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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Here:

Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
Victoria @232
When a programmer programs something it runs without him or her. Does the program in DNA need some outside help to run or can it run on its own. I’d like to hear everyones answer!
[Emphasis mine] What do you mean by "a programmer programs something"? What do you mean by "a programmer"? What do you mean by "something"? To me "something" is the name of an old song written by George Harrison and performed by the British band The Beatles. :) When you wrote "a programmer programs..." what did you mean by "programs"? What is that 'programming' action? What do you mean by "it runs"? Can it walk too? :) Can you provide an example of a computer program that works isolated, on its own, without any influence from or interaction with anything else? Where do computer programs work in? Which level of computer program are you referring to? Operating systems, user apps, drivers? What program in DNA are you referring to? Can you provide an illustration? Thank you.Dionisio
June 22, 2016
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Python
Interesting wording – “if this really is a gene”. It makes me wonder if you’re implying that this DDX11L2 sequence (more specifically, the longer of the two transcripts) is somehow functional and/or important. I’d like to hear your reasons for that, if indeed that is what you believe. It’s pretty simple: we had two separate chromosomes – one with a standalone DDX11L2 transcript – and the other with a transcription factor binding site. They fused. So what is stopping that binding site creating a longer DDX11L2 transcript? My advice would be to take whatever Tomkins says with a very large grain of salt, and try get him here to defend himself.
I have no idea if it is a functioning gene. I only saying if it is then the fusion theory is in trouble. I am skeptical of Tomkins evidence as I am with yours. I would like to see this debate proceed and appreciate your counter arguments. As you can see I am also skeptical of common decent and at this point believe it is probably wrong.bill cole
June 21, 2016
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Victoria:
When a programmer programs something it runs without him or her. Does the program in DNA need some outside help to run or can it run on its own.
There's no evidence of a program in DNA running on its own.Mung
June 21, 2016
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wd400: Please. None of your examples supported your rather remarkable claim that no program or plan is needed in biology. Your examples simply conflated the well-known utilization of chemistry with an alleged sufficiency of chemistry. If there is any "basic" biology that needs to be understood, it is that the one does not equal the other. Any claim or suggestion or hint that by studying "basic biology" we will discover that it's chemistry all the way down is just that -- a bluff. Worse, it flies in the face of any rational understanding of the overall organism and the fundamental engineering issues that need to be addressed. It is ironic that you keep throwing out an accusation of "stories," when the materialistic "explanation" you keep pushing is nothing but a made up story. But, hey, anytime you want to support your claim as to the miraculous sufficiency of chemistry to produce what we see in biology, please feel free. I'd be happy to elevate it to a head post for discussion.Eric Anderson
June 21, 2016
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@bill cole, #244: "I think your analysis showing binding strength is interesting and I would like to hear a counter argument." Me too. I especially would like to hear from Tomkins himself, but I've sent him a dozen emails without a response. In fact, just looking at my emails now, the last time I got a response directly from him was in September 2014, about a week before I submitted my paper demonstrating that his 70% human to chimp DNA similarity result was wrong. By all means, you're welcome to contact him to get him to show up here and defend himself - his email address is in post #110. I think the homology arguments is questionable. I agree telomeres and binding sites both have repeat counts but most the binding sites you showed have different sequences then TTAGGG repeats. Saying it looks like is weak analysis. I'm not sure I'm following: what is wrong with having different sequences to TTAGGG repeats - something we've known since at least 1989 ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC318019/ )? Since the sub-telomeric regions are NOT made up purely of TTAGGG repeats, why would we expect perfect TTAGGG repeats at the fusion site? That's what Tomkins said he expects, but if he submitted his work to proper journals he'd be torn apart. If this is really a gene then this puts chimps and man sharing a common ancestor on life support. There is no good explanation how that sequence was generated in almost infinite sequential space. Interesting wording - "if this really is a gene". It makes me wonder if you're implying that this DDX11L2 sequence (more specifically, the longer of the two transcripts) is somehow functional and/or important. I'd like to hear your reasons for that, if indeed that is what you believe. It's pretty simple: we had two separate chromosomes - one with a standalone DDX11L2 transcript - and the other with a transcription factor binding site. They fused. So what is stopping that binding site creating a longer DDX11L2 transcript? My advice would be to take whatever Tomkins says with a very large grain of salt, and try get him here to defend himself.ThickPython
June 21, 2016
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Python Thanks for the link. I think your analysis showing binding strength is interesting and I would like to hear a counter argument. I think the homology arguments is questionable. I agree telomeres and binding sites both have repeat counts but most the binding sites you showed have different sequences then TTAGGG repeats. Saying it looks like is weak analysis. If this is really a gene then this puts chimps and man sharing a common ancestor on life support. There is no good explanation how that sequence was generated in almost infinite sequential space.bill cole
June 20, 2016
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It hardly matters, but this is just silly
I don’t expect to either, because the claim of “basic biology” being able to answer the key question posed was a bluff, a deflection.
