Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
/// So every lawyer who loses a jury trial must be sued for malpractice for failure to introduce any evidence in support of his client’s case /// Every lawyer tries to produce evidence; whether that counts as evidence or not depends on how persuasive, rational and explanatory it is. Simple as that. The important point to note is that evidence should rule out competing hypotheses or make them unlikely.Evolve
March 22, 2015
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daveS, by golly its a small miracle, we actually agree on something. :) The 'muddying' was somewhat intentional so as to clearly draw out the 'agency' distinction that computers have no clue what they are doing. i.e. Carpenters drive nails using hammers, hammers do not drive nails by themselves and hammers have no clue whether they drove a nail or not. Thus, Hammers don't drive nails. Carpenters do! And again, mathematicians 'prove' (some) theorems using computers. Computers don't prove theorems by themselves and have no clue whether they proved a theorem or not. Thus my statement: "Computers don't prove theorems. Mathematicians do" The confusion on 'agent causality' within materialism goes deep and is profound. Materialists are constantly illegitimately invoking agent causality where they have no right to do so. In biology, materialists contantly ascribe 'agent causality' where they, if they were to stay consistent within their materialism, ought not. Stephen Talbott points out that it is impossible for materialists to describe the complexities of life without illegitimately using terminology that invokes agency,,,
The 'Mental Cell': Let’s Loosen Up Biological Thinking! - Stephen L. Talbott - September 9, 2014 Excerpt: Many biologists are content to dismiss the problem with hand-waving: “When we wield the language of agency, we are speaking metaphorically, and we could just as well, if less conveniently, abandon the metaphors”. Yet no scientist or philosopher has shown how this shift of language could be effected. And the fact of the matter is just obvious: the biologist who is not investigating how the organism achieves something in a well-directed way is not yet doing biology, as opposed to physics or chemistry. Is this in turn just hand-waving? Let the reader inclined to think so take up a challenge: pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness1. One reason this cannot be done is clear enough: molecular biology — the discipline that was finally going to reduce life unreservedly to mindless mechanism — is now posing its own severe challenges. In this era of Big Data, the message from every side concerns previously unimagined complexity, incessant cross-talk and intertwining pathways, wildly unexpected genomic performances, dynamic conformational changes involving proteins and their cooperative or antagonistic binding partners, pervasive multifunctionality, intricately directed behavior somehow arising from the interaction of countless players in interpenetrating networks, and opposite effects by the same molecules in slightly different contexts. The picture at the molecular level begins to look as lively and organic — and thoughtful — as life itself. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2014/mental_cell_23.htm
This working biologist agrees with Talbott:
Life, Purpose, Mind: Where the Machine Metaphor Fails - Ann Gauger - June 2011 Excerpt: I'm a working biologist, on bacterial regulation (transcription and translation and protein stability) through signalling molecules, ,,, I can confirm the following points as realities: we lack adequate conceptual categories for what we are seeing in the biological world; with many additional genomes sequenced annually, we have much more data than we know what to do with (and making sense of it has become the current challenge); cells are staggeringly chock full of sophisticated technologies, which are exquisitely integrated; life is not dominated by a single technology, but rather a composite of many; and yet life is more than the sum of its parts; in our work, we biologists use words that imply intentionality, functionality, strategy, and design in biology--we simply cannot avoid them. Furthermore, I suggest that to maintain that all of biology is solely a product of selection and genetic decay and time requires a metaphysical conviction that isn't troubled by the evidence. Alternatively, it could be the view of someone who is unfamiliar with the evidence, for one reason or another. But for those who will consider the evidence that is so obvious throughout biology, I suggest it's high time we moved on. - Matthew http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/life_purpose_mind_where_the_ma046991.html#comment-8858161
In physics, the confusion is for materialists to invoke agent causality to the universal laws and/or to material objects: C.S. Lewis humorously stated the point like this:
"to say that a stone falls to earth because it's obeying a law, makes it a man and even a citizen" - CS Lewis
The following ‘doodle video' is also excellent for getting this point across:
“In the whole history of the universe the laws of nature have never produced, (i.e. caused), a single event.” C.S. Lewis - doodle video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_20yiBQAIlk
Here is an excerpt of an article, (that is well worth reading in full), in which Dr. Gordon exposes Stephen Hawking’s delusion for thinking that mathematical description and agent causality are the same thing.
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Supplemental note:
What Properties Must the Cause of the Universe Have? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZWInkDIVI
Verses and Music:
Psalm 115:2-3 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Steven Curtis Chapman - God is God (Original Version) - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz94NQ5HRyk
bornagain77
March 22, 2015
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BA77, Ok, you've clarified your position, but you definitely did muddy the waters when you first stated:
Computers don't prove anything, Mathematicians use computers to do the tedious calculations for them so as to prove theorems for them!
followed by:
The point is not that computers can't be used to mechanically calculate certain problems FOR MATHEMATICIANS to a sufficient level of proof. I never even hinted that they can't.
I think we're more or less on the same page regarding this issue now.daveS
March 22, 2015
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tabasco, you said: "You’re confusing me with daveS." No I did not. I'm ignoring 'you'.bornagain77
March 22, 2015
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Box @ 42. Very good. You destroyed Evolve's argument in one sentence. Neat trick.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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Evolve @ 41
In short, there’s no consensus on what the word “evidence” actually means.
Yet the word "evolve" has a meaning. And that meaning is what English speakers generally intend when they use the word. And a dictionary is the usual place one goes to determine that. Evolve, when you are reduced to saying words have no meaning you have not only undermined your own argument, you have undermined the concept of argument itself. I know you have a very strong emotional stake in your atheism. But it should give you pause that you are willing to undermine rationality itself to prop up your beliefs. Sadly, I doubt that it will.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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Evolve @ 41
They’re missing the point that it won’t count as evidence if it is not persuasive in the first place.
So every lawyer who loses a jury trial must be sued for malpractice for failure to introduce any evidence in support of his client's case. After all, the jury was not persuaded by what the lawyer submitted. Therefore, it could not have been evidence. The conclusion follows logically from your premises. The conclusion is absurd. Therefore, your premises must be false.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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Evolve, Your quotations from the dictionaries are no evidence at all for your position, because they don't persuade me. So you have got nothing to back up your position.Box
March 22, 2015
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Barry and Torley are ridiculously wrong here. The worst part is they never understand their mistakes and keep on repeating the same nonsense. Perhaps one should never expect anything better from creationists. According to them, if someone mistakes a meteorite for a UFO, that counts as evidence for UFOs! If someone sees God in his dreams, that counts as evidence for God. If kids swear that Santa Claus is real, that’s evidence for the existence of Santa Claus. Their entire argument is based on some dictionary definition of the word “evidence”. But I can show you different dictionary definitions of the same word. Cambridge dictionaries say: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/evidence evidence = anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true Merriam-Webster says: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evidence evidence = something which shows that something else exists or is true These definitions don’t say that evidence is something which “indicates”, but something that “proves” or “shows” that something else is true. In short, there’s no consensus on what the word “evidence” actually means. But in a scientific context, evidence is something that persuades one to accept a claim. Barry & Torley falsely distinguishes between persuasive evidence and non-persuasive evidence. They’re missing the point that it won’t count as evidence if it is not persuasive in the first place.Evolve
March 22, 2015
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Bornagain77, Thank you for post #11
Bornagain77: In other words, his worldview boils down to an illusion of self having an illusion of free will!
I have yet to see a cogent response from the side of the materialists. It's just one of those arguments that makes one wonder why the debate is still ongoing.Box
March 22, 2015
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bornagain77,
you said you are not sure what I wrote means...
No, I didn't. You're confusing me with daveS.
Read carefully what I wrote, the computers are a tool to do the tedious, mechanical, calculations for the mathematicians. The mathematicians are final arbiters of if the theorem is proved true...
Exactly. The mathematicians aren't proving the theorem -- they're looking to see whether the computer succeeded in proving it. You're reinforcing my point. The computer does the proof.
...are [sic] if the computer needs to be reprogrammed so as to be able to mechanically calculate better. The computer has no clue as to whether it calculated a theorem to a sufficient level of proof or whether it calculated the price of tea in china to a sufficient level of accuracy.
You don't seem to understand how proofs work (or computation, for that matter). What is "a sufficient level of proof", to your mind?
The point is not that computers can’t be used to mechanically calculate certain problems FOR MATHEMATICIANS to a sufficient level of proof. I never even hinted that they can’t.
Not only can they prove theorems, they can even do it for non-mathematicians like you. If I teach you how to use a theorem-solver, you can enter a theorem and the computer will prove it for you, even if, as seems very likely, you have no idea how to do the proof on your own. In that scenario, you're certainly not doing the proof -- the computer system is.
The point I made clear was that computers have no conscious awareness of whether they calculated a mathematical proof or whether they calculated the price of tea in china.
What does consciousness have to do with it? Your garbage disposal isn't conscious, but the orange peel still gets ground up. The theorem prover isn't conscious, but the theorem still gets proven.
Goodnight. I’m off to bed.
Goodnight. Don't forget to click on 'Prove' before you turn in.tabasco
March 21, 2015
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bornagain77, Thanks for the reference to Gregory Chaitin--fascinating! -QQuerius
March 21, 2015
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you said you are not sure what I wrote means, but, for the sake of argument, I am granting that you might not be a computer and that you have the God given capacity to know what it means, Read slowly if it helps: "Read carefully what I wrote, the computers are a tool to do the tedious, mechanical, calculations for the mathematicians. The mathematicians are final arbiters of if the theorem is proved true are if the computer needs to be reprogrammed so as to be able to mechanically calculate better. The computer has no clue as to whether it calculated a theorem to a sufficient level of proof or whether it calculated the price of tea in china to a sufficient level of accuracy." The point is not that computers can't be used to mechanically calculate certain problems FOR MATHEMATICIANS to a sufficient level of proof. I never even hinted that they can't. The point I made clear was that computers have no conscious awareness of whether they calculated a mathematical proof or whether they calculated the price of tea in china. Only THE MATHEMATICIANS know what the computer is actually doing, and only they know if the computer has, and is, performing satisfactorily. If that is not clear enough for you, I can't help you. I know that you will probably disagree just to disagree, and so I will leave the last word to you. I rest my case. Goodnight. I'm off to bed.bornagain77
March 21, 2015
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bornagain77, I know what you were trying to say. I just think it's funny that you managed to contradict yourself in the space of two sentences. In your first sentence, you claimed that computers can't prove anything. In your second sentence, you said the computers were proving theorems for the mathematicians. You can't have it both ways. And even what you were trying to say is wrong. Suppose a mathematician hands a theorem to a grad student, saying "Prove this for me." The grad student returns the next day with a proof. Who proved the theorem, the mathematician or the grad student? Obviously it was the grad student. Now suppose that the mathematician enters a theorem into a theorem-proving program and clicks on 'Prove'. When the mathematician wakes up the next morning, there is a proof on the computer screen. Did the mathematician prove the theorem? Obviously not. The computer system did, and the mathematician was sleeping while it happened.tabasco
March 21, 2015
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How do scientists treat each other when it comes to surprising evidence? I found this documentary both fascinating and instructive--not only regarding the discrimination against women in archaeology in the 1930s, but the institutional mindset that precludes the acceptance of evidence contrary to prevailing theory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P09HtDdhcFo The overwhelming evidence here is never refuted, it's simply ignored, and the scientists involved are marginalized by the establishment. This is not Science. It is merely the construction of a plausible narrative with carefully selected facts to reinforce it. If the scientific establishment can easily suppress rock-solid evidence, how much more will they reject historical events with only eyewitness testimony? -QQuerius
March 21, 2015
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BA77,
from your very own link:
Yes, so? That doesn't mean that there are no proofs that can be carried out mechanically (by a computer, for example). Now before you post more links, I acknowledge that the axioms and rules of inference must be provided to the computer.daveS
March 21, 2015
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from your very own link: However, shortly after this positive result, Kurt Gödel published On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems (1931), showing that in any sufficiently strong axiomatic system there are true statements which cannot be proved in the system. This topic was further developed in the 1930s by Alonzo Church and Alan Turing, who on the one hand gave two independent but equivalent definitions of computability, and on the other gave concrete examples for undecidable questions. also of note: The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: Unlike Gödel’s approach, mine is based on measuring information and showing that some mathematical facts cannot be compressed into a theory because they are too complicated. This new approach suggests that what Gödel discovered was just the tip of the iceberg: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms. http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf The danger of artificial stupidity - Saturday, 28 February 2015 "Computers lack mathematical insight: in his book The Emperor’s New Mind, the Oxford mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose deployed Gödel’s first incompleteness theorem to argue that, in general, the way mathematicians provide their “unassailable demonstrations” of the truth of certain mathematical assertions is fundamentally non-algorithmic and non-computational" http://machineslikeus.com/news/danger-artificial-stupidity Kurt Gödel and Alan Turing - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video https://vimeo.com/92387854 "Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine" Kurt Gödel The mathematical world - James Franklin - 7 April 2014 Excerpt: the intellect (is) immaterial and immortal. If today’s naturalists do not wish to agree with that, there is a challenge for them. ‘Don’t tell me, show me’: build an artificial intelligence system that imitates genuine mathematical insight. There seem to be no promising plans on the drawing board.,,, James Franklin is professor of mathematics at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. http://aeon.co/magazine/world-views/what-is-left-for-mathematics-to-be-about/bornagain77
March 21, 2015
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BA77,
The mathematicians are final arbiters of if the theorem is proved true are if the computer needs to be reprogrammed so as to be able to mechanically calculate better. The computer has no clue as to whether it calculated a theorem to a sufficient level of proof or whether it calculated the price of tea in china to a sufficient level of accuracy.
I'm not even sure what that means. See Automated Theorem Proving.daveS
March 21, 2015
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tabasco stated that I said:
Bornagain contradicted himself. He said that computers don’t prove anything, then he said that they prove theorems for mathematicians. His second statement is the correct one.
Yet I never said computers prove theorems, I said "Computers don’t prove anything, Mathematicians use computers to do the tedious calculations for them (i.e. the mathematicians) so as to prove theorems for them (i.e. the mathematicians)!" Read carefully what I wrote, the computers are a tool to do the tedious, mechanical, calculations for the mathematicians. The mathematicians are final arbiters of if the theorem is proved true are if the computer needs to be reprogrammed so as to be able to mechanically calculate better. The computer has no clue as to whether it calculated a theorem to a sufficient level of proof or whether it calculated the price of tea in china to a sufficient level of accuracy. I would echo the 'think' refrain to you as FMM did, but then I would have to grant to the illusion of you that there is really a 'you' to think, with a free will to be rational, in the first place! Two premises that are denied in the naturalist's worldview! i.e. there is no 'you' to think in your worldview.
"Hawking’s entire argument is built upon theism. He is, as Cornelius Van Til put it, like the child who must climb up onto his father’s lap into order to slap his face. Take that part about the “human mind” for example. Under atheism there is no such thing as a mind. There is no such thing as understanding and no such thing as truth. All Hawking is left with is a box, called a skull, which contains a bunch of molecules. Hawking needs God In order to deny Him." - Cornelius Hunter - Photo – http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-kjiGN_9Fw/URkPboX5l2I/AAAAAAAAATw/yN18NZgMJ-4/s1600/rob4.jpg
bornagain77
March 21, 2015
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FMM,
I say, of course, The same way hammers don’t build anything. Carpenters build things with hammers.
There's a huge difference between "hammers build things for carpenters" and "carpenters build things with hammers". Bornagain contradicted himself. He said that computers don't prove anything, then he said that they prove theorems for mathematicians. His second statement is the correct one.
use your head man peace
Think, dude. lovetabasco
March 21, 2015
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Barry, Your refusal to answer my question is evidence that you can't do so persuasively. And of course you agree, right? It is evidence for that, according to your own logic. LOL. tabasco
March 21, 2015
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tabasco, so does the illusion of you, that is the product of your brain, think that the computer also has an illusion of self? and that it 'knew' that it proved a mathematical theorem? and When your computer gives you the weather does it also know that it is raining outside? :) Does your computer's illusion of self also know that you are having an illusion of self? Do you and your computer get together and share angst over the nihilistic implications of your materialistic worldview? Does your computer have any choice to feel otherwise? Are you hoping to upload yourself onto your computer someday so as to become semi-immortal? Can I mess with your programming if you do and make the illusion of you think you are a pastrami sandwich? :) of note: since a computer has no free will so as to be able to create axiomatic information, nor a consciousness so as to take a situation's overall context into consideration, then one simple way of defeating the Turing test is to simply tell, or to invent, a joke:,,, Such as this joke: Turing Test Extra Credit – Convince The Examiner That He’s The Computer – cartoon http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/turing_test.png “(a computer) lacks the ability to distinguish between language and meta-language.,,, As known, jokes are difficult to understand and even more difficult to invent, given their subtle semantic traps and their complex linguistic squirms. The judge can reliably tell the human (from the computer)”bornagain77
March 21, 2015
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Vincent, thank you. tabasco, you are an idiot, and I don't banter with idiots for the same reason I don't try to teach a pig to sing. It is utterly useless and it annoys the pig.Barry Arrington
March 21, 2015
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tabasco says I see. Computers don’t prove anything, but they prove theorems for mathematicians. I say, of course, The same way hammers don't build anything. Carpenters build things with hammers. computers like hammers are just tools. use your head man peacefifthmonarchyman
March 21, 2015
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tabasco:
That depends on how you define the self. Certainly the ‘folk dualist’ conception of the self as nonphysical and independent of the body is false.
Mapou:
I agree but that does not prevent the materialist conception of the self as the body/brain from being equally false.
The falsehood of folk dualism does not by itself demonstrate the truth of materialist ideas regarding the self, but there are many other compelling reasons to accept materialism (or more properly, physicalism).tabasco
March 21, 2015
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bornagain77:
Computers don’t prove anything, Mathematicians use computers to do the tedious calculations for them so as to prove theorems for them!
I see. Computers don't prove anything, but they prove theorems for mathematicians. Makes perfect sense.tabasco
March 21, 2015
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vjtorley,
It’s a pity that many atheists seem incapable of making the distinction you [Barry] referred to, between a lack of evidence and evidence which one does not find persuasive.
We're quite capable of making the distinction. However, we don't want to repeat Barry's mistake. If someone hands you a garden-variety (so to speak) tomato, saying "This tomato is evidence that Napoleon was gay", you would be quite justified in replying "That's not evidence!" ETA: Also, see my earlier comments regarding Kim Kardashian and the infinitude of primes.tabasco
March 21, 2015
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tabasco at 12 , as to:
"That depends on how you define the self. Certainly the ‘folk dualist’ conception of the self as nonphysical and independent of the body is false."
Pretending there is a 'you' instead of a zombie I'm talking to, thanks 'you' for your random, not free will, data output, Actually the materialist's view that you are your brain is what is 'certainly false':
“You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.” George MacDonald - Annals of a Quiet Neighborhood - 1892
as to:
Not all atheists deny the existence of free will. You need to get out more.
That is why I added 'materialist' in front of atheist. All materialistic atheist deny free will. 'You', again pretending there is a you reading this, need to read for clarity.
Why would you think that logic somehow depends on having free will? When a computer proves a mathematical theorem, do you think it is exercising free will?
Computers don't prove anything, Mathematicians use computers to do the tedious calculations for them so as to prove theorems for them!
Your Computer Doesn't Know Anything - Michael Egnor - January 23, 2015 Excerpt: Your computer doesn't know a binary string from a ham sandwich. Your math book doesn't know algebra. Your Rolodex doesn't know your cousin's address. Your watch doesn't know what time it is. Your car doesn't know where you're driving. Your television doesn't know who won the football game last night. Your cell phone doesn't know what you said to your girlfriend this morning. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/your_computer_d_1092981.html Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test – Douglas S. Robertson Excerpt: For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information. http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf Atheist's logic 101 - Intelligent programmers means no Intelligence was needed for computers being Intelligently programmed - cartoon http://legacy-cdn-assets.answersingenesis.org/assets/images/articles/ee/v2/life-by-chance.jpg
as to:
Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, People say the same of their UFO “abduction” experiences. Do you believe that those stories are true, bornagain77?
Never seen any serious evidence for UFOs. Never seen any serious studies done on the vividness of UFO abductee experiences. And I've never personally met anyone who claimed to be abducted by UFO's. Much less have I've ever heard of millions of UFO abductees coming back with profoundly changed lives. The few UFO abductees that I have seen on TV were not persuasive in the least and I have written off their testimonies as far fetched as Darwinian explanations for the eye are! :) Whereas, on the other hand, I have met a very sincere person who had an NDE. Plus the experiences are remarkably similar:
Life After Life - Raymond Moody - Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg
Moreover, their experiences while they were out of their material body, of a timeless dimension and of a tunnel, match exactly what we would expect them to see from a Special Relativity perspective:
Higher Dimensional Special Relativity, Near Death Experiences, Biophotons, and the Quantum Soul https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XGuV7FWwaDag4T5glstQWjsQNtWHKw3T9qLF14fUHHo/edit
Of supplemental note, the evidence that mind is not the product of the brain is confirmed by the fact that mind is able to effect the structure of the brain, i.e. brain plasticity:
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70
In fact, not only is the mind able to modify the brain, but the mind has now been shown to also be able to reach all the way down and effect the expression of genes:
Scientists Finally Show How Your Thoughts Can Cause Specific Molecular Changes To Your Genes, - December 10, 2013 Excerpt: “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper that shows rapid alterations in gene expression within subjects associated with mindfulness meditation practice,” says study author Richard J. Davidson, founder of the Center for Investigating Healthy Minds and the William James and Vilas Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Most interestingly, the changes were observed in genes that are the current targets of anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs,” says Perla Kaliman, first author of the article and a researcher at the Institute of Biomedical Research of Barcelona, Spain (IIBB-CSIC-IDIBAPS), where the molecular analyses were conducted.,,, the researchers say, there was no difference in the tested genes between the two groups of people at the start of the study. The observed effects were seen only in the meditators following mindfulness practice. In addition, several other DNA-modifying genes showed no differences between groups, suggesting that the mindfulness practice specifically affected certain regulatory pathways. http://www.tunedbody.com/scientists-finally-show-thoughts-can-cause-specific-molecular-changes-genes/
Then of course there is also quantum mechanics which completely undermines the materialistic worldview:
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
As to
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.” – Richard Feynman
Perhaps you should take his advice and and stop fooling yourself with 'naive materialism' as your worldview? Feynman also said this in regards to the double slit experiment with electrons,
“has in it the heart of quantum mechanics” and “is impossible, absolutely impossible, to explain in any classical way.”
Verse and Music:
Matthew 16:26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? Metallica & San Francisco Symphony Orchestra - Nothing Else Matters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziThYl6B2vw
bornagain77
March 21, 2015
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Hi Barry, A very fair summing up. It's a pity that many atheists seem incapable of making the distinction you referred to, between a lack of evidence and evidence which one does not find persuasive.vjtorley
March 21, 2015
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Neil Rickert: We all know that there’s no such thing as a final word. And that, my friends. is the final word on final words!Mung
March 21, 2015
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