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Swatting Down ID

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There an interesting piece in The American Scientist by Pat Shipman on how best to swat down ID. It’s interesting not because its arguments against ID or on behalf of evolution are strong, but because of the psychology it portrays: panic, damage control, and denial (the denial being that there might be anything fundamentally amiss with conventional evolutionary theory). As you read it, think of the cigarette companies 50 years ago attempting to swat down claims that cigarette smoking is dangerous to your health. Shipman is a company man to the core, representing vested interests that have everything to lose.

Being Stalked by Intelligent Design
Scientists must stop ignoring Intelligent Design—religious prejudice disguised as intellectual freedom
By Pat Shipman

American Scientist [for full article go here]

. . . ID is an insidious attempt by a religious caucus to impose its views on the whole country. The avowed aim of ID advocates—to undermine science and replace it with their personal religious convictions—amounts to a form of prejudice that is both poisonous and horribly frightening. Inevitably, young people will suffer most. As Francisco Ayala wrote in “From the President” (July-August 2004), science training will be a fundamental necessity in the technological world of the future.

As scientists, we must stop ignoring the ID movement. It won’t go away. Each of us must learn to avoid jargon in order to communicate better with the public. Every scientist should become a mentor; share your experience of the wonder and beauty of science! Finally, critically, we must expose Intelligent Design for what it really is: religious prejudice masked as intellectual freedom.

Do not miss the irony of this last sentence. To determine who here exhibits religious prejudice and who here champions intellectual freedom, ask yourself who here is limiting the debate and shutting down discussion of the relative merits of ID and evolutionary theory.

