Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A 30-year old letter to the editor of the Purdue Exponent

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I was a visiting assistant professor (math/CS) at Purdue University in 1978-79, when I responded to a letter in the Purdue student newspaper (the Exponent), which compared those who doubt Darwin to “flat earthers”, as follows:

“Last year I surveyed the literature on evolution in the biology library of Oak Ridge National Laboratory and found Olan Hyndman’s The Origin of Life and the Evolution of Living Things in which he calls the neo-Darwinian theory of random mutation and natural selection `the most irrational and illogical explanation of natural phenomenon extant’ and proposes an alternative theory; Rene Dubos’ The Torch of Life in which he says `[The neo-Darwinian theory’s] real strength is that however implausible it may appear to its opponents they do not have a more plausible one to offer in its place’; and Jean Rostand’s A Biologist’s View in which he says that the variations which made up evolution must have been `creative and not random.’ Rostand, who elsewhere has called the neo-Darwinian theory a `fairy tale for adults,’ attributes this creativeness to the genes themselves, and says `quite a number of biologists do, in fact, fall back on these hypothetical variations to explain the major steps of evolution.’…I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.”

To those who dismiss intelligent design as “not science”, I would like to pose the same question again, 30 years later: why is it science to attribute the major steps of evolution to creativeness in the genes themselves, but not science to attribute them to creativeness originating outside the genes? That is the only difference between Jean Rostand’s theory and the theory of intelligent design. Most ID critics today would probably respond that Rostand’s theory should also be considered “not science”, in fact, it could be easily argued that Rostand—though an atheist–was himself an ID proponent. But we all agree that the human brain is capable of creativeness, so I would then respond: why is it science to attribute creativeness to one part of an organism and “not science” to attribute creativeness to another part?

PostScript—in light of some comments below, let me make it clear that the issue being discussed is NOT whether or not the evidence supports any of these ideas, but whether they can be dismissed a priori as “not science”, before looking at the evidence. Darwinism is obviously a scientific theory, whether it is good science is another question. If Rostand’s theory is accepted as scientific, and housed in the biology library of a National Lab, there seems to be no reason to reject ID as “not science”, before looking at the evidence, as most scientists today still do. And if it is scientific to attribute creativity to the brain, how can it be “unscientific” to attribute creativity to the genes, as Rostand does? Whether the evidence supports Rostand’s theory is a completely separate issue.

Comments
David Kellogg, ------"You’ve posted a version of that comment a thousand times, but I fail to see its relevance here. The burden is on the non-materialist to show us that a non-materialist view of mind adds anything to our understanding." It shows that our understanding is different than material movements that couldn't have been otherwise. It shows that logic and reason are real laws that have real adherence within thought, and that speed, velocity, weight and direction of atoms doesn't determine your thoughts anymore than the physical material of a book's page determines the meaning of the words. It's simple, really. The very fact that anything can add to your understanding is an a priori reason to reject materialistic theories of mind, for it shows ability outside of material changes, for an argument doesn't physically do anything to your material.Clive Hayden
July 6, 2009
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Granville Sewell (50),
Ad hominem attacks on a writer are much more effective and easier than dealing with what he wrote.
Only someone ignorant of recent intellectual history would think that it was an slur to refer to a Continental researcher of the early-to-mid 20th Century as “a liberal nature-philosopher of the old school.” Do you really think that Rostand's accomplishments in biology invalidate the characterization? You have deflected attention from the primary points of my comment, namely that A Biologist's View is a collection of philosophical aphorisms, not a work of science, and that natural philosophy is grouped with biology in the QH category of the Library of Congress classification system. I also cued you in to the fact that intelligent design is right there in the QH section as well. In other words, this statement of yours is obsolete:
I was not, however, able to find any books which suggested that this creativeness originated outside the chromosomes—these are restricted to theological libraries, because they deal with religion and not science, and their authors are compared to flat earthers in Exponent letters.
T M English
July 6, 2009
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Dr Sewell, Thank you, you are correct. I hadn't noticed.Nakashima
July 6, 2009
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Nakashima, "Where are the creative genes?" Actually, Rostand's idea that the variations (mutations) that made up the major steps of evolution must have been "creative, and not random" has been gaining steam for some time now in the scientific world, in case you haven't noticed. Whether this creativeness comes from inside or outside the genes is an as yet unanswered question.Granville Sewell
July 6, 2009
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Clive
I know I have to keep reminded the scientism folks here of this fact almost constantly
For somebody so keen to offer criticism on anothers writing you would have thought you'd put more care into your rare larger missive. Hoist with one's own petard?Echidna-Levy
July 6, 2009
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David Kellogg:
The burden is on the non-materialist to show us that a non-materialist view of mind adds anything to our understanding,
And who are you to make such a claim? And why do you just get to say things without having to substantiate it?Joseph
July 6, 2009
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Joseph,
And one way to refute that is to demonstrate that living organisms can arise from non-living matter without agency involvement.
