Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

We Assume We Are Not in the Matrix Too

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

markf asks what observation would falsify ID.  Gpuccio responded that an example of an incredibly improbable digital string that was developed in a stochastic system would tend to falsify ID and gave as an example 500 coins tosses that when interpreted as a code spelled out a meaningful message.  

Not good enough says markf.  “Nothing can falsify ID if you make no assumptions about the designer – because a designer of unspecified powers and motives can produce anything.”  In other words, gpuccio’s example assumes that the designer does not capriciously intervene in the outcome of coin tosses.

Yes, we assume that.  And we also assume that we are not plugged into the Matrix with all of our sense impressions being fed to us by a super-computer.  Give me a break.

Quite by coincidence I was reading Burke tonight and came across this passage that reminded me of markf’s objection:

I do not, my dear Sir, conceive you to be of that sophistical*, captious** spirit, or of that uncandid dullness, as to require, for every general observation or sentiment, an explicit detail of the correctives and exceptions which reason will presume to be included in all the general propositions which come from reasonable men.

*Given to sophistry, i.e., a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.

**apt or designed to ensnare or perplex.

Comments
gpuccio wrote: "CSI is observed first of all in human design." Like I said, this is news to me and in fact it makes me happy to hear this. But I question if the term 'CSI' was first coined when Dembski was thinking about 'human design.' Could you please provide some evidence or a link to show how you reached this conclusion? "I don’t know what you mean with this discussion about social sciences." - gpuccio Well, 'human design' involves human beings. People don't study human beings in the natural sciences, unless perhaps they are ethologists, and that's a stretch. A theory of 'human design' - what field(s) would this properly belong in? That's why I asked about a theory of ID in social sciences. Please correct me if I am wrong in suggesting that such a thing doesn't exist. You might say that it shouldn't exist or needn't exist, but that's another topic. "Please, read more carefully what I have written." - gpuccio I tried to understand it, but it still seems unclear. For example, you wrote: "Affirming that we cannot exclude design in absolute in no way means that there are not designed things." The "in absolute in" part I don't understand and it doesn't seem like a normal English sentence. (Please forgive me if English is not your first language because I am just trying to understand, not to insult your language.) I'm aware of the difference between epistemology and ontology. "I do believe that we can say “empirically” that non designed things do exist." - gpuccio Good! This is an answer to the very short and sweet question (with 'empirically' added in) that I was asking. All else is add-ons. So, then, could you please give me some examples of 'non-designed' things that, as you say, "do exist." What are examples of some 'non-designed' things? "ID is not a theory of everything." - gpuccio Again, good! I'm glad to hear this. Because if, as bornagain77 suggested, "everything is designed," then ID would be a theory of everything, wouldn't it? Thanks for addressing my simple question if there is/are or is/are not 'things that are/were not designed.' Just to repeat, I'm not asking about whether or not ID is falsifiable by asking about 'non-designed' things.Gregory
October 20, 2010
October
10
Oct
20
20
2010
07:46 PM
7
07
46
PM
PDT
So there I was last night waiting for a certain leviathan government agency to put its stamp of approval on our latest world-saving wonder product when I happened to wander over to UD—and what did I see? Of all things, a whole thread devoted to responding to Markf! First of all, call me crazy, but I kind of doubt that Markf is “sincere.” In fact I don’t think he has a sincere bone in his postmodern body. Otherwise he wouldn’t be slumming over here at UD and driving all of you good people crazy. But I gotta say—I love his schtick. All he has to do is toss off a few lines of some outrageous proposition with that deadpan rope-a-dope faux earnestness of his, and the next thing you know he’s got 40 long posts hanging off him, each more intricately argued, sincere & heartfelt than the last. He spends about 2 minutes tweaking you, and you spend billions and billions of hours being tweaked. Honestly, I don’t know how you have the patience. It’s like sticking your head over and over again into a clogged toilet.allanius
October 20, 2010
October
10
Oct
20
20
2010
06:59 AM
6
06
59
AM
PDT
@nullasalus -"we shouldn’t be surprised. But I also think it’s a point that should be pounded home again and again. Admittedly, I seem to be the only guy on these sites who feels this strongly about it, but hey, I’ll do whatever I can on that front." If you want to pound away on the abuses of the word random/chance by materialists you might also want to stress that it is merely another word for ignorance. I think voltaire said something along those lines if I remember correctly.above
