Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
KF, exactly what misrepresentation am i repeating? That UDites misuse the word evidence as much as materialists do? This fact is very easy to confirm. Just read the comments. Is it my statement that there is a serious condescending tone in your comments? Again, the proof is before us all.not_querius
March 22, 2015
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NQ, there is a basic duty of care of fairness in criticism that you have admitted ignoring. You have then insisted on repeating a corrected misrepresentation. Your credibility just sank to zero. KFkairosfocus
March 22, 2015
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> tabasco, you are an idiot... Surely, as an attorney at law, you can find a better way to phrase this. Perhaps one that doesn't insult we true idiots.Mung
March 22, 2015
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Barry #62 and #63, You're still missing the obvious. You said this statement of mine was "exactly right":
Something counts as evidence for a proposition P to the extent that it supports the truth of P.
Now consider: If Dieter believes that Kim K's hair color supports the infinitude of the primes [henceforth IoP], then of course he will say that her hair color is evidence for the IoP. If Svetlana doesn't believe that Kim K's hair color supports the infinitude of the primes, then of course she will deny that it is evidence for the IoP. Dieter and Svetlana are both using the word 'evidence' correctly, given their respective beliefs about whether Kim K's hair color supports the truth of the IoP. The way forward isn't to scold either of them for their use of the word 'evidence'. Your OP therefore misses the mark. The way forward is to examine and discuss their reasons for believing what they do, and to determine which position, if either, makes more sense. Unless Dieter has a revolutionary, compelling hypothesis linking Kim K's hair color to the IoP, we will likely side with Svetlana: Kim K's hair color is not evidence for the IoP.tabasco
March 22, 2015
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Barry, I must confess that I stopped reading all of KF's comments a long time ago. Frankly, his condescension, correcting and telling peoe to do better is annoying. But I will accept that he didn't say that there was no. Regardless, are you claiming that the UDites do not misuse the word "evidence" just as frequently as the materialists? To jog your memory: "Unlike evolution in general, or even universal common descent, there is no evidence for Darwinism, and was propped up simply because it provided a good creation story for materialists."not_querius
March 22, 2015
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Barry
SB @ 71: I think your [b] above might better be: “Not all evidence is persuasive.”
Barry--Yes, you are right. In my haste, I transposed the terms. The whole point was to juxtapose Evolve's first claim: *All evidence is persuasive against his second claim: *Not all evidence is persuasive Thanks for catching the error.StephenB
March 22, 2015
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Ba77 #57 Not today hahaha :)Box
March 22, 2015
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SB @ 71: I think your [b] above might better be: "Not all evidence is persuasive." Your larger point is certainly correct. Evolve is deeply confused. It is sort of embarrassing really, because he doubtless believes his powerful intellect has led him to reject God. And ironic.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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Evolve
It goes without saying that in order to be persuasive, the evidence presented should be qualitatively and quantitatively adequate.
Don't you realize that you have completely contradicted yourself: [a] Your first claim prior to my corrective: All evidence is persuasive: [b] Your second claim after my corrective: All evidence is not persuasive.StephenB
March 22, 2015
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NQ, BA is right. For convenience, here is what I actually wrote just above:
Now, on your turnabout attempt. It depends on context: what are “Creationists,” what is “evolution” in the relevant sense, what is claimed as evidence. First, this is a design theory site, and the position generally defended is the design inference on empirically reliable signs such as FSCO/I. This is distinct from the characteristic appeal to religious traditions and seeking to interpret origins evidence in that light. Next, evolution is so broad a term these days that emergence of dog breeds qualifies, even when mutations as such are not significantly involved. That sort of selective breeding to true to type varieties is worlds apart from molecules to microbes then microbes to Mozart by claimed incremental chance variations and differential reproductive success of varieties accumulating into novel body plans and some sort of tree of life. There simply is no adequate actually observed evidence that the proposed mechanisms for blind watchmaker evo can generate and do generate novel, significant main body plans. That is not the same as the dismissiveness above.
