Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Meat of the Matter

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I invite our readers to review my last post and the exchanges between me and eigenstate (hereafter “E”) in the combox.  I could go through a point-by-point rebuttal of eigenstate’s comments, but it would be pointless, because far from rebutting the central thrust of the post, he did not lay a finger on it.   Here is the central argument of that post:  The immaterial mind exists.  Everyone knows the immaterial mind exists.  Its existence is, indeed, the primordial datum that one simply cannot not know.  Therefore, any denial of the existence of the immaterial mind is not only false; it is incoherent.  Hence, the immaterial mind is not an “explanation” of any sort; it is a datum one must take into account in any robust (indeed, any coherent) ontology.  And if your metaphysics requires you to deny this undeniable fact, that is a problem with your metaphysics, not the fact.

In response E screams over and over and over (one can just imagine his wild eyes rolling back in his head as spittle spews from his lips) “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.  And so are you.”  One wonders why a meat robot is so passionate about evangelizing all of the other meat robots to ensure they know (can meat “know”?) the true nature of their meatiness.

But E, you might object, it is absurd to say that the physical components of brain meat (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) can exhibit the attributes of an immaterial mind such as subjective self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.  Isn’t it just as absurd to say that amalgamations of the physical components of brain meat can exhibit those attributes?  Stupid! E responds.  You have committed the fallacy of composition.  What is the fallacy of composition?  That is indeed a real logical fallacy.  It means that it is fallacious to infer that a whole can exhibit only the attributes of its individual parts.  Here’s an example of the fallacy:  An individual brick cannot provide shelter; therefore a house made of bricks cannot provide shelter.   How does this apply to brain meat?  According to E, brain meat as a whole has properties far different from its meaty components, and one of those properties is the capacity to delude itself into believing it has the attributes of an immaterial mind.

Now, to his credit, I am sure E will be the first to admit that not all kinds of meat have this capacity.  Indeed, brain meat is the only kind of meat that we know of that does.  And what is the difference between brain meat and other kinds of meat that accounts for this difference?  It is all a matter of how the meat is arranged.  “Structure matters,” E observes pedantically.  Wait just a minute.  Is E saying that if a rib eye steak were structured just a little differently it would be conscious?  Well, yes, that is kind of the gist of it.  But where is the dividing line between non-conscious rib eye steak kinds of meat and conscious brain meat, you might ask.  Well, here is where things get a little murky.  But according to E, if we arrange the same stuff that rib eye steaks are made of (oxygen atoms, hydrogen atoms, carbon atoms, etc.) into a particularly complex configuration, at some point . . . wait for it . . . poof! you get meat that (has the illusion of) self-awareness, qualia, intentionality, and the perception of subject-object duality.

That’s right.  It turns out that invoking the fallacy of composition is actually just a backhanded way of invoking Poof! It emerged.  And like all emergentist accounts of consciousness, the pesky details about how consciousness (or the illusion thereof) emerges from simpler kinds of meat are never explained.  It really is just that simple.  E’s reasoning goes something like this:  You commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that houses emerge from bricks arranged in a particular way; and in just the same way you commit the fallacy of composition if you deny that consciousness emerges from meaty components arranged in a certain way.

“But,” you might object, “meaty components – no matter how complex the arrangement – are still, well, you know, meat, which is a physical thing.  How can an immaterial mental phenomenon like consciousness emerge from meat?  Isn’t that a category error?”  Now here is where E’s evangelism takes on a fundamentalist zeal reminiscent of an Appalachian snake handler.  In response to such a question he would stand to his feet, stretch out his arm, point his boney finger at you, and scream “Infidel!”  You see, E is committed to materialism with an intense quasi-religious fervor, and he holds his faith commitments with a dogmatic, brassbound and rigid fideism that would make a medieval churchman blush.  After he caught his breath and got his heart rate under control, he would reply breathlessly, “There can be no category error, because there is only one category and that category is physical; thus sayeth the prophets of materialism.”

Here is where the story gets very sad.  You see, materialism is a stunted, narrow-minded and provincial way of looking at the world.  A more robust ontology allows one to take the world as he finds it and revel in the full panoply of its grandeur, beauty and mystery.  But materialism says if self-evident facts conflict with its precepts, to hell with the facts; the precepts come first.  The god of materialism is a harsh taskmaster, and he forces all of his servants to wear blinders lest they be tempted to behold the forbidden facts.  And E, having heeded his god and donned his blinders, literally cannot see the beauty, vastness and glory of his immaterial mind.  Instead, he stamps his foot, gets red in the face, and chants, “I’m a meat robot; I’m a meat robot.”  Madness; sheer madness.

