Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
Oh, and something else I feel compelled to add. One advantage "creative genes" have over "creative designer" is that the former is just a figure of speech describing the potential of evolutionary mechanisms. No evolutionary biologist would say that perhaps the flagellum emerged complete in one generation, because genes are just that darn creative, don't you know? Conversely, I've never heard an IDer deny that it's at least possible that that's exactly what happened.Lenoxus
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
05:29 AM
5
05
29
AM
PDT
Suddenly I'm curious: Why isn't the intelligent design hypothesis the more parsimonious assertion that some genes or genomes are themselves literally intelligent, or possess a property of intelligence? This was something that occurred to me when reading from The Edge of Evolution — the question of why design can only be realistically claimed for a few biological structures at most, and why nearly all of them could be accounted for by evolution. Could it be that "design", if it exists in biology, is itself a sort of inherited trait, which may be gained or lost in unusual circumstances? This would certainly excuse the designer for any supposed "bad design", because "design" would not be responsible for the whole shebang. It might also be testable; for example, one might propose that most immediate descendants of "designed" creatures, such as flagellum-propelled bacteria, should also develop complex structures in some way that defies known biology (for example, in one generation, or with a lot of intermediates that ought to die but don't). Heck, maybe the passage of this "design gene" down one particular evolutionary pathway, but not all of them, ultimately lead to humans and all the nifty things that distinguish us from other primates. One answer to my question may be "well, there is no empirical evidence that genes possess intelligence", but I'm pretty sure there's just as little empirical evidence that they are created or modified by an extremely powerful immaterial mind. (Created/modified, maybe, immaterial being, no. Among other things, how in the world do we know that it is immaterial?)Lenoxus
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
05:20 AM
5
05
20
AM
PDT
Hello again, Dr Sewell, Re the two Olan R. Hyndmans. You appear to be right - after a bit of searching I found an Olan R. Hyndman in a list of Iowa authors (posted by the University of Iowa Library). His birth year is given as 1899, so he is unlikely to be popping up online in this century!leenibus
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
05:16 AM
5
05
16
AM
PDT
Unrelated comment: I notice Steven Meyer's book is still #550 on amazon.com. Also uniformly top reviews, so far.Granville Sewell
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
04:14 AM
4
04
14
AM
PDT
Mereologist, I thought I made it pretty clear that I was not discussing whether or not Rostand's ideas, or ID, are "good" science, but whether they are science at all. We keep hearing that ID is "not science" and thus it doesn't matter how much evidence we find for it, it has to be discarded a priori. My question is, on what basis can you discard ID before looking at the evidence, when almost identical ideas are taken seriously by scientists like Rostand, and housed in the biology library of a National Laboratory? And obviously, there is more evidence that the brain is capable of creativity than that the genes are. The point is, if you accept the first premise, you can't exclude the second, a priori, as "not science", BEFORE looking at the evidence. Granville Sewell
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
03:04 AM
3
03
04
AM
PDT
Leenibus, This is obviously not the same Olan Hyndman. The web site you link to is dated 1999, the book I read is dated 1952. In this book, Hyndman says "I have one strong faith, that scientific phenomena are invariable...any exception is as unthinkable as to maintain that thunderbolts are tossed as us by a man-made god named Zeus." This Hyndman was most definitely NOT a young-earth creationist! Nice try though. If you really want to buy the book, it appears to be sold here: http://www.adamsavebooks.com/ap_hyndman_olan_r.html. He basically proposed a Lamarkian alternative to Darwinism.Granville Sewell
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
02:43 AM
2
02
43
AM
PDT
Dr Sewell, On a side issue, have you had a chance to re-read Olan Hyndman’s book some thirty years on, in the light of your current perception of Intelligent Design’s aims and goals? I cannot judge the book as I have not been able to find any online summary or excerpts using Google. However, I did find that Olan Hyndman has a website: http://timelinescroll.com/ It clearly shows that he advocates bible-based Young Earth Creationism. Citing him may not serve to promote the view of ID as science rather than a thinly disguised religious viewpoint.leenibus
July 6, 2009
July
07
Jul
6
06
2009
01:06 AM
1
01
06
AM
PDT
Re 17 "It’s also obvious that you’ve presupposed the same answer about DNA." I just asked a question which you did not answer. As for the presupposed part its Yockey making the claim that DNA sequences and written messages are mathematically the same. Vividvividbleau
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
10:39 PM
10
10
39
PM
PDT
@Graham:
...all I can say is that materialism has provided us with everything we undertand about the universe, ie: it is productive, and the supernatural hasnt given us anything, ie: its un-productive.