The "bluff" comes with specific examples you could have learned about. The rest of this thread and that rediculous "Mp4" post make it clear you're rather continue with your favoured analogies, so I won't bother in future.
wd400
June 20, 2016
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@bill cole, #97: "I also think the existence of the intron that has a binding site inside the fused chromosome 2 telomere that python agreed is real, is very problematic. I would like to see this debated aggressively. Hi Bill, I have gotten around to posting on my blog about this. Please see: https://roohif.wordpress.com/2016/06/19/chromosome-2-fusion-its-a-binding-site-whoopty-frikkin-do/ThickPython
June 18, 2016
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Dionisio @ 238: Unfortunately not. I don't expect to either, because the claim of "basic biology" being able to answer the key question posed was a bluff, a deflection. Although, as the thread proceeded, it occurred to me that perhaps your question was the target of the comment, not mine :) So maybe the "basic biology" comment was not directed at me. :)Eric Anderson
June 18, 2016
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Eric Anderson @217 Did you get an answer to your question @217?Dionisio
June 18, 2016
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Germanicus: Here's a recap of our chat: 214 by G 215 by D 230 by G 233, 235, 236 by DDionisio
June 18, 2016
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Germanicus @230
[...] how can you explain him that [...] ?
If you know the discussed subject well, then you should have no problem explaining it to anyone, regardless of their knowledge level. For example, you may want to see gpuccio's explanations posted in this site.Dionisio
June 17, 2016
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Germanicus @230
[...] how can you explain him that this model is not appropriate as this is not related to how the development of biological organism works?
Why isn't it appropriate? Why isn't it related? Do you know exactly how the development of biological organisms works?Dionisio
June 17, 2016
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The Placenta Problem: How Common Descent Fails - Ann Gauger - June 17, 2016 Excerpt: I'll quote a review paper on syncytins. These are the people who discovered syncytins, and they have done great work. Yet they are forced into a corner by their own work and the idea of common descent.,,,
“... syncytins are 'new' genes encoding proteins derived from the envelope protein of endogenous retroviral elements that have been captured and domesticated on multiple occasions and independently in diverse mammalian species, through a process of convergent evolution. Knockout of syncytin genes in mice provided evidence for their absolute requirement for placenta development and embryo survival, via formation by cell-cell fusion of syncytial cell layers at the fetal-maternal interface. These genes of exogenous origin, acquired 'by chance' and yet still 'necessary' to carry out a basic function in placental mammals, may have been pivotal in the emergence of mammalian ancestors with a placenta from egg-laying animals via the capture of a founding retroviral env gene, subsequently replaced in the diverse mammalian lineages by new env-derived syncytin genes, each providing its host with a positive selective advantage.”