 

Comments
I have a wholly irrational mind, naturally!Mung
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:55 PM
3
03
55
PM
PDT
Carpathian #64, Eigenstate My bad.Box
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Box:
Eigenstate: What does your position say about the interface between mind and brain? [ Translation: I have got nothing.]
I think you may be quoting me.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Box: Again, do see Reppert (post #3) who presents an irreconcilable difference between being subservient to the laws of nature and the laws of logic and meaning (the laws of reason).
Eigenstate: What does your position say about the interface between mind and brain? [ Translation: I have got nothing.]
Box
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PDT
C @ 61. No.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:22 PM
3
03
22
PM
PDT
Barry, In here?
[The] intuitions of folk psychology are in fact perfectly accurate; they are not merely some theory about the mind that is either corrigible or dispensable. They constitute nothing less than a full and coherent phenomenological description of the life of the mind, and they are absolutely “primordial data,” which cannot be abandoned in favor of some alternative description without producing logical nonsense. Simply said, consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is quite real (as all of us, apart from a few cognitive scientists and philosophers, already know— and they know it too, really). And this presents a problem for materialism, because consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is also almost certainly irreconcilable with a materialist view of reality.
Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Box:
Again, do see Reppert (post #3) who presents an irreconcilable difference between being subservient to the laws of nature and the laws of logic and meaning (the laws of reason).
Firstly, we are the architects of logic so we are not in any way subservient to them. What does your position say about the interface between mind and brain? How is it done? How is the mind joined to the body in the first place?Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
SB @ 57:
On the contrary, the lack of clarity and the absence of explanation is coming from your quarters. Logically, the act of knowing cannot be a physical process because a mere process cannot account for the two realms in question. Something more than a physical process is needed.
Thank you for jumping in here. But if you have the same experience that I've had, you are bound to be disappointed. You see, I am persuaded that E's faith commitments are so overwhelmingly strong that he literally cannot see that which materialist metaphysics denies. It is like he is in the grip of a Cartesian demon who will not allow him to see anything that contradicts the claims of materialism. Thus, he is literally incapable of understanding what a metaphysical demonstration such as the one you present is. Far less is such a demonstration likely to persuade him.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:12 PM
3
03
12
PM
PDT
C @ 54. "Point me there." I already did. I will give you another hint. My entire answer to your question is in a quotation of David Hart.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
Eigenstate:
But if you were to have to start substantiating your concepts in the way materialists should and do — never mind substantiating evidential claims for now — you’d find it very difficult going, indeed.
On the contrary, the lack of clarity and the absence of explanation is coming from your quarters. Logically, the act of knowing cannot be a physical process because a mere process cannot account for the two realms in question. Something more than a physical process is needed. To be more specific, you cannot account for [a] the concepts by which the knower knows physical reality, the map and [b] the physical reality that is known, the territory. While you throw words like “map” and “territory” around for rhetorical effect, you clearly do not understand what the words signify. I know that to be the case because I asked you to define each term three times and you could not do it. More radically, you disavow the very existence of a conceptual map by refusing to accept the ontological difference between the knowing self and the thing which is known. Because you deny the existence of a real map as a complement to the territory, you also deny the possibility of a relationship between the two. Yet we know that both realms exist because we experience them every day. Thus, materialism, which eliminates the possibility of their mutual existence, must be false. For you, everything is territory and nothing is map, except when you are doing damage control, at which time you reverse your field and claim, incredibly, that something like a map emerged from the territory—except that it isn’t really a map. As a result of all this patent nonsense, you live in an intellectual madhouse. Everything about your position crumbles under scrutiny.StephenB
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
Box: The “translation” is necessary for the sake of debate.
Carpathian: No, the translation is necessary because the immaterial mind side does not have a good argument.
Not at all, but feel free to point out which important part(s) I left out. I did my best to present what Eigenstate said as fair as possible. There is simply nothing there.Box
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT
NetGuy @ 52. Your comment made me think of this that a friend put on Facebook yesterday:
The limits of language translation technology. My Colombian step-mom Mari commented on my profile pic: "As handsome as your father." But she commented in Spanish. "Tan guapo como el papa!" Now, in Spanish, the father is "El Papa" and also the Pope is "El Papa" Actually, we have a similar ambiguity in English with "Father." But anyway, if you click Facebook's "Translate" offering on Mari's comment, you'll learn she thinks I'm as handsome as the Pope. Er...thanks, Mari.
Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
Barry, Point me there.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT
C @ 47:
Nowhere in that article do I see you describe the interface and range.
Poor man. You literally cannot see. It is astounding. My answer is there. Until you open your eyes at least to the extent that you can see what is staring you in the face, it makes no sense to engage with you.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
03:00 PM
3
03
00
PM
PDT
E: there is no evidence of science making progress on consciousness or cognition. There is hand waving, where easy parts of the problem are discussed, and all the crucial hard parts of the problem treated as black boxes, with a promissory note that science will come up with a mechanism to fill that box in the future. This is true without exception in these fields. A great example of lack of progress is in the field of strong AI, which I consider a subset of the complexity of understanding human cognition. There is no progress in this field, none whatsoever. Research is right where it was 65 years ago when the Turing test was invented. All cases where machines appear intelligent are due to cleverly regurgitating information provided by a human -- they are incapable of generating their own information. Another example is natural language translation. This is a further subset of the strong AI problem, and there is little progress on it. Try entering anything in Google Translate and tell me we are close to solving the problem. Again, brute force entering of massive human specified rule sets can fake progress, but there's no real progress on making machines understand the idea of context, which is necessary for language. My 1 year old son clearly understood context when he first began speaking -- how did he do this? Give me a mechanism or algorithm (then claim your Nobel prize), not "evolution programmed him to do it." You (and EL) keep mentioning the Composition Fallacy, and so I looked it up, and realized you actually don't know what it is, and I can't believe no one has corrected you! The Composition Fallacy involves inferring that if a part possesses a property, then the whole must also possess that property. Not that if a part doesn't have a property, the whole can't have a property. The key difference is that there are clearly a lot of properties that a whole CANNOT possess given a known set of parts. It's not a fallacy in any way to say you can't understand how a given set of parts could make a certain whole, and to ask for a mechanism to explain the operation of the whole. For example, if I gave you a box of car parts, without the wheels, you couldn't make a functional car. If you did claim to make a functional car from those parts, you would need to explain a mechanism (for example, I reconstructed the car such that the wheel hubs touch the ground, and it rolls on those). Without that explanation of mechanism, I have to assume that it won't work. Given that your entire argument is based on repeated strenuous appeals to an inapplicable fallacy, I can't wait to see what you will come up with next...NetResearchGuy
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:58 PM
2
02
58
PM
PDT
eigenstate
Let’s learn about the mechanics of creation of the immaterial mind!
You are asking wrong questions. For me the Mind is fundamental for matter to exist, science will figure out everything about the brain but it wont find a Mind inside the brain since even Science needs a fundamental Mind to observe the brain. It is like asking the explanation of the explanation, it doesn't follow. The Case for the Soul(Mind) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Case for the Soul(Mind): Refuting Physicalist Objections https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5TNrtu9PkJimFit
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT
Box:
The “translation” is necessary for the sake of debate.
No, the translation is necessary because the immaterial mind side does not have a good argument. Everything I read from the immaterial side is on par with the ID discussion in which the evo side is discredited but no actual model is presented by the ID side. This same thing is happening in this discussion but instead of "there's no way life could happen without a designer's help", there's "there's no way that people can be conscious without immaterial help". It is the same argument and has just as little meat.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
Eigenstate,
Box: If reason is first and foremost dictated by matter—blind, unintelligent, without overview and uninterested in matters of truth, logic and coherence—then what is reason?
Eigenstate [translated]: I do not understand your question and I simply state that the brain thinks.
Reppert makes the distinction between chemistry and reason very clear. Kindly respond to the Reppert quote in post #3.
Box: How can it possibly work? How can it be trusted?
Eigenstate [translated]: The brain thinks (kind of) like a computer thinks.
Does the brain have understanding—unlike the computer (see the Chinese Room by Searle)?
Box: IOW how does one get from chemistry to reason?
Eigenstate [translated]: Darwinian evolution and BTW you should not ask that question.
Unresponsive. I’m talking about the here and now. How does a chemical composition have overview, understanding, have a sense of logic and truth WHILE being exclusively obedient to the laws of nature? Again, do see Reppert (post #3) who presents an irreconcilable difference between being subservient to the laws of nature and the laws of logic and meaning (the laws of reason). - - The “translation” is necessary for the sake of debate.Box
