Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

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I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
Ya see David your position boils down to the refusal to accept design as an explanation. You don't have any positive evidence to support your claims. If you did you would just post it and be done.Joseph
July 7, 2009
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David Kellogg, I learned my tactics from evolutionists who never substantiate anything they claim. I love using their tactics against them and them sitting back and watching them implode.Joseph
July 7, 2009
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Clive:
Sure, I’ll agree with you up to that point, but the information content and meaningfulness isn’t physically transported in the ability to see, nor in the material composition of your computer screen, it is immaterial.
Are you saying that information is immaterial in the substance dualist sense? Do you think materialists believe in information, according to your usage of the term?
The very fact that anything can add to your understanding is an a priori reason to reject materialistic theories of mind, for it shows ability outside of material changes, for an argument doesn’t physically do anything to your material.
If communicating information to a computer can change its state and behavior, is that an a priori reason to reject materialistic theories of computers?R0b
July 7, 2009
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Rude:
“I could as easily say that supernaturalism is the denial of purpose …” Who said anything about the supernatural? Anyway, Lenoxus, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, but if you’re really interested in the subject I sugest you begin to familiarize yourself with the ID literature. You might end up disagreeing but at least it would be with what we are saying.
I'm responding to the charge that for the materialist (who believes in nothing but material forces and, I allow, the metaphysical) there is no source of ultimate purpose. My response is that for me, ultimate purpose is part and parcel with the existence of life, whereas for the immaterialist/supernaturalist/whatever, that purpose must be tethered to God — subtract God and you subtract purpose, even if living beings remain. Anyway, I'm pretty sure ID officially has nothing to say about the meaning of life, or if it does, that part of ID has nothing to do with what it wants to be, which is an accepted scientific theory.Lenoxus
July 7, 2009
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Rude (#79) wrote: "Who said anything about the supernatural? ...if you’re really interested in the subject I sugest you begin to familiarize yourself with the ID literature." Good idea. Let's begin with the Wedge Document. It starts "The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles... Does that sound like science or supernaturalism? Does that sound like it would support science or creationism?PaulBurnett
July 7, 2009
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Davem, I read that too in Discovery magazine. They're not biased or anything. ;)Clive Hayden
July 7, 2009
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The Darwinists here might want to respond to Discovery magazine's challenge:
Can you communicate the most important idea in biology, and one of the most controversial ideas in our society, in a mere 120 seconds? Think you can convince even the most hard-headed creationist that Darwin was right? If so, show us—and that creationist—how it's done. Your task is to create a video of no more than two minutes that will get the idea and significance of evolution across to an educated lay audience. Along the way, you can touch on points like how evolution works, how we know it to be true, the evolution of humanity, and the future of evolution.
Science Against Evolution's entry is decent:http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v13i9f.htmDavem
July 7, 2009
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David Kellogg, ------"Clive, your comment asserting the non-materiality of mental activity seems like a lot of woo to me." Your comment asserting that the non-materiality of mind is unhelpful seems like a lot of nonsense to me. Assertions that things are "unhelpful" is itself unhelpful; you need to say how it is unhelpful, and in this regard saying that things are unhelpful doesn't say why it's unhelpful, which is especially unhelpful. Clive Hayden
July 6, 2009
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JTaylor #64:
You didn’t look hard enough. There is plenty of information that suggests either there is no benefit, or if there is benefit it is due to other causes. http://faculty.une.edu/com/shartman/sram.pdf http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/cranial.html Who’s right? I don’t honestly know. But there seems to be plenty of reason to be quite skeptical.
I’ll agree with you to a point regarding the lack of controlled experiments demonstrating the efficacy of cranial therapy in alleviating the symptoms of Down syndrome, but I don't know if the implications you're making about osteopathy in general are warranted. Any good osteopath would tell you there's no evidence that Down syndrome is a physical problem affecting the material composition of the brain. It is immaterial. All things being equal, it couldn't hurt to include osteopathic treatments as a part of a special education curriculum.Ludwig
July 6, 2009
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Upright BiPed says:
Tom will no doubt lead the charge to bring (S)cience into an appropriate level of agnosticism on the matter of origins.