Comments
Yeah welcome back Benji wow i should really watch myself with my comments more often then. Sometimes i cant help myself to throw the dog[s] a bone either. But its so hard not to throwh in a few bashes once in a while. personal note - get myself in check check :) CharlieCharliecrs
October 8, 2005
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MWC The article by Richard N. Ostling quoting Ronald Numbers appears to be: "'Intelligent design' gains attention in Ohio debate By RICHARD N. OSTLING AP Religion Writer" A copy is currently posted at: http://www.onlineshawnee.com/stories/031602/rel_44.shtml (Note the later date posted at this site. "Story last updated at 3:48 p.m. Saturday, March 16, 2002"DLH
October 8, 2005
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I feel I should apologize for the posts I made yesterday. I had only read the last few posts concerning Wikipedia and presumed that was all of it. I guess from now on I should get myself up to speed before I start making dumb posts, huh? Sorry about that. Davidcrandaddy
October 8, 2005
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Thanks for the welcome guys. I really appreciate it. I was sent into exile because Bill felt that I was over-posting over insignificant things. I was also a bit disrespectful to one visiting darwinist on the thread.Benjii
October 8, 2005
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P.S. Welcome back Benjii! :-)DaveScot
October 8, 2005
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Check out this wiki edit history: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_A._Dembski&action=history I'm in there somewhere a few months ago. I gave trying to correct some of the bullshit spouted in the first paragraph. I tried getting this "for advocating the idea of intelligent design in opposition to the theory of evolution through natural selection" change to this for advocating the idea of intelligent design as a mechanism of evolution in addition to natural selection" All of us here familiar with ID know my change is accurate and true and the prior is misleading and false. I made the edit a whole bunch of times over a period of several days and a whole bunch of different wiki editors popped in within minutes of my change to change it back to the lie. NPOV my ass.DaveScot
October 8, 2005
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I overlooked the gender category. Thanks for pointing that out. I use Wikipedia quite often for general reference (It's the best source I've seen so far.), but I've never done any writing or editing before. I'll have to learn the rules and get into the ebb and flow of the site; they won't let just anybody put up anything they want on any topic. They also have a discussion page for what's presented in the articles. That's probably where I'll go first. I'm not one to get into heated debates, but I just have to call a foul on this one. Polemics and apologetics have no place in a public general reference encyclopedia! Davidcrandaddy
October 7, 2005
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"I just added a statement to the beginning of the “Intelligent Design” page informing readers that the information it contains is “biased and discriminatory” and that “changes will be made soon”." Wait... you didn't actually post that on the article page, did you? Of course it was going to be deleted. It had nothing at all to do with the article. You should have posted that statement to the article's discussion page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Intelligent_design_movement My guess is that so many eyes are on this article that your statement would be read and reacted to. People don't just up and delete stuff on the discussion page. It's there to be discussed. Post it there and you can see where it takes you.higgity
October 7, 2005
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I've never used wiki - but from the link you provided sounds like this persons a guy. its "m" on gender.... My understanding is if anyone can edit or delete the other persons link or thread ?. - maybe just maybe ya should return this guy the same friendly favor ?. Now if thats too harsh... ya can opt with the # 2 selection - write him a letter or whatever and remake the thread / link. CharlieCharliecrs
October 7, 2005
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statment=statementcrandaddy
October 7, 2005
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I've noticed that my very modest statment at the beginning of the Wikipedia "Intelligent Design" article, er, rebuttal, was promptly deleted. We're evidently dealing with a particularly nasty one who calls him/herself "FeloniousMonk". Go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FeloniousMonk. This particular unsavory individual appears to be hell-bent on misrepresenting ID and passing it off as objective fact. Just read the article, and look at his/her personal page. Tell me something doesn't smell like a garbage bin full of fish entrails left out in the hot sun for two weeks! I'll do what I can to rectify the situation; if the Wikipedia management is really as fair and balanced as they would like the public to believe they are, they will not allow the article to stand as it is. And now for a completely different line of thought... Benjii, why did Bill send you into exile in the first place? Davidcrandaddy
October 7, 2005
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Bill saw my interest for ID, I e-mailed him constantly. He told me that he didn't mean to ban me forever. So, he allowed me back in. However, I have been warned not to make the same mistakes.Benjii
October 7, 2005
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You guys are right about Wikipedia. I just added a statement to the beginning of the "Intelligent Design" page informing readers that the information it contains is "biased and discriminatory" and that "changes will be made soon". I plan to work on it when I have time. Davidcrandaddy
October 7, 2005
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Hey Alan Fox, yeah i had the same problem i think a coupledays ago with the "over posting" thing. i had writen a long comment post that didnt show up :( but i think i pressed the "sumbit" button twice or something and got the message. first i thhought it was cuz i probably used a strong language that it was being blocked......... but i gave up on it after a couple trys. anyays i saw you had the "test" post a couple times and was wondering if you had the same problem. glad to know it wasnt just me and iwasnt going kookooo lol :)Charliecrs
October 7, 2005
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Which reminds me, Benjii, how did you get out of the penalty box?Charlie
October 7, 2005
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to come.Benjii
October 7, 2005
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Wikipedia is more than likely to have an agenda of their own. The motive game can be played both ways. I think both sides(ID and Darwin) need to learn to share and compete for acceptance. I see Darwinism losing substantial influence in the 20-100 years.Benjii
October 7, 2005
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Over at wikipedia, the whole interpretation of ID is based on the view that they think there is a religious agenda that is really behind the scenes. They claim it was leaked on the net and ever since there has been a constant movement to dissemble this agenda in the public eye. Can you believe this?MWC
October 7, 2005
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Bill gets a bit uptight about over-posting.Benjii
October 7, 2005
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Sorry for broken up post but I tried several times to post as one paragraph and it isappeared. Is there a word limit on a single post?Alan Fox
October 7, 2005
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They persevered and got their ideas accepted in the end. A geniune new idea will win through if it has merit.Alan Fox
October 7, 2005
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to get their discovery of Helicobacter pylori as the primary cause of peptic ulcers and the cure by a short course of antibiotics accepted.Alan Fox
October 7, 2005
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They fought prejudice and obstruction (especially from international drug companies)Alan Fox
October 7, 2005
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Barry J. Marshall and Robin Warren have just won the Nobel prize for medicine.Alan Fox
October 7, 2005
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TestAlan Fox
October 7, 2005
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johnnyb Absolutely correct about the top level editors and their lack of NPOV. I don't really agree that an NPOV is an impossibility in real life. Maybe it's impossible to have an internal NPOV but one can certainly affect an external pretense of NPOV. A good example is what I did to the house majority leader article. I don't have an NPOV about DeLay. I could have replaced the negative with my belief that Ronnie Earle is the criminal and the fact that Tom DeLay has done more to advance the goals of conservative interests in the U.S. perhaps than any other single person in recent history and has thus become a liberals' enemy number 1. But I didn't because that isn't an NPOV. I know an NPOV when I see one and I believe most other intelligent people do too. The top level editors at wiki only give NPOV lip service.DaveScot
October 7, 2005
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dodgingcars: the problem is that wikipedia has a central set of editors that can override any change. The problem is that these people do not have a neutral point of view. In fact, a neutral point of view is simply an impossibility in real life, and pretending you have one is philosophically shallow.johnnyb
October 7, 2005
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Benjii That seems a bit sweeping.Alan Fox
October 7, 2005
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Wikipedia is full of many prejudices against ID. It's totally idiotic.Benjii
October 6, 2005
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DaveScot, The good and bad thing about Wiki is that it is user edited and no one is really restricted from editing, deleting, writing, etc. The goal is to have NPOV, but because we are all humans, bias seeps in... but that is where the good of Wiki comes in -- others who perceive the bias can (like you) edit the article. However, it seems that good etiquette on Wiki is to also post message in the discussion on that topic explaining what and why you edited. Controversial topics are going to be hard to keep as NPOV, especially because those topics are going to attract very passionate and emotional people. I think that Wiki is a great resource and a great idea, but I wouldn't rely on it completely. Its a good way to get a basic overview/summary of an issue and then use the sources that are cited to gain a better understanding.dodgingcars
October 6, 2005
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