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
06:27 AM
6
06
27
AM
PDT
nullasalus: I essentially agree with you. But I mean that, if we remain in an empirical context, there are concepts which make a difference in that context, and others which don't. In a limited context, a coin tossing system which I can know is detail, and abouit which I can be reasonable sure that no human trcky intervention is at play, is an empirically random system. It behaves as I aspect according to my random model. That's all. Larger views don't help me. Poker is different. It is not a completely random system, because the will of the players intervenes. And, even in its random part (the shuffling), we must be sure that no reasonable trick is being performed. But I see no utility, in my scinetific reasoning, in the possibility that God intervens in the coin tossing even when the results are well described as random. That's all I mean. On the general philosophical concepts, however, I do agree with you. Finally, I do agree with both Dembski and Behe. But I simply stick to the concept of "conscious intelligent being". I have never made any reference to any special form of "conscious intelligent being". I simply cannot renounce those fundamental concepts, because for me they have an empirical origin, from the observation of what the design process is in us humans. And thank you for the reciprocal respect :)gpuccio
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
05:19 AM
5
05
19
AM
PDT
@gpuccion Well if RNA exhibits dFSCI then the darwinist just pushes the question one level up. He needs to account for the dFSCI in the RNA now instead of DNA. Am I getting this right?above
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
05:15 AM
5
05
15
AM
PDT
above: The statement was of UB, so I leave to him to clarify it. Regarding RNA, there are various kinds of RNA. It is a much more dynamic molecule than DNA. DNA is essentially a mass memory. RNA performs many other tasks. In the "RNA world", RNA is supposed to perform both the role of mass memory and of effector. That's why the RNA world has been invented, without any evidence that it ever existed. mRNA is a copy (although a dynamic and remodeled one) of the information in DNA. In that sense, it essentially contains the same dFSCI which is in DNA. But there are also important differences. If you are interested, we can discuss them. Ribobomal RNA is an effector, which works with many proteins to translate mRNA ans synthesize proteins. So do the tRNAs, and their related enzymes. Nuclear RNA has many regulatory functions, most of them still poorly understood. I would say that, definitly, RNA exhibits dFSCI, and not only in the form of mRNA, where it is only a copy.gpuccio
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
05:08 AM
5
05
08
AM
PDT
Gregory: Some precisations: Hmmm…interesting! I hadn’t heard this before. Do you know who started this idea of ‘human design’ wrt CSI because from what I’ve read (though it’s been a few years since ID was really on my radar), CSI is primarily a mark of an ‘unembodied designer’ and does not involve ‘human design.’ You have heard wrongly. CSI is observed first of all in human design. That's how we hypothesize that it is a mark of design. Then we observe it in biological information, and we make the design inference there. This is the logical order of the reasoning. And the concept of unembodied designer has no relation with design detection itself. Iow, there is currently no ‘positive’ theory of intelligent design in the social sciences, unless I am wrong (and if so, please correct me and direct me to texts; though note: applied sciences like programming and engineering are obviously not social sciences and do not count). I don't know what you mean with this discussion about social sciences. I don't see that it is pertinent in any way. I’m curious if you know of anyone who calls this ‘activity’ by the same name, i.e. ‘design detection,’ in archaeology or forensics, or if there is another name for it in technical usage in those fields? Why are you so concerned about how it is called? It's the same kind of activity. We call it design detection. I wonder what you mean by this. Do you mean, in addition to human beings, (other) animals are ‘conscious’ and ‘intelligent’? I do believe that other animals are conscious. Anyway, we have direct experience of consciousness in ourselves, and we strongly infer it in other humans. For higher animals, IMO the inference is still valid, even if weaker. Intelligence is another matter. It can be defined in different ways. With many definitions, higher animals certainly show grades of intelligence. I believe that probably even higher animals do not usually output CSI. I could be wrong. Anyway, compared with humans, who output it all the time in abundance, the difference is certainly striking. That's all I can empirically say. Let me add that ‘intuition’ also would seem to play as large or perhaps even a larger role than ‘reasons’ in this hypothesis of non-human consciousness and intelligence, wouldn’t you agree? Yes. The intelligence behind ‘Welcome to Victoria’ in flowers was almost certainly, imo, not the *same* intelligence that created/evolved the flowers themselves as a phenomenon of ‘natural history’. Yes, but it's an intelligence just the same. You wrote: “We can never say: X is a non designed thing.” So, then you agree with bornagain77: Everything* is designed? There are *no* examples of things that are not designed? No. Please, read more carefully what I have written. Affirming that we cannot exclude design in absolute in no way means that there are not designed things. The first statement is about an epistemological limit, the second about reality. Moreover, I do believe that we can say "empirically" that non designed things do exist. Renouncing to the realm of absolutes, we can say many useful things. But I was under the impression that ‘intelligent design theory’ is *not* a ‘theory of everything’? Perhaps I’m wrong about this too. ID is not a theory of everything.gpuccio
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
04:58 AM
4
04
58
AM
PDT
My previous post should have been addressed to UprightBiped and gpuccio primarily... Somehow nullasalus sneaked in there :)above
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
04:24 AM
4
04
24
AM
PDT
gpuccio, Yes, I am. By truly random (out of the QM discussion) I mean only “can be modeled as random”. Then we're on the same page. The problem is that many people - including many scientists - try to parley these models into something more. They try to pass off metaphysics as science. And sometimes it seems like no one is taking them to task. (Or at least, they're reluctant to on the subject of biology. At least some people were able to flat out say Hawking was dead wrong and going far beyond science with his recent book.) I could only add that, at working level in formaing scientific hypotheses, we can usually agree that therer is at present no special scientific reason to believe that a system which can be modeled as random may be guided by some conscious entity. While everyone is free to believe that way from a philosophical point of view, I am not aware of any empirical utility of such an idea. There's two problems I have with that response. First, it seems flatly incorrect that there is no "reason to believe that a system which can be modeled as random may be guided by some conscious entity". Putting "scientific" aside for a moment, that's like saying there are no reasons to think someone may be cheating at poker. A poker game can be modeled in a probablistic fashion - but that doesn't make an actual poker game, much less poker hand, probablistic. Sometimes those 4 aces showed up under a different model. Second, my position is that the status, or lack, of guidance in nature is beyond science anyway. Sure, there is 'no special scientific reason to believe that a system which can be modeled as random may be guided by some conscious entity'. There's also no 'special scientific reason' to rule it out, or to have any view on the question whatsoever. The model is what the model is, it performs how it performs, and thus ends the utility of science. The empirical utility of either metaphysical view is either equal, or favors the design side - because at the very least, we know design and guidance exists. We can verify that even from a first-person perspective. 'No design at all' is forever an assumption. Darwinists say so many wrong and inaccurate things at the elementary science level, why should we be surprised that they are even worse when they debate epistemology or phiolosophy? We shouldn't be surprised. But I also think it's a point that should be pounded home again and again. Admittedly, I seem to be the only guy on these sites who feels this strongly about it, but hey, I'll do whatever I can on that front. If somebody else wants to call that “telic processes”, I have no problem, but I would ask: are those “telic processes” something that exists and is conscious and is intelligent? If the answer is yes, I am fine, but will go on using my terminology. If the answer is no, then for me that is not ID. Even if it is under the big tent. I was going by Dembski's view here. From a sticky'd entry by him on this very site: ID’s metaphysical openness about the nature of nature entails a parallel openness about the nature of the designer. Is the designer an intelligent alien, a computional simulator (a la THE MATRIX), a Platonic demiurge, a Stoic seminal reason, an impersonal telic process, …, or the infinite personal transcendent creator God of Christianity? The empirical data of nature simply can’t decide. Mind you, I'm Catholic - I know what I think the ultimate designer is. But, there's Dembski. And I admit, I admire him for taking a position like that. The same with Behe (if I recall correctly) arguing that if something horrible, like malaria, seems designed by ID estimation - then that's that. It doesn't somehow become 'not designed' because it's harmful. That sort of talk makes ID exceptionally dangerous to a lot of critics, who almost instinctively reach for evil/bad design arguments to counter ID. In that field, nobody is a special authority to me. But you are a person I definitely respect, which is much better. Consider me honored, and I respect you as well. In fact, a lot of the ID proponents around here, I respect.nullasalus
