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Science and Human Origins conclusion: It IS possible we came from just two parents

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In a just-published book, Science and Human Origins, Ann Gauger et al took issues with some popular beliefs. Some asked whether their work commits the sin of creationism.

Well, as noted earlier, if it is legitimate to ask whether all life descended from a primordial cell, it is legitimate to ask whether all human life came from two parents. You can call them Adam and Eve or Ada and Evan. Or Geek and Granola..

The principle question is whether the bottle’s neck is so narrow. Here is Gauger et al’s conclusion:

Reconsidering the Evolutionary Story

I chose to look at the HLA-DRB1 story because it seemed to provide the strongest case from population genetics against two first parents. If it were true that we share thirty-two separate lineages of HLA-DRB1 with chimps, it would indeed cause difficulties for an original couple. But as we have seen, the data indicate that it is possible for us to have come from just two first parents.

See also: Breaking: Adam and Eve are scientifically possible

Adam and Eve possible?: Ayala’s contrary claim built in favourable assumptions

Adam and Eve could be real?: Genes’ introns and exons tell different stories here. Who to believe?

Moreover, the data indicate that DNA similarity is not going to be a simple story to unravel. There are already regions of human DNA known to more closely resemble gorilla sequences than chimp sequences.22 Now we have sequences that resemble macaque DNA, a primate not part of the hominid group. Furthermore, when adjacent regions of DNA yield different evolutionary trees, linked to species that diverged well before the putative most recent common ancestor of chimps and humans, something unusual is going on.

This result was a surprise to me, and threw me back into a consideration of the whole story of our common descent from ape-like ancestors. I already knew from my own research that similarity of form or structure was not enough to demonstrate that neo-Darwinian common descent was possible. I knew that genuine protein innovations were beyond the reach of naturalistic processes. I therefore began to re-examine everything
I knew or thought I knew about human origins. I reviewed paleo-anthropology, evolutionary psychology and population genetics research articles, I reviewed popular books and textbooks. I applied strict logic to the story of what would be required for our evolution from great apes.
As a result of all this reading and reflection, although I was always skeptical about the plausibility of human evolution by neo-Darwinian means, I have now come to wonder about the extent of common descent as well.

Currently, neo-Darwinism is the accepted explanation for our origin. It may be, though, that as we continue to investigate our own
genomes, the Darwinian explanation for our similarity with chimps—namely, common descent—will evaporate. We may discover additional features in our genome that defy explanation based on common ancestry. As evidence of common descent’s insufficiency as a theory grows, alternate theories will need to be tested.

But one thing is clear right now: Adam and Eve have not been disproven by science, and those who claim otherwise are misrepresenting the scientific evidence. [emphasis in original]

Note: In this and in previous excerpts, journal reference numbers have been omitted.