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
You literally do seem to think that knowledge that is not gained through a scientific experiment is “non-knowledge.” As I said earlier, your metaphysics is a sad, stunted, parochial little thing.
Ok, well let's put it to the test, then! I'm all for demonstrating rather than just asserting. On your supernaturalist views, what is your method for distinguishing knowledge from non-knowledge? What test do you apply to discriminate knowledge from non-knowledge? If the scientific heuristics I'm pointing here entail a sad, stunted, parochial metaphysics, lets see how your... what was the word.... "more robust" (*cough*) metaphysics provide as the basis for your epistemology. This should be a slam dunk for you, Barry, if this isn't just more "all hat no cattle" bravado from you. What is the test for distinguishing knowledge from non-knowledge that you want to put up in contrast to the scientific model?eigenstate
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:41 PM
2
02
41
PM
PDT
Barry, Nowhere in that article do I see you describe the interface and range. The only thing that comes close is:
While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected.
It's not enough to simply say connected if one is claimed to be immaterial and another material. Just how do you connect something that is composed of matter with something that isn't? If I "connect" a cell phone to a network there is a range requirement.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:41 PM
2
02
41
PM
PDT
Do you mean to say that even the fact that it is self-evidently true does not qualify it for consideration in your book? As I said, your god bids you pound at the square pegs, and you pound away. I am so sorry.
The "immaterial mind" is not self-evidently true, Barry, or even evidently true, but never mind that for now. What would be self-contradictory in negating this statement: "I have/am an immaterial mind". There's nothing logically self-contradictory about a negation like: "I have/am a wholly natural mind". There is no self-contradiction in that statement. Just to show how self-evidence does work, the old standby: "I believe I am conscious". Negations like: "I do not believe I am conscious" or "I believe I am not conscious Are self-contradictory, internally inconsistent consistent. To believe anything one must necessarily be consciousness. Consciousness is transcendental to forming or articulating any beliefs. There is no self-contradiction or internal inconsistency in: "I have/am a wholly natural mind". If you think I'm wrong, send this along to Dr. Dembski. He's a professional philosopher, or some other trained philosopher you know and trust, and share with us your response. You either suppose your readers and critics are not even novices in logic and philosophy, or you lack entry level knowledge on the subject yourself. Maybe it's easier if you just suppose you can find some support on the web from other philosophers or logicians who endorse this goofy claim.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
C @ 43: I answered that in my last post. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-invoking-non-physical-mental-states-to-solve-the-problem-of-consciousness/ I bet you cannot find the answer in that post even after I've told you where it is. Prove me wrong.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:27 PM
2
02
27
PM
PDT
And I don’t have to just relate that anecdotally. I can just ask you to compete — show us your model, review the evidence, show us the predictions that are entailed by that model and how you identify those entailments. Then show us how your test your model, how it would be falsified, and by passing at least some substantial liability to falsification, be distinguished from “non-knowledge”.
Pound pound pound pound pound pound. Do you ever tire of pounding on those square pegs? You must sort of know how Sisyphus felt. E, it is one thing to pound on square pegs. Please don't act like there is no such thing as round pegs. You literally do seem to think that knowledge that is not gained through a scientific experiment is "non-knowledge." As I said earlier, your metaphysics is a sad, stunted, parochial little thing.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:23 PM
2
02
23
PM
PDT
eigenstate:
I’f I’m wrong, this can be a very interesting thread. Let’s learn about the mechanics of creation of the immaterial mind! Show us your model Barry, let’s see where the knowledge is tested and demonstrated and where the gaps in the knowledge are!
This would be a great topic. Include just how the interface between the mind and brain works. Is there an operating range requiring the mind to be a minimum distance from the brain?Carpathian
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:21 PM
2
02
21
PM
PDT
If you rule out all of the other games by fiat. You really do need to get over yourself. Here’s another clue: “My quasi-religious faith commitments prohibit me from considering other solutions” is not equivalent to “other solutions are false.” You should write that down 50 times, and maybe it will sink in.