Rather than postulating six independent, random capture events in placental development, they are now postulating at least one more, a founding syncytin leading to a primitive placenta, then the other syncytins to replace that one in each lineage. Each replacement must have had a clear selective advantage as time went on to make the replacement possible, and each must be the outcome of a random series of events. To say it again, the common descent prediction is that there must have been a founding syncytin in the first mammal with a placenta, or something else that functioned in syncytin's place, in order for the primitive placenta to arise and subsequently be passed to all mammalian clades. For which there is no evidence, and may never be. Can common descent explain the unexpected observation of six independent origins for the placenta? No. Could it predict it? No. Common design has an explanation, but not one that will be palatable to my interlocutors. The designer used the same idea six different times to produce the same outcome in six different "designs" (clades). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2016/06/the_placenta_pr102930.html
bornagain77
June 17, 2016
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Germanicus @230 You vaguely attempted to answer my first question @215 and did not answer the second question which required a number or a range of numbers to be clear. Please, try again. Are you sure you want to discuss seriously?Dionisio
June 17, 2016
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Germanicus @230:
Usually one is really an expert (due to years of education and work) in few of them, and in these fields one can really master the discussion. For the others one has to accept to engage at different levels and be ready to learn more also from the own opponent. Usually a degree of humility is wise and this should be inversely proportional to the expertise level.
Quite right. You make a good point. I guess all of us are probably a bit too animated from time to time when we feel strongly about something, and your caution of the need for humility is well taken. ----- There are a couple of things that, at least in my case, prompt a bit of zealous discussion from time to time: First, wd400, while clearly a very intelligent guy who knows a lot about biology, tends to love to debate minutiae while studiously avoiding the more fundamental underlying issues that are the real heart of the disagreement. In the present case, for example, as detailed @204, 205, yes, we all know that biology utilizes chemistry in its operation. But the failure to distinguish between necessary and sufficient conditions is a basic logical mistake, and there doesn't seem to be any effort to think beyond a narrow myopic view. Just more examples thrown out about how chemistry is involved. And simply asserting that nothing but chemistry is required is both unsupportable and highly questionable, based on statements by others in the field or even a cursory mental review of what is involved in building an organism. Second, when skeptics raise questions about the adequacy of the materialistic storyline, they are typically met with handwaving responses, including those like, "Well, you need to study more basic biology." But when we ask what "basic biology" the experts have in mind that would answer the questions raised, we are met with silence or further insults. Third, although your point about being an expert in a field is well taken, deferring to the so-called "experts" is a dangerous exercise. Particularly when those "experts" have been indoctrinated through years of secondary, post-secondary, and further academia into a particular viewpoint -- the very viewpoint that is under scrutiny. Particularly when those "experts" hold to a worldview that is challenged by the innocent questions being raised about design. It would be hard to find another field where the traditional "expertise" is more at odds with examining the questions posed. Unfortunately, time and again in this particular debate, we have found that the so-called "expert" brings more bias and intellectual baggage to the debate than anyone else. Furthermore, while it is good to be knowledgeable -- even an expert, in some narrow, discrete aspect of biology -- the primary issues we are dealing with have less to do with a particular organism or a specific chemical reaction than with basic logic, common sense, and a willingness to sit back and think through the issues. So the things I tend to focus on, for example, are less about expertise in a highly-narrow aspect of biology and more of a litmus test to tease out irrational thought and cognitive bias. Fourth, our confidence in the "experts" is not increased when the response to perfectly thoughtful and reasonable questions is to ignore that there is even an issue, to pretend the answers are already in hand, to assert that materialism inevitably holds the key even if it doesn't have an answer yet, to claim that only the "experts" are qualified to examine and speak on the issue, or to make vague insults about the questioner's need to brush up on the basics. Particularly, as I said, when the self-proclaimed expert is never quite able to identify precisely which "basics" he thinks will answer the question he conveniently refused to engage. This smacks more of an effort to protect one's position of expertise and one's worldview from challenge, than to honestly seek the truth. ----- None of this is an excuse for poor manners or insults, and I apologize if I have been offensive. However, perhaps it can help explain at least some of the background of the back and forth, not just on this thread, but for a long time running.Eric Anderson
June 17, 2016
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Origenes, you write
Explain by what mechanisms DNA determines... the membrane patterns and the position of membrane targets.