You've posted a version of that comment a thousand times, but I fail to see its relevance here. The burden is on the non-materialist to show us that a non-materialist view of mind adds anything to our understanding.David Kellogg
July 6, 2009
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Lenoxus, ------"I’m curious if you could tell us what technological or scientific advancements have been achieved thanks specifically to non-materialist assumptions (not just non-materialist thinkers). The modern alethiometer? The medical theory of demonic possession? I admit I’m maybe being overly snarky. The thing is that I still haven’t run across any solid evidence for the supernatural in the first place, yet people keep asserting its existence all the time, and that science would recognize and incorporate it if only it didn’t unfairly rule it out altogether. Oh well." What empirical evidence do you have that tells you you should have empirical evidence? The distinction is not scientific v. non-scientific thought, for all science relies on inference, that is, it relies on proper thought, laws of logic and reason, which cannot be something seen in a beaker or read on a dial. It is, as they say, something in your head. All achievements have been made because of our thought processes, and on that, empiricism gets you nowhere as far as development, for empiricism relies on thought, and not the other way around. I know I have to keep reminded the scientism folks here of this fact almost constantly, always correcting their misconceptions that science somehow brings you out of the magical world of inference and into some direct communication with the world, something like osmosis. It doesn't. If popular thought believes that scientific thought is more reliable than any other kind of thought, popular thought is mistaken. For it is only on the power of thought to begin with that science even becomes known, not the other way around. I haven't run into any evidence that the natural world isn't supernatural, only half-witted philosophies that believe it to be, but have no real basis for it.Clive Hayden
July 6, 2009
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Dr Sewell, You are falling into the same trap that you are trying to criticise Mr English for. Address the ideas, not the man. 30 years later, where are "creative genes"?Nakashima
July 6, 2009
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T.M.English, Since you have used Google to try to find something negative about Jean Rostand, I decided to try my luck, and turned up the following short bio here "Jean Rostand: A world-renowned biologist, Rostand has received numerous awards and prizes for research into such areas as parthenogenesis, malformation in growth and structure of organisms, amphibian genetics, and cryogenics. He has written over 3 dozen scientific books and 16 short books on life and philosophy." Granville Sewell
July 6, 2009
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Mr English, Whether the book is in the library or not is a misplaced appeal to authority, in this case the aura (or should I say glow) of ORNL. The book has had 30 years to make an impact and has had none. I think that is a more serious criticism.Nakashima
July 6, 2009
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David Kellogg:
That assumes that mental activity is not an outcome of material processes.
And one way to refute that is to demonstrate that living organisms can arise from non-living matter without agency involvement.Joseph
July 6, 2009
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PaulBurnett:
Materialism has given us medicines to increase our lifespan, decrease infant mortality rates, cure diseases, and vastly increased food supplies. Plus technological toys used by some to carp against materialism.
Pasteur- of germ theory fame- was a Creationist. Nothing of what you stated is related to materialism.Joseph
July 6, 2009
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Rude, I agree with you that the scientific method is a myth. People have been successfully doing research and development (observation and experiment) for tens of thousands of years before anybody began talking about the scientific method. The Maya priests developed an astronomical system that allowed them to precisely predict lunar and solar eclipses thousands of years in advance, forward or backward. The scientific community is prone to self-dishonesty and prejudice just like every other human enterprise. They love to erect personality cults (idol worship) around many of their famous scientists to the detriment of objectivity. Nobody can say anything against the ideas of Einstein, Feynman, Darwin, Hawking, etc., with impunity. The result is that scienctific knowledge is forced to advance through paradigm shifting revolutions a la Thomas Kuhn. It wouldn't be so bad but lies and delusions find a way of surviving for years and even centuries within the community. It remains that true science is the product of diligence and brutal honesty. All IDers should read the work of Paul Feyrabend, especially his 'Against Method' in which he tears the scientific community a new orifice. Here's one of my favorite Feyrabend quotes:
"And a more detailed analysis of successful moves in the game of science ('successful' from the point of view of the scientists themselves) shows indeed that there is a wide range of freedom that demands a multiplicity of ideas and permits the application of democratic procedures (ballot-discussion-vote) but that is actually closed by power politics and propaganda. This is where the fairy-tale of a special method assumes its decisive function. It conceals the freedom of decision which creative scientists and the general public have even inside the most rigid and the most advanced parts of science by a recitation of 'objective' criteria and it thus protects the big-shots (Nobel Prize winners; heads of laboratories, of organizations such as the AMA, of special schools; 'educators'; etc.) from the masses (laymen; experts in non-scientific fields; experts in other fields of science): only those citizens count who were subjected to the pressures of scientific institutions (they have undergone a long process of education), who succumbed to these pressures (they have passed their examinations), and who are now firmly convinced of the truth of the fairy-tale. This is how scientists have deceived themselves and everyone else about their business, but without any real disadvantage: they have more money, more authority, more sex appeal than they deserve, and the most stupid procedures and the most laughable results in their domain are surrounded with an aura of excellence. It is time to cut them down in size, and to give them a more modest position in society."