You're simply begging the question. You have to assume that materialism explains things like morality, consciousness, life, and how the universe came into being in order to make your assertion about its supposed productivity. I can just as easily claim that revelation has provided us with more of an understanding than materialism ever will.Phinehas
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PDT
To lamarck (is that really you?) Here we go again. Materialism isnt proven/falsified or anything else. It is simply assumed. Its way too Jesuitical for me to try to justify that, all I can say is that materialism has provided us with everything we undertand about the universe, ie: it is productive, and the supernatural hasnt given us anything, ie: its un-productive. So, which horse would you back ?Graham
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
08:25 PM
8
08
25
PM
PDT
Graham, look into how falsifiability and preponderance of evidence harmonize and collide here. Can materialism ever be falsified in the way you ask of ID? How wide does ID have to make the materialism of the gaps through falsifiability before you side with the preponderance of evidence?lamarck
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
I think mereologist (#5) got it in one. ID isnt science because it can never be falsified. If God did it (or a designer/creator/whatever) then presumably he could do it any way he pleases. He could introduce junk DNA, similarities to other species, differences, whatever. We cant possibly say that any of these features is 'predicted' because we dont know the mind of the designer. Thats why materialist science is productive, and ID is not (even after 10+ years).Graham
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
07:51 PM
7
07
51
PM
PDT
vivid said:
A written message and DNA sequences are mathematically the same...For the anti ID people if you are walking along the heath and find a written message what would you conclude?
I'm trying very hard to think of some property that living systems have that sand doesn't... Some postulated process that might apply to the former, but not normally to the latter... By the way, you should try to be more careful how you phrase your question. It's quite telling. If you're asking me about a "written message", it's obvious that there was, by definition, a writer. It's also obvious that you've presupposed the same answer about DNA.Tajimas D
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
07:37 PM
7
07
37
PM
PDT
Dr Sewell, It looks as if, 30 years on, Rostand's theory of creative genes has not produced the necessary predictions to become accepted mainstream science. It seems to fall into that category of French frustration with the success of an English theory. Oh well. So are there "creative genes"? It seems not. So the basis for your questions evaporates.Nakashima
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
07:19 PM
7
07
19
PM
PDT
"vivid this may be the quote your looking for:" born yes thats it thanks.For the anti ID people if you are walking along the heath and find a written message what would you conclude? Chance? Neccessity? Intelligence? Vividvividbleau
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
06:26 PM
6
06
26
PM
PDT
This may be of interest to you as well: Functional information and the emergence of bio-complexity: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak: Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define 'functional information,' I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity. For a given system and function, x (e.g., a folded RNA sequence that binds to GTP), and degree of function, Ex (e.g., the RNA-GTP binding energy), I(Ex)= -log2 [F(Ex)], where F(Ex) is the fraction of all possible configurations of the system that possess a degree of function > Ex. Functional information, which we illustrate with letter sequences, artificial life, and biopolymers, thus represents the probability that an arbitrary configuration of a system will achieve a specific function to a specified degree. In each case we observe evidence for several distinct solutions with different maximum degrees of function, features that lead to steps in plots of information versus degree of functions. http://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Hazen_etal_PNAS_2007.pdf Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUeCgTN7pOo Entire Durston Video: http://www.seraphmedia.org.uk/ID.xmlbornagain77
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
06:26 PM
6
06
26
PM
PDT
vivid this may be the quote your looking for: H.P. Yockey also notes in the Journal of Theoretical Biology: It is important to understand that we are not reasoning by analogy. The sequence hypothesis applies directly to the protein and the genetic text as well as to written language and therefore the treatment is mathematically identical: "Self Organization Origin of Life Scenarios and Information Theory," J. Theoret. Biol.bornagain77
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
Seversky @4:
It is certainly nothing like the information stored in books or contained in these posts.
I don't see the big difference. The information in books can be digitized and the information in these posts are certainly digitized in our computers and servers. Genetic information is certainly based on a digitized code that can be read and interpreted by cellular machinery. The only difference between the taw is that computer information uses a binary code whereas genetic information uses a quarternary code. A code or information, in the Turing sense, is a string of symbols that can be interpreted by a reader and created by a writer. Even if the code/reader/writer system can modify itself, the initial input code must be designed. This definition fits the genetic code just as much as Egyptian hierogliphics, the binary voltages in my computer memory or the markings my books.Mapou
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
06:01 PM
6
06
01
PM
PDT
"No it is not letters such as in a book of English sentences, but it similar in that the sequences of nucleotides like the sequences of letters mean something." It is a four letter chemical alphabet. I read somewhere , but I dont remember where, that DNA is not analogous to a written message rather it is actually a written message. A written message and DNA sequences are mathematically the same. Anyone remember something similar or is my memory faulty? Vividvividbleau
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
05:04 PM
5
05
04
PM
PDT
Crick and Watson in 1953 immediately identified the DNA sequences as information even before they knew the full implications of the sequences. It is only on this site that some people fail to see the information in DNA. No it is not letters such as in a book of English sentences, but it similar in that the sequences of nucleotides like the sequences of letters mean something.jerry
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
04:58 PM
4
04
58
PM
PDT
"Yes, if we came across an unknown building that was not a bookstore but contained thousands of books on shelves we might reasonably think it was a library of some sort because it looks like libraries we build." Correct. "DNA, however, looks nothing like a library. It’s too small to be seen with the naked eye for a start. In fact, we can barely image it with our most powerful instruments. There are no tiny books in there which we can pick off shelves to read." But when scientists try to examine it and tell us laypeople that it contains the equivalent of 1,000 encyclopedias, and we laypeople know that 1,000 encyclopedias can only be the product of design, why not infer design here? "Is it a repository of information? That depends on what you mean by “information”. It is certainly nothing like the information stored in books or contained in these posts. Perhaps, as Australian philosopher John Wilkins has suggested, information theory is useful as an analogy but it is misleading to think that DNA contains information in the sense that we normally use the word." I disagree. Consider what geneticist Maciej Giertych noted regarding DNA and RNA: "We have become aware of the massive information contained in the genes. There is no known way to science how that information can arise spontaneously. It requires an intelligence; it cannot arise from chance events. Just mixing letters does not produce words." "The emphasis above was on the word “looks” because the whole Paleyist case rests on appearance. But looks can be deceptive." They can be, but oftentimes, what you see is what you get. "That was Dawkins’s point. We would think the watch on Paley’s heath was designed, even if we had never seen one before, because it looks like things we design. But suppose, instead of a watch, some time-traveler from the future left something like one of those “data crystals” used for information storage in TV science-fiction shows like Babylon 5 or Stargte SG-1." If we aren't sure what it is, then the logical conclusion is to say so, and study it. "Imagine you were the walker on heath and stumbled across one. Would you think it was designed or just some unusual but naturally-occurring crystal?" I wouldn't know without further information but I wouldn't go making fantastical claims that it was from the future, either. "Some people think living things look designed because - in some respects - they look like things we design. But in other respects, like DNA and a library, they look nothing like past or present human artefacts." For anyone to say something isn't designed, they have to know what designed means. "There is an all-too-human tendency to focus on the similarities and ignore the differences even though they may be as or more significant. That can be a mistake. There are berries which are tasty and nutritious for us to eat; there are other berries, which look similar but which would make us very ill if not kill us. As before, appearances can be deceptive." Whether or not berries are poisonous are not has no bearing on the question of how they got there in the first place.Barb
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
03:48 PM
3
03
48
PM
PDT
Seversky, There are so many problems with your post ... Time preculdes me from answering the majority. But one point made me start thinking: You pointed to the analogous “data crystals” used for information storage in TV science-fiction shows like Babylon 5 or Stargte SG-1. Then you asked for us to imagine we were walking on heath and stumbled across one. I like the idea. My problem is the singular dimensionality of your response. Firstly, Paley's watch was different to everything else on that non-mechanistic beach so it was a singularity. the same if I was to find the crystal in a non-crytalline environment. To this point, there's nothing really to note. Secondly, though, Paley's watch DID something. It was 'alive' and was not some lifeless such as the rocks, or just moved because of the wind of the current. Your crystals (if i've got this right) if I were to look at them with some interest may also have something of 'potential' within. Thirdly, the watch and the 'crystals' both do something amazing. One is able to keep track of time ... an amazing feature! Did that ability just happen? Did the crystals that allow teleportation/medical cures/etc just happen? If I was to find this crystal on the beach with further inspection I would be QUITE amazed!!! Lastly, you state about the size of dna: "There are no tiny books in there which we can pick off shelves to read." Well, we are starting to READ it ... but more importantly Paley and your science-fiction crystals shows miniaturisation: A skill to create objects smaller that function better. Isn't that a skill? Might we find that skill being shown in extreme in DNA? Paley's analogy still is quite strong.AussieID
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
Seversky wrote "But suppose, instead of a watch, some time-traveler from the future left something like one of those “data crystals” used for information storage in TV science-fiction shows like Babylon 5 or Stargte SG-1. Imagine you were the walker on heath and stumbled across one. Would you think it was designed or just some unusual but naturally-occurring crystal?" The analogy does not work because you didn't test the crystal to see if it is more than just junk DNA. If the crystal was tested and found to be an information media then your assumption would be falsified no?IRQ Conflict
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
Barb wrote @ 3
“It looks designed, but it’s not.” - paraphrasing Richard Dawkins. That statement always struck me as being deeply idiotic. A library contains many hundreds of books; it was probably designed and built and stocked. A strand of DNA contains enough information to fill 1,000 encyclopedias; it was designed brought about by chance and mutation. Come on. This is common sense at work.
Yes, if we came across an unknown building that was not a bookstore but contained thousands of books on shelves we might reasonably think it was a library of some sort because it looks like libraries we build. DNA, however, looks nothing like a library. It's too small to be seen with the naked eye for a start. In fact, we can barely image it with our most powerful instruments. There are no tiny books in there which we can pick off shelves to read. Is it a repository of information? That depends on what you mean by "information". It is certainly nothing like the information stored in books or contained in these posts. Perhaps, as Australian philosopher John Wilkins has suggested, information theory is useful as an analogy but it is misleading to think that DNA contains information in the sense that we normally use the word. The emphasis above was on the word "looks" because the whole Paleyist case rests on appearance. But looks can be deceptive. That was Dawkins's point. We would think the watch on Paley's heath was designed, even if we had never seen one before, because it looks like things we design. But suppose, instead of a watch, some time-traveler from the future left something like one of those "data crystals" used for information storage in TV science-fiction shows like Babylon 5 or Stargte SG-1. Imagine you were the walker on heath and stumbled across one. Would you think it was designed or just some unusual but naturally-occurring crystal? Some people think living things look designed because - in some respects - they look like things we design. But in other respects, like DNA and a library, they look nothing like past or present human artefacts. There is an all-too-human tendency to focus on the similarities and ignore the differences even though they may be as or more significant. That can be a mistake. There are berries which are tasty and nutritious for us to eat; there are other berries, which look similar but which would make us very ill if not kill us. As before, appearances can be deceptive. Intelligent Design cannot be absolutely ruled out as an explanation but its proponents, if they wish to make any headway persuading the scientific community that it is more than an outside chance, will have to show that it explains more and explains it better than the theory of evolution.Seversky
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PDT
Granville Sewell asks:
To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? ...Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”...
Saying that something "isn't science" is ambiguous. It can mean that something isn't science at all because it is not empirically testable and falsifiable, or it can simply mean that something isn't good science because it doesn't fit the evidence. Phrenology is an example of something that is science, since it is testable and falsifiable, but not good science, since it is unsupported by evidence. Likewise with Rostand's theory. To the extent that it puts forward falsifiable hypotheses, ID can be science in the first sense. It is not good science, though, because the evidence is solidly against it.
But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and not to another?
I'm glad to hear that you agree that the human brain is capable of creativity. I suspect that other ID supporters here would deny that, instead attributing creativity to an immaterial mind or soul. As for why Rostand's theory is bad science, just compare the structure of the brain to the structure of genes. Brains are extremely complex structures containing highly specialized information processing circuits. Genes are not. Also, there is no evidence of a mechanism by which genes could creatively direct their own mutations. ID is bad science because 1) It requires us to assume the existence of an intelligent designer for whom there is no independent evidence; this is reminiscent of Molière's fictional doctor who "explains" why opium puts people to sleep by saying that it contains a "dormitive principle". 2) It predicts and explains next to nothing, compared to the impressive predictive and explanatory capabilities of modern evolutionary theory. 3) It is at odds with the evidence, unless we posit a designer who selects a method of design that is indistinguishable from unguided evolution. But if the designer chooses such a method, then one can only assert his existence in spite of the evidence, not because of it. This is a matter of faith, not science.mereologist
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
12:21 PM
12
12
21
PM
PDT
OF course it is Barb. But as Joseph so aptly put it, there is no place like home.IRQ Conflict
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
11:41 AM
11
11
41
AM
PDT
"It looks designed, but it's not." - paraphrasing Richard Dawkins. That statement always struck me as being deeply idiotic. A library contains many hundreds of books; it was probably designed and built and stocked. A strand of DNA contains enough information to fill 1,000 encyclopedias; it was designed brought about by chance and mutation. Come on. This is common sense at work.Barb
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PDT
If one does the same experiment as another scientist but concludes something different, is that science? Few would say it is not science because that is what science is about, exploring various explanations. If the conclusion is that an intelligent input might explain the results better than a naturalistic one, is the process still science? If this conclusion leads to numerous experiments or analyses that fail to support a naturalistic process, is this science? Is the intelligent explanation more supported or not.jerry
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
08:20 AM
8
08
20
AM
PDT
Anything but design. Anything but a designer. Keep saying that over and over- then repeat. ;)Joseph
July 5, 2009
July
07
Jul
5
05
2009
08:00 AM
8
08
00
AM
PDT
1 5 6 7

Leave a Reply