I don't rule out competing claims. I was raised as a Christian, and spent a good many years of my adult life trying to acquire some model that worked with my "Christian worldview" that performed as knowledge, as an explanation for questions like our consciousness, freewill, instincts. Perhaps you are much more well-researched Christian than I was, because my only grounds for thinking my "self" was an immaterial aspect of my physical self was a) religious faith qua faith, and my own natural intuitions. That doesn't go very far, your trust in your intuitions as infallible oracle notwithstanding. And I don't have to just relate that anecdotally. I can just ask you to compete -- show us your model, review the evidence, show us the predictions that are entailed by that model and how you identify those entailments. Then show us how your test your model, how it would be falsified, and by passing at least some substantial liability to falsification, be distinguished from "non-knowledge". You won't because you can't. That's not how your worldview rolls. So it's not a matter of me ruling anything out. You've just embraced a paradigm that doesn't admit of knowledge, testing, examination or liability to falsification. It doesn't even aim to compete, and in that sense, rules itself out. I'f I'm wrong, this can be a very interesting thread. Let's learn about the mechanics of creation of the immaterial mind! Show us your model Barry, let's see where the knowledge is tested and demonstrated and where the gaps in the knowledge are!eigenstate
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT
The point of that was simply to head off the demand of complete and exhaustive knowledge from science as the minimum qualifications for being considered as candidate for subscription.
I have never asked for complete and exhaustive knowledge of any scientific claim. I have asked for something very different. I have asked you for the very first step (never mind step 587) in bridging the gulf between ontological categories. I realize you will never give me that first step, because your faith commitments do not allow you to believe more than one ontological category exists. You seem to think that asserting conclusions based on your faith (and not the evidence) will somehow make conclusions true if you assert them with enough fervor. Sorry. Does not work that way.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
@Barry
Now that’s a new one. Issuing yet another materialist promissory note with one hand, and telling me you probably won’t be able to pay it with the other. I don’t see why you think this helps your position. It does not.
It's not offered as way to help my position, nor is it needed for such. It's the fact of the matter. It's offered as a prophylactic against some expectation that science must be omniscient and exhaustively complete to be considered. It's not complete and cannot be. But for all its promissory notes, which it should have no qualms about acknowledging, it's so far ahead of, say, "Christian theism", and its supernaturalist brethren as an epistemology as a heuristic for gaining and coalescing knowledge that it's always a surprise when I hear a scientist get defensive because they can't provide a stepwise chemical pathway to RNA on demand in atomic detail. On Christian theism, there's nothing to promise, there's now way to cash out a promissory note, even if it wanted to do so. It's not able to fill in any gaps, because it cannot distinguish a gap from a non-gap, cannot differentiate non-knowledge from knowledge. So I point out the promissory or expectant nature (and freely allow that we may never get satisfactorily detailed or performative models on many questions) as a fact, but a fact that for all its frustrations, itself elevates the paradigm over the older, supernaturalist paradigms. I guess noting that does help my position vis-a-vis Christianity by comparison, but my comments on the limitations of our knowledge as given above do not establish the actuality of mind-as-natural-phenomenon, nor were they intended to. The point of that was simply to head off the demand of complete and exhaustive knowledge from science as the minimum qualifications for being considered as candidate for subscription.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
The “superstitious model” doesn’t bring any of the kinds of empirical or model-based content that qualifies it for consideration.
I assume your term "superstitious model" is your derisive term for "conclusion that the immaterial mind exists." Allow me to substitute the neutral for the derisive:
The “conclusion that the immaterial mind exists” doesn’t bring any of the kinds of empirical or model-based content that qualifies it for consideration.
Do you mean to say that even the fact that it is self-evidently true does not qualify it for consideration in your book? As I said, your god bids you pound at the square pegs, and you pound away. I am so sorry.
It doesn’t have what it takes to play on that field.
Which must mean -- since it is true -- that we should play in another field. Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
01:58 PM
1
01
58
PM
PDT
But we also do not know, of necessity, and a priori, what characteristics obtain from the whole, just by examining the features of the parts.
Maybe it will help you understand if I put it this way. You and I are talking about different "wholes." I am talking about the "whole" immaterial mind. You are talking about the "whole" brain. There is no part of the immaterial mind that consists of any physical thing. Therefore, to say that physical parts can be combined to create an immaterial mind that has properties different from those parts is literally meaningless. You may counter that the only way that argument works is if I assume the immaterial mind exists in the first place. And you would be almost right. I don't assume the immaterial mind exists. I know that it does.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
No, that would be again, to commit the same error! I’m at a loss as to how to get this concept through to you, at this point. We don’t have access, a priori to what is necessarily true either way.
And I don't see how to get this through to you: Just because you say that does not make it true. We can, as a matter of logic, assert a priori that physical things cannot be joined together to create immaterial things.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
May
05
May
13
13
2015
01:45 PM
1
01
45
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

Leave a Reply