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
04:18 AM
4
04
18
AM
PDT
@nullasalus, gpuccio and others -“6) They displace the argument with a fondness for the RNA world hypothesis, forgetting the fact that such a hypothesis just pushes the information problem out of the way (instead of answering it), and they haphazardly ignore that the hypothesis has the largest set of intractable biochemical hurdles known to science” Does RNA not contain dFSCI? If it does that would push the problem of information one level up. Is that what you mean when you say “pushes the information problem out of the way”? Or do you mean they simply ignore it altogether?above
October 19, 2010
October
10
Oct
19
19
2010
03:16 AM
3
03
16
AM
PDT
gpuccio, Thanks for your post, carefully explaining your view. It was the first time I’d heard of the term dfSCI, so thanks for adding to my education. You wrote: “the presence of CSI is a mark of human design” Hmmm...interesting! I hadn’t heard this before. Do you know who started this idea of ‘human design’ wrt CSI because from what I’ve read (though it’s been a few years since ID was really on my radar), CSI is primarily a mark of an ‘unembodied designer’ and does not involve ‘human design.’ As you later note (if I understood you), looking (or detecting) for ‘human design’ is fundamentally not the same as detecting for design in ‘biology’ (or origins of life), which is what I thought ID was mainly about. Iow, there is currently no ‘positive’ theory of intelligent design in the social sciences, unless I am wrong (and if so, please correct me and direct me to texts; though note: applied sciences like programming and engineering are obviously not social sciences and do not count). I am stumped as to what contribution a theory of intelligent design in the social sciences could contribute that is not already covered in the social sciences because, as you well note, that humans design things is already ‘known.’ “[D]esign detection,” you say, is “something that has always been done, in archeology as much as in forensics.” I’m curious if you know of anyone who calls this ‘activity’ by the same name, i.e. ‘design detection,’ in archaeology or forensics, or if there is another name for it in technical usage in those fields? Re: “sound philosophical reasons to believe that consciousness and intelligence are more general principles,” I wonder what you mean by this. Do you mean, in addition to human beings, (other) animals are ‘conscious’ and ‘intelligent’? I guess that’s not too controversial. Or were you referring to extra-terrestrials or angels/demons, or something else? Let me add that ‘intuition’ also would seem to play as large or perhaps even a larger role than ‘reasons’ in this hypothesis of non-human consciousness and intelligence, wouldn’t you agree? “an inference of design by analogy to human design remains the best explanation for biological information.” – gpuccio Hmmm, I’m not sure if that analogy is very strong or rather weak ‘within natural science’. But I guess each person is free to weigh the analogy for what it is. – The intelligence behind ‘Welcome to Victoria’ in flowers was almost certainly, imo, not the *same* intelligence that created/evolved the flowers themselves as a phenomenon of 'natural history'. But maybe that’s just me and reverse engineering the imago Dei as a kind of ‘divine technology’ isn’t my cup of tea! I guess I’m to read your answer to my question then in the negative: There are *no* non-designed things. You wrote: “We can never say: X is a non designed thing.” So, then you agree with bornagain77: *Everything* is designed? There are *no* examples of things that are not designed? But I was under the impression that ‘intelligent design theory’ is *not* a ‘theory of everything’? Perhaps I’m wrong about this too.Gregory
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
11:19 PM
11
11
19
PM
PDT
Mark: for the same logging difficulties, I answer here your post #49 on the other thread. I wrote: "It is easy for anyone or for any non intelligent system to generate a digital string of any complexity. It is impossible for any non design system to generate a functional complex digital string" You comment: "First you should change the second sentence to: (A)”It is impossible for any non living system to generate a functional complex digital string” unless you are assuming life is designed." I stick to my version. While I appreciate that you are almost becoming a neo-vitalist, in my two sentences above I was intentionally leaving living beings apart. The reason is simple: the origin of the information in lvivng beings has been for years the object of our debates here. So, we cannot assume a priori neither that life is