What is known about these "membrane patterns"? Is it possible to know it?! Does DNA determine it and if not what does?Victoria
June 17, 2016
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Hi Eric, wd40, germanicus and everyone else! I've been trying to follow this discussion and I have a few questions. Eric A said
that the parts will automatically come together by dint of chemistry, that nearly everything else other than the parts list is just junk, that no broader plan or program is required to build an organism.
When a programmer programs something it runs without him or her. Does the program in DNA need some outside help to run or can it run on its own. I'd like to hear everyones answer!Victoria
June 17, 2016
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I guess Meyer is talking about Torso because that's the membrane bound protein that specifies the poles of the egg and the location of bicoid.wd400
June 17, 2016
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Dionisus @215, In the context (discussion between Origenes and Wd400) I meant at least “basic”. See e.g. @150 where Origenes tried to estimate the amount of “information” that has to be “stored” in the DNA to build e.g. a human brain. The model proposed is like a mapping in which each neuronal connection is described in term of an individual spatial co-ordinate; how can you explain him that this model is not appropriate as this is not related to how the development of biological organism works? I see inevitable to suggest him to read first some texts, papers or follow some basic course in the university about gene expression, regulatory network, etc. before continuing to move in a completely wrong direction. Of course your question is more general and so more difficult to answer. It is clear that a person cannot have complete knowledge in all the fields (complete related to the current status of knowledge, as there is no end in the human learning). Usually one is really an expert (due to years of education and work) in few of them, and in these fields one can really master the discussion. For the others one has to accept to engage at different levels and be ready to learn more also from the own opponent. Usually a degree of humility is wise and this should be inversely proportional to the expertise level.Germanicus
June 17, 2016
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WD400: I guess the “membrane target” in the bicoid case is Torso. Interestingly, Torso doesn’t have a precise “pattern and position” in the membrane, it’s everywhere within the egg.
So why is it that you guess that Torso is a specified spatially localized membrane target, which provides "crucial information—spatial coordinates—for embryological development"? Here is a clue: not making sense and writing unintelligently is not an argument. Just like Torso you are all over the place. If you want to actually learn about this subject here might be a place for you to start.Origenes
June 17, 2016
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Dionosio @220: Yep! ;) https://uncommondescent.com/just-for-fun/evolutionary-theorists-discover-how-mp4-videos-work/Eric Anderson
June 16, 2016
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By quoting wd400 as follows:
All I can say (again) is I think you should study some biology before you commit to this neovitalism out whatever it is you are imagining.
and
That people continue to say things as ignorant as the last two comments really says something.All I can say (again) is I think you should study some biology before you commit to this neovitalism out whatever it is you are imagining.
I'm now accused of not understanding biology and (gasp!) tribalism, because I noted that wd400 resorted to personal attacks and has thus conceded the argument. No, wd400 and Germanicus, there was nothing biological or tribal in my post. I simply identified wd400's ad hominem attacks, to which you both responded with (drum roll) MORE ad hominem attacks! LOL Here's a clue. Don't respond to this message with yet more ad hominem attacks. ;-) -QQuerius
June 16, 2016
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There are literally hundreds of proteins that control the growth and aggregation of cyctoskeletal elemts (they will also happily form some of structures they form in cells if they are kept in solution). I guess the "membrane target" in the bicoid case is Torso. Interestingly, Torso doesn't have a precise "pattern and position" in the membrane, it's everywhere within the egg. It's only functional at either pole of the cell because it is activated by "torso-like" protein, which is expressed by nurse cells at either end of the egg. So, in this case transcription factors and enchancers that drive torso-like expression in nurse cells.wd400
June 16, 2016
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WD400, Explain by what mechanisms DNA determines the structure and location of the microtubules in the cytoskeleton, the membrane patterns and the position of membrane targets. This is all essential for Bicoid and Nanos RNAs to be transported to their proper position and to be functional. How does that work?Origenes
June 16, 2016
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wd400
That’s a different question than is addressed here, but the short answer is mutation, drift and selection.
This is where we disagree but we can take it up later. Thanks for your clear position.bill cole
June 16, 2016
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Origines, As I said, a new embryo inherits from the egg cell and (in some species) the maternal environment. But those are in turn the result of the genetics of the mother. Bicoid is a useful example, in fact, since the gene gets is name for the fact offspringgenerated by a biocoid mutant fail to produce any anterior features. Bill, That's a different question than is addressed here, but the short answer is mutation, drift and selection.wd400
June 16, 2016
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WD400: Don’t suppose Meyer gives any examples?
Meyer gives several examples of epigenetic information. Let's have a look at one of them: - - - - - MEMBRANE PATTERNS Another important source of epigenetic information resides in the two-dimensional patterns of proteins in cell membranes.18 When messenger RNAs are transcribed, their protein products must be transported to the proper locations in embryonic cells in order to function properly. Directed transport involves the cytoskeleton, but it also depends on spatially localized targets in the membrane that are in place before transport occurs. Developmental biologists have shown that these membrane patterns play a crucial role in the embryological development of fruit flies. Membrane Targets For example, early embryo development in the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster requires the regulatory molecules Bicoid and Nanos (among others). The former is required for anterior (head) development, and the latter is required for posterior (tail) development.19 In the early stages of embryological development, nurse cells pump Bicoid and Nanos RNAs into the egg. (Nurse cells provide the cell that will become the egg—known as the oocyte—and the embryo with maternally encoded messenger RNAs and proteins.) Cytoskeletal arrays then transport these RNAs through the oocyte, where they become attached to specified targets on the inner surface of the egg.20 Once in their proper place—but only then—Bicoid and Nanos play critical roles in organizing the head-to-tail axis of the developing fruit fly. They do this by forming two gradients (or differential concentrations), one with Bicoid protein most concentrated at the anterior end and another with Nanos protein most concentrated at the posterior end. Insofar as both of these molecules are RNAs—that is, gene products—genetic information plays an important role in this process. Even so, the information contained in the bicoid and nanos genes does not by itself ensure the proper function of the RNAs and proteins for which the genes code. Instead, preexisting membrane targets, already positioned on the inside surface of the egg cell, determine where these molecules will attach and how they will function. These membrane targets provide crucial information—spatial coordinates—for embryological development. - - - 18. Poyton, “Memory and Membranes”; Edidin, “Patches, Posts and Fences.” 19. Frohnhöfer and Nüsslein-Volhard, “Organization of Anterior Pattern in the Drosophila Embryo by the Maternal Gene Bicoid”; Lehmann and Nüsslein-Volhard, “The Maternal Gene Nanos Has a Central Role in Posterior Pattern Formation of the Drosophila Embryo.” 20. Roth and Lynch, “Symmetry Breaking During Drosophila Oogenesis.” [Stephen Meyer, 'Darwin's Doubt', ch. 14]Origenes
June 16, 2016
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wd400
Not sure I understand the question, Bill. The nuclear export sequence is a chemical signal, encoded in the nucleotide sequence of a protein, no?
Yes, thats right. What is the source and process that created that code? Just chemistry?bill cole
June 16, 2016
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Eric Anderson, Origenes, PaV, bornagain77, bill cole, Querius Sorry to disappoint you guys, but at the bottom every computer software is just a bunch of tiny electronic impulses wildly dancing around. That's all it is, OK? Forget about design. Stop using that word. That's just an illusion, total nonsense. Got it? :)Dionisio
June 16, 2016
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