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Comments
Wrong, as usual... again you have no idea what ID claims and it shows.
This is a plainly ignorant thing to say when I am in the process of reviewing a book by the DI's leading workers. I cannot purport to know what everyone claims but I do indeed know what *those authors* claim. And that is what I am commenting on. I don't think you're in the position to claim to speak for an imagined, unified ID front. I'm sure that Behe, Gauger, Luskin, Axe, Demski, Hunter amongst others associated with the DI all have different ideas about what intelligent design entails, just as various evolutionary biologists do for evolution. I don't know if you have read S&HO yet or not, but a substantial part of the book is aimed directly at casting doubt on common descent for humans specifically in an explicitly Christian context. It is obvious that the authors don't accept common descent - Luskin refers to our "supposed" common ancestor with chimps. Gauger claims there is insufficient molecular or morphological evidence to conclude this common ancestor. This is the basis for what I have said.paulmc
June 26, 2012
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paulmc- Evolution does not expect a nested hierarchy based on characteristics. In order to have a nested hierarchy based on characteristics those characteristics have to be A) immutable and B) additive. Evolution is not like that. Also with a gradual evolution we would expect to see a blending of characteristics which would be OK for a Venn diagram but not for a nested hierarchy. Then there is the fact that the theory of evolution says NOTHING about the origins of living organisms, which means it would be OK with many trees. BTW a common design would create a nested hierarchy. Heck clades are based on similar characteristics, ie a common design.Joe
June 26, 2012
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A series of mutations happened over many generations that allowed this substantial metabolic change in the E. coli strain.
All that occurred was the citrate was allowed into the E. coli. Read the paper, Paul. Geez paul, ID is not anti-evolution. Buy a vowel.
No? ID is certainly against evolutionary novelty being generated by mutation, selection and drift, as both Gauger in Chapter 1 and Axe in Chapter 2 show. And against universal common descent. Pretty major components of evolution, to my mind.
Wrong, as usual. ID is not against universal common descent, ask Dr Behe. ID is against blind and undirected chemical processes producing more than two new protein-to-protein binding sites- again you have no idea what ID claims and it shows. And again with Lenski- his experiment supports baraminology, not universal common descent via accumulations of random mutations. And definitely no new machinery was constructed. But then again you don't appear to know much about what actually happened. No surprise there...Joe
June 26, 2012
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why is it if very common structures are found between the deerlike creature and whales, that’s evidence of evolution, but, if it’s found between the eye of a human and the eye of an octopus, that’s evidence of convergence.
Well, you have to consider that in the context of systematics. The shared structures between terrestrial artiodactyls and whales are predicted to be conserved from their common ancestor, while the eyes in humans and octopuses are derived traits - i.e. not shared. It is only by forming a nested hierarchy of characters - either morphological or genetic - that we can make sense of these things and make decisions about basal character states and derived ones. If common design were the explanation, no nested hierarchy would be formed. There are strong similarities between the human and octopus camera eyes, and similar genes are expressed in the two species. The evolutionary history of these genes show that they were present in the basal bilaterian that gave rise to both lineages - so even though the eyes in humans and octopuses have separetely evolved, they have done so from a common set of genes. There is a fairly thorough treatment here.paulmc
June 26, 2012
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Hi es58, I think that it's a good question, and the wider context is important for understanding how evolution is purported to work. The broader point I was hoping to make was that there is no preordination in evolution, which is a problem for the type of approach that Gauger and Axe have taken. That means that a question such as "at what point will the e-coli develop new tissues, organs, multi-cellularity?" is not actually answerable. Why would we expect E. coli develop multicellularity? If framed in terms of fitness, how could we say that a multi-cellular analogue of E. coli would be 'better' than the current one? Even this approach is wrong, however. Any purported benefits of multi-cellularity are not accessible to E. coli --- positive selection cannot 'see' further than the next local fitness peak. In other words, stepwise, positive selection is not how major transitions and long-term evolutionary change happen. It is in this way that Darwin was somewhat wrong, although he had no way to know that at the time he was writing. I realise that evolution is often portrayed in this way --- positive selection shapes all the important traits that define species. Undoubtedly, such +ve selection is important, but not in the all-powerful way that some people portray. When we take the example of the transition from terrestrial ancestor to fully marine contemporary whales and dolphins, the problem seems enormous. However, it is not completely uncommon amongst the vertebrates. Several separate groups of mammals within the Carnivora have also made this transition to differing extents also --- I am thinking of seals, otters, polar bears. Within the birds, penguins are largely marine, as well. But the cetaceans have made a fuller and more remarkable transition. How can this transition be explained? It is worth considering that we have a fairly substantial fossil record showing the progressive transition to the marine environment in this lineage. We can therefore make only marginally indirect observations of much of the structural changes that occurred, and this allows us to consider a mostly likely scenario for that transition. This