view that the de novo origin of new genes is rare. http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002379;jsessionid=0ADFB2D28FD590F0785D9A7D2D1D4569
Of note: The actual count for de novo genes in humans is now up to over 1000 and possibly as high as 7000,,,
Human Gene Count Tumbles Again - 2008 Excerpt: Applying this technique to nearly 22,000 genes in the Ensembl gene catalog, the analysis revealed 1,177 “orphan” DNA sequences.,,, the researchers compared the orphan sequences to the DNA of two primate cousins, chimpanzees and macaques. After careful genomic comparisons, the orphan genes were found to be true to their name — they were absent from both primate genomes. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080113161406.htm From Jerry Coyne, More Table-Pounding, Hand-Waving - May 2012 Excerpt: "More than 6 percent of genes found in humans simply aren't found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over fourteen hundred novel genes expressed in humans but not in chimps." Jerry Coyne - ardent and 'angry' neo-Darwinist - professor at the University of Chicago in the department of ecology and evolution for twenty years. He specializes in evolutionary genetics. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/from_jerry_coyn060271.html Study Reports a Whopping "23% of Our Genome" Contradicts Standard Human-Ape Evolutionary Phylogeny - Casey Luskin - June 2011 Excerpt: For about 23% of our genome, we share no immediate genetic ancestry with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. This encompasses genes and exons to the same extent as intergenic regions. We conclude that about 1/3 of our genes started to evolve as human-specific lineages before the differentiation of human, chimps, and gorillas took place. (of note; 1/3 of our genes is equal to about 7000 genes that we do not share with chimpanzees) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/study_reports_a_whopping_23_of047041.html A False Trichotomy Excerpt: The common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and human Y chromosomes are “horrendously different from each other”, says David Page,,, “It looks like there’s been a dramatic renovation or reinvention of the Y chromosome in the chimpanzee and human lineages.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-false-trichotomy/
Moreover:
Could Chance Arrange the Code for (Just) One Gene? "our minds cannot grasp such an extremely small probability as that involved in the accidental arranging of even one gene (10^-236)." http://www.creationsafaris.com/epoi_c10.htm The Extreme Complexity Of Genes - Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8593991/ "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds” 2004: - Doug Axe ,,,this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10^77, adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences." http://www.mendeley.com/research/estimating-the-prevalence-of-protein-sequences-adopting-functional-enzyme-folds/
As well, just changing one protein into another protein of similar functionality is found to be extremely problematic as well:
When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://www.biologicinstitute.org/post/18022460402/when-theory-and-experiment-collide Corticosteroid Receptors in Vertebrates: Luck or Design? - Ann Gauger - October 11, 2011 Excerpt: if merely changing binding preferences is hard, even when you start with the right ancestral form, then converting an enzyme to a new function is completely beyond the reach of unguided evolution, no matter where you start. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/luck_or_design051801.html
bornagain77
June 21, 2012
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Doncha love that word "creationiam"? What was once almost universally accepted is now treated as an object of scorn. The great irony is that modern science is friendly to "creationism." We mean the real stuff--empirical science, not theory. Go look at it. We invite you. Open any medical journal and tell me what you are looking at in the research papers. Tell me what the magnificent complexity being uncovered in those studies implies. Warm ponds? Simple theories of origins? Not really. Those who rely upon the stigma attached to "creationism" have now become the conservatives. They are defending an historical position that seems destined to fall.allanius
June 21, 2012
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Nick, I know a lot of people have responded to you and I don't want you to feel "piled on." But your statement was provocative, you must admit. ID is a big tent. It can accommodate many views. Most creationists would feel comfortable with ID, so they are supporters of ID. There are some non-creationists who support ID. I admit that there are only a few, but their ideological background does not tell us if ID is right or wrong. After all, if Hitler said that 2 plus 2 is 4 and Gandhi said 2 plus 2 is 5, would you agree with Gandhi because he was a good person while Hitler was not? And if creationists WANT ID to be true does this therefore make it untrue? One definition of maturity is that you do something even though your parents want you to do it. In other words, you do something (or believe something) regardless of whether or not people you don't like or otherwise disagree with believe similarly. You could believe in ID too one day! Dont make the conversion any more painful for your ego than it has to be. Also, this blog talks about a lot of issues, theology, climate change, creationism, biology, geology, history, computer science etc. There is no law that it must not dip its toe into creationism and it does not mean that ID is the same thing as creationism even though they share some mutual support. And finally, scientists that discuss this issue often refer to the hypothetical first people as "adam and eve" even though they fully support evolution. It's just an easy way to identify the idea.Collin
June 21, 2012