designed, not that it is not designed. Any conclusion about that argument must be the conclusion of our theories, and not the premise. So, my two phrases above were about the nature of dFCSI as we can observe it in the universe, outside of the single category we have doubts on (living beings). Moreover, as I have already said, living beings per se do certainly contain dFSCI, but we have no evidence that they can generate dFSCI. We have direct experience of dFSCI being generated "on the fly" only with humans. dFSCI in living beings is the object of our debate. Darwinists believe that it was generated out of any design intervention, we believe the opposite. Anyway, we have to motivate our conclusions with reasonable inferences. But again, living beings do not generate dFSCI in our experience. Conscious intelligent beings do. Design is the empirical originator of dFSCI, not life. But you are welcome anyway if you want to found with me a neo-vitalist movement! Regarding the ozone layer, I have already said, I believe, that while I have no difficulties in defining a function for it (there is no need to "stretch" anything), I have really no idea of how to compute its functional complexity.gpuccio
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
CY, thanks. I am very familiar with that passage and I think it does fit. Nice.tgpeeler
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
nullasalus: I go on (I posted involuntarily the first part). 2) You say: "If “truly random” means “really is random, there is no guidance or plan behind the actual real-world results”, you’re off into metaphysics land. Which is fine, metaphysics is great. But it’s not a scientifically demonstrable claim. No, I have no intention to state or even less demonstrate such a thing. 3) You say: Models are exactly that – models. Useful devices for predicting observed phenomena, with limits. But there’s reality beyond the model, and that’s the reality where the meat of the design question is in play. As far as I say, anyway. I agree. But ID is a model, anyway. The final decision about reality are, IMO, largely a personal choice. But good models are a good way to share experience, and to communicate. The ID model is a good model, and it is a good way to have a strong intuition of the reality of design. It has the limits which all models have, which are IMO the limits of science itself. 4) Again, you say: Because ‘truly random’ is utterly and eternally beyond the reach of science. I have no problem with “random”, qualified to mean – and explicitly made clear to mean – ‘most conveniently modeled as probablistic’, or so on. Those are statements about our knowledge, our pragmatic situation, etc. Truly random, actually random, is something else. Science doesn’t get there, and frankly can’t in principle. I absolutely agree. I think we are clear on that. I don't mean "truly" in that sense. 5) You say: Some darwinists do qualify their statements in that way. Others go further and cross the threshold I’m speaking of (and cite Darwin’s supposed belief about this as warrant for doing so, as if that matters), and a lot of people accept that as what ‘science’ says. It’s, frankly, baloney. Unless science means ‘whatever I metaphysically claim is possible and compatible with the data’. In which case, I say that science tells us that the whole of the universe was created last thursday. Darwinists say so many wrong and inaccurate things at the elementary science level, why should we be surprised that they are even worse when they debate epistemology or phiolosophy? 6) You say: I’ve seen way too many materialists/atheists show up on this very site and assert that things can burst into existence utterly uncaused from complete nothingness, and that *this has been observed by scientists*, to be that optimistic. I am not too optimistic, but things cannot go on that way forever (well, maybe that's being optimistic :) ) 7) You say: I was simply responding to T about why time doesn’t matter from a guidance/design standpoint. Really, it hardly matters much from a ‘chance’ standpoint either. If something happens that is ridiculously unlikely given the model, you cite luck, question the model, etc. Well, that's what darwinists do. We in ID make computations pof probabilities and probabilistic resources, and believe in being quantitative about those things. And time is one of the quantities. 