helps to reduce the guesswork involved, and hopefully reduces the doubt that the transition really occurred. But the major hurdle that you quite fairly point out, is that there are more morphological changes in the cetaceans than there are in E. coli. Why should this be, when there are many more replications of E. coli? There are two major reasons. Firstly, cetaceans are complex, and multicellular. Much of their change is change to regulatory genes that affect the timing of events in their development, and the major features of their terrestrial ancestry are anatomically quite obvious. Secondly, cetaceans have much smaller populations and therefore experience substantially weaker purifying natural selection. This means that they are less restricted in many aspects of their evolution than are large bacterial populations. I realise the idea of weaker selection being a creative factor in evolution may seem bizarre, but the world is a bizarre place :)
the 2 environments of these non-changing vs highly changing creatures don’t seem so different to me so, it’s like, there’s an answer either way, but it’s whichever answer is convenient at the time
At the DNA level, E. coli is indeed changing. E. coli genomes are far more variable than are those of any multicellular species. But the strong selective contraints limit how much outward change we observe (and of course there are fewer things to regulate in E. coli than a baleen whale).
If you’re following this: Can you point me in a direction that could clarify where I’m off? Also, how much study do you think it would require for me to get to a point where I could understand the answer clearly?
Well, I think the only way that you are off target is that you have expectations about predicting large evolutionary trajectories. Such expectations are unrealistic. The Lenski cit+ lineage of E. coli demonstrates the importance of rare, contingent events in shaping evolutionary trajectories. I understand that this might seem like a frustrating limitation, or even a fudge. But, we can also learn much from stasis, and the more 'routine', day-to-day types of evolutionary change that occur. The fact that most lineages don't make frequent, large shifts tells us much about evolution and its constraints. Those contraints and limits on evolution are fundamental to understanding how it proceeds. It is rather a technical read, but I would strongly recommend Michael Lynch's 2007 book, 'The Origins of Genome Architecture'. Lynch emphasises the importance of non-adaptive processes in shaping multicellular life, which I think is one of the most underappreciated aspects of biology, not just for the public, but for biologists. I hope this goes some way towards answering your question.paulmc
June 26, 2012
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@paulmc one further question: why is it if very common structures are found between the deerlike creature and whales, that's evidence of evolution, but, if it's found between the eye of a human and the eye of an octopus, that's evidence of convergence. Thank you.es58
June 26, 2012
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@paulmc hello, you wrote: The metabolism of citrate required a non-adaptive step that occurred thousands of generations before citrate was metabolised. here's what I'm sure is a dumb, rambling comment/response/question: if it took this long to get this result, at what point will the e-coli develop new tissues, organs, multi-cellularity, etc I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but often feel that answers I've seen to questions like this are of the form: if it never happens/happened, it's because it was already fit the way it was, and didn't need to change in that way (like jelly fish, coelcanth etc, that don't change for eons) because the environmental pressures weren't so powerful but, if a small deerlike creature can move back to the water (without just drowning) and change all the way to a whale, thousands of changes, and no where near the number of generations or offspring that the e-coli has the advantage of experiencing, then that's because their environmental pressures were so great they needed to adapt and, the 2 environments of these non-changing vs highly changing creatures don't seem so different to me it just seems likes it's asking an awful lot of the listener to buy with very little concrete evidence so, it's like, there's an answer either way, but it's whichever answer is convenient at the time; If you're following this: Can you point me in a direction that could clarify where I'm off? Also, how much study do you think it would require for me to get to a point where I could understand the answer clearly?es58
June 26, 2012
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All that occurred was now the citrate was allowed to pass through the cell’s membrane. All the machinery to metabolize the citrate was already in place.
A series of mutations happened over many generations that allowed this substantial metabolic change in the E. coli strain. You can try and downplay that as trivial, but not metabolising citrate is a defining aspect of E. coli. The point being that Gauger and Axe's limit on preordanined mutations does not actually shut real-world adaptation down. It only shows us that what never happened is unlikely to happen.
Geez paul, ID is not anti-evolution. Buy a vowel.
No? ID is certainly against evolutionary novelty being generated by mutation, selection and drift, as both Gauger in Chapter 1 and Axe in Chapter 2 show. And against universal common descent. Pretty major components of evolution, to my mind.
That is because genetic drift has never been observed to do anything, so relying on it = relying on sheer dumb luck
Firstly, I was talking about genetic drift in the context of fitness landscapes. If you don't understand the relevance you probably shouldn't be commenting. Secondly, genetic drift does do things. In fact, just moments ago you were talking about the Lenski long-term experiment. The metabolism of citrate required a non-adaptive step that occurred thousands of generations before citrate was metabolised. I would say that with their ability to grow on the citrate medium, that strain of E. coli benefited from the sheer dumb luck you are so derisive of.paulmc
June 26, 2012
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paulmc:
Also, Richard Lenski's lab has evolved a strain of E. coli that metabolises citrate as its sole energy source.
All that occurred was now the citrate was allowed to pass through the cell's membrane. All the machinery to metabolize the citrate was already in place.
Bacteria that degrade nyon for their energy have evolved in the natural environment in the short time since humans invented nylon.
And that scenario fits in well with Dr Spetner's "built-in responses to environmental cues". Geez paul, ID is not anti-evolution. Buy a vowel.
Axe goes on to discuss fitness landscapes, but he does so without mentioning genetic drift. It's all local fitness peaks and positive selection causing dead ends.
That is because genetic drift has never been observed to do anything, so relying on it = relying on sheer dumb luck, which isn't science. And Paul, if you had some evidence that undirected and blind processes can do the job now would be a good time to present it. Otherwise you just look like a little whiner...Joe
June 26, 2012
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BTW, I have started reviewing Gauger, Axe and Luskin's book chapter by chapter here.paulmc
June 26, 2012
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mk@37 - "acording to the evolution, a complex system can evolve without intelegent. so a car can be evolve naturally according to evolution." Thanks for that. Perhaps this wisdom is best used in a different thread. I was kind of hoping for responses to my criticism of chapter 5 of Gauger's book.paulmc
June 25, 2012
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hey paulmc acording to the evolution, a complex system can evolve without intelegent. so a car can be evolve naturally according to evolution. so if we find 2 similar cars made of dna, what you will say about the cars? alsso,the human have a unique genes. if this genes need somthing like 1000 base, its a very positive case that there is no step by step from ape to human.mk
June 25, 2012
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paulmc:
I know of no evidence that horses are the result of an intelligent agent.
Unfortunately no one can demonstrate any organim is the result of accumulations of random mutations. IOW your position doesn't have any evidence, paulmc, and it shows.Joe
June 25, 2012
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mk @ 34 - I'm not sure I follow your reasoning there. You have quoted me referring to positive evidence for a severe human population bottleneck, only to refer instead to analogous evidence for an intelligent designer. I'm also not sure what a car 'made of DNA' would look like. Perhaps the closest biological analogue to what you mean would be an animal used for transport with macromolecules derived from the expression of DNA. A horse perhaps? I know of no evidence that horses are the result of an intelligent agent.paulmc
June 25, 2012
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paulmc say: "Especially when that single line of argument does nothing more than leave a little room for doubt about one previous conclusion, without offering a shred of positive evidence to support the Adam and Eve story" actually there is a positive evidence: if we find 2 similar cars that made of dna we know that the cars was made by intelegent agent. so why not in the case of 2 similar organisem?mk
June 25, 2012
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If God made man out of the best type of body in his creation then we would look like apes and have like DNA. Its always been just a line of reasoning that like form and DNA was evidence for like relationship from a earlier thing. It was never based on scientific evidence.Robert Byers
June 25, 2012
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This is all rather underwhelming. Gauger's claim in the book boils down to this: because there are only 3-5 surviving, ancient haplotypes of HLA-DRB that are in linkage with neighbouring MHC loci and that also predate human and chimpanzee speciation, we could have descended from a two person, Adam & Eve scenario. This is an argument that sets about only to create sufficient doubt, rather than any positive evidence for such a bottleneck. Nor can it offer more than speculation about the patterns of diversity of HLA-DRB1 exon 2. Nonetheless, taken generously, there is some doubt that the MHC alone definitively rule outs an Adam and Eve scenario. But that's all. Gauger claims that the existence of ancient haplotypes in HLA-DR is the one of strongest arguments against Adam and Eve, tacitly acknowledging the existence of other arguments. However, her engagement with those other arguments ends there. If you are expecting a discussion, or even acknowledgement, of the other arguments against a 2-person bottleneck before Gauger's conclusion that Adam and Eve are possible, prepare for disappointment. Despite this, her conclusion is worded as being definitive, and should require multiple lines of evidence to be justified. She claims: "The argument from population genetics has been that there is too much genetic diversity to pass through a bottleneck of two individuals, as would be the case for Adam and Eve. But that turns out not to be true.". As one example, Li and Durbin's (2011) whole genome analyses that demonstrate the differing effective population sizes of human lineages over time (which never get close to two)--surely greatly more informative than an analysis of the MHC-- is not mentioned. No two-person bottleneck could possibly be inferred from their work, but the problem is sidestepped, along with everything else. Now, obviously, not everything can be covered in a book and Gauger does state that she focuses on the one argument, but considering the brevity of this book and the strength of the conclusion, there must have been space for more diverse coverage here. Especially when that single line of argument does nothing more than leave a little room for doubt about one previous conclusion, without offering a shred of positive evidence to support the Adam and Eve story, and while leaving the other major problems unaddressed.paulmc
June 24, 2012
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Was the snake question also pertinent?Chance Ratcliff
June 24, 2012