I actually spoke to a principle known as vera causa, which was championed by Newton and acknowledged by Lyell and Darwin. Namely that a: when one addresses the unobservable due to distance in time and/or space etc, b: to try to compose a causal account, c: one should first demonstrate in the observed here and now, d: that proposed causal factors are seen -- observed -- to be adequate to account for the traces of that remote entity one seeks to explain. The various clusters of claimed factors that can be summed up as chance variation and culling out by differential reproductive success have never actually been observed to be causally adequate for origin of body plan level biodiversity, or even just simply to account for functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information (FSCO/I) beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. There IS just one, readily observed causal factor that readily accounts for such. Indeed, you manifested it in order to compose your posts of objection. Namely, intelligently directed configuration. AKA, design. Indeed, there is a trillion member observational basis for this, and it is backed up by blind needle in haystack analysis of config spaces. Such, show that the atomic-temporal resources of the sol system or the observed cosmos (at the 1,000 bit end) are grossly inadequate to carry our a search of the relevant configuration space appreciably different from no search. But of course, all of this will probably be dismissed (at least quietly) by too many as "no evidence." Yes, we know there is a commonly cited list of claimed icons and lines of evidence that warrant the conclusion that "natural selection" and/or fellow travellers adequately account for the world of life. Critical analysis of the usual icons raises troubling questions. And, too often, a closer look at the reasoning reveals this notorious framework of thought as was inadvertently highlighted by Lewontin in a 1997 NYRB book review:
. . . the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [Billions and billions of demons," NYRB Jan 1997. If you think this is "quote-mined" (warning, loaded accusation) then kindly cf the wider annotated cite here.]
Philip Johnson's reply, November that year, in First Things, is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
In short, a priori evolutionary materialist scientism fails the vera causa test, and imposes major ideological blinkers that warp ability to objectively assess adequacy of evidence and warrant. Science and science education are in deep but unacknowledged logical trouble in our day. KFkairosfocus
March 22, 2015
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not_querius
I could count the number of times that people here have said that there is no evidence for unguided evolution.
Or you can't count the number? In any case, I've never seen any evidence given for that no matter how many times we've had to say that there is none.Silver Asiatic
March 22, 2015
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NQ @ 67. You are so eager to dismiss KF, you glance at (rather than actually read) his posts, and that leads you to commit at least two errors. 1. KF did not say there is no evidence for blind watchmaker evolution. He said there is no "adequate actually observed" evidence." In other words, there is no direct evidence. All of the evidence is circumstantial, and everyone knows circumstantial evidence is not as persuasive as direct evidence. 2. Failure of charity. If you say, "I read him to say there is no evidence at all, and I refuted his statement with examples of circumstantial evidence." If you had read his comment charitably, you would have known readily enough he was not saying what you said he said.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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KF, you have just proven that you are guilt of what Barry is accusing atheists of. •There simply is no adequate actually observed evidence that the proposed mechanisms for blind watchmaker evo can generate and do generate novel, significant main body plans." The fossil record, comparative anatomy, molecular biology, radiometric dating, etc. are all evidence of this. The fact that you are incredulous about it doesn't mean that these are not evidence. Please do better.not_querius
March 22, 2015
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NQ: It seems confusion, manipulation of language and selective hyperskepticism are an ever growing problem. In this case BA has aptly summarised a commonly encountered problem of improper discounting of evidence because of the a priori ideological commitments of evolutionary materialists, joined to the problem they project on others as "personal incredulity." Now, if A is guilty of crime Z, that is so whether or no B is also guilty of Z. One suspect at a time please. Now, are you willing to acknowledge that there is a problem of incorrectly dismissing evidence one finds unpersuasive for whatever reason, as "no evidence"? If you deny such, then you reject a blatant fact. (Doubtless, you would be inclined to say "there is no evidence that . . ." save, that it would be an instantiation of adequate evidence that the problem is real.) We can safely take it there is a problem of selectively hyperskeptical, often ideologically motivated and closed minded, dismissiveness that likes to assert "there is no evidence" as a lock-out. It only shows that selectively hyperskeptical closed mindedness is at work. And on observation, it is a commonplace of evolutionary materialism advocates and adherents. We have seen it here at UD. Now, on your turnabout attempt. It depends on context: what are "Creationists," what is "evolution" in the relevant sense, what is claimed as evidence. First, this is a design theory site, and the position generally defended is the design inference on empirically reliable signs such as FSCO/I. This is distinct from the characteristic appeal to religious traditions and seeking to interpret origins evidence in that light. Next, evolution is so broad a term these days that emergence of dog breeds qualifies, even when mutations as such are not significantly involved. That sort of selective breeding to true to type varieties is worlds apart from molecules to microbes then microbes to Mozart by claimed incremental chance variations and differential reproductive success of varieties accumulating into novel body plans and some sort of tree of life. There simply is no adequate actually observed evidence that the proposed mechanisms for blind watchmaker evo can generate and do generate novel, significant main body plans. That is not the same as the dismissiveness above. But of course, it is possible for someone to get into the dismissive no evidence assertion bad habit. KFkairosfocus
March 22, 2015
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Dr JDD in 61 noted
Again, it comes back to the question. – what evidence would you accept for a deity? The answer I know for many is none as modern science excludes that as a possibility but more pertinent you simply do not want to even entertain that idea.
Nicely stated post. It seems that this principle appears much earlier than questions about God and the origin of the universe. People with scientific or medical experience often encounter fierce opposition of a political nature when making unsettling discoveries. Often, it would be better for their careers if they destroyed the evidence and simply went along with the consensus. I've read that perhaps 30% of the science that we think we know will be shown to be erroneous in the next 10-20 years (I doubt the precise number but agree with the principle). Thus, the people here who we see arguing for the sake of arguing in favor of the current narrative are fundamentally anti-science.
For example, something is missing from a house. The hypothesis is it was a burglary. You see a broken windows and that supports the hypothesis therefore it may be used as evidence for a burglary. However that does not prove it was a burglary.
To someone in denial of the existence of a burglar, I cannot imagine any evidence that would change their mind. Everything could be explained away using scientific terminology or ad hominem attacks, as is usually the case here. I think a more successful approach would be to ask "why" they believe as they do, which will not usually be because they personally collected the data and performed the experiments! A Truthful answer to the question would likely seem childish, embarrassing, or shameful. -QQuerius
March 22, 2015
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I don't really understand the point of this OP. if you are arguing that atheists don't know what evidence is, then you have to extent this lack of knowledge to creationists. I could count the number of times that people here have said that there is no evidence for unguided evolution.not_querius
March 22, 2015
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Tabasco, read Dr JDD's comment. Now apply your own definition of evidence. The universe had a beginning. One logical possibility to explain that fact is that God created the universe. Only that which exists has the capacity to create. Therefore the fact that the universe began to exist is evidence that God exists.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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Tabasco finally says something worth responding to. Your definition of evidence is exactly right. Indeed it is merely a restatement of the OP. I did not respond to comments about the relationship between some woman's hair and prime numbers because they were obviously not germane to the definition we agree to. You say I made a mistake. No you are mistaken when you attack a proposition I never asserted. You say I said any time someone denies something is evidence they are automatically just plain stupid. Read what I said again. This time try to read for comprehension. I said that it is just plain stupid to say evidence is not evidence merely because one does not find the evidence persuasive. I was rebutting the astonishingly stupid argument that Evolve continues to make in this thread. Ironically you and I appear to agree on the basic proposition.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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As a scientist I would use the word evidence with regards to a hypothesis: That is, specific questions. For example, something is missing from a house. The hypothesis is it was a burglary. You see a broken windows and that supports the hypothesis therefore it may be used as evidence for a burglary. However that does not prove it was a burglary. The atheists claim evidence must be on par with proof yet this is a fallacy as in science nothing is proven especially in biological sciences. For example, the hypothesis is that the uniberse was created by a deity. The observations suggest the universe had a beginning (big bang). This is consistent with the question or hypothesis at hand therefore can be considered as evidence. As said it does not have to be considered persuasive evidence but as it fits the hypothesis and is a prediction made by the hypothesis, it may be considered a form of evidence. Kim Kardashian's hair has nothing to do with a prediction of any hypothesis about prime numbers therefore cannot address any specific question relating to prime numbers so cannot be considered as evidence. I'm not even sure why someone needs to point that obvious issue out but most can see it is simply a straw man to divert from the point at hand. Again, it comes back to the question. - what evidence would you accept for a deity? The answer I know for many is none as modern science excludes that as a possibility but more pertinent you simply do not want to even entertain that idea. It's like people have completely forgot why the steady state model was accepted for so many years. It wasn't evidence, it was refusal to give theists an inch with their beliefs by accepting a beginning. Nothing is new under the sun.Dr JDD
March 22, 2015
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It's quite easy to fix Barry's mistake. Something counts as evidence for a proposition P to the extent that it supports the truth of P. If P is "there are infinitely many primes", then Kim Kardashian's current hair color is not evidence for P. Euclid's famous proof is evidence for P. Can people disagree over what counts as evidence? Of course! Does that mean that the person denying that something is evidence is automatically "just plain stupid", as Barry puts it? Of course not. They may in fact be correct, as the Kim K example shows. They might also be wrong -- for example, if they deny that Euclid's proof constitutes evidence for P. You have to evaluate each case on its merits. Barry's mistake was to issue a blanket dismissal of the "that's not evidence" side.tabasco
March 22, 2015
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Evolve says evidence is not evidence unless it persuades. Suppose ten men who listen to evidence. They are brought forward one by one. The first one is persuaded. The second not. The third is. The fourth not and so on. According to Evolve the very same thing is evidence. Then it is not. Then it is again and then it is not again. Absurd. Evolve, your argument has been crushed again and again. Yet you cling to it with a mulish obstinacy. That should give you pause. Sadly, I doubt that it will.Barry Arrington
March 22, 2015
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Why is this thread dragging on when Barry's error was already pointed out in comment #3? I asked:
Is the current color of Kim Kardashian’s hair evidence that there are infinitely many prime numbers?
There is only one sensible answer: no. Yet Barry says:
Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid.
So according to Barry, anyone who gives the sensible answer to my question -- anyone who says that Kim Kardashian's hair color is not evidence for the infinitude of the primes -- is "just plain stupid". Which is just plain stupid.tabasco
March 22, 2015
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Box in his youth :) no no no not in my house https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtXtOuxBuvQbornagain77
March 22, 2015
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Evolve: I now have evidence that creationists can be unwilling to be persuaded.
I must admit that I was struggling. You had me seriously doubting my original position. You presented very strong "evidence". There was even a moment that I thought that you were completely right. But then I decided, for some reason, not to be persuaded. It's hard to say why. Your story didn't feel right somehow. Consequently, you have no evidence whatsoever. Zilch. You have absolutely no case. Nada.Box
March 22, 2015
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Stephen, It goes without saying that in order to be persuasive, the evidence presented should be qualitatively and quantitatively adequate.Evolve
March 22, 2015
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///No they are not. So you have no evidence whatsoever./// I now have evidence that creationists can be unwilling to be persuaded.Evolve
March 22, 2015
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Evolve @41
They’re missing the point that it won’t count as evidence if it is not persuasive in the first place.
No. Only high quality evidence of sufficient quantity is persuasive. Low quality or insufficient evidence is not persuasive. Your argument is that all evidence is of sufficient quality and quantity to be persuasive. Obviously, you are wrong. If all evidence was persuasive, then the terms "preponderance of the evidence" or "enough evidence" or "good evidence" would have no meaning.StephenB
March 22, 2015
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///Evolve, when you are reduced to saying words have no meaning you have not only undermined your own argument/// I never said words have no meaning. What I said was that in some cases, there’s no consensus on what exactly a given word means. Different dictionaries can give different meanings for the same word and I showed it to you for the word “evidence”. In such cases, it is pointless to go by one definition. It will be more useful to go by the contextual sense the word makes, instead. ///I know you have a very strong emotional stake in your atheism./// You’re wrong there too. I don’t have any emotional stake, I just followed the evidence where it led me. New evidence discovered tomorrow could very well change my position. I'm open to everything.Evolve
March 22, 2015
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Evolve: They are persuasive (...)
No they are not. So you have no evidence whatsoever.Box
March 22, 2015
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Box, /// Your quotations from the dictionaries are no evidence at all for your position, because they don’t persuade me. So you have got nothing to back up your position. /// They are persuasive, even if you claim they don't persuade you, because they show why you should accept the point. Now, any individual can make any claim depending on his personal bias, which is what you just did.Evolve
March 22, 2015
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