8) You say: I thought ID was much broader than that – front-loading, impersonal telic processes, etc. Intervention being possible, but not strictly required. I’ve seen Dembski himself flat out claim that theistic evolutionists and front-loaders believe in ID by his view. I’ve seen front loading thinkers (Mike Gene, Denton if I read him right) cited favorably. I’ve seen prominent ID proponents praise other quasi-front loaders, like Simon Conway Morris. ID is certainly a big tent, but under that tent each one of us had a definite position. Mine has always been clear. Design is always the product of a conscious intelligent being, by definition. That's what ID is about: the work of conscious intelligent beings. If somebody else wants to call that "telic processes", I have no problem, but I would ask: are those "telic processes" something that exists and is conscious and is intelligent? If the answer is yes, I am fine, but will go on using my terminology. If the answer is no, then for me that is not ID. Even if it is under the big tent. TEs, for me, are not under that tent. At least what I understand as TEs. Some TEs are probably different, and they can be fine. Front loading is another story. Unless it is a variant of TE (the universe is front loaded to generate life), it should be something like: at some point in natural history the designer does intervene, but he does that only once, packs everything in some strange multipotential cell, and then remains to observe what happens. Well, that would be ID anyway. Dembski is right on that. So, that kind of front loading is under the tent. Unfortunately, I don't believe in front loading :) . 9) You say: If you see science as defined in a different way than I do, that’s really that. Well, probably not too different, as far as I can see. 10) You say: I think methodological naturalism is bunk Absolutely, absolutely true! :) 11) You say: I think that the criticisms of ID are usually lodged by hypocrites Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely true! :) :) But there are exceptions: good and intelligent people, who just happen to think differently. 12) You say: But I’m not going to pretend my definition of science is anything but my own, arrived at after looking at this issues. I’m no special authority. In that field, nobody is a special authority to me. But you are a person I definitely respect, which is much better.gpuccio
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT
nullasalus: It seems that today again, for some strange reason, I cannot log on the "three syllogisms" thread. So, I wil answer you here. I hope you can see his post. First of all, thank you for your further clarifications. Only a few comments: 1) You say: "If “truly random” simply means “can be modeled as random”, though, then you’re on the same page as me anyway." Yes, I am. By truly random (out of the QM discussion) I mean only "can be modeled as random”. I could only add that, at working level in formaing scientific hypotheses, we can usually agree that therer is at present no special scientific reason to believe that a system which can be modeled as random may be guided by some conscious entity. While everyone is free to believe that way from a philosophical point of view, I am not aware of any empirical utility of such an idea. So, for practical reasons, I may sometimes use "random" as a synonim of "unguided". But the only empirical meaning I give to the word is anyway of something that "can be best modeled as random". 2) Ygpuccio
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
05:19 AM
5
05
19
AM
PDT
tribune7: Thank you!gpuccio
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
05:07 AM
5
05
07
AM
PDT
gpuccio, post 37 is a keeper. Great job!tribune7
October 18, 2010
October
10
Oct
18
18
2010
04:39 AM
4
04
39
AM
PDT
---markf: "Right now I just want to point out that both you and Barry now accept that you have to make assumptions about the designer in order to falsify ID." ---"You may find these assumptions obvious – but it seems to me an important principle has been establised. Ever since I can remember every ID person I have debated has asserted that the design inference is independent of any knowledge or assumptions about the designer." Would it help if I reminded you that the subject matter in your second paragraph is different from the subject matter in your first paragraph? Would it help if I reminded you that speculating about how the designer could pull off a design is a different exercise than drawing scientific inferences about the probability of the designer's existence?StephenB
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
11:18 PM
11
11
18
PM
PDT
gpuccio, Sorry, I had to modify here - you're right, the example I gave was confirmation bias - but I was referring to a tendency to consider certain arguments as not good enough when pertaining to ID as a case of SH. The fact that this is done with regard to ID, but not with regard to the other side, is CB. :)CannuckianYankee
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
11:14 PM
11
11
14
PM
PDT
"But I agree that in some of Mark’s reasonings it can be easily observed, although I am sure that he is completely sincere in that. As I am sure that he must think the same of my reasonings." Yes, I would agree in the sincerity held. I think I'm right with regard to selective hyperskepticism - confirmation bias is the motivation, and SH is the means. We are all prone to operate in this fashion.CannuckianYankee
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
11:09 PM
11
11
09
PM
PDT
CannuckianYankee: I think KF would refer to this as an example of “selective hyper-skepticism.” Well, it's usually known also as "confirmation bias", and it's the main form of cognitive bias. In a sense, as conscious beings with strong personal motivations, we can never be completely free of it. But I agree that in some of Mark's reasonings it can be easily observed, although I am sure that he is completely sincere in that. As I am sure that he must think the same of my reasonings :)gpuccio