Nobelist Tom (Cech) already has taken the lead. He says that it would take a time machine to know what really happened, and that OOL research is "a different kind of science."T M English
July 6, 2009
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"I could as easily say that supernaturalism is the denial of purpose ..." Who said anything about the supernatural? Anyway, Lenoxus, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but if you're really interested in the subject I sugest you begin to familiarize yourself with the ID literature. You might end up disagreeing but at least it would be with what we are saying.Rude
July 6, 2009
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Lenoxus @75:
Or are the contributions of supernaturalism/immaterialism/theism mainly in the philosophical realm, where we can wonder about things like the origin of mind and reason? Does it contribute anything concrete to our understanding of mind, besides a proposed explanation of its origin?
I think this is a fair question. The non-materialists (I included) have not provided any clear answers that would tilt the weight of the debate in their favor. In the eyes of the materialists, this is the Achilles’ heel of non-materialism. I am a Christian and yet I agree with the logic of their argument in this regard. The hard and nasty truth is that we, non-materialists and creation/design believers have no more a leg to stand on than the UFO crowd. We need to provide incontrovertible evidence of the superiority of our worldview. Otherwise, we are tilting at windmills.Mapou
July 6, 2009
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Joseph: "Pasteur- of germ theory fame- was a Creationist." Would anyone here argue that the germ theory of disease is a creationist theory, or one predicted by creationism? If not, is it at least an immaterial theory? Clive Hayden: "What empirical evidence do you have that tells you you should have empirical evidence?" If one were to argue about how empiricism accounts for itself, that would be a circular and useless argument. One thing I've never seen anyone demonstrate is some way in which empiricism actively contradicts itself. Unless, of course, you want to go the route of "everyone knows you can't have logic and reason without a non-empirically-detectable God making it that way". In any case, there's no reason the container has to contain itself to be useful — it just has to contain something. And so far, to stretch that metaphor to the breaking point, methodological supernaturalism hasn't been shown to be able to "contain", or account for explanatorily, any known phenomenon. "If popular thought believes that scientific thought is more reliable than any other kind of thought, popular thought is mistaken." And yet ID wants to join this thing called science? Also, I'm curious: What is the most reliable kind of thought, when it comes to determining principles and facts of the physical world? Is scientific medicine, for example, going about things completely the wrong way? What about engineering? Is there an immaterialist source of renewable energy people should know about? Or are the contributions of supernaturalism/immaterialism/theism mainly in the philosophical realm, where we can wonder about things like the origin of mind and reason? Does it contribute anything concrete to our understanding of mind, besides a proposed explanation of its origin?Lenoxus
July 6, 2009
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Rude:
Materialism is the denial of purpose—that there is no purpose to discover other than that which we choose for ourselves.
I could as easily say that supernaturalism is the denial of purpose—that there is no purpose to discover other than that which intelligence supernatural forces choose for themselves. As long as I'm going with this word-in-mouth-putting, I'll add: All explanation begins with something—something that cannot be explained. The supernaturalist wants to explain everything via immaterial forces—which are themselves unexplainable at their deepest level. The supernaturalist does not like the idea of ultimate purpose—after all, any "ultimate purpose" must remain subservient to the divine base of the universe; God does not answer to purpose, purpose answers to God. Why should this be so? Why does not purpose head the list? Okay, so here's what I beleive. The metaphysical does not require the supernatural. I believe in love. I believe that, at one level, it can be "reduced" to electrical and chemical reactions, just as a delicious meal can be "reduced" to those things. I believe that, at another level, love is entirely a thing unto itself, an abstraction, a beautiful experience. I do not believe that this is a major contradiction. Where there are thinking and feeling beings like ourselves, there will be love, beauty, morality, and so forth, no matter what. If you wish to argue that the neural and chemical interactions which build up to these things are themselves impossible without a creator, fine — but don't tell me that those things have no worth or existence in themselves. Don't take those away from me and my fellow mortals, just so you can give them to God. Don't argue that beings could think and feel but still have worthless lives. For the supernaturalist, on the other hand, nothing is either good or bad, or beautiful, or meaningful, but the divine creator makes it so. Or at least, that's the sense I'm getting from these arguments that if you subtract a creator, you subtract all that other stuff. I don't really believe that you believe that.Lenoxus
July 6, 2009
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Seversky @70:
The difference is that the encyclopedia contains information that was written as such to inform human readers. The degree to which it can be compressed or its complexity - whatever that might mean - are irrelevant. It is semantic information. Its value lies in the meaning it conveys between the human author and the human reader. Whatever is encapsulated in DNA it is not information in that sense.