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lastyearon had a pertinent question and I don't think the "News" response was appropriate. Let's just ban everyone who disagrees with us, can we do that? If Eve was made from the rib of Adam, why did Eve not share the exact same DNA as Adam? What is the evidence that humans came from two parents who shared the exact same DNA? Why does someone have to read the book in order to pose that question?Mung
June 24, 2012
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To paraphrase Nick Matzke, If you haven't read the book (or are one if it's authors), your discussion of it is worthless.Mung
June 24, 2012
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At least Nick might take News up on the offer that Discovery Institute Press could send him a free copy. Oh...he has said he has ordered the book already. Whether or not his presuppositions, ideology, background beliefs allow him to assess the book 'neutrally' is a question seemingly worth asking outside of the 'objectivistic' realm of natural sciences. Iow, what Nick 'knows' (or claims to know) in biology or genetics actually says little about how his worldview influences his answers on questions of 'human origins.'Gregory
June 24, 2012
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Does anyone else find it absolutely adorable that Nick hasn't read the book, that nothing substantial has really been posted here, but damnit, he doesn't want that to get in the way of him attacking it? Why, one would almost get the impression that it doesn't matter what the book actually says - he intends to trash it however he can. ;)nullasalus
June 24, 2012
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NickMatzke_UD, We look forward to what you have to say when you have read the book! We post excerpts to create interest in reading it.O'Leary
June 24, 2012
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hey ann,the apes have have 100 copies of erv called pterv1, and we not find it in the human genome: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050328174826.htm for fixation of one of them we will need somthing like milion years. so we need 100 milion years for this change. also,what if we will find a watch that made of dna and can be replicate?mk
June 24, 2012
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Nick- YOUR position cannot explain introns nor alternative gene splicing. Also how can one tell if there is selection at any given locus?Joe
June 24, 2012
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But so far I have found no model that can preserve multiple polymorphisms across multiple speciation events that date back more than 30 million years.
Ooh, not a good sign for your argument. This part is easy, if there is selection for diversity at a locus, coalescence will be extremely rare.
Especially when those trans-species polymorphisms are embedded in species-specific introns in a region of suppressed recombination.
Well, we'd have to see the evidence for "suppressed recombination", and you'd have to show recombination is *extremely* repressed, to the point that it almost never happens.
species-specific introns
Depends which introns, how long they are (some are huge) what their LD is with the exons of interest, and whether or not you've correctly understood what other authors mean by "species-specific". I've got the book on order, but until it shows up all I can do is remark on what UD posts. If they leave out crucial issues an argument would have to address in order to be credible, well then, at the very least the UD posters don't understand your argument.NickMatzke_UD
June 24, 2012
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Talk to me when you have read the chapter, Nick. I sincerely want to know if there is a way to demonstrate a purely natural explanation for the pattern of HLA polymorphisms. But so far I have found no model that can preserve multiple polymorphisms across multiple speciation events that date back more than 30 million years. Especially when those trans-species polymorphisms are embedded in species-specific introns in a region of suppressed recombination.
Well, there's not much point in UD leaving out crucial parts of the discussion, then, is there?NickMatzke_UD
June 24, 2012
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Hey if we look at what the ToE sez then we can trace our lineage back to one parent- the first to get the chromosomal fusion and then perhaps some inbreeding occurred to get that fusion to spread and then become fixed. Heck that must have been some bottle-neck for that to occur.Joe
June 24, 2012
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Hi Ann, Thanks for your reply. I had thought we met at the Discovery Institute’s summer program in 2008 in Seattle. There was a woman with her leg up during the lectures and seminars who I spoke with. Am I confusing you with someone else associated with Discovery Institute who works at Biologic Institute with Douglas Axe (who I also met there)? I appreciate your acknowledgment of the “real possibility of two original parents” and that “not all of the facts are available.” Like you, I accept an ‘old earth’ (as if that's any more really in doubt!) and “don’t know when or where to place those first two parents.” But I have a guess, as you probably do also. We are also agreed that “choosing when we [i.e. persons, people, humans] first appeared on the planet all depends on what criteria you choose to define ‘human’.” As for me, I don’t trust zoologists or ethologists as much as I look to inspired anthropologists on the topic. You, Axe and Luskin are not anthropologists. DI-affiliated D. Klinghoffer has brushed off the ‘social-science field of anthropology.' Is there (or are there) a DI-affiliated anthropologist that you and your co-authors consulted in conducting research for your work? 2 points of note, with questions: First, Wesley J. Smith (affiliated with DI) speaks of ‘human exceptionalism.’ Do you promote this term with Douglas and Casey in your book? Second, do you in the book make the claim that ‘human origins’ are/were ‘intelligently designed’ or that ‘intelligent design’ was required to produce human beings as we know ourselves today? Thanks for your answers to these questions, GregoryGregory
June 24, 2012
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Most interesting. We are hoping to hear from people who have actually read what Gauger has said in toto.News
June 24, 2012
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