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
10:45 PM
10
10
45
PM
PDT
Gregory: What are examples of things that are *not* designed? Iow, can we say ‘X’ is a non-designed object or thing? Well, as I see it, it's rather simple. First we have to define "design" and "designed thing". I suggest: 1) "design" is a procedure where a conscious intelligent being contributes intentionally to the generation of a specific output imprinting on the output some form from his conscious representations. Therefore, the procedure of design implies: a) a conscious intelligent designer b) conscious intelligent representations c) a purpose d) an output modifies by those three things 2) "Designed thing" is any output as in the previous point "1d" Design can be: a) Known b) Inferred Design is known when we know that a designer and a design procedure were involved in the generation of an output. We can know that directly (we are the designer, and we observe our conscious representations associated to the procedure of design); or indirectly (we observe other human designers in the process, or have anyway credible evidence that they were involved). In all these cases, we observe, or have evidence, of the designer and of the process of design. Most cases of human design are in that category. At present, only human design is part of that category. There are, anyway, many cases where human design is inferred, not because we have any direct or indirect evidence of a designer or of the process of design, but merely from the characteristics of the designed object. That is called "design detection". It's something that has always been done, in archeology as much as in forensics. ID has formalized that principle by asking explicitly: what is it that allows us to "detect design" in an output, even if we have no evidence of a designer? The concept of CSI, in all its form, is the answer. The concept of dFSCI, a subset of CSI, is an answer which is particularly manageable and useful in the field of digital strings. So, giving for granted that you know the ID theory, ID states that the presence of CSI is a mark of human design, in the sense that it allows us to detect design with no false positives, but with many false negatives. Now we have three categories of human designed outputs: a) Human outputs for which we "know" they are designed. b) Human outputs for which we "detect" design. c) Outputs which could be human designed output, but which do not fall in a) or b). For them we can suspect design, but not affirm it. And then there are things for which we have no reason to suspect that they are human outputs. For them we have no reason "a priori" to suspect that they are designed, because the only design we "know" is human design. So, we could expect them not to exhibit CSI or dFSCI. And that is true in all cases, with one important exception: biological beings, where the presence of dFSCI in great abundance is observable in genomes and proteomes. Other possible exceptions could be the universe as a whole (as a system), and some subsystems of it (for instance, life allowing planets). IMO, as I have recently discussed extensively with Mark, the argument about these cases is valid, but still quantitatively difficult, and I usually don't discuss them here. But I do discuss biological information. There is nothing vague there. And we do have the tools to treat it quantitatively. So, going back to our discourse, we are in the following situation: 1) We have a clear map of human designed things. 2) We have a vast category of non human outputs which do not exhibit CSI. We have no reason to suspect, least of all affirm, design for them. Those are almost all the events we observe in nature. Please remember that many of those events are complex (the disposition of grains of sands in a beach is complex), but none of them is functionally complex. 3) Then we have the remarkable exceptions. Leaving alone the case of the universe as a system, and of specific big sub-systems of it (where it is difficult to decide if CSI is present), the only known exception are living things. If we stick to dFSCI, I would definitely say that biological information is absolutely the only known exception. Now, we only need two simple steps to reach our final conclusion: a) We have no reason, "a priori", to believe that consciousness and intelligence are limited to human beings in reality. It is true that we have empirical experience of them only in human beings, but it is equally true that there are sound philosophical reasons to believe that consciousness and intelligence are more general principles. b) That said, it is rather evident that, in absence of a dogmatic prejudice which restricts consciousness and intelligence to human beings "a priori", an inference of design by analogy to human design remains the best explanation for biological information. With this big premise, it is easy to answer your question: 1) We can never say: X is a non designed thing. That is not an interesting thing to say. Moreover, if we accept extreme philosophical concepts, everything could be designed by an omnipotent god. This kind of concepts, anyway, are useless, and have no scientific interest. 2) Remaining empirical, we can well distinguish between things for which we have no reason to suspect or affirm design, and things which are or could reasonably be designed. This is a very reasonable, and scientifically useful, approach.gpuccio