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"Good luck with the “ID isn’t creationism, we swear!” line from here on out…" The essence of your rebuttal being that if the argument intersects Philosophy that it must be religion. Of course, Evolution is to date completely free of empirical validation. [1] And so since Evolution is a purely Philosophical affair then we know that you consider your work with evolutionary biology is a simple matter of theological seminary. Not that you should consider this a rehab of Gauger's statement that ID is a better explanation. But if you wish to claim that Philosophy, a discipline that defines itself as non-empirical, is not science then we're in good agreement. [1] Addenda for the uninformed: We have not observed macroevolution or its causal mechanisms in action as yet. Stating that sex and Down's Syndrome is a necessary and sufficient cause for everything is just as bad as stating that since every structured system with which we're familiar with was designed by a monkey wearing pants, that ID is a necessary and sufficient cause.Maus
June 21, 2012
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Nick, Have you read the book yet? We argue that intelligent design is a better explanation for human origins than neo-Darwinism, by showing some kind of guidance or information is required to get sufficient anatomical change in the time allowed. But that's not necessarily special creation. We show why Ayala's population genetics arguments area flawed, and cannot rule out a two person bottleneck. We also discuss some surprising gene trees that are hard to explain by common descent alone. But we draw no final conclusion and do not argue for special creation. We don't know enough yet to say one way or another based on the science. So, would you care to address our scientific arguments?gauger
June 21, 2012
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We're looking forward to commenters who have read Gauger's Chapter 5 and can offer an information-based opinion. People are free to go on offering non-Attention: UD troll mod opinions, of course. Free country, this Internet of ours ... :) But it'll be curious if commenters who can legitimately claim a knowledge of genetics shout labels from the sidelines and don't actually engage with what Gauger, a respectable researcher, is saying.News
June 21, 2012
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Wait, Nick, are you saying belief that "Adam and Eve were specially created like it says in Genesis" requires giving a person the label 'creationism'? If so, we have different views of that term. Likewise, a majority of Muslims, Christians, Jews and Baha'is would be 'creationists' according to your ideological labelling. Does the definition of 'creationism' on NCSE include reference to Adam and Eve? I just looked; No, it doesn't. Oh, wait, and NCSE is not actually an advocacy group, it is a worldview-neutral 'educational membership organisation' of people simply promoting 'good science' in the USA yet who don't seem to care one iota about 'abuse of science' by ideological 'scientism.' ;) That's like Richie Rich ironic!Gregory
June 21, 2012
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Nick Matzke, have you read what Ann Gauger has to say in Chapter 5 about Francisco Ayala's hypothesis? If you disagree, why? As someone with a position in a science faculty, could you not make a better use of your time by actually offering a rebuttal than by behaviing like a superannuated bore at the American Scientific Affiliation? (Ooh! Ooh! I've proven my stupid point just by hearing that this researcher is accused of creationism!) We bet you can.News
June 21, 2012
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Nick Matzke: Do you have proof that Adam and Eve weren't specially created? If you do, please offer it. What does a "mitochondrial Eve" mean? Does this mean nothing to you? Do you have a whole line of ancestors to Homo sapiens covering the millions upon millions of years it would need for such an evolution to occur? What is your proof exactly?PaV
June 21, 2012
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OK then. And ID isn't creationism, it's just that the ID movement is widely promoting a book arguing that Adam and Eve were specially created like it says in Genesis. Good luck with the "ID isn't creationism, we swear!" line from here on out...NickMatzke_UD
June 21, 2012
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We will read your comments with interest when you have read the book. We don't mind if you choose to call them Ada and Evan.News
June 21, 2012
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You didn't say two humans you said specifically, Adam and Eve. It just seems like apologetics. But to answer your question News, I do plan on getting the book, I'll probably download it later today.Starbuck
June 21, 2012
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Of course it is. If it's a legitimate question whether one protozoan started all life on Earth (the common ancestor), it is a legitimate question whether more than two humans were needed to start our species.News
June 21, 2012
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It's a perfectly legitimate scientific question whether it's possible for two humans to have started the human race.ForJah
June 21, 2012
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Starbuck, would you like to unpack that comment, or else shed some light on it? By the way, have you ordered the book? Or read any part of Chapter 5 other than what's been posted here?News
June 21, 2012
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This is from the "no really we're not creationists" department.Starbuck
June 21, 2012
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This excerpt from Dr. Gauger's, Axe's, Luskin's, book, reminds me of a little these videos which took Richard Dawkins to task for making a false claim from genetic evidence. (In fact Dawkins had made the grand claim that it was 'the best evidence' for Darwinism):
Dawkins Claimed Best Evidence For Evolution Refuted - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfFZ8lCn5uU Dawkins Caught Lying for Darwin - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnYik52Y5rI
bornagain77
June 21, 2012
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