From Against Method by Paul Feyerabend The good thing about the internet is that science is being democratized. People are slowly realizing that they can publish their thoughts and findings on scientific issues without having to go through the incestuous and mind numbing peer review system. I predict that the most earth shaking scientific discoveries in this century will come from outside of the traditional scientific community, from rebels and mavericks who simply refuse to be *ss kissers. The ID community will need a few hard nosed rebels of its own.Mapou
July 6, 2009
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Our minds gave us those innovations, not our materials
That assumes that mental activity is not an outcome of material processes.David Kellogg
July 6, 2009
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Granville asks,
on what basis can you discard ID before looking at the evidence, when almost identical ideas are taken seriously by scientists like Rostand, and housed in the biology library of a National Laboratory?
Rostrand's work is no longer in the ORNL research library. The library no doubt used call numbers assigned by the Library of Congress. Natural philosophy is lumped with biology in the QH category. Thus the Library of Congress call number for Dembski's No Free Lunch is QH360.5 .D46 2002. According to the entry on Rostrand in The Columbia Dictionary of Modern European Literature, "Rostrand is a liberal nature-philosopher of the old school." Furthermore, A Biologist's View is a book of aphorisms "more or less consciously evoking La Rouchefoucauld or even Blaise Pascal." Not every book authored by a self-identified biologist is a work of modern science.T M English
July 6, 2009
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Granville Sewell writes:
Mereologist, I thought I made it pretty clear that I was not discussing whether or not Rostand’s ideas, or ID, are “good” science, but whether they are science at all.
Granville, Your response is mystifying. I addressed that point directly and at length:
Phrenology is an example of something that is science, since it is testable and falsifiable, but not good science, since it is unsupported by evidence. Likewise with Rostand’s theory. To the extent that it puts forward falsifiable hypotheses, ID can be science in the first sense. It is not good science, though, because the evidence is solidly against it.
mereologist
July 6, 2009
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Ludwig: "To be fair, some pretty substantial medical advances have been made from assumptions that were arguably non-materialist or based on Chi or other “spiritual” forces. Just look at how mainstream osteopathy has become in the U.K." Firstly the claims of osteopathy are questionable: http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html Secondly, widespread or mainstream acceptance of a view or an ideology is not necessary ratification of that view (and I'm sure most ID supporters here would assent to this particularly in regards to how it applies to evolution). The UK does appear to have (too) readily embraced many dubious alternative practices - e.g., homeopathy, spiritualism, and many other New Age practices. But unfortunately when these are examined rigorously, quantitatively, and objectively, any real tangible benefits usually evaporate (e.g., http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=264)JTaylor
July 6, 2009
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Materialism is the denial of purpose—that there is no purpose to discover other than that which we choose for ourselves. In the long run what Intelligent Design ends up arguing is that mind does not arise from mechanism, rather mechanism arises from mind, that design is real and in our experience issues only from mind. It’s all a question of “elementarity”—what are the “skyhooks” (using Daniel Dennett’s term)---what is elemental and what is derivative. All explanation begins with something—something that cannot be explained. The materialist wants to explain everything via chance and necessity (a la Jacques Monod)—which are themselves unexplainable at their deepest level. The materialist does not like the idea of ultimate purpose. Why should this be so? Why does not purpose head the list? Is it perhaps a matter of time and chance—of the antireligious roots of the Enlightenment? I think so. Perhaps in another time and place—if such time and place could ever have provided an honest drive for truth—design would be elemental. Someday, I believe, design’s acceptance will initiate the greatest advance in the scientific revolution yet. “Is the scientific method spelled out in any Christian holy texts? If not, why not?” The reason, dear Devil’s Advocate, is that there is no such thing as “the scientific method”. Science uses nothing more than the observation, reason and authority common to every day life. Science—our collective human knowledge—is built up progressively through the efforts of many and via no special ingredients other than carefulness and honesty. And honesty—as in an honest quest for truth—usually ignored in efforts to define the scientific method—is now evaporating as our moral capital degrades and the politicization of everything metasticizes. “I’m curious if you could tell us what technological or scientific advancements have been achieved thanks specifically to non-materialist assumptions …” The rise of science itself and, as I said, nonmaterialist assumptions such as honesty and curiosity and the belief—deep within our bones—that things are ordered and beautiful and good. Reason itself is nonmaterial and science does not advance as an algorithm run on some machine.Rude
July 6, 2009
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Lenoxus @36:
I’m curious if you could tell us what technological or scientific advancements have been achieved thanks specifically to non-materialist assumptions (not just non-materialist thinkers). The modern alethiometer? The medical theory of demonic possession?
To be fair, some pretty substantial medical advances have been made from assumptions that were arguably non-materialist or based on Chi or other "spiritual" forces. Just look at how mainstream osteopathy has become in the U.K.Ludwig
July 6, 2009
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"Is the scientific method spelled out in any Christian holy texts? If not, why not?" I find it utterly amazing that in 2009 we still have people arguing these lines of thought. The capacity to separate their personal religion convictions from the empirical evidence is simply non-existent. Truly amazing.Upright BiPed
July 6, 2009
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Granville Sewell: "Unrelated comment: I notice Steven Meyer’s book is still #550 on amazon.com. Also uniformly top reviews, so far." I just checked, and it has slipped to #720. I looked at Jerry Coyne's "Evolution is True", (because it's also only available in hardback) and that was at #237 even though it has been out for 6 months. But never mind! "Signature in the cell" is leading its category, Amazon tells us: "#1 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Christianity > Theology > Creationism"iconofid
July 6, 2009
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Is materialism made up of material? Yes.
Now I'm fascinated. I've never understood the distinction between material and immaterial, but I assume that it has something to do with mass, or half-integer spin, or spacial location. Am I right? Does materialism have any of those properties?R0b
July 6, 2009
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Clive Hayden: "No it hasn’t. Our minds gave us those innovations, not our materials." I'm curious if you could tell us what technological or scientific advancements have been achieved thanks specifically to non-materialist assumptions (not just non-materialist thinkers). The modern alethiometer? The medical theory of demonic possession? I admit I'm maybe being overly snarky. The thing is that I still haven't run across any solid evidence for the supernatural in the first place, yet people keep asserting its existence all the time, and that science would recognize and incorporate it if only it didn't unfairly rule it out altogether. Oh well. bornagain77: "Christianity gave us science in the first place". I personally would argue that given that every culture in history has had its major religion, that particular "who gets to develop science" lottery had to be won by one of them. (Not to mention that significant pieces of modern science came from cultures that could variously be identified as Greek pagan, Hindu, and especially Muslim). Anyway, the relevant question is: does science today work from truly Christian assumptions, such as the doctrine of the Trinity? If not, should it? Is the scientific method spelled out in any Christian holy texts? If not, why not?Lenoxus
July 6, 2009
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R0b, Is materialism made up of material? Yes.Clive Hayden
July 6, 2009
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Clive:
No it hasn’t. Our minds gave us those innovations, not our materials.
Is materialism synonymous with materials?R0b
July 6, 2009
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Christianity gave us science in the first place: Christianity and the Birth of Science http://ldolphin.org/bumbulis/ excerpt: As Charles Hummel notes, "Newton's religion was no mere appendage to his science; he would have been a theist no matter what his profession." Boyle set up Christian apologetics lectures. Babbage and Prout contributed to an apologetics series called the Bridgewater Treatises. Aggasiz, Cuvier, Fleming, Kelvin, and Linnaeus were what we now call 'creationists.' When I speak about Biblical beliefs that paved the way for science, I will use both Kepler and Pasteur to highlight two specific examples. Furthermore, many of these founders of science lived at a time when others publicly expressed views quite contrary to Christianity - Hume, Hobbes, Darwin, etc. When Boyle argues against Hobbe's materialism or Kelvin argues against Darwin's assumptions, you don't have a case of "closet atheists."bornagain77
July 6, 2009
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PaulBurnett, ------"Materialism has given us medicines to increase our lifespan, decrease infant mortality rates, cure diseases, and vastly increased food supplies. Plus technological toys used by some to carp against materialism." No it hasn't. Our minds gave us those innovations, not our materials.Clive Hayden
July 6, 2009
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Joseph (#30) wrote: "ID can be falsified by demonstrating that nature, operating freely, can account for everything." and "BTW what contributations have materialism made? "Nature, operating freely," has given us short lifespans, high infant mortality rates, lots of diseases, limited food supplies, etc. Materialism has given us medicines to increase our lifespan, decrease infant mortality rates, cure diseases, and vastly increased food supplies. Plus technological toys used by some to carp against materialism.PaulBurnett
July 6, 2009
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Graham, ID can be falsified by demonstrating that nature, operating freely, can account for everything. IOW substantiate the claims made by the materialist position. BTW what contributations have materialism made?Joseph
July 6, 2009
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