How do you know that? It is true that when a computer programmer uses a high-level language such as c++ to write source code an application, the code can indeed be read and interpreted by another programmer. However, after compilation into native code, the resulting strings of zeros and ones are not meant for human consumption and a human would have an extremely hard time deciphering them. Yet, it is still information. I suggest that the genetic code is the result of an analogical process. The designers must have had all sorts of high-level tools with which to mix and reuse existing virtual sub-programs in many otherwise unrelated organisms before conducting actual in-vivo experiments. This is an example of a cut-and-paste approach to design that could not exist if evolution were true. It is a fact that many genetic code segments are laterally distributed among living organisms in a way that destroys the Darwinian tree of life, the same tree that was given as a prediction of evolution and was supposed to be a test of common descent. Now, I realize that your objection is that horizontal gene transfer is known to happen in viruses but I would contend that there are a huge number of much more complex organisms that do not exchange genes but that nevertheless show gene kinship that could only have happened via lateral transfers. Since the transfers do not occur naturally, it is only logical to assume that they did so artificially. Like it or lump it, this is a clear sign of intelligent design.Mapou
July 6, 2009
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iconofid (#38) correctly pointed out: "(Steven Meyer’s book) "Signature in the cell" is leading its category, Amazon tells us: “#1 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Christianity > Theology > Creationism" That's because (as I have previously pointed out) it was published not by an actual science publishing house, but by HarperOne, a religious publishing house.PaulBurnett
July 6, 2009
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Clive Hayden (#52) wrote: "All achievements have been made because of our thought processes..." Here's a thought process experiment: Suppose there were super-intelligent dolphins (or jellyfish or kiwi birds), with no capability whatsoever to manipulate their materialistic world. Even with highly advanced thought processes, how would they build a materialist civilization? How would they cure their sick and decrease their infant mortality rate and increase their food supply? You wrote earlier (#32) "Our minds gave us those innovations, not our materials." With the best of all possible minds, but no way to do anything with any material, how could my hypothetical super-dolphins' minds have any material innovations?PaulBurnett
July 6, 2009
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Clive, your comment asserting the non-materiality of mental activity seems like a lot of woo to me. Joseph, your comment
And why do you just get to say things without having to substantiate it?
is very amusing coming from you. Unsubstantiated drive-by comments are your métier.David Kellogg
July 6, 2009
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But it is information non the less.IRQ Conflict
July 6, 2009
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Mapou @ 12
Seversky @4:
It is certainly nothing like the information stored in books or contained in these posts.
I don’t see the big difference. The information in books can be digitized and the information in these posts are certainly digitized in our computers and servers. Genetic information is certainly based on a digitized code that can be read and interpreted by cellular machinery. The only difference between the taw is that computer information uses a binary code whereas genetic information uses a quarternary code
The difference is that the encyclopedia contains information that was written as such to inform human readers. The degree to which it can be compressed or its complexity - whatever that might mean - are irrelevant. It is semantic information. Its value lies in the meaning it conveys between the human author and the human reader. Whatever is encapsulated in DNA it is not information in that sense.Seversky
July 6, 2009
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AussieID @ 8
I like the idea. My problem is the singular dimensionality of your response. Firstly, Paley’s watch was different to everything else on that non-mechanistic beach so it was a singularity. the same if I was to find the crystal in a non-crytalline environment. To this point, there’s nothing really to note.
Paley's argument was not that the watch looked different from what was around it but that in itself it looked designed
Secondly, though, Paley’s watch DID something. It was ‘alive’ and was not some lifeless such as the rocks, or just moved because of the wind of the current. Your crystals (if i’ve got this right) if I were to look at them with some interest may also have something of ‘potential’ within.
Again, Paley made the point that even if the traveler had never seen a watch before and had no idea how it was supposed to work or even if it was supposed to do anything at all, he would still infer design simply on the basis of what it looked like.Seversky
July 6, 2009
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Tom will no doubt lead the charge to bring (S)cience into an appropriate level of agnosticism on the matter of origins. :)Upright BiPed
July 6, 2009
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Barb @ 9
But when scientists try to examine it and tell us laypeople that it contains the equivalent of 1,000 encyclopedias, and we laypeople know that 1,000 encyclopedias can only be the product of design, why not infer design here?