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
10:38 PM
10
10
38
PM
PDT
Barry, "Not good enough says markf." Well some things are good enough for markf, and some things apparently not. What are good enough are those elements which would seem to support his worldview, and what are not are those elements which do not. I think KF would refer to this as an example of "selective hyper-skepticism."CannuckianYankee
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
10:11 PM
10
10
11
PM
PDT
TG, A little OT I think I found your excluded middle: "Now if Christ is being preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised." (1 Cor) The excluded middle is either there is resurrection or there is not. There is no middle ground here. If Christ is raised, there is resurrection, there cannot be no resurrection.CannuckianYankee
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
09:52 PM
9
09
52
PM
PDT
Above, markf: "However, there is no convincing case that living things are designed – so they are an example of dFSCI that was not designed (to the extent that we know that anything was not designed" This is an example of assuming beforehand what one is attempting to prove - i.e., begging the question.CannuckianYankee
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
08:52 PM
8
08
52
PM
PDT
bornagain77 @ 24 Concerning the law of non-contradiction, I ran across this yesterday morning: 2Cor. 1:17 Therefore, I was not vacillating when I intended to do this, was I? Or that which I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yes, yes and no, no at the same time? 2Cor. 1:18 But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. 2Cor. 1:19 For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us — by me and Silvanus and Timothy — was not yes and no, but is yes in Him. Gee, Paul knew about the LNC. He also knew about causality, too. Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. As did the writer of Hebrews. Heb. 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. And of course, my favorites, Exodus 3:14 I AM WHO I AM (Being and Identity) and Jesus in John 8:58 "before Abraham was I am." and Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil... (a violation of the law of identity) I hope to find an explicit use of excluded middle soon. :-)tgpeeler
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
08:30 PM
8
08
30
PM
PDT
here's the link: Virtual Particles, Anthropic Principle & Relativity – Michael Strauss – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674/bornagain77
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
07:21 PM
7
07
21
PM
PDT
Gregory, IMO everything in the universe exhibits design in the overall sense, for example even 'virtual' particles are found to be necessary for life,,,, Virtual Particles, Anthropic Principle & Relativity - Michael Strauss - video even the amount of mass in the universe is found to be balanced to 1 in 10^60 (1 grain of sand) ,,,with facts like that, It would be interesting to find something that would not be considered to be designed anymore,,, but even if there were anything that would be found to be considered 'not designed' anymore my hunch would say that we just don't know the purpose for the 'anomaly' of non-design yet.bornagain77
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
07:20 PM
7
07
20
PM
PDT
BA Thanks for the link. What a hoot!! It is so ironic that we stupid IDiot theists are the ones defending rationality all the while the enlightened, super smart atheists embrace irrationality. You cant make this up. Furthermore the idiot atheist's appeal to Shrodingers Cat is unaware that Shrodinger used the cat as away of pointing out the problems of the Copenhagen Interpretation. From Wiki "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; quite the reverse, the paradox is a classic reductio ad absurdum" Shrodinger wanted to show the absurdity of the idea. This atheist is using Shrodinger, who considered the idea absurd as some type of proof that the LNC does not always apply. LOL Vividvividbleau
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
06:56 PM
6
06
56
PM
PDT
A bit of a different look on this. Not as interested in "Nothing can falsify ID..." as I am in another question: What are examples of things that are *not* designed? Iow, can we say 'X' is a non-designed object or thing? I've only posted a few times here so if this has been discussed elsewhere at UD, I'd appreciate someone directing me to it. Thanks, GregoryGregory
October 17, 2010
October
10
Oct
17
17
2010
06:19 PM
6
06
19
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply