Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Logical Misunderstanding About Design Arguments

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Many materialists are confused about the obsession of ID’ers with Darwinian evolution. They believe that our targeting of Darwin is misguided for the simple reason that showing that Darwin is wrong doesn’t make us correct. On the simple face of it that is correct—showing that X is false doesn’t make Y true.

However, the story of Darwin and design is deeper than that, and to understand why ID’ers target Darwin you have to understand more of the story. For the next two paragraphs, if you are a Darwinist, set that to the side for a moment to at least understand where the ID’er is coming from.

To an ID’er, the biological world screams design. That is, nearly every thing in our bodies and in the world serves some purpose. If there is an organ, you can bet it is there to serve a purpose. Organisms themselves serve purposes in the larger environment. Everything in biology is endowed with purposive intent. In fact, even the problems make the purpose stand out more clearly. We can tell that cancer is bad because it does not line up with the purposes of our body. We can see and understand everything in terms of purpose.

Additionally, these purposes are carried out utilizing stunning machinery at every level. You can see it in the gross anatomy. Organisms are built with logically distinct systems serving the organisms purpose. You can see it all the way down to the molecular biology. Each cell comes equipped with tiny organelles which work together to keep the cell running, and each of these are very precise machines.

This is the starting point—the starting evidence. It is true that it is not quantitative. However, most observations that you can make about an organism screams for purpose and design. While there are many intricate, purposive systems built by intelligent agents, we have never seen it occur in the absence of agency. Therefore, being surrounded by intricate, purposive systems, we infer that there is some sort of agent behind it. So why don’t people believe in design in biology?

It used to be that design was the default assumption in biology, for these very reasons. The innovation that Darwin had was that there was another way to account for all of this purpose and design in biology. Darwin proposed natural selection as a way to get purpose and design entirely through purposeless, material causes.

So, abstractly, the old argument was like this:

Y can only be caused by X; we see Y, therefore X.

The Darwinian logic was:

Oh, wait a minute there, Y can also be caused by Q; therefore, when we see Y, it *might* by X, but it could also be Q.

Further along intellectual history, X was ruled out as a possible cause. This made the logic become:

Y can be caused by either Q or X. However, we are not allowed to consider X. Therefore, we see Y, and can only conclude Q.

So, hopefully you can now see why ID focuses on the defeat of Q. The entirety of the living world already gives evidence of X. We could add more (as Behe has often done), but it is largely unnecessary, simply because of the overwhelming evidence of X. If Q is shown to be wrong, then the methodological assertion against X is shown to be ridiculous, and people can return to concluding X from the massive amount of evidence that is simply everywhere we look.
This is why Dawkins said, “Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.” He provided a defeater for the obvious conclusion. If the defeater is out of the way, then making the obvious conclusion is, well, obvious.

Additional note – some may wonder about the many purported “other mechanisms” of evolution. I have found that pretty much all suggested mechanisms fall into two categories. (1) a Darwinian mechanism, but which is more specific. That is, some may talk about all sorts of potential mutations, and categorize them. For example, Allen McNeil has such a list. As far as I’m aware, McNeil suggests no teleological or teleonomic directionality in any of these mechanisms, which is precisely what is meant by “random mutation” – mutations lacking in directionality. Therefore, this post (and any post on random mutation and natural selection) applies equivalently to these mechanisms. (2) Non-Darwinian mechanisms. These are mechanisms where either (a) the organism has sufficient knowledge/agency to construct its own destination (i.e., Natural Genetic Engineering or the Implicit Genome), or (b) evolution presupposes a huge amount of existing information in the genome ahead-of-time (evo-devo). These can be wrapped up in the broader term evolutionary teleonomy. These mechanisms, like all the other biological mechanisms, are expressions of purpose. While they may or may not undermine specific views of natural *history*, they do nothing at all to undermine the general view of purpose and design in nature. They merely move the design back, which, mathematically, makes the amount of design required bigger, not smaller.

Comments
If Darwinism is consistent with ID, how does disproving Darwinism improve the case for ID? For example, say we prove completely arbitrary mutations cannot work, but if the mutations were targeted then Darwinian evolution would work. In both cases, the amount of information that has to be accounted for is the same, but we have a better mechanical source of that information, and a modified form of Darwinism is workable. There is the claim that Darwinism has to be non-teleological, but natural selection itself is a source of teleology. So, the claim that Darwinism is non-teleological seems to mean there is no nonmechanical cause driving evolution, i.e. special creation or direct intervention of God or other beings in the evolutionary process, not that there is no direction whatsoever. This account of Darwinism is consistent with highly programmed and directed mechanical evolution. So, merely disproving random mutation is not adequate to disprove the mechanical evolution view. But, the mechanical evolution, with random or directed mutation, is also consistent with ID. So, the debate about Darwinism seems largely orthogonal to ID. If random mutation is disproven, that does not disprove mechanical evolution. If ID is proven, that does not disprove mechanical evolution. If mechanical evolution is completely disproven, then this, I think, could prove something closer to ID, insofar as something other than stochastic processes must exist, or that we are reliant on unseen probabilistic resources or information sources. But, it's hard to see how to completely disprove mechanical evolution, and ID does not seem to contribute to the disproof. Plus, if eliminating mechanical evolution is the big deal, which seems to be the focus of the Discovery Institute, then why not focus completely on that concept, and why bring ID into the picture? Admittedly, ID provides the sense there is a positive science to replace mechanical evolution, and from a rhetorical perspective it is hard to eliminate something without a better replacement, but there does not seem to be such a positive science in reality.EricMH
September 4, 2019
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At post 30 Seversky, in response to the overwhelming impression of Design that biology presents us with, and instead of presenting ANY scientific evidence that unguided Darwinian processes can produce such Design, Seversky instead responds with the age old argument from evil,
"I see also the Ebola, influenza and poliomyelitis viruses, to name just three, and the huge death toll they have caused in humans. I see the many cancers to which our bodies are prone or the slow degenerative disorders of ageing.,, etc. etc."
As has been pointed out to Seversky on numerous occasions, the fatal flaw in the atheist's argument from evil is that it is a Theological argument. It is not a scientific argument. Specifically, the fatal flaw in the atheist's argument from evil is that, even though atheists deny that objective morality exists, their argument from evil presupposes an objective standard of moral goodness. That is to say, for evil to even exist, there must be an objective standard of moral goodness that has been departed from. Yet, atheists deny the objective existence of moral good and moral evil. As Dawkins stated, "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” ? Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life
Thus the 'argument from evil' is a self-refuting argument for the atheist to make since he is forced to presuppose the objective reality of a moral good that has been departed from. As David Wood puts it in the following article, By declaring that suffering is evil, atheists have admitted that there is an objective moral standard by which we distinguish good and evil.
Responding to the Argument From Evil: Three Approaches for the Theist - By David Wood Excerpt: Interestingly enough, proponents of AE grant this premise in the course of their argument. By declaring that suffering is evil, atheists have admitted that there is an objective moral standard by which we distinguish good and evil. Amazingly, then, even as atheists make their case against the existence of God, they actually help us prove that God exists!,,, https://www.namb.net/apologetics/responding-to-the-argument-from-evil-three-approaches-for-the-theist
Thus, in their “Argument from Evil” atheists have conceded the existence of a objective moral standard to judge by and have, once again, self-refuted their Atheistic Materialistic worldview in the process. Simply put, if good and evil really do exist, as the atheist holds in his argument from evil, then God necessarily exists!
If Good and Evil Exist, God Exists: – Peter Kreeft – Prager University – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliyujhwhNM
And as Michael Egnor states in the following article, Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,,
The Universe Reflects a Mind - Michael Egnor - February 28, 2018 Excerpt: Goff argues that a Mind is manifest in the natural world, but he discounts the existence of God because of the problem of evil. Goff seriously misunderstands the problem of evil. Evil is an insoluble problem for atheists, because if there is no God, there is no objective standard by which evil and good can exist or can even be defined. If God does not exist, “good” and “evil” are merely human opinions. Yet we all know, as Kant observed, that some things are evil in themselves, and not merely as a matter of opinion. Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2018/02/the-universe-reflects-a-mind/
C.S Lewis, a former atheist who converted to Christianity, clearly puts the fatal flaw inherent in the argument from evil like this: “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?,,, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.”
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?,,, ,,, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." - C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. Harper San Francisco, Zondervan Publishing House, 2001, pp. 38-39.
Moreover the specific philosophical claim from atheists that “There exist a large number of horrible forms of evil and suffering for which we can see no greater purpose or compensating good.”
The Problem of Evil: Still A Strong Argument for Atheism - 2015 Excerpt:,,, the problem of evil, one of the main arguments against the existence of an all-good and all-knowing God.,,, P1. There exist a large number of horrible forms of evil and suffering for which we can see no greater purpose or compensating good. P2. If an all-powerful, all-good God existed, then such horrific, apparently purposeless evils would not exist. C. Therefore, an all-powerful, all-good God does not exist. https://thegodlesstheist.com/2015/10/13/the-problem-of-evil-still-a-strong-argument-for-atheism/
,,, that specific philosophical claim from Atheists is directly refuted in Christian Theology by the fact that Christ used evil to bring about a much greater good. Specifically, Christ used evil against itself for the specific purpose of bringing about the much greater good of His victory over death.
“He did not conquer in spite of the dark mystery of evil. He conquered through it.” ~James Stewart~ “It is a glorious phrase of the New Testament, that ‘he led captivity captive.’ The very triumphs of His foes, it means, he used for their defeat. He compelled their dark achievements to sub-serve his end, not theirs. They nailed him to the tree, not knowing that by that very act they were bringing the world to his feet. They gave him a cross, not guessing that he would make it a throne. They flung him outside the gates to die, not knowing that in that very moment they were lifting up all the gates of the universe, to let the King of Glory come in. They thought to root out his doctrines, not understanding that they were implanting imperishably in the hearts of men the very name they intended to destroy. They thought they had defeated God with His back (to) the wall, pinned and helpless and defeated: they did not know that it was God Himself who had tracked them down. He did not conquer in spite of the dark mystery of evil. He conquered through it.” James Stewart (1896–1990) was a minister of the Church of Scotland Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Luke 24:25-26 Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?”
Thus, the atheist, in his argument from evil, besides being oblivious to the fact that his argument is self-refuting in that he presupposes the existence of the very thing that he denies the existence of, i.e. objective morality, the atheist also basically ignores all of Christian theology in order to try to claim that he can see no greater purpose for God allowing evil and suffering to exist in this world:
The Problem of Evil by Benjamin D. Wiker - April 2009 Excerpt: We still want to cry, Job-like, to those inscrutable depths, "Who are you to orchestrate everything around us puny and pitiable creatures, leaving us shuddering in the darkness, ignorant, blasted, and buffeted? It‘s all well and good to say, ‘Trust me! It‘ll all be made right in the end,‘ while you float unscathed above it all. Grinding poverty, hunger, thirst, frustration, rejection, toil, death of our loved ones, blood-sweating anxiety, excruciating pain, humiliation, torture, and finally a twisted and miserable annihilation — that‘s the meal we‘re served! You‘d sing a different tune if you were one of us and got a taste of your own medicine." What could we say against these depths if the answer we received was not an argument but an incarnation, a full and free submission by God to the very evils about which we complain? This submission would be a kind of token, a sign that evil is very real indeed, bringing the incarnate God blood-sweating anxiety, excruciating pain, humiliation, torture, and finally a twisted and miserable annihilation on the cross. As real as such evil is, however, the resurrection reveals that it is somehow mysteriously comprehended within the divine plan. With the Incarnation, the reality of evil is absorbed into the deity, not dissolved into thin air, because God freely tastes the bitterness of the medicine as wounded healer, not distant doctor. Further, given the drastic nature of this solution, we begin to recognize that God takes the problem of evil more seriously than we could ever have taken it ourselves. ,,, http://www.crisismagazine.com/2009/the-problem-of-evil
Of supplemental note, the problem of pain/evil, and how we react to tragedy in our lives, was almost central to Dr. Neal's following talk on her near death experience (NDE). At around the 15:00 - 17:00 minute mark of the following video, Dr. Neal spoke about how she, when in the presence of God, and from being able to see things from that much higher “omniscient' perspective, finally understood why God allows evil in the world (i.e. she finally ‘got it’) and understood how our limited perspective on 'evil' severely clouds our judgments and our reactions to those tragedies in our lives. (The take home message is to trust in God no matter what happens)
Dr. Mary Neal's Near-Death Experience - (Life review portion of her NDE starts at the 13:00 minute mark) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63wY2fylJD0
Also of supplemental note, what is termed the “Beatific (BE A TIF IC) Vision” of heaven also refutes the atheist's argument from evil,,,
This Theologian Has An Answer To Atheists’ Claims That Evil Disproves God - Jan, 2018 Excerpt: In “The Last Superstition: A Refutation Of The New Atheism,” Feser, echoing Thomas Aquinas, notes that the first premise of the problem of evil is “simply false, or at least unjustifiable.” According to Feser, there is no reason to believe that the Christian God, being all-good and all-powerful, would prevent suffering on this earth if out of suffering he could bring about a good that is far greater than any that would have existed otherwise. If God is infinite in power, knowledge, goodness, etc., then of course he could bring about such a good. Feser demonstrates his reasoning with an analogy. A parent may allow his child a small amount of suffering in frustration, sacrifice of time, and minor pain when learning to play the violin, in order to bring about the good of establishing proficiency. This is not to say that such minimal suffering is in any way comparable to the horrors that have gone on in this world. But the joy of establishing proficiency with a violin is not in any way comparable to the good that God promises to bring to the world. In Christian theology, this good is referred to as the Beatific Vision: the ultimate, direct self-communication of God to the individual. In other words, perfect salvation or Heaven. Feser describes the Beatific Vision as a joy so great that even the most terrible horror imaginable “pales in insignificance before the beatific vision.” As Saint Paul once said, “the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” Your Argument Assumes Its Conclusion I can already see the disciples of the Four Horsemen readying their keyboards, opening a copy of Dawkins’ “The God Delusion,” and preparing their response. An atheist may claim that he cannot possibly imagine anything in the next life that could possibly outweigh the Holocaust, children’s suffering, or any other instance of significant suffering in this world. According to Feser, this response is precisely the reason he states that the problem of evil is “worthless” as an objection to arguments in favor of the existence of the Christian God. The problem is that the only way the atheist can claim that nothing could outweigh the most significant suffering on earth is if he supposes that God does not exist and therefore there is no Beatific Vision. But he cannot presume that God does not exist in the premise of an argument that aims to prove the conclusion that God does not exist. By doing so, he is begging the question, or arguing in a circle, and therefore does not prove anything at all. As Feser goes on to demonstrate, the atheist is essentially stating: “There is no God, because look at all this suffering that no good could possibly outweigh. How do I know there’s no good that could outweigh it? Oh, because there is no God.” http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/03/theologian-answer-new-atheists-claims-existence-evil-disproves-gods/
Verse:
Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Bottom line, Seversky's argument from evil, which is a Theological that he made since he has zero scientific that Darwinian processes can produce the Design we see in life, is a self-refuting argument. A self-refuting argument that, in fact, presupposes the existence of a objective standard of moral goodness, i.e. presupposes God, and is an argument that also ignores basically all of Christian Theology. The funny thing is that the self-refuting argument from evil is, since they have no scientific evidence against God, basically the best argument that atheists have to offer against God.
ELITE SCIENTISTS DON’T HAVE ELITE REASONS FOR BEING ATHEISTS - Nov 9, 2016 Excerpt: What I found was 50 elite scientists expressing their personal opinions, but none had some powerful argument or evidence to justify their opinions. In fact, most did not even cite a reason for thinking atheism was true.,,, Yes, most elite scientists and scholars are atheists. But their reasons for being atheists and agnostics are varied and often personal. And their typical arguments are rather common and shallow – god of the gaps and the existence of evil. It would seem clear that their expertise (in science) and elite status is simply not a causal factor behind their atheism. https://www.thepoachedegg.net/2016/11/elite-scientists-dont-have-elite-reasons-for-being-atheists.html
bornagain77
September 2, 2019
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Bob -
I’m really struggling to see how this isn’t self-refuting. How something is designed is not consistent with the idea that it was designed? In other words, if it was designed, it’s impossible for it to have been designed in some way.
First of all, let me be clear about something. When I speak of the "how" of "design" I am NOT speaking of a fabrication process. I just wanted to make that clear in case it wasn't. You are confusing two separate issues - the material processes and the mental processes. I can see how it can be confusing, because these often interplay off of each other. However, there is a difference in design in itself as opposed to a design process. That is, there is a separation of the insights in design from the material process that commences before and after the insights occur. If the most fundamental design part had a how (at least in the sense of being describable by physics), then, while not a logical contradiction with ID, it would certainly preclude a lot of ID research. For a sense of the mathematics of what this looks like, see here.
As for your argument that we can’t reconstruct the past, this is also untrue: that’s what history, archeology, detective work, etc etc is about. I agree we can’t reconstruct everything (e.g. the posture of the programmer), but there are other things we can work out. If you knew anything about computing, you’d be aware that we can often work out what kind of computer it was written on, e.g. from the line endings or other quirks of the OS or programme used to write the programme.
Except that I didn't say we couldn't reconstruct any part of the past. I said two different things: (1) The *design process* is largely (but not entirely) unrecoverable from the artifact. Pick an object in your house. Using only that object, tell me what CAD software the user used to make that object. (2) For designed things, a different set of questions become dramatically more important. Note that (1) is *not* about natural history. I do think that, on the whole, natural history is recoverable. But that isn't the same as design. You might be able to infer *when* X came into existence the first time. However, just like you can't deduce the CAD software just by looking at the object, there isn't much about the design process you will understand from looking at the fossil of the first X. Additionally, if you spend too much time worrying about it, that is time you aren't spending thinking about (2), which, for designed things, is much more important.johnnyb
September 2, 2019
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Bob O'H:
How something is designed is not consistent with the idea that it was designed?
Learn how to read. ID is about the DESIGN and not how it came to be. That is because we do NOT have to know the "how" BEFORE determining design exists.
As for your argument that we can’t reconstruct the past, this is also untrue: that’s what history, archeology, detective work, etc etc is about.
And yet there are many artifacts whose history eludes us. There are many unsolved crimes. And history relies on a direct observer documenting things.ET
September 2, 2019
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Microevolution? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6466734/ Where’s the literature on the macro?PeterA
September 2, 2019
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johnnyb @ 27 -
So, to be clear, the “how” of ID *itself* is not logically consistent with the idea of ID (at least in terms of physics).
I'm really struggling to see how this isn't self-refuting. How something is designed is not consistent with the idea that it was designed? In other words, if it was designed, it's impossible for it to have been designed in some way. As for your argument that we can't reconstruct the past, this is also untrue: that's what history, archeology, detective work, etc etc is about. I agree we can't reconstruct everything (e.g. the posture of the programmer), but there are other things we can work out. If you knew anything about computing, you'd be aware that we can often work out what kind of computer it was written on, e.g. from the line endings or other quirks of the OS or programme used to write the programme.Bob O'H
September 2, 2019
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Neil @ 33, >It seems to me that if evolution improves fitness, it is reasonable to attribute that as a goal of the process. Minor philosophical nitpick: an observed feature of a process may have nothing to do with the actual goal of the process. Someone watching their first chess game from a distance might conclude that the goal was to eliminate the other player's pieces.EDTA
September 1, 2019
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It seems pretty straightforward to me: either an intelligent agent was involved in the evolution of life on Earth, or there was no intelligent agent. Thus, only two possibilities, so dismantling one of them improves the prospects for the other. Darwinism (or any other naturalistic, non-ID process/theory/mechanism) stands in for the non-ID possibility, so that any evidence against Darwinism is de-facto evidence in favour of ID. ID research is two pronged: finding evidence of design in nature, and showing that Darwinism cannot do what it is assumed to do. Both of these approaches result in ID becoming more probable than the non-ID theory (Darwinism). I know that BA77 and others have massive lists of positive evidence for ID, and they have other long lists of evidence against the general capability of Darwinism to generate new life forms. Thus, I will not attempt to tally the evidence here. I also note that it has been mainly(?) ID researchers who have scientifically explored what Darwinian mechanisms realistically can and cannot do (e.g. The Edge of Evolution).Fasteddious
September 1, 2019
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Goal directed behavior is a telic process. Natural selection is non-telic. It is a process of elimination. And it is nothing more than contingent serendipity. Whatever is good enough. Good enough. Not just the best. Not just the fastest. Not just the most physically fit. Not just the best eyesight. Not just the best hearing. Whatever is good enough. But there's more. Whatever is good enough can change. The best in one generation may not be so in the next and without a single genetic change! Just because of climate change ;) Intelligent Design is OK with organisms being intelligently designed with the ability to adapt and evolve. They were given the information and ability to use said information to fill environmental niches:
He [the Designer] indeed seems to have “carefully crafted” information in His species giving them the ability to respond to environmental stimuli to alter their own genome to adapt to new environments. He then evidently let them wander where they will with the ability to adapt.- Dr. Lee Spetner “the Evolution Revolution” p 108
Teamed with sexual selection, natural selection is very conservative. It keeps the norm. Phenotypic plasticity exists, and it is testimony to the aforementioned built-in information. The differing beaks of the finch is a real phenomena. But it isn't as if they will ever evolve a bill like a toucan. It is all limited. And it all wobbles around a central theme- the basic finch type. It won't ever produce anything more than a limited variety of finch. The point is even the goal of improving fitness is impotent with respect to universal common descent.ET
September 1, 2019
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Darwinists do think that evolution improves fitness, but that is not a goal of the process.
How should we attribute goals. It seems to me that if evolution improves fitness, it is reasonable to attribute that as a goal of the process.
A good review is here, ...
That review is only discussing mutations. I ascribe a goal to the overall process, but not to the mutations. Trial and error works toward a goal by trying things out, and selecting those which work. If there is no prior knowledge of which mutations will help toward the goal, then goal-directed behavior is best served by using random mutations in that trial and error process.Neil Rickert
September 1, 2019
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seversky:
We see function, you assume purpose but the former does not necessarily imply the latter. You marvel at the wondrous complexity of form and function that we see in biological organs and organism.
And we see that your side doesn't have anything to explain what we observe.
What does all that say about the mind, the purposes or the very existence of a Designer?
It says that the design wasn't perfect. It says that perhaps our existence is to learn and gain knowledge. And that can only be done in an imperfect world.ET
September 1, 2019
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Bob O'H@3
You have to show that ID can better explain the real world. To do that, you need an actual theory of how ID happens.
Seversky@30
I see throughout human history enormous suffering and loss of life from all causes and the fossil record provides evidence of whole species that have been extinguished. What does all that say about the mind, the purposes or the very existence of a Designer?
Smoke and mirrors. After ruling out other alternatives, positing a particular origin is one thing, the primary issue. A favorite tactic of Darwinists (not wanting to deal with it) is to bring up entire other issues as obfuscations to cloud the primary issue and take the eyes off the ball. We can know that something exists, without knowing how it works inside or why it works that way. A perfect example is consciousness. Similarly, we can show that and know that something exists, without knowing what created it and why its outworkings or unfoldings work the way they do.doubter
September 1, 2019
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To an ID’er, the biological world screams design. That is, nearly every thing in our bodies and in the world serves some purpose.
We see function, you assume purpose but the former does not necessarily imply the latter. You marvel at the wondrous complexity of form and function that we see in biological organs and organism. I see also the Ebola, influenza and poliomyelitis viruses, to name just three, and the huge death toll they have caused in humans. I see the many cancers to which our bodies are prone or the slow degenerative disorders of ageing. I see neurological diseases which can prevent the brain from storing new memories or which can slowly dismantle a personality piece by piece until there is almost nothing recognizable of the original left. I see a reproductive system with a miscarriage rate of 30-50%. I see throughout human history enormous suffering and loss of life from all causes and the fossil record provides evidence of whole species that have been extinguished. What does all that say about the mind, the purposes or the very existence of a Designer?Seversky
September 1, 2019
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Neil -
The purpose which drives evolution seems quite apparent — the purpose is to enhance fitness. I’m not sure how you could have missed that. It’s not as if evolutionists fail to mention fitness.
Actually, most people defending the Modern Synthesis are adamant that the evolutionary processes are not purposeful. Darwinists do think that evolution improves fitness, but that is not a goal of the process. A good review is here, or you can look at my review here.johnnyb
September 1, 2019
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BB -
But when the one that you think is implausible is supported by mountains of evidence, is testable, has a mechanism that has also been tested, is supported by independent fields of study including fossils, geology, molecular biology, comparative anatomy, genomics
You are confusing many things here, and it is largely because the Darwin-party has spent time obfuscating rather than explaining. Fossils and geology cannot support Darwinism for a simple fact - the source of variation in dead things is unknown. Likewise, comparative anatomy. Genomics and molecular biology *could*, but they don't. In fact, they show that Darwinism has failed. My guess is that you are conflating Darwinism and evolution. This is understandable because of the amount of obfuscation the Darwinists have done. However, if you think that, you didn't actually read the whole post! There is no fundamental conflict between ID and evolution in the broad sense. This has been stated from the beginning, starting with Darwin on Trial. It has been stated by Johnson, Dembski, Behe, and a whole host of others. So, if you are pointing to fossils and geology, then you are confused as to what ID is actually claiming. My suggest is to not get your information about ID from the Darwinists.johnnyb
September 1, 2019
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Bob - So, to be clear, the "how" of ID *itself* is not logically consistent with the idea of ID (at least in terms of physics). However, it is logically consistent to talk about the how of the implementation. That's true. However, that does not mean that the how actually survives. But, again, I already mentioned this. Think about computers and keyboards. Once a program is written, it is ridiculous to go back and try to reconstruct what kind of computer it was written on, what posture the programmer had when he wrote it, etc. Perhaps it was dictated. Perhaps he had someone else type it out for him. It isn't that these aren't possible questions to ask. It is simply that (a) they don't really matter, and (b) once performed, they are essentially impossible to reconstruct. What you are suggesting is that ID'ers have a duty to go down a road that is impossible (or nearly so) to succeed at and will yield useless information if the herculean task is accomplished, in order for you to take them seriously. I would not take someone seriously who, when faced with the interesting and fruitful tasks of looking at semantics and interfaces, chose instead to spend all of their time with useless trivialities.johnnyb
September 1, 2019
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BB@19
But when the one that you think is implausible is supported by mountains of evidence, is testable, has a mechanism that has also been tested, is supported by independent fields of study including fossils, geology, molecular biology, comparative anatomy, genomics, etc. , and the other is supported by a comparison to the only known and confirmed designer in the universe (humans), i’ll put my money on the former.
Most charitably this is pitiable self-delusion to desperately maintain a bankrupt world-view, rather than deliberate lies. Neodarwinism is bankrupt and is admitted to be so by leading evolutionary biologists as not being capable of the actual origin of complex biological mechanisms - of biological form in all its intricate and ingenious organization. For instance, leading Darwinist theorist Gerd Muller, in an article following up on the 2016 Royal Society conference on the vast current problems of Darwinism, at https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rsfs.2017.0015 :
...a wealth of evolutionary phenomena remains excluded. For instance, the theory largely avoids the question of how the complex organizations of organismal structure, physiology, development or behavior — whose variation it describes — actually arise in evolution.
But wait a minute - this is the most important part of evolution: how major innovations came about. Like almost all animal body plans in the Cambrian Explosion. This is devastating for anyone who wants to think that, on the great questions of biological origins, orthodox evolutionary theory has got it all figured out. Neodarwinism carefully avoids the big question of where the major innovations of evolution came from, in other words, macroevolution. Sure, it can explain microevolutionary variation in finch beak shapes and whatnot. The only response will probably be the usual empty future promissory note, notes that haven't been fulfilled in 150 years of research.doubter
September 1, 2019
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JB, I hear you. Both-and. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2019
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Science requires that the claims being made be testable. Intelligent Design has a methodology to test its claims. That methodology is based on our knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. So the question remains: What is the methodology used to test the claims of evolution by means of natural selection, drift or any other blind and mindless process? How can we test the claim that nature invented eyes/ vision systems (Nathan Lents in his ever popular "Human Errors")? The people who love science would love to know...ET
September 1, 2019
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Neil Rickert:
I’m not seeing design, in the ordinary sense of that word.
No one cares what you do and do not see, Neil. You have proven to be on an anti-science agenda.
But who’s purpose?
Our purpose, duh.
I look at evolution, entirely in terms of purpose. If there were no purpose involved, then there would be no evolution (in my opinion).
Again, no one cares as you aren't a biologist and your knowledge of biology and evolution are very, very limited.
The purpose which drives evolution seems quite apparent — the purpose is to enhance fitness.
Clueless. Even a loss of function can do that, Neil. No eyes could enhance fitness. No legs can enhance fitness. It is all contingent serendipity. Evos mention fitness as if it is a magical quality. It isn't, Neil BTW Intelligent Design is NOT anti-evolution so perhaps you can quit with your equivocations.ET
September 1, 2019
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It's probably a mistake for me to comment. But I'll add my two cents anyway.
To an ID’er, the biological world screams design.
I'm not seeing design, in the ordinary sense of that word.
That is, nearly every thing in our bodies and in the world serves some purpose.
Yes. But who's purpose?
We can see and understand everything in terms of purpose.
I look at evolution, entirely in terms of purpose. If there were no purpose involved, then there would be no evolution (in my opinion). The purpose which drives evolution seems quite apparent -- the purpose is to enhance fitness. I'm not sure how you could have missed that. It's not as if evolutionists fail to mention fitness.Neil Rickert
September 1, 2019
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Is lying a mechanism that can produce the diversity of life? No. Is evo imagination a mechanism that can produce the diversity of life? No. Do evos really think their lies and imaginations are actual science? Yes. Sad, really.ET
September 1, 2019
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Brother Brian is lying. There isn't any science nor evidence that supports blind watchmaker evolution. There isn't a way to test its claims. Blind watchmaker evolution can't even account for the organisms that were fossilized. Brother Brian is so pathetic that it is forced to lie and the sad part is it believes its own nonsense.ET
September 1, 2019
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A
Where there are multiple competing hypotheses if one can be shown to be implausible then the other becomes the preferred explanation.
But when the one that you think is implausible is supported by mountains of evidence, is testable, has a mechanism that has also been tested, is supported by independent fields of study including fossils, geology, molecular biology, comparative anatomy, genomics, etc. , and the other is supported by a comparison to the only known and confirmed designer in the universe (humans), i’ll put my money on the former.Brother Brian
September 1, 2019
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Earth to Bob O'H- How any given design was implemented is beyond the scope of ID. And it remains that your side is all about the how and has nothing. So please stop whining about ID and get to work on your own position. Or continue to prove that you are nothing but an ignorant crybaby. Your choiceET
September 1, 2019
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johnnyb @ 11 -
Having a *how* theory would actually negate ID.
How so? If ID is correct, then the design has to have happened somehow, so a "how" theory has to exist.Bob O'H
September 1, 2019
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Bob O'H @ 15- proves he is proud to be clueless. I doubt Bob even knows what science entails. And if he does it is a given that he cannot show how his side meets that criteria.ET
September 1, 2019
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kf q 9 - is that a yes or a no?Bob O'H
September 1, 2019
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IDvolution is the best explanation.buffalo
September 1, 2019
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Johnnyb, “computer science proceeds just fine without any reference to the mechanism by which humans program computers. Instead, we focus on the semantics of the program, the interfaces, the logical structure, etc.” Agree.PeterA
September 1, 2019
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