Because they say "equivalent" not 'the same as'. It is this problem of analogy again. The scientists are trying to give non-scientists some idea of the volume of "information" - for want of a better word - in a cell by expressing it in terms a layperson can better understand. It does not mean the cell contains information in the same sense as an encyclopedia or stores information in the same form as a book. In the use of any analogy it is important to be aware of its limitations, of the differences as well as the similarities.Seversky
July 6, 2009
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An interjection into the side discussion: Why explain experience in just one way? Why not maintain two or more belief systems in parallel? I contend that different belief systems have different utilities. When our objectives are prediction and control of phenomena, it is utterly impractical to accept that unobservable stuff may cause events. The success of science proceeding by methodological naturalism is undeniable. But life as a human being does not reduce to prediction and control of phenomena. There is much more to personal experience than that, including an ineluctable sense of oneself as an agent, responsible for one's own actions. It seems that IDers want terribly to make science "tell the truth" about the reality of agency. I have stated many times at UD, in various incarnations, that this amounts to gross overvaluation of science. I agree with what Feyerabend wrote about scientists [from 46]: "It is time to cut them down in size, and to give them a more modest position in society." But it seems to me that the ID movement wants to maintain the "high priest" status of scientists, and change out the priests (i.e., renew science and culture). I do not believe that science tells us the most important things to know in living our lives. Attempts to make science into some Hallowed Way to Truth distract people from what should be more important to them. And if those attempts were to succeed, they would make science less successful at what it presently does well.T M English
July 6, 2009
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IRQ Conflict @ 7
Seversky wrote “But suppose, instead of a watch, some time-traveler from the future left something like one of those “data crystals” used for information storage in TV science-fiction shows like Babylon 5 or Stargte SG-1. Imagine you were the walker on heath and stumbled across one. Would you think it was designed or just some unusual but naturally-occurring crystal?” The analogy does not work because you didn’t test the crystal to see if it is more than just junk DNA.
The point is that Paley's little parable of the watch did not involve any testing. His argument was that appearances alone are sufficient for us to infer design. My counter-example was just trying to illustrate the point that appearances alone are not sufficient.Seversky
July 6, 2009
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Ludwig: " haven’t run into any evidence that cranial therapy doesn’t improve the mental condition of Down syndrome patients, only half-witted philosophies that believe it to be, but have no real basis for it." You didn't look hard enough. There is plenty of information that suggests either there is no benefit, or if there is benefit it is due to other causes. http://faculty.une.edu/com/shartman/sram.pdf http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/cranial.html Who's right? I don't honestly know. But there seems to be plenty of reason to be quite skeptical.JTaylor
July 6, 2009
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JTaylor @ 42, From your link:
The Cranial Letter, published quarterly by the Cranial Academy, a component society of the American Academy of Osteopathy. The Summer 1993 issue stated that the Cranial Academy had 989 members. Other issues contained case reports stating that cranial therapy can cause knee pain to disappear within a week (Summer 1992), cure hives (Summer 1993), improve the mental condition of Down syndrome patients (May 1995), and correct crossed eyes (May 1996).
I haven’t run into any evidence that cranial therapy doesn't improve the mental condition of Down syndrome patients, only half-witted philosophies that believe it to be, but have no real basis for it.Ludwig
July 6, 2009
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Echidna-Levy, Sure, I'll agree with you up to that point, but the information content and meaningfulness isn't physically transported in the ability to see, nor in the material composition of your computer screen, it is immaterial.Clive Hayden
July 6, 2009
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Nakashima (49): You caught me in bad editing. I visited the ORNL site hoping to find A Biologist's View or an ID volume in the QH section of the library. I should have just omitted the link to the site when I failed.T M English
July 6, 2009
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Clive
It shows that our understanding is different than material movements that couldn’t have been otherwise. It shows that logic and reason are real laws that have real adherence within thought, and that speed, velocity, weight and direction of atoms doesn’t determine your thoughts anymore than the physical material of a book’s page determines the meaning of the words.
and because of that, what?
The very fact that anything can add to your understanding is an a priori reason to reject materialistic theories of mind, for it shows ability outside of material changes, for an argument doesn’t physically do anything to your material.
Then why do sections of the brain light up differently depending on what you are doing? And by "an argument doesn’t physically do anything to your material" I guess you mean that text on a screen like this does not change your mind, because it's immaterial? If that's so, would you agree that the "argument", in this case delivered via photons to the eyes from the monitor, changed something material? I.E. the eyes had a set of chemical reactions that ended with nerve signals being generated and sent down the optic nerve? Would you agree with me up to that point